It's playable in Limited as is. It's a Grey Ogre. Blocking is more or less irrelevant, and if you're playing limited with black you're gonna have vampires anyway.
Listen, let's not bring that up. People on this forum are so fond of the word "strictly" that they don't like to think about random scenarios.
-E
Aye, but I like thinking up (and occasionally even making!) Johnny decks that are so out of this world that nobody could even begin to comprehend their awesomeness.
E.g: Casting a Lure-style effect on your opponents creature. Normally not that good of an idea, but a deck with stuff like Goldenglow Moth and similiar abilities might work out somewhat well. Death Baron and Wall of Bone both worked out amazingly for my past Zombie deck (burn ftl, aye!). If you want your opponent to attack, this card is something of a safe haven from if they pump up their attacking creatures more than you can handle.
That's just one example (recap: decks that punish your opponent for attacking- Contaminated Bond, Nettling Curse). I'm sure people other than me could think of way better ways!
Edit: I just read your post Atobe, that's another good reason too
Where Black is apparently the new White for beatdown? The one with uncommon 2/3 flying lifelink three-drops... and the ability I'm not mentioning is deathtouch? That Black?
You have no reason to ever run this. Over anything.
If it's a Grey Ogre that can't even die for me, I'll play any spell over it. Even if it just confuses my opponents.
I'd maybe run the Null over Quest for Ancient Secrets. Maybe.
Don't make me mention landfall.
Bad cards exist. Deal with it.
This is still good advice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Epic banner by Erasmus of æтђєг.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
This card has a relevant creature type, doesn't die to grappling hook... It's still terrible though, but although it's worse than, say, Spiderwig Boggart, it's still amazing we've come pretty far if a card like this is the worst card in the set (compare to Hostile Realm).
The reason people loathe this card isn't because it sucks. That's part of it, but a lot of the anger lies in the fact that Scathe Zombies was such a bad card that it wasnt even good enough for M10, yet they end up printing a card strictly worse than Scathe Zombies in Zendikar.
Actually, part of the reason we needed Warpath Ghoul in M10 was if you ever drafted mono black. Without it, you'd have trouble getting your hands on enough creatures with more than 2 power to make all your removal and Sign in Blood help you win. Otherwise, you can easily get screwed over by Hill Giants. It and Zombie Goliath are its only commons with more than 2 power. In Zendikar, black has Bog Tatters, Crypt Ripper, Hagra Crocodile, and Nimana Sell-sword.
This card is very easy to understand, making the majority of the community understand this card is just utter ****!
I think we're angry cause it insults our intelligence it's so bad. Where's the strategic value? Passing your opponent a bad card in limited? Or perhaps using an effect to pass it to your opponent to win by humiliation?
It's just sad to see such an un-fun card in a pretty neat set.
Despite being just a common, it is a card that represents careless design and oversight. At least it's not a rare, but it does set a new low for poor design.
I mean, directly compare Mindless Null to Stonework Puma. The former is at best a Gray Ogre, and the other is a non-color dependent Ogre that also triggers Ally effects. Both are in the same set and at the same rarity, but the artifact creature is better in every way. It's not the end of the world, but it is just pathetic, simple fact.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Aye, but I like thinking up (and occasionally even making!) Johnny decks that are so out of this world that nobody could even begin to comprehend their awesomeness.
E.g: Casting a Lure-style effect on your opponents creature. Normally not that good of an idea, but a deck with stuff like Goldenglow Moth and similiar abilities might work out somewhat well. Death Baron and Wall of Bone both worked out amazingly for my past Zombie deck (burn ftl, aye!). If you want your opponent to attack, this card is something of a safe haven from if they pump up their attacking creatures more than you can handle.
That's just one example (recap: decks that punish your opponent for attacking- Contaminated Bond, Nettling Curse). I'm sure people other than me could think of way better ways!
Edit: I just read your post Atobe, that's another good reason too
It could also show up in Legacy decks packing Donate.
It's pretty bad, but frankly the difference between terrible cards and most ordinary cards is irrelevant to me. If it's not constructed playable (whether Standard, Extended or multiplayer) and it's not something I would want to play in a draft deck (assuming it is a pack opened for Limited) then I do not care.
