For those who don't know, Mindless Nell is this:
Mindless Nell 2B
Creature - Zombie C
Mindless Nell can't block unless you have a vampire.
~ decent flavor text explaining that this is the same kind of "zombie" as in that Blade movie~
2/2
Functionally worse than both Scathe Zombie and M2010's replacement there of. Also functionally worse than the 2/2 ally artifact for 3.
I chatted briefly with Mark Rosewater at the Seattle regional prerelease, and asked him about Mindless Null. He wants it to be known that he is not to blame for the card. His story, in brief:
Design handed it over at 1B. The person who typed the set up for development made a typo and it went in at 2B. MaRo made many attempts to kill the card, all failed. The developers liked it. It was printed over his objections.
Now, I'm okay with accidents. Skull Clamp was an accident, WOTC (hopefully) learned from it. But this was no accident. Someone made a typo, sure, but the dip***** in development were, apparently CONSTANLY PETITIONED By MARO to remove this card, and/or fix the typo (we can assume).
The card as MARO designed it (costing 1B) would have been an excellent limited card with FANTASTIC flavor. As it got through development, whatever flavor it has is drowned out by it being a waste of paper, quite literally.
So, here's the question: Should WOTC fire the members of the development team who facilitated the printing of this bastard. If we believe Maro, they had many opportunities to CATCH what's wrong with this POS, EVEN IF they've never played a game of magic in their life. Now, make no mistake, they'll come out with excuses. And they'll probably apologize for allys and (development's) traps sooner or later. Time heals all wounds, assuming your wounds don't kill you before they heal. But this seems to be a reprehensible act. Here we have a typo, a doubly functionally worse card than something that came out earlier this year and sees no serious play, and EVERY OPPORTUNITY to fix the typo to make it one of the best "flavor" and "limited" cards in the set. And they didn't do it. Not once. Not twice. Not over a long weekend where they were all tired and drunk after making up traps. Not the next morning on thier hangovers when they made up allys, and forgot that although allys have almost the exact same wording as LANDFALL, something the DESIGN team came up with, they shouldn't ability word allys. No. After numberous attempts, these dip***** constantly and consistently failed to do their jobs. I"m so disgusted I'm seriously thinking about getting out of magic. Afterall, if they can ruin as set w/ Fetchlands AND an awesome mechanic like landfall, god knows what they'll do to manlands or anything else in the future.
This just in: Zendikar Development team goes "old school" by giving us Goblin King and Mons Goblin Raiders in the m2011. They've also printed the following card:
Goblin of Kher Keep (R)
Creature - Goblin C
~ text about how goblins took over kher keep because I figure someone at WOTC actually played magic at one time.~
0/1
That's right kiddies - it combos with Goblin Grenade* (* not reprinted in M2011).
This is a lot of b****ing and moaning about a common.
It's symptomatic of 3 much deeper problems in WOTC's set designing scheme:
1) Too many cooks spoils the meal.
2) During development, when in doubt, add (1)-(2) colorless mana. Then playtesting's NOT required.
3) "The game needs bad cards".
This is an instance of 1-3.
Now, with Chimney Imp, at least his ability was "new"... it was crap, but there was a few potential combos with him (you know, if he didn't suck and the game wasn't over by turn 3 in Mirrodin block, thanks to more WOTC mistakes in lack of playtesting, FYI). So if you're okay with bad cards, maybe you just need all bad cards to do something unique or interesting. But this doesn't even do that! It doesn't even have a unique creature type to look at gawkingly, or another card that makes it less bad (say an uncommon 2/1 vampire for BB who lets you tutor for a Mindless Null and put him into play for free). No, it's a bad, bad card.
In light of Maro's comments, even he REALIZES that (1) is true (too many cooks really do **** up a set, it seems), and he's been on record, I think, of saying "The game needs bad cards" - despite the fact that he clearly thinks this bad card, although FAR more flavorful in every way except mana cost than old "bad cards" should have been killed.
The reason why we focus on Mindless Nell is because 75% of this set is utter jank in one way or another. Allys might be competative, but have too much text and no ability wording (again, despite having ALMOST EXACTLY the SAME TEXT as Landfall abilities - in the SAME GOD DAMNED SET). Now some people like the allys. Some people hate ability words (I do, actually). Some people like to watch as people open bad cards (the word for them is "*******s" I believe.). But 95% of the magic community who pays attention long enough to Mindless Nell, specifically what happened during development, OUGHT to be enraged. There's no justification for it.
