Am I the only one who think the Eldrasi cards are stupidly overpowered??? On a green deck, 15 mana is not that hard to get! And for that you get a 15/15, who can't be countered with crazy protection and a guarantee to destroy 6 permanent your opponent control with a potential of killing at least 1 creature or doing 15 damage! That's crazy nuts!!!
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In a green deck, if you have 15 mana, you've most likely already won. For example, Elves can use Staff of Domination with creatures like Elvish Archdruid or Priest of Titania for a lot better than merely taking an extra turn or somewhat.
Especially in standard.... Just imagine combining these Eldrazy with Finest Hour!!!
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More on topic, they're not overpowered, and there are answers to them. In addition, mchief111 is right that if you have that much mana, there are many more broken things you can do than just cast a huge fatty.
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Lorthos count:40 (1 foil) and I will always trade for more...
In a green deck, if you have 15 mana, you've most likely already won. For example, Elves can use Staff of Domination with creatures like Elvish Archdruid or Priest of Titania for a lot better than merely taking an extra turn or somewhat.
Exactly how often do you have 15 mana, again?
As you mentionned they are already some neat elf card to get the mana. But you can also add to that:Greenweaver Druid, Omnath, Locus of Mana... Or other way to get land faster such as Oracle of Mul Daya or use spells to put the 0/1 eldrazi tokens!!! And I'm not even talking about standard or legacy with cards such as: Aetherplasm or Elvish Piper...
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As you mentionned they are already some neat elf card to get the mana. But you can also add to that:Greenweaver Druid, Omnath, Locus of Mana... Or other way to get land faster such as Oracle of Mul Daya or use spells to put the 0/1 eldrazi tokens!!! And I'm not even talking about standard or legacy with cards such as: Aetherplasm or Elvish Piper...
and just as easily as it can be put into play, it can be taken out of play, so whats your point?
and just as easily as it can be put into play, it can be taken out of play, so whats your point?
I disagree, it's not that easy to take him out. He has protection from colors. So black killing spells won't work. Direct damage won't work. Good luck to protect the incoming 15 damages! If he didn't have the protection or the can't be countered ability, that would be ok.. but as it is. seems crazily too powerful
EDH Deck: UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU GW Rhys the RedeemedWG WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
With Elvish Piper, if you can put him out by turn 4 or 5, it's game over. There is no way the opponent can recover.
My friend, I don't believe you have seen much competitive play in any format other than casual. To start off with, nobody uses Elvish Piper. Ever. I'm a hardcore Elf player, and even I recognize just how crappy she is. She's a 1/1 without any form of shroud, regeneration, or other forms of evasion. You're never going to keep an Elvish Piper out on game one when the opponent just assumes she's cannon fodder, let alone your way of Eldrazing the game up.
Also, you don't get the extra turn/draw four cards abilities when you cheat the Eldrazi creatures onto the battlefield. It's only when you cast them, which means that all the other abilities only essentially come into use after they've already had a turn on the field. Day of Judgment decks just look at these things and giggle, as sweep effects like day and Volcanic Fallout can easily wipe out the tokens.
You got a point: you don't get extra turn if you don't pay the hard cost... I actually misread that one.. And indeed Day of Judgement will take care of it, but that one of the few cards which can. All other destroy tgt creature type of spells will be powerless... Granted, Elvish isn't the only way to bring this thing out. And yes without the extra turn, this cards becomes less overcrazypowered. Still anhilator is nasty
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Although I never said WotC was stupid. On the contrary... The impression I got is: each new rescent set is way strong (e.g: lorwyn, alara, and now eldrazy) that the previous ones. Which lead to the point: you can't just sit on your old cards and hope to be competitive. You always have to purchase the newly coming cards... Which is what WotC wants. (note: this note is obviously for friendly games -- for tournament, you have to keep up just because of the format :))
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If you have 15 mana you can also banefire your opponent for 15 and they'll probably be dead. (assuming obviously that you hit them a few times with your llanowar elves etc.
Although I never said WotC was stupid. On the contrary... The impression I got is: each new rescent set is way strong (e.g: lorwyn, alara, and now eldrazy) that the previous ones. Which lead to the point: you can't just sit on your old cards and hope to be competitive. You always have to purchase the newly coming cards... Which is what WotC wants. (note: this note is obviously for friendly games -- for tournament, you have to keep up just because of the format :))
Alara was overpowered because of Jund.
Lorwyn was overpowered because of Faeries
Time Spiral was overpowered because of storm decks and 'Goyf.
Ravnica was overpowered because of the sheer quantity of good cards (along with Bob and the lands)
Kamigawa mostly just failed, and even it had the Top, Glimpse, and Jitte.