I get why people hate it, but people are arguing over it so fiercely, that one would think it's the only card in the set. As was already pointed out, black does not need another aggressively costed beatstick for limited.
Also, why be mad about the reason Mindless Null got to be so bad? It would worry me if the killed a really interesting rare by upping the cost on accident like that. This however? At 1B the Null still wouldn't have been interesting, though definitely more playable in limited.
Meh, a classic case of "much ado about nothing" if you ask me...
It irritates me for some reason that it's just strictly worse (without silly stuff) than Scathe Zombies. If they just made it a *bit* different...a 2/3, fear, an Ally, whatever...just to make it *different* from Scathe Zombies in some way. That's what's bothering me about the card. Hell, give it Landfall - target creature nonblack can't block...whatever, SOMETHING.
But I'll just erase the Null from my memory....
UPDATE Memory SET name = NULL where name = 'Mindless Null'
Do you really think that no one at R&D thought of the fact that it is strictly inferior to Scathe Zombies?
part of the reason people are upset is because we know they knew it was bad.
the "elegance" of the card could have been retained while lowering the cost by 1. the card has a cool flavor and we can appreciate it, but we would have appreciated it even more if it were better executed.
It's weird to see people tear into a random common, when 70-90% of new cards will never see play in competitive constructed.
If you think about mindless null in limited, it makes sense. I know people use that as a catch-all answer, but here it actually applies.
Unlike M10, it is pretty rough to find 23 playables in zendikar. Sure, if you go heavy into landfall, you can make an 18 land deck... but even still. A lot of colors are pretty shallow.
Red and black got a bunch of great cards for limited. Mindless null for 1b would give black another playable, which is unfair to people trying to stick it out in white.
I'd rather they'd just not printed the null, and made a borderline-playable white card to draft. In addition to stonework puma, white could really use a grey ogre or hill giant in draft.
So yeah, Mindless Null is lame. But I would rather see that than see black get gravedigger or something in Zen. (If I'm drafting against black.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
That's not the impression I got from ElricJC's statement. The statement I responded to. Since you have a problem with my response I must wonder whether you agree with the statement I quoted. If you do, then how can it be an oversight when you assume they knew what they were doing?
If you don't, then why do you compelled to answer?
The set has already two common creatures for :1mana::symb:.
Further the flavor expands to the mana cost for the reason I explained. I don't recall nostalgic feelings for a 2/2 Zombie at :1mana::symb: (Well, Whipstitched Zombie has a special place in my heart, but I doubt many people share that sentiment).
I repeat: The card works because Scathe Zombies are so famous and even iconic. At two mana the reference is simply not there any longer.
greetings
Z
You are ignoring the fact that the card has been called the product of a typo by the man who designed it. It fell through the cracks and then they left it there. What don't you get about that?
You are ignoring the fact that the card has been called the product of a typo by the man who designed it. It fell through the cracks and then they left it there. What don't you get about that?
You people act like Mark Rosewater's mana costs are set in stone. It's development's job to take the mana cost of every card into consideration within the context of both the set (for constructed and limited) and the game (for considerations of power creep). Making a worse card than a baseline card does nothing but set the tone for the limited environment of that set. Making a better card than a baseline card raises player expectations concerning what needs to happen in every future set (you can see the fruits of this happening when people cite Warpath Ghoul.
It's Mark Rosewater's job to generate ideas that are consistent with the philosophy of each color and each set and the game as a whole. That's it. He (and others) make suggestions, they get tweaked by development. Quoting what Mark Rosewater costed a card at shows a complete ignorance of the process of the way Magic R&D works. It's neither a single-person job, nor something that happens through blind ignorance. And you can see the fruits of Rosewater's single-person development experience in the broken-to-hell set Urza's Destiny, which he cites himself as a mistake constantly.
(And before someone brings up mistakes like Skullclamp, let's assume this was a mistake - I'd rather them make mistakes downward than upward - that is, I'd rather they make "accidentally" crappy cards than "accidentally" phenomenal, format-breaking cards.)
You are ignoring the fact that the card has been called the product of a typo by the man who designed it. It fell through the cracks and then they left it there. What don't you get about that?
If this is true and it was just a mistake that fell through the cracks why not post an errata on the card stating that actualy only costs B1?