And so while you can fool some of the people most of the time, and most of the people some of the time, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Mindless Null is evidence of this. And it's important to note that WOTC isn't foolproof, and makes ******** stupid mistakes even when given EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO FIX THEM. Because when you take off the rose colored glasses for just a moment, you'll notice that the game you love is in the hands of a the zendikar development team, and you should be ****ing afraid.
I saw a polling option that had the word 'boobs' in it and picked that one?
Seriously, while I understand where you're coming from, I think that you're overreacting somewhat. People make mistakes, it's only one card.
Alright alright, actually the set as a whole is terrible IMO, but that's another topic.
I've never been in love with the 'every set needs bad cards' notion. I agree that some cards will only be good in some environments/appeal to some players. But I disagree with the notion that they should willfully print cards that are simply terrible by every stretch of the imagination. Alot of good examples of this were provided earlier, referencing cards like One With Nothing, or my personal favorite 'superterriblewhatweretheythinking' pile of crap, Numai Outcast. I mean honestly, that card is just..wow bad. I just don't see the need to print these? Cards that are good in Limited but not Constructed? Okay. Cards that are fun for casual but that's all? Okay. Even cards that are only good in multiplayer I can(begrudgingly, since Magic is really supposed to be a 1v1 game) accept. But cards like the one this thread is about should never see the light of day.
I'm confused about how MaRo could have notified them of this and nothing happened. Maybe the other developers are just really confused. I'm just a Magic player, but even I know that Mark Rosewater is a god among mortals as far as Magic goes. I guess the rest of the Development Team didn't get the memo. Or they're just jealous of his celebrity status, and don't realize that he earned it by A)actually talking to people and not hiding out in the basement of the WotC building and B)by not ignoring people when they point out things like 'that card is supposed to cost 1B, not 2B'.
I do agree that the development teams have grown too large, and that Allies and Landfall are effectively the same mechanic, just involving two different types of permanents. But, as I've said many times now, Magic is just about permanents now. YuGiOh players are all about permanents, and Magic is trying to steal them all...so now Magic loves permanents.
Too bad I love spells :sadpanda:
@monopoman: I don't remember any such statements re: Lorwyn. Just..every set since, until Alara Reborn, which is honestly really good. And to be fair, they're all accurate assessments, the last few years of Magic sets have been awful. Time Spiral block wasn't actually that good either, though by comparison now it looks phenomenal.
When was the last time 75% of a set wasn't jank? I mean seriously as time goes on people gloss over the bad cards and just remember the good ones.
I heard the same whining when Lorwyn came out now people regard it as one of the most powerful sets ever made.
Especially if your only looking at cards that help existing decks if landfall makes it into a competitive deck of its own and a few more decks arise this will be a pretty damn good set overall.
But of course one bad common and oh noes lets all cry about it at least its not a rare like mudhole or moonlace.
People have alot of time and money invested in Magic, they have the right to complain about it, without some tool saying 'derfderf just quit then'.
One With Nothing is a card that, while as terrible as possible, a person gets a little slack on..he was obviously trying to go somewhere with the card, the execution just failed utterly. But this scenario, where a development team was notified of a typo in the CMC of the card and was just too lazy to fix it, is not really acceptable. I don't think anyone should get fired, but it shouldn't happen again.
I saw a polling option that had the word 'boobs' in it and picked that one?
You sir, win the thread.
And I do see where the op is coming from but I don't it is a big deal. Some cards fail and some people fail and others just brain fart. I do however appreciate the design team's effort on the set as a whole. I mean have you looked at the art for this set. It got me excited about the game like when I first started playing with ravnica.
The people who should be fired are the ones responsible for the old cards in ZEN boosters...:facepalm: I hate the idea more each minute.
There's nothing wrong with BAD commons... don't you see even WotC admits they make cards worse than they could be in purpose in order to slow down the speed of Limited? I think it brilliantly adds balance to the set. The designers are professionals, with them there'd be no game. Quit whining (just kidding.:D Voice your opinions all you like, it's just a saying)...
I mean, it's a freaking 2/2 for 3 mana! Not a 4/2 for 6! Just do what I do: don't play it. Stick to the good cards in the set...
If you don't like it [your car], stop driving.
If you don't like it [the tax system], stop paying your taxes.
If you don't like it [the taste of your medicine], stop taking your meds.
You see how your logic is that of a [profanity removed because I don't think it's strong enough]? No offense, but it seems that you're just not willing to look at things critically, and would rather throw stones at the person who is telling you that your glass house will break if you throw stones from inside it...
Yeah. Because if I can read "Scathe Zombies" and put down "reprint", that automatically means I can make a better card game. Wait, no, that just means I can make a better card. And, again, your logic is flawed.