Mirrodin was overpowered because it was Mirrodin
Onslaught was overpowered because of Storm
See where I'm going? Almost every single set seems "overpowered" because it has strong themes and cards; however, that's part of the game. We tend to forget that the set before the newest one also had quite a bit to add to the table.
Edit: Oh, and on a previous topic... "Colored spells" does not include activated or triggered abilities, therefore making cards like Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere viable.
If you let your opponent get 15 mana or allow his Piper to survive you should lose anyway. Everything that was mentoined, Mark of Mutiny/Slave of Bolas/etc. those weren't to target the Eldrazi I assume, those would just take out your Piper and thats the end of that.
Full answer- Mana cost is the primary way of balancing cards in magic. And wizards have for at least the last 8 years or so been happy to have crazily expensive cards which practically win the game. After all Tooth and Nail entwined costs 7GG and could fetch out any number of combos which would instantly win the game(kiki + pestermite, Iona + painter's servant etc. etc.), and speaking of Iona, Shield of Emeria it cost 6WWW and in a lot of cases locks your opponent completely out of the game(which is why many UW control decks run it). Inkwell Leviathan costs a heavy 7UU but is next to impossible to deal with(only deathtouch, wrath effects and sacrifice effects). Progenitus costs an insanely hard WWUUBBRRGG but if you get it out the protection from everything means it'll kill in 2 hits most of the time. Paying 10 or 15 for the new eldrazi is just more of the same. They're strong and if you can accelerate into them or trick them into play they'll be great, but that by no means makes them too strong.
I'm a hardcore Elf player, and even I recognize just how crappy she is. She's a 1/1 without any form of shroud, regeneration, or other forms of evasion.
Vines of Vastwood is your friend. Piper will be a big deal soon. Glad I have a playset.
I have to agree with everyone saying that Eldrazi aren't broken. Yes, they are splashy. But none of them cost less than 7. You can count the number of 6 mana or more spells used in std on one hand. Even slower control decks don't likely play six mana spells (UW Control plays none and Grixis Control plays 1-3).
Think about the amazing large spells Shards offers that see no play currently: Ultimatum cycle, large legends, and large creatures. Most of these cards are shard colored, but so are many std decks. If people wanted to play Empyrial Archangel or Megalonoth, there's definitely a deck. However, these cards just aren't good enough, mainly due to their high mana cost.
I think there are two reasons why people are ranting about how "OP" Eldrazi spells are:
1: Eldrazi creatures have spells to help them hit the field faster, like Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple, as well as some help from Everflowing Chalice
2: Eldrazi creatures have big, shiny words like Annihilator. I mean, Annihilator has 11 letters in it! That's more than the word "Affinity", and that was scary too!
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I think there are two reasons why people are ranting about how "OP" Eldrazi spells are:
1: Eldrazi creatures have spells to help them hit the field faster, like Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple, as well as some help from Everflowing Chalice
2: Eldrazi creatures have big, shiny words like Annihilator. I mean, Annihilator has 11 letters in it! That's more than the word "Affinity", and that was scary too!
Beyond Eye and the other Eldrazi land, all these cards are already in std.
In fact, this std has more mana dorks and mana ramping than any other std in years (excluding the brokenness that was Heritage Druid). Compound that with weaker LD, and I feel like we would already have decks abusing all the high-powered cards I listed in my old post if they were viable.
In a green deck, if you have 15 mana, you've most likely already won. For example, Elves can use Staff of Domination with creatures like Elvish Archdruid or Priest of Titania for a lot better than merely taking an extra turn or somewhat.
Exactly how often do you have 15 mana, again?
In my green deck...i see 15 mana by turn 4-5 consistently, its not that hard in a green deck. Its not that terribly difficult to do for green. For other colord...good luck at that. I dont think the eldrazi are overly broken, i think everyone is nutting over the fact that theyre 15/15's. They're pretty dang hard to reanimate because of their triggered colossus ability. In casual they're going to be extremly good, in actual tournaments...theyre going to be extremly bad...as of right now. I cant see the big 3 seeing very much play. Though the big ones that don't get shuffled back in could see some play in extended, it'll be a dedicated deck.
As for sets being broken, since apocalypse or to others onslaught, the powercreep for each set has been slowly going up...which exploded at the end of timespiral/beginning of lorwyn. Onslaught wasn't overly great, theres only a few cards in the set that are being used from it (dragonstorm/tendriles). Mirrodin at the time, to me wasn't all that overly special, it wasn't until a few years after it rotated it really wasn't noted for how good its cards...namely uncommons...were. Creatures for as long as i remember, as a whole, were very crappy. Sure they had a few gems here and there, they weren't that great. While fatties have gotten a noticably better in recent like rampaging baloths but its overall effect hasn't been that noticble. Alot of it is that fatties have been going down in quality for along time. Even though im a lover of fatties, alara's fatties, mainly naya's were pretty bad, atleast they got someone activly trying to make them good.