Mindless Null is a bag of mashed up intestines regurgitated and fed into the mouth of a sickly guy who threw it up into a garbage can. Anyone who thinks this guy is seriously arguing otherwise should rethink it.
I'd say lock this thread if I wasn't such a fan of trolls.
If this is true and it was just a mistake that fell through the cracks why not post an errata on the card stating that actualy only costs B1?
Because they don't do that?
It would set a terrible precident, not only for making bad cards good but for good cards bad. Instead of Skullclamp drawing cards, maybe it would be changed to milling cards. Would you want to see all the cards you like playing with degenerate or change because someone complained about them?
Not to mention, they do like cards to actually do what they say they do. Would you like to carry around a big book of different card rulings with you, everywhere you go? Have to explain to your opponent every time "Look, I know it says 2B, but they changed it to 1B, I swear!"
I really don't get what the big deal about this card is. It's not even the worst Grey Ogre they've ever printed, much less the worst card in the set...
I actually don't understand the hate for this card. There have been cards in EVERY SINGLE SET that are ****ing terrible. Like really really bad. But people see them, think "Yeah I'm not playing that" and then move on. This card for some reason causes deep wells of rage to rise up and explode.
Takeno's Cavalry. Hostile Realm. Pale Moon. The laces. Wood Elemental. Break Open. One With Nothing.
Half of those are RARE.
Now the two reasons people have for hating this card are a) "It was a typo they refused to fix!" or b) "Its strictly worse than scathe zombies and THAT card wasnt good enough for the core set".
Regarding A first. No card gets printed as a mistake. Except Clamp. And I still doubt that one. I bet the bastards are just trying to cover there asses. Cards get passed of from design (MaRo) to development (not MaRo). There costs change. Its a known fact that designers OFTEN miscost cards. Either overcosting bad effects, or undercosting good ones. Cards change mana cost all the time.
Even if this cards original change in manacost was because of a typo, its not like development never found out. MaRo told them about it, that he thought it was better at 1b. And they responded by saying "Your wrong. We like it better this way."
Their reasons for that, I can only assume, since no one has bothered trying to explain that. Possible reasons are:
Black was too good in draft/sealed. A 1b 2/2 with that drawback would make it better.
A card called mindless null being good is silly.
A card called mindless null being terrible is kind of funny.
A stupid zombie is also funny.
A bad gray ogre never made a set bad. An unbalanced draft format can easily ruin a set.
A for reason B, the only reason they made scathe zombies a 3/2 was because they needed black to be better in limited. Black only has 2 commons with power over 2 in limited, and the ghoul is one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if in some sealed set where black has better other creatures if the zombies return.
Or even mindless null. If only to piss you all off again :D.
It would set a terrible precident, not only for making bad cards good but for good cards bad. Instead of Skullclamp drawing cards, maybe it would be changed to milling cards. Would you want to see all the cards you like playing with degenerate or change because someone complained about them?
Not to mention, they do like cards to actually do what they say they do. Would you like to carry around a big book of different card rulings with you, everywhere you go? Have to explain to your opponent every time "Look, I know it says 2B, but they changed it to 1B, I swear!"
I really don't get what the big deal about this card is. It's not even the worst Grey Ogre they've ever printed, much less the worst card in the set...
Actually. I looked pretty hard. There are worse 2/2s, but not that cost 2C. He actually is the worst grey ogre ever.
So?
Hes still a ****ing common.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a great guy if you don't mind the swearing"
"If I meant everything I said, I'd be a total *******"
Humour:
Quote from Conical Object »
In Soviet Russia, deck play you!
Quote from Me »
I think that that undefined would be the perfect power for the flying spaghetti monster.
Player A: "I hit you for an undefined amount of damage."
Player B: "I shock FSM."
Player A: "Does it do undefined damage?"
Player B: "No."
Player A: "Then it doesn't die. Take your damage *****!"
Player B: "How?"
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Listen, let's not bring that up. People on this forum are so fond of the word "strictly" that they don't like to think about random scenarios.
-E
[SIZE=4]Thanks to LadyValkrie for this Awesome Banner!
My friends say I'm very limited.