I want WOTC to make the best product ever. I don't want to make my own custom magic cards, or magicesque set, that noone would play for several years and would hurt a card game which I still think is fun, even if WOTC makes mistakes.
Maybe you don't make mistakes at work, but that's because you are perfect.
When my boss points out the very thing I did wrong a dozen times in a row, and tells me how to fix it every time (cut the cost by 1 or kill the card), and I don't do it - I damned well deserve to be fired. Being told twice would probably be grounds for serious disciplanary action.
Look at the set from a designer's perspective. It's NOT a small mistake. Furthermore, the story makes it clear that they KNEW what was wrong with what they were doing, and DID IT ANYWAYS.
Maro made a RARE that said: discard your hand. He wasn't fired, but he proved he could also make cool cards. And he is your hero now.
You see, give people a chance.
Maro's not my hero. He says the game needs bad cards. Then he begs somebody at a prerelease to explain how it's not his fault - that this card is too bad.
That said, Maro also made that card an instant instead of a sorcery AND it did something that no other card did. It ALSO, ironically, saw play against Owling Mine. So... there?
I mean if you want to go on about how if I don't like the pillows on airplanes, I shouldn't fly, or how if I hate rushhour traffic, I should quit my job... go ahead. Just be a pal and practice what you preach.
The people who should be fired are the ones responsible for the old cards in ZEN boosters...:facepalm: I hate the idea more each minute.
I'm with you on this bandwagon.
Actually, I think I was the first person to voice this concern, but I don't care. As long as the end result is that it never happens again. Drafting is the only Magic that I really like anymore, and coincidentally I'm pretty sure that Limited is the only aspect of Zendikar that is actually good..but something tells me that the only Zendikar drafting I EVER do will be on MTGO, where there are infinite packs and no price gouging due to dumb inserts.
@Dranoel: Why does Dexter have facial hair in your avatar? Also, please elaborate on 'quite good' in regard to this set.
If you don't like it [your car], stop driving.
If you don't like it [the tax system], stop paying your taxes.
If you don't like it [the taste of your medicine], stop taking your meds.
You see how your logic is that of a [profanity removed because I don't think it's strong enough]? No offense, but it seems that you're just not willing to look at things critically, and would rather throw stones at the person who is telling you that your glass house will break if you throw stones from inside it...
Following your logic, we should fire the people who came up with taxes.
Yeah. Because if I can read "Scathe Zombies" and put down "reprint", that automatically means I can make a better card game. Wait, no, that just means I can make a better card. And, again, your logic is flawed.
I want WOTC to make the best product ever. I don't want to make my own custom magic cards, or magicesque set, that noone would play for several years and would hurt a card game which I still think is fun, even if WOTC makes mistakes.
WotC has made the best product ever; it has lasted 16 years. 1 awful card isn't going to change that.
Yes, but if you'd read the story, you know this is not a mistake. This was deliberate.
When my boss points out the very thing I did wrong a dozen times in a row, and tells me how to fix it every time (cut the cost by 1 or kill the card), and I don't do it - I damned well deserve to be fired. Being told twice would probably be grounds for serious disciplanary action.
Look at the set from a designer's perspective. It's NOT a small mistake. Furthermore, the story makes it clear that they KNEW what was wrong with what they were doing, and DID IT ANYWAYS.
Tarmogoyf was also a huge mistake, at least regarded by WotC. Obviously, 'Goyf is infinitely more powerful but that's not the point. You're the expert on what is a mistake are you?
Remember Orcish Oriflamme from Alpha? It had a typo in its mana cost. If this truly was a typo, a little bit of errata in the Oracle can fix that.
Is the OP really serious about this? I remember he was the one who posted the craptastic Zendikar review and now he thinks someone should get fired over a single card? Unbelievable.
When OP backed himself up his points are quite true. Now for those who tried to prove him wrong need to come back and try to prove themselves right. I like bad cards.
Try nick naming ur friends these bad cards. Its fun
If every card was powerful there would still be bad cards and good cards, it's all relative.
I'm not asking for every card to be powerful, just for every card to be playable somewhere. If this thing was playable in multiplayer, tribal, or even standard-tribal, great! But he's not, so boo.
That said, even if you like "bad cards", there's absolutely no reason to print functionally inferior versions to bad cards. Other than to pick a fight or waste paper and ink and gas and money and hurt people's feelings.
Following your logic, we should fire the people who came up with taxes.
Me good at logic, you bad at logic.
Do you "buy" taxes? No, you pay taxes (presumably buying your roads, police, etc).