One thing i really wish they did was make the Lorwyn Giants green instead of red, then a fatty extended deck could be viable (if DDT wasnt the deck to beat).
I think the eldrazi are more of an attempt to woo the younger/casual dinner table crowd than to please the prize chasers while still pleasing the prize chasers...somewhat. Having played during kamigawa, i think that now. I loved the entire set, but kamigawa as a whole was fairly bad but extremly fun to play, draft, sealed, block tournies. Though people say..."but cow, they got jitte, sensei's top, and gifts ungiven??!!" thoes are just 3 cards out of an entire block of 500+ cards. At the same time many overlooked the ascetic value that kamigawa was. Of all sets since and after it, it was one of the most ascetic and thought out blocks. It just didnt have the power that mirrodin and ravnica had. it'd be a set that could do well in the future if they decided to go back to it. I'd perfer it over mirrodin...cuz everytime they come out with a heavy artifact set/block there are always tons of balancing issues that nevber got adressed. The eldrazi are good but not too good because you're not getting free 4/4's. Or more recently...dealing 4 damage, followed by a 3/2 haste, followed by a deal 3 damage and discard 2 for 5mana...
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If you see someone playing a control deck, the following strategy is considered acceptable: 1) Slowly reach upward 2) Grab your opponent firmly by the throat 3) Squeeze 4) ???? 5) Profit...and a fountain of red Kool Aid!!!
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UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
Exactly how often do you have 15 mana, again?
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UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
More on topic, they're not overpowered, and there are answers to them. In addition, mchief111 is right that if you have that much mana, there are many more broken things you can do than just cast a huge fatty.
Commander:
URG Animar, Soul of Elements: Fatty Parade (M)
BR Wort, Boggart Auntie: Suddenly Goblins! (D)
As you mentionned they are already some neat elf card to get the mana. But you can also add to that:Greenweaver Druid, Omnath, Locus of Mana... Or other way to get land faster such as Oracle of Mul Daya or use spells to put the 0/1 eldrazi tokens!!! And I'm not even talking about standard or legacy with cards such as: Aetherplasm or Elvish Piper...
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
and just as easily as it can be put into play, it can be taken out of play, so whats your point?
I disagree, it's not that easy to take him out. He has protection from colors. So black killing spells won't work. Direct damage won't work. Good luck to protect the incoming 15 damages! If he didn't have the protection or the can't be countered ability, that would be ok.. but as it is. seems crazily too powerful
Double-post merged.
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
My friend, I don't believe you have seen much competitive play in any format other than casual. To start off with, nobody uses Elvish Piper. Ever. I'm a hardcore Elf player, and even I recognize just how crappy she is. She's a 1/1 without any form of shroud, regeneration, or other forms of evasion. You're never going to keep an Elvish Piper out on game one when the opponent just assumes she's cannon fodder, let alone your way of Eldrazing the game up.
Also, you don't get the extra turn/draw four cards abilities when you cheat the Eldrazi creatures onto the battlefield. It's only when you cast them, which means that all the other abilities only essentially come into use after they've already had a turn on the field. Day of Judgment decks just look at these things and giggle, as sweep effects like day and Volcanic Fallout can easily wipe out the tokens.
Trust me, WotC isn't stupid.
The candles burn out for you; I am free.
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
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UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
Which is why they never printed cards like Day of Judgement, Clone, Mark of Mutiny, Slave of Bolas, Capricious Efreet, Rite of Replication, Planar Cleansing, and Admonition Angel. And that is off the top of my head.
:LEGACY:
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Alara was overpowered because of Jund.
Lorwyn was overpowered because of Faeries
Time Spiral was overpowered because of storm decks and 'Goyf.
Ravnica was overpowered because of the sheer quantity of good cards (along with Bob and the lands)
Kamigawa mostly just failed, and even it had the Top, Glimpse, and Jitte.
Mirrodin was overpowered because it was Mirrodin
Onslaught was overpowered because of Storm
See where I'm going? Almost every single set seems "overpowered" because it has strong themes and cards; however, that's part of the game. We tend to forget that the set before the newest one also had quite a bit to add to the table.
Edit: Oh, and on a previous topic... "Colored spells" does not include activated or triggered abilities, therefore making cards like Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere viable.
The candles burn out for you; I am free.
Well he is immune to Mark of Mutiny, Slave of Bolas, Rite of Replication. If it gets cheated into play turn 4 or 5, Admonition Angel won't be able to be played and have a landfall without some form of accell. Capricious Efreet also costs 6, makes you wait until your next upkeep, and then only has a 1 in 3 chance of destroying it. Planar Cleansing doesn't come out until turn 6.
Win-more decks usually don't win.
Full answer- Mana cost is the primary way of balancing cards in magic. And wizards have for at least the last 8 years or so been happy to have crazily expensive cards which practically win the game. After all Tooth and Nail entwined costs 7GG and could fetch out any number of combos which would instantly win the game(kiki + pestermite, Iona + painter's servant etc. etc.), and speaking of Iona, Shield of Emeria it cost 6WWW and in a lot of cases locks your opponent completely out of the game(which is why many UW control decks run it). Inkwell Leviathan costs a heavy 7UU but is next to impossible to deal with(only deathtouch, wrath effects and sacrifice effects). Progenitus costs an insanely hard WWUUBBRRGG but if you get it out the protection from everything means it'll kill in 2 hits most of the time. Paying 10 or 15 for the new eldrazi is just more of the same. They're strong and if you can accelerate into them or trick them into play they'll be great, but that by no means makes them too strong.
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Vines of Vastwood is your friend. Piper will be a big deal soon. Glad I have a playset.
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Think about the amazing large spells Shards offers that see no play currently: Ultimatum cycle, large legends, and large creatures. Most of these cards are shard colored, but so are many std decks. If people wanted to play Empyrial Archangel or Megalonoth, there's definitely a deck. However, these cards just aren't good enough, mainly due to their high mana cost.
//gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=0&action=advanced&sort=color+&format=%7C[%22Standard%22">&cmc=+%3E=[6]&rarity=+[R]%7C"]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=0&action=advanced&sort=color+&format=|[%22Standard%22]&cmc=+%3E=[6]&rarity=+[R]|[M]
Note all the good cards just not seeing play. So, no, I don't think Eldrazi are too strong.
"Can you apply the penal code to demons?"
1: Eldrazi creatures have spells to help them hit the field faster, like Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple, as well as some help from Everflowing Chalice
2: Eldrazi creatures have big, shiny words like Annihilator. I mean, Annihilator has 11 letters in it! That's more than the word "Affinity", and that was scary too!
Proud to be a Christ follower!
Here's a few reasons:
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Beyond Eye and the other Eldrazi land, all these cards are already in std.
In fact, this std has more mana dorks and mana ramping than any other std in years (excluding the brokenness that was Heritage Druid). Compound that with weaker LD, and I feel like we would already have decks abusing all the high-powered cards I listed in my old post if they were viable.
"Can you apply the penal code to demons?"
In my green deck...i see 15 mana by turn 4-5 consistently, its not that hard in a green deck. Its not that terribly difficult to do for green. For other colord...good luck at that. I dont think the eldrazi are overly broken, i think everyone is nutting over the fact that theyre 15/15's. They're pretty dang hard to reanimate because of their triggered colossus ability. In casual they're going to be extremly good, in actual tournaments...theyre going to be extremly bad...as of right now. I cant see the big 3 seeing very much play. Though the big ones that don't get shuffled back in could see some play in extended, it'll be a dedicated deck.
As for sets being broken, since apocalypse or to others onslaught, the powercreep for each set has been slowly going up...which exploded at the end of timespiral/beginning of lorwyn. Onslaught wasn't overly great, theres only a few cards in the set that are being used from it (dragonstorm/tendriles). Mirrodin at the time, to me wasn't all that overly special, it wasn't until a few years after it rotated it really wasn't noted for how good its cards...namely uncommons...were. Creatures for as long as i remember, as a whole, were very crappy. Sure they had a few gems here and there, they weren't that great. While fatties have gotten a noticably better in recent like rampaging baloths but its overall effect hasn't been that noticble. Alot of it is that fatties have been going down in quality for along time. Even though im a lover of fatties, alara's fatties, mainly naya's were pretty bad, atleast they got someone activly trying to make them good.
One thing i really wish they did was make the Lorwyn Giants green instead of red, then a fatty extended deck could be viable (if DDT wasnt the deck to beat).
I think the eldrazi are more of an attempt to woo the younger/casual dinner table crowd than to please the prize chasers while still pleasing the prize chasers...somewhat. Having played during kamigawa, i think that now. I loved the entire set, but kamigawa as a whole was fairly bad but extremly fun to play, draft, sealed, block tournies. Though people say..."but cow, they got jitte, sensei's top, and gifts ungiven??!!" thoes are just 3 cards out of an entire block of 500+ cards. At the same time many overlooked the ascetic value that kamigawa was. Of all sets since and after it, it was one of the most ascetic and thought out blocks. It just didnt have the power that mirrodin and ravnica had. it'd be a set that could do well in the future if they decided to go back to it. I'd perfer it over mirrodin...cuz everytime they come out with a heavy artifact set/block there are always tons of balancing issues that nevber got adressed. The eldrazi are good but not too good because you're not getting free 4/4's. Or more recently...dealing 4 damage, followed by a 3/2 haste, followed by a deal 3 damage and discard 2 for 5mana...
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