It's playable in Limited as is. It's a Grey Ogre. Blocking is more or less irrelevant, and if you're playing limited with black you're gonna have vampires anyway.
Bad cards exist. Deal with it.
Netdecking is Rightdecking
My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
(TLDR: Analysis of the Valakut matchups. UB rising in the rankings. Aggro correspondingly taking a dive.)
Aye, but I like thinking up (and occasionally even making!) Johnny decks that are so out of this world that nobody could even begin to comprehend their awesomeness.
E.g: Casting a Lure-style effect on your opponents creature. Normally not that good of an idea, but a deck with stuff like Goldenglow Moth and similiar abilities might work out somewhat well. Death Baron and Wall of Bone both worked out amazingly for my past Zombie deck (burn ftl, aye!). If you want your opponent to attack, this card is something of a safe haven from if they pump up their attacking creatures more than you can handle.
That's just one example (recap: decks that punish your opponent for attacking- Contaminated Bond, Nettling Curse). I'm sure people other than me could think of way better ways!
Edit: I just read your post Atobe, that's another good reason too
The candles burn out for you; I am free.
N- no, it's not playable. Not in ZEN.
Where Black is apparently the new White for beatdown? The one with uncommon 2/3 flying lifelink three-drops... and the ability I'm not mentioning is deathtouch? That Black?
You have no reason to ever run this. Over anything.
If it's a Grey Ogre that can't even die for me, I'll play any spell over it. Even if it just confuses my opponents.
I'd maybe run the Null over Quest for Ancient Secrets. Maybe.
Don't make me mention landfall.
This is still good advice.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Actually, part of the reason we needed Warpath Ghoul in M10 was if you ever drafted mono black. Without it, you'd have trouble getting your hands on enough creatures with more than 2 power to make all your removal and Sign in Blood help you win. Otherwise, you can easily get screwed over by Hill Giants. It and Zombie Goliath are its only commons with more than 2 power. In Zendikar, black has Bog Tatters, Crypt Ripper, Hagra Crocodile, and Nimana Sell-sword.
People are dealing with it by expressing feelings and complaning about the horrid design that was made with 20 years of experience.
I think we're angry cause it insults our intelligence it's so bad. Where's the strategic value? Passing your opponent a bad card in limited? Or perhaps using an effect to pass it to your opponent to win by humiliation?
It's just sad to see such an un-fun card in a pretty neat set.
I mean, directly compare Mindless Null to Stonework Puma. The former is at best a Gray Ogre, and the other is a non-color dependent Ogre that also triggers Ally effects. Both are in the same set and at the same rarity, but the artifact creature is better in every way. It's not the end of the world, but it is just pathetic, simple fact.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
I can't wait for the inevitable ******* to say something about artifact removal here.
It's a grizzly bears (Already a meh card) that costs more and has a drawback.
What's to like? :/
Sign up for League of Legends!
It could also show up in Legacy decks packing Donate.
-E
Also, why be mad about the reason Mindless Null got to be so bad? It would worry me if the killed a really interesting rare by upping the cost on accident like that. This however? At 1B the Null still wouldn't have been interesting, though definitely more playable in limited.
Meh, a classic case of "much ado about nothing" if you ask me...
But I'll just erase the Null from my memory....
UPDATE Memory SET name = NULL where name = 'Mindless Null'
Problem solved!
Casual Commander player.
Check this Magic Shop to buy singles and cards online in Europe!
part of the reason people are upset is because we know they knew it was bad.
the "elegance" of the card could have been retained while lowering the cost by 1. the card has a cool flavor and we can appreciate it, but we would have appreciated it even more if it were better executed.
If you think about mindless null in limited, it makes sense. I know people use that as a catch-all answer, but here it actually applies.
Unlike M10, it is pretty rough to find 23 playables in zendikar. Sure, if you go heavy into landfall, you can make an 18 land deck... but even still. A lot of colors are pretty shallow.
Red and black got a bunch of great cards for limited. Mindless null for 1b would give black another playable, which is unfair to people trying to stick it out in white.
I'd rather they'd just not printed the null, and made a borderline-playable white card to draft. In addition to stonework puma, white could really use a grey ogre or hill giant in draft.
So yeah, Mindless Null is lame. But I would rather see that than see black get gravedigger or something in Zen. (If I'm drafting against black.)