By my logic, if you buy a cup of coffee and someone peed in it, you get to complain and the person who peed in it should be fired. So unless you want to drink some pee coffee, you're on my side.
WotC has made the best product ever; it has lasted 16 years. 1 awful card isn't going to change that.
Yeah. It's SOOOO much better than Monopoly. Scrabble. Transformers. GIJoe.
Wait, no. WOTC makes one of the best CCGs ever. I wouldn't be here if they weren't. But when you have over a thousand cards released each year, you can leave this bastard OUT and noone would give a ****.
Tarmogoyf was also a huge mistake, at least regarded by WotC. Obviously, 'Goyf is infinitely more powerful but that's not the point. You're the expert on what is a mistake are you?
nothing is infinitely more powerful than something else.
And 'goyf is "the same kind" of mistake as skullclamp - except noone built decks around him and tribal didn't exist, and shouldn't have FYI.
This is a mistake that people knew about and said "screw you Maro, I'm keeping it as the good god typed it." THAT seems wrong.
Remember Orcish Oriflamme from Alpha? It had a typo in its mana cost. If this truly was a typo, a little bit of errata in the Oracle can fix that.
Now you're calling Xyl a liar. And you're confusing 16 year old "we've got another set coming out" logic for magic 2009 logic. Since we know you're not up to logic, I'll leave it at that.
The card is really bad. I'm over it already. I'll play the other 248 cards in Zendikar, instead.
Seriously, it would have been cool at 1B. Honestly it's not that big a deal though.
To the OP, saying "I'm so disgusted I'm seriously thinking about getting out of magic" and then getting arsey with people saying 'if you don't like it, quite magic' is a little hypocritical. You shouldn't make sweeping, melodramatic statements like that if you can't handle people saying 'OK, go right ahead'.
WotC dropped the ball on this common guy. That's all there is to be said. It's bad but I've seen badly designed cards before and I'm sure it'll happen again. Where Zen matters, they hit the nail on the head IMO. FWIW, I like the set.
EDIT: The poll options are a total waste of time, so I didn't vote. My view would be "I'm not keen on bad cards, but I comprehend the need for cards below the curve of a certain colour as a means to bolster definition of that colour's strengths and weaknesses and provide drafting challenges." Or something.
Dang... it's you versus everyone else again. It's one card... nobody's forcing you to use it, or anything.
Last I checked there were 9 for firing them, 15 for reprimanding them, and 13 people who "like bad cards" (or just disagree w/ me). The fourth option - 22 -if taken seriously think that this set had a lot of bad cards at the common level.
So it's clearly not Me VS everyone. It's the vocal minority against the me. And if they didn't have to (a) skip reading half of my post, or (b) use faulty logic to "prove their point", I might doubt myself.
That said, if I were to open this in draft, WOTC is forcing someone to walk away with it. This is literally a card that no one will ever run in a deck, or should ever run. It is not worth the paper it's printed on, quite literally.
Buying a pack of Zendikar is akin to buying one of those Harry Potter flavored jellybean things - but for real. Where you get to taste ****-flavored beans and puke flavored beans and the like. And noone "makes" you eat them (presuambly, you can't tell by looking or smelling them), but they still leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Seriously, it would have been cool at 1B. Honestly it's not that big a deal though.
Actually, you hit the nail right on the head. It would have been cool and now it's not. Do you REALLY think costing this RIGHT would have made Zendikar less fun? However, I damned well know I wouldn't be complaining as hard about the near-functionally worse healing salve because two of them stops Phage from killing you, 2 healing salve wouldn't. This, however, is UNFUN. And they knew it, and did it anyone. Would you settle for people KNOWINGLY doing a bad job in ANY OTHER AREA of your life? Because THAT is what we're talking about here.
Indeed. But how many of those people have defended your argument in this thread?
Anyway, if you want more reasonable discussion, I recommend creating a poll choice (if it's possible to change, I'm not sure) that doesn't frame anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. For instance, "No, I will instead enjoy the other 248 cards in the set other than moaning and groaning about one bad one."
Actually, that isn't all that fair anyway, since it frames anyone who does agree with you as not all that good. Maybe just "No," then.
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What would you attempt... if you knew you could not fail?
I agree; there is no excuse for this. Hell, this card could have been one mana and actually be fair in constructed (slightly OP but nothing to get your panties in a bunch), and they have it cost 3? Termination is in order.
Tournament Staple: these will help define the meta-game and archetypes. No doubt these exist in every set (except maybe the Kamigawa Block). See Cryptic Command.
Casual Fun: fantastic flavour, but too costly or impratical for tournament use. Makes it in EDH and the kitchen table. See Baron Sengir.
Limited Goodness: just doesn't seem to cut it in casual or tournament, but kicks ass in limited. If a card doesn't fit into the above two, it better damn well fit in here. See Vein Drinker.
That being said, there's no excuse for a card to ever be JANK in all formats. This zombie is garbage in every sense, it has no flavour because of its cost and you'd be bonkers to play it in limited. No doubt there will always be limited fodder, and that's a good thing since it makes drafts and sealed tons of fun to play. Functional reprints, even inferior ones are fine if it fits into either flavour or limited. A card should ALWAYS fall into one of the three above categories, no exceptions. If doesn't even cut it in limited, the designers should be publically horse-whipped.
In drafts, we could all just... band together and agree if there is a mindless null in your pack, you just rip it up.
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Originally Posted by Bitestobe
By my logic, if you buy a cup of coffee and someone peed in it, you get to complain and the person who peed in it should be fired. So unless you want to drink some pee coffee, you're on my side.
My inner Vorthos giggles at this card. I have a trillion Scathe Zombies (in fact, I've bought tons of 8th, 9th and 10th edition and I didn't even realize it was in those sets until someone mentioned it while whining about this card), and they do nothing for me. I think this card is cute and useless, whereas Scathe Zombies are just useless.
My inner Spike doesn't take a second look at this card, which is how you should handle it. "Oh, they printed a really horrific card. Let me go ahead and pass that along to the idiot drafting black to my left." That's it. Lighten up, Francis.
On a side note, I also have a bone to pick with the OP for making me think that the art had boobies in it or something. *glare*
I see what the OP means though. Magic has been here for about 20 years, so they should be professional now in their products, trying to have it as polished as possible. When messing up due to a typo and not willing to change it, what kind of 20 years of experience is that?
Of course, the fans won't care if someday only the rares will be usuable in competitive decks, as they'll be loyal fans no matter what Magic does. Magic's free to do whatever it wants and the fans will support it because it's so old.
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Mindless Nell 2B
Creature - Zombie C
Mindless Nell can't block unless you have a vampire.
~ decent flavor text explaining that this is the same kind of "zombie" as in that Blade movie~
2/2
Functionally worse than both Scathe Zombie and M2010's replacement there of. Also functionally worse than the 2/2 ally artifact for 3.
Here's the story:
Now, I'm okay with accidents. Skull Clamp was an accident, WOTC (hopefully) learned from it. But this was no accident. Someone made a typo, sure, but the dip***** in development were, apparently CONSTANLY PETITIONED By MARO to remove this card, and/or fix the typo (we can assume).
The card as MARO designed it (costing 1B) would have been an excellent limited card with FANTASTIC flavor. As it got through development, whatever flavor it has is drowned out by it being a waste of paper, quite literally.
So, here's the question: Should WOTC fire the members of the development team who facilitated the printing of this bastard. If we believe Maro, they had many opportunities to CATCH what's wrong with this POS, EVEN IF they've never played a game of magic in their life. Now, make no mistake, they'll come out with excuses. And they'll probably apologize for allys and (development's) traps sooner or later. Time heals all wounds, assuming your wounds don't kill you before they heal. But this seems to be a reprehensible act. Here we have a typo, a doubly functionally worse card than something that came out earlier this year and sees no serious play, and EVERY OPPORTUNITY to fix the typo to make it one of the best "flavor" and "limited" cards in the set. And they didn't do it. Not once. Not twice. Not over a long weekend where they were all tired and drunk after making up traps. Not the next morning on thier hangovers when they made up allys, and forgot that although allys have almost the exact same wording as LANDFALL, something the DESIGN team came up with, they shouldn't ability word allys. No. After numberous attempts, these dip***** constantly and consistently failed to do their jobs. I"m so disgusted I'm seriously thinking about getting out of magic. Afterall, if they can ruin as set w/ Fetchlands AND an awesome mechanic like landfall, god knows what they'll do to manlands or anything else in the future.
This just in: Zendikar Development team goes "old school" by giving us Goblin King and Mons Goblin Raiders in the m2011. They've also printed the following card:
Goblin of Kher Keep (R)
Creature - Goblin C
~ text about how goblins took over kher keep because I figure someone at WOTC actually played magic at one time.~
0/1
That's right kiddies - it combos with Goblin Grenade* (* not reprinted in M2011).
Whoa Mark was at the Seattle PR? I guess I should've headed over there today, but Cascade Games didn't get any interesting artists this time around.
Nope, you'll print format defining, absolutely necessary cards at mythic instead.
It's symptomatic of 3 much deeper problems in WOTC's set designing scheme:
1) Too many cooks spoils the meal.
2) During development, when in doubt, add (1)-(2) colorless mana. Then playtesting's NOT required.
3) "The game needs bad cards".
This is an instance of 1-3.
Now, with Chimney Imp, at least his ability was "new"... it was crap, but there was a few potential combos with him (you know, if he didn't suck and the game wasn't over by turn 3 in Mirrodin block, thanks to more WOTC mistakes in lack of playtesting, FYI). So if you're okay with bad cards, maybe you just need all bad cards to do something unique or interesting. But this doesn't even do that! It doesn't even have a unique creature type to look at gawkingly, or another card that makes it less bad (say an uncommon 2/1 vampire for BB who lets you tutor for a Mindless Null and put him into play for free). No, it's a bad, bad card.
In light of Maro's comments, even he REALIZES that (1) is true (too many cooks really do **** up a set, it seems), and he's been on record, I think, of saying "The game needs bad cards" - despite the fact that he clearly thinks this bad card, although FAR more flavorful in every way except mana cost than old "bad cards" should have been killed.
The reason why we focus on Mindless Nell is because 75% of this set is utter jank in one way or another. Allys might be competative, but have too much text and no ability wording (again, despite having ALMOST EXACTLY the SAME TEXT as Landfall abilities - in the SAME GOD DAMNED SET). Now some people like the allys. Some people hate ability words (I do, actually). Some people like to watch as people open bad cards (the word for them is "*******s" I believe.). But 95% of the magic community who pays attention long enough to Mindless Nell, specifically what happened during development, OUGHT to be enraged. There's no justification for it.
And so while you can fool some of the people most of the time, and most of the people some of the time, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Mindless Null is evidence of this. And it's important to note that WOTC isn't foolproof, and makes ******** stupid mistakes even when given EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO FIX THEM. Because when you take off the rose colored glasses for just a moment, you'll notice that the game you love is in the hands of a the zendikar development team, and you should be ****ing afraid.
Seriously, while I understand where you're coming from, I think that you're overreacting somewhat. People make mistakes, it's only one card.
Alright alright, actually the set as a whole is terrible IMO, but that's another topic.
I've never been in love with the 'every set needs bad cards' notion. I agree that some cards will only be good in some environments/appeal to some players. But I disagree with the notion that they should willfully print cards that are simply terrible by every stretch of the imagination. Alot of good examples of this were provided earlier, referencing cards like One With Nothing, or my personal favorite 'superterriblewhatweretheythinking' pile of crap, Numai Outcast. I mean honestly, that card is just..wow bad. I just don't see the need to print these? Cards that are good in Limited but not Constructed? Okay. Cards that are fun for casual but that's all? Okay. Even cards that are only good in multiplayer I can(begrudgingly, since Magic is really supposed to be a 1v1 game) accept. But cards like the one this thread is about should never see the light of day.
I'm confused about how MaRo could have notified them of this and nothing happened. Maybe the other developers are just really confused. I'm just a Magic player, but even I know that Mark Rosewater is a god among mortals as far as Magic goes. I guess the rest of the Development Team didn't get the memo. Or they're just jealous of his celebrity status, and don't realize that he earned it by A)actually talking to people and not hiding out in the basement of the WotC building and B)by not ignoring people when they point out things like 'that card is supposed to cost 1B, not 2B'.
I do agree that the development teams have grown too large, and that Allies and Landfall are effectively the same mechanic, just involving two different types of permanents. But, as I've said many times now, Magic is just about permanents now. YuGiOh players are all about permanents, and Magic is trying to steal them all...so now Magic loves permanents.
Too bad I love spells :sadpanda:
@monopoman: I don't remember any such statements re: Lorwyn. Just..every set since, until Alara Reborn, which is honestly really good. And to be fair, they're all accurate assessments, the last few years of Magic sets have been awful. Time Spiral block wasn't actually that good either, though by comparison now it looks phenomenal.
I heard the same whining when Lorwyn came out now people regard it as one of the most powerful sets ever made.
Especially if your only looking at cards that help existing decks if landfall makes it into a competitive deck of its own and a few more decks arise this will be a pretty damn good set overall.
But of course one bad common and oh noes lets all cry about it at least its not a rare like mudhole or moonlace.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
One With Nothing is a card that, while as terrible as possible, a person gets a little slack on..he was obviously trying to go somewhere with the card, the execution just failed utterly. But this scenario, where a development team was notified of a typo in the CMC of the card and was just too lazy to fix it, is not really acceptable. I don't think anyone should get fired, but it shouldn't happen again.
You sir, win the thread.
And I do see where the op is coming from but I don't it is a big deal. Some cards fail and some people fail and others just brain fart. I do however appreciate the design team's effort on the set as a whole. I mean have you looked at the art for this set. It got me excited about the game like when I first started playing with ravnica.
UBR Mishra Artifacts UBR
There's nothing wrong with BAD commons... don't you see even WotC admits they make cards worse than they could be in purpose in order to slow down the speed of Limited? I think it brilliantly adds balance to the set. The designers are professionals, with them there'd be no game. Quit whining (just kidding.:D Voice your opinions all you like, it's just a saying)...
I mean, it's a freaking 2/2 for 3 mana! Not a 4/2 for 6! Just do what I do: don't play it. Stick to the good cards in the set...
...Some people love suffering, I swear...:gonk:
I like 4/4s for 7.
If you don't like it [your car], stop driving.
If you don't like it [the tax system], stop paying your taxes.
If you don't like it [the taste of your medicine], stop taking your meds.
You see how your logic is that of a [profanity removed because I don't think it's strong enough]? No offense, but it seems that you're just not willing to look at things critically, and would rather throw stones at the person who is telling you that your glass house will break if you throw stones from inside it...
Yeah. Because if I can read "Scathe Zombies" and put down "reprint", that automatically means I can make a better card game. Wait, no, that just means I can make a better card. And, again, your logic is flawed.
I want WOTC to make the best product ever. I don't want to make my own custom magic cards, or magicesque set, that noone would play for several years and would hurt a card game which I still think is fun, even if WOTC makes mistakes.
Yes, but if you'd read the story, you know this is not a mistake. This was deliberate.
When my boss points out the very thing I did wrong a dozen times in a row, and tells me how to fix it every time (cut the cost by 1 or kill the card), and I don't do it - I damned well deserve to be fired. Being told twice would probably be grounds for serious disciplanary action.
Look at the set from a designer's perspective. It's NOT a small mistake. Furthermore, the story makes it clear that they KNEW what was wrong with what they were doing, and DID IT ANYWAYS.
Maro's not my hero. He says the game needs bad cards. Then he begs somebody at a prerelease to explain how it's not his fault - that this card is too bad.
That said, Maro also made that card an instant instead of a sorcery AND it did something that no other card did. It ALSO, ironically, saw play against Owling Mine. So... there?
I mean if you want to go on about how if I don't like the pillows on airplanes, I shouldn't fly, or how if I hate rushhour traffic, I should quit my job... go ahead. Just be a pal and practice what you preach.
Seriously, the set is quite good. A lot of the power is in the commons. Don't let a single card spoil the entire set.
I'm with you on this bandwagon.
Actually, I think I was the first person to voice this concern, but I don't care. As long as the end result is that it never happens again. Drafting is the only Magic that I really like anymore, and coincidentally I'm pretty sure that Limited is the only aspect of Zendikar that is actually good..but something tells me that the only Zendikar drafting I EVER do will be on MTGO, where there are infinite packs and no price gouging due to dumb inserts.
@Dranoel: Why does Dexter have facial hair in your avatar? Also, please elaborate on 'quite good' in regard to this set.
Following your logic, we should fire the people who came up with taxes.
WotC has made the best product ever; it has lasted 16 years. 1 awful card isn't going to change that.
Tarmogoyf was also a huge mistake, at least regarded by WotC. Obviously, 'Goyf is infinitely more powerful but that's not the point. You're the expert on what is a mistake are you?
Remember Orcish Oriflamme from Alpha? It had a typo in its mana cost. If this truly was a typo, a little bit of errata in the Oracle can fix that.
Try nick naming ur friends these bad cards. Its fun
I'm not asking for every card to be powerful, just for every card to be playable somewhere. If this thing was playable in multiplayer, tribal, or even standard-tribal, great! But he's not, so boo.
That said, even if you like "bad cards", there's absolutely no reason to print functionally inferior versions to bad cards. Other than to pick a fight or waste paper and ink and gas and money and hurt people's feelings.
Me good at logic, you bad at logic.
Do you "buy" taxes? No, you pay taxes (presumably buying your roads, police, etc).
By my logic, if you buy a cup of coffee and someone peed in it, you get to complain and the person who peed in it should be fired. So unless you want to drink some pee coffee, you're on my side.
Yeah. It's SOOOO much better than Monopoly. Scrabble. Transformers. GIJoe.
Wait, no. WOTC makes one of the best CCGs ever. I wouldn't be here if they weren't. But when you have over a thousand cards released each year, you can leave this bastard OUT and noone would give a ****.
nothing is infinitely more powerful than something else.
And 'goyf is "the same kind" of mistake as skullclamp - except noone built decks around him and tribal didn't exist, and shouldn't have FYI.
This is a mistake that people knew about and said "screw you Maro, I'm keeping it as the good god typed it." THAT seems wrong.
Now you're calling Xyl a liar. And you're confusing 16 year old "we've got another set coming out" logic for magic 2009 logic. Since we know you're not up to logic, I'll leave it at that.
Seriously, it would have been cool at 1B. Honestly it's not that big a deal though.
To the OP, saying "I'm so disgusted I'm seriously thinking about getting out of magic" and then getting arsey with people saying 'if you don't like it, quite magic' is a little hypocritical. You shouldn't make sweeping, melodramatic statements like that if you can't handle people saying 'OK, go right ahead'.
WotC dropped the ball on this common guy. That's all there is to be said. It's bad but I've seen badly designed cards before and I'm sure it'll happen again. Where Zen matters, they hit the nail on the head IMO. FWIW, I like the set.
EDIT: The poll options are a total waste of time, so I didn't vote. My view would be "I'm not keen on bad cards, but I comprehend the need for cards below the curve of a certain colour as a means to bolster definition of that colour's strengths and weaknesses and provide drafting challenges." Or something.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Last I checked there were 9 for firing them, 15 for reprimanding them, and 13 people who "like bad cards" (or just disagree w/ me). The fourth option - 22 -if taken seriously think that this set had a lot of bad cards at the common level.
So it's clearly not Me VS everyone. It's the vocal minority against the me. And if they didn't have to (a) skip reading half of my post, or (b) use faulty logic to "prove their point", I might doubt myself.
That said, if I were to open this in draft, WOTC is forcing someone to walk away with it. This is literally a card that no one will ever run in a deck, or should ever run. It is not worth the paper it's printed on, quite literally.
Buying a pack of Zendikar is akin to buying one of those Harry Potter flavored jellybean things - but for real. Where you get to taste ****-flavored beans and puke flavored beans and the like. And noone "makes" you eat them (presuambly, you can't tell by looking or smelling them), but they still leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Actually, you hit the nail right on the head. It would have been cool and now it's not. Do you REALLY think costing this RIGHT would have made Zendikar less fun? However, I damned well know I wouldn't be complaining as hard about the near-functionally worse healing salve because two of them stops Phage from killing you, 2 healing salve wouldn't. This, however, is UNFUN. And they knew it, and did it anyone. Would you settle for people KNOWINGLY doing a bad job in ANY OTHER AREA of your life? Because THAT is what we're talking about here.
Indeed. But how many of those people have defended your argument in this thread?
Anyway, if you want more reasonable discussion, I recommend creating a poll choice (if it's possible to change, I'm not sure) that doesn't frame anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. For instance, "No, I will instead enjoy the other 248 cards in the set other than moaning and groaning about one bad one."
Actually, that isn't all that fair anyway, since it frames anyone who does agree with you as not all that good. Maybe just "No," then.
Tournament Staple: these will help define the meta-game and archetypes. No doubt these exist in every set (except maybe the Kamigawa Block). See Cryptic Command.
Casual Fun: fantastic flavour, but too costly or impratical for tournament use. Makes it in EDH and the kitchen table. See Baron Sengir.
Limited Goodness: just doesn't seem to cut it in casual or tournament, but kicks ass in limited. If a card doesn't fit into the above two, it better damn well fit in here. See Vein Drinker.
That being said, there's no excuse for a card to ever be JANK in all formats. This zombie is garbage in every sense, it has no flavour because of its cost and you'd be bonkers to play it in limited. No doubt there will always be limited fodder, and that's a good thing since it makes drafts and sealed tons of fun to play. Functional reprints, even inferior ones are fine if it fits into either flavour or limited. A card should ALWAYS fall into one of the three above categories, no exceptions. If doesn't even cut it in limited, the designers should be publically horse-whipped.
By my logic, if you buy a cup of coffee and someone peed in it, you get to complain and the person who peed in it should be fired. So unless you want to drink some pee coffee, you're on my side.
My inner Spike doesn't take a second look at this card, which is how you should handle it. "Oh, they printed a really horrific card. Let me go ahead and pass that along to the idiot drafting black to my left." That's it. Lighten up, Francis.
On a side note, I also have a bone to pick with the OP for making me think that the art had boobies in it or something. *glare*
-E
Of course, the fans won't care if someday only the rares will be usuable in competitive decks, as they'll be loyal fans no matter what Magic does. Magic's free to do whatever it wants and the fans will support it because it's so old.