You are ignoring the fact that the card has been called the product of a typo by the man who designed it. It fell through the cracks and then they left it there. What don't you get about that?
You people act like Mark Rosewater's mana costs are set in stone. It's development's job to take the mana cost of every card into consideration within the context of both the set (for constructed and limited) and the game (for considerations of power creep). Making a worse card than a baseline card does nothing but set the tone for the limited environment of that set. Making a better card than a baseline card raises player expectations concerning what needs to happen in every future set (you can see the fruits of this happening when people cite Warpath Ghoul.
It's Mark Rosewater's job to generate ideas that are consistent with the philosophy of each color and each set and the game as a whole. That's it. He (and others) make suggestions, they get tweaked by development. Quoting what Mark Rosewater costed a card at shows a complete ignorance of the process of the way Magic R&D works. It's neither a single-person job, nor something that happens through blind ignorance. And you can see the fruits of Rosewater's single-person development experience in the broken-to-hell set Urza's Destiny, which he cites himself as a mistake constantly.
(And before someone brings up mistakes like Skullclamp, let's assume this was a mistake - I'd rather them make mistakes downward than upward - that is, I'd rather they make "accidentally" crappy cards than "accidentally" phenomenal, format-breaking cards.)
-E
If this is true and it was just a mistake that fell through the cracks why not post an errata on the card stating that actualy only costs B1?
No?
Successful troll succeeds.
Mindless Null is a bag of mashed up intestines regurgitated and fed into the mouth of a sickly guy who threw it up into a garbage can. Anyone who thinks this guy is seriously arguing otherwise should rethink it.
I'd say lock this thread if I wasn't such a fan of trolls.
Sig by XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios
Because they don't do that?
It would set a terrible precident, not only for making bad cards good but for good cards bad. Instead of Skullclamp drawing cards, maybe it would be changed to milling cards. Would you want to see all the cards you like playing with degenerate or change because someone complained about them?
Not to mention, they do like cards to actually do what they say they do. Would you like to carry around a big book of different card rulings with you, everywhere you go? Have to explain to your opponent every time "Look, I know it says 2B, but they changed it to 1B, I swear!"
I really don't get what the big deal about this card is. It's not even the worst Grey Ogre they've ever printed, much less the worst card in the set...
Well, not really.
I actually don't understand the hate for this card. There have been cards in EVERY SINGLE SET that are ****ing terrible. Like really really bad. But people see them, think "Yeah I'm not playing that" and then move on. This card for some reason causes deep wells of rage to rise up and explode.
Takeno's Cavalry. Hostile Realm. Pale Moon. The laces. Wood Elemental. Break Open. One With Nothing.
Half of those are RARE.
Now the two reasons people have for hating this card are a) "It was a typo they refused to fix!" or b) "Its strictly worse than scathe zombies and THAT card wasnt good enough for the core set".
Regarding A first. No card gets printed as a mistake. Except Clamp. And I still doubt that one. I bet the bastards are just trying to cover there asses. Cards get passed of from design (MaRo) to development (not MaRo). There costs change. Its a known fact that designers OFTEN miscost cards. Either overcosting bad effects, or undercosting good ones. Cards change mana cost all the time.
Even if this cards original change in manacost was because of a typo, its not like development never found out. MaRo told them about it, that he thought it was better at 1b. And they responded by saying "Your wrong. We like it better this way."
Their reasons for that, I can only assume, since no one has bothered trying to explain that. Possible reasons are:
Black was too good in draft/sealed. A 1b 2/2 with that drawback would make it better.
A card called mindless null being good is silly.
A card called mindless null being terrible is kind of funny.
A stupid zombie is also funny.
A bad gray ogre never made a set bad. An unbalanced draft format can easily ruin a set.
A for reason B, the only reason they made scathe zombies a 3/2 was because they needed black to be better in limited. Black only has 2 commons with power over 2 in limited, and the ghoul is one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if in some sealed set where black has better other creatures if the zombies return.
Or even mindless null. If only to piss you all off again :D.
Actually. I looked pretty hard. There are worse 2/2s, but not that cost 2C. He actually is the worst grey ogre ever.
So?
Hes still a ****ing common.
Humour: