Not surprised by this, and it's perfectly fine. I wish we had Wrath still, but considering the only regenerators in the entire history of competitive Magic I can remember being relevant are Troll Ascetic, River Boa, and Sedge Troll (maybe?) I think it's safe to assume this will work EXACTLY like Wrath did.
I agree, assuming that Zendikar won't have any crazy Tarmogoyf-like regen creature.
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Vote 1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind for Planeswalker! U/
I like the card, God> Planeswalkers kinda of cool flavor.
On the regeneration thing, regeneration is just a mediocre mechanic it requires you to curtail your own board development to keep your creatures.
All of the great creatures with regeneration would have been great creatures with out it, with Troll Ascetic being the closest to needing regeneration.
The only card that I think got hit unfairly by all the anti regen stuff was Knight of the Holy Nimbus.
Your opponent isnt going to aim spells at a creature he knows you can regenerate so it really only hurts your board position since you have to leave resources open to protect your creature.
Regeneration is like auras IMO, the only way to make it good is to really boost the powerlevel, like regenerate: Discard a card from your hand.
Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
Good idea bringing back *** without the regen clause. Now aggro can actually field a late game threat that doesn't scoop to mass removal. Before, it was just a question of if they had it or not. Now, it's a question of if you should leave regen mana up or not. Good tension.
Also, this is going to be crazy expensive. If you can find these for under $20, get them.
I don't think this is necessarily going to be the case. Wrath of God was an expensive card because it was a staple in standard decks from almost the dawn of time, and it maintained its value even though it was printed in every core set ever up until m10. But the thing to remember is that no one really opened up product from core sets, because they were total trash value wise, so Wrath of God didn't get as distributed as you might think it was.
Zendikar, as up-and-coming large set of the new block, is going to opened up by everyone everywhere, so yes the card is going to be very highly valued at first, but after a while I'll bet its price will settle around $15 or so.
I like the card, God> Planeswalkers kinda of cool flavor.
On the regeneration thing, regeneration is just a mediocre mechanic it requires you to curtail your own board development to keep your creatures.
All of the great creatures with regeneration would have been great creatures with out it, with Troll Ascetic being the closest to needing regeneration.
The only card that I think got hit unfairly by all the anti regen stuff was Knight of the Holy Nimbus.
Your opponent isnt going to aim spells at a creature he knows you can regenerate so it really only hurts your board position since you have to leave resources open to protect your creature.
Regeneration is like auras IMO, the only way to make it good is to really boost the powerlevel, like regenerate: Discard a card from your hand.
agreed. but your example of Knight of the Holy Nimbus also made me think of Mossbridge Troll, which is far from overpowered. Maybe WotC was testing the waters of a new breed of regenorators that don't have to sacrifice board position to be useful by keeping open mana.
Hopefully Zendikar and further sets will have these types of creatures to debut regeneration as a more than mediocre ability
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Wasn't meant by flavor at all, more in what they are capable of doing mechanically and how I feel about them; namely White can do just about everything and thus is a total douchebag and blue is capable of a lot of things but not in the horribly obnoxious way white dies it and thus is spared my personal wrath.
I like the card, God> Planeswalkers kinda of cool flavor.
I don't really understand what you mean. PWs don't get hit by *** or DoJ, but Planar Cleansing. Or does this have to do with the less religious name of DoJ? Or... did you just get your [<][>] mixed up?
It's widely known that [EDH] is very broken. Building a superdeck is quite easy. So what defines you as a player is [...] how you show restraint and creativity while still remaining a competitive player and a good sport.
the only problem with urza is that he is an oldwalker, so its abilities would be like:
+3: remove up to ten target permanents from the play
-2: win the game
-8: kick your opponents in the face, then win the game
starting loyalty: 100
Even if we didn't have path to exile, regeneration still isn't that great. I think alot of people wish that they'd give up regeneration and go for persist. although if we have another rules change i'm sure regeneration would be okay (groan).
I don't really understand what you mean. PWs don't get hit by *** or DoJ, but Planar Cleansing. Or does this have to do with the less religious name of DoJ? Or... did you just get your [<][>] mixed up?
I think hes saying he likes the change from god to planeswalkers destroying things.
of course, sorin is just commenting on everything being destroyed, hes not actually doing any of the work on that card.
I suppose i really shouldn't be surprised by all this. Everyone who speculated it was coming back as something different said that this was the most flavorful white. However i think people should of realized it should be changed to a 5 mana wrath of god. As it is now, nothings changed.
Wrath of God = Day of Judgment
as far as gameplay goes. people just lost money, i'm not happy.
Opening up design space is never a bad thing. Wizards is not doing this because they want your money, they're doing this because they want to increase depth and strategy. Regeneration can now begin to be relevant, and can be explored more than it has.
Wizards does not profit from the sale of singles. If you want to blame someone, blame the card shops who overcharge for singles (i can name two out of the three in my area who do). One single card will not increase demand for the set overall, because serious players simply buy singles. Box sales will still be dictated by the consumer wanting a box, not expecting four of the same rare in that box.
What I hope it means is that regeneration becomes less relevant. The whole mechanic is unintuitive and inelegant, and I'd like to see it replaced across-the-board with indestructibility, which unlike regeneration does exactly what it says on the tin.
Removing references to regeneration makes the mechanic more powerful, but less important. I never really understood why kill spells had to specifically reference an anti-kill-spell mechanic. It's like "Destroy target creature. It can't be indestructible." or "Destroy target creature. It can't have shroud." I mean, really, when you think about it, what's the difference? It's odd. Why do spells need to be specially tailored to prevent regeneration, and even mention it by name? It creates the feeling that regeneration is this ability that needs to be countered somehow.
As long as Wrath of God is around, there need to be regenerators to not be able to regenerate, or there's a wasted line of text in there, and the card itself just looks silly. Without that line of text in there, or anywhere, we no longer need regenerators.
Ahhh we've seen this before when they removed Birds of Paradise from 9th edition and put it into Ravnica. But demand/outcry was so large that they eventually caved on their word and put Birds back into the editions.
While Birds didn't have a more or less functional reprint of itself in 10th, I'm quite sure we'll see something similar happen with m11: Removal of Day of Judgement in favour of the replacement of Wrath of God.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
IMO it isn't strictly better than ***. It's obvious since it lacks the line "They can't be regenerated." but I guess this'll do. As for personal preferences I'd pick *** any given day.
Also, this is going to be crazy expensive. If you can find these for under $20, get them.
Yes!, this is going to be expensive. Wrath is a solid $8-10 upon multiple re-prints. It saddens me that we wont probably see Wrath in standard again. Although I like the fact that WOTC is pushing for regenerating creatures (permanents?).
I'm pretty sure DoJ is gonna be cheaper than *** for one big reason, Wrath was an evergreen must-have in Standard forever, so people were willing to drop big bucks on playsets. With no guarantee that DoJ will stick around for more than a year, people will likely be more cautious and not spend huge amounts on it.
Opening up design space is never a bad thing. Wizards is not doing this because they want your money, they're doing this because they want to increase depth and strategy.
wake up... post M10 changes showed that they'd rather have new player than increase depth & strategy...
In fact they do. not directly though. But where do you think singles seller get their... singles ? they open boxes, and if boxes don't worth being opened... you can do the maths from here. adding 20$ cards but just changing the name (and here removing a damn line) is VERY profitable for Wizards. Every one will need 4 of those as soon as the next T2 major event.
Your opponent isnt going to aim spells at a creature he knows you can regenerate so it really only hurts your board position since you have to leave resources open to protect your creature.
Regeneration is like auras IMO, the only way to make it good is to really boost the powerlevel, like regenerate: Discard a card from your hand.
Lies !!! You have never killed a regen creature in limited to tap it than swing for the win? Or swing have them block to regen it than cast a creature kill spell?
And the reason there hasn't been that many great regen creatures is they never made a point to make them. Spiritmonger, Troll, and River Boa are the ones that pop into my mind as great regen creatures. But if they focus I'm sure they will produce some crazy stuff
Cool Regen Troll2GG
Creature -- Troll Shaman
Landfall - Whenever a land you control enters the battlefield regenerate <this>
Trample
4/4
Not saying that would see the light of day but you never know.
level up is absolute garbage. yes somebody feel free to quote me on this in their sig. NONE OF THE LEVEL UP CARDS SHOWN TODAY WILL SEE COMPETITIVE PLAY OUTSIDE OF LIKE ROE ONLY CONSTRUCTED OR SOME GARBAGE.
US Nationals and and Japan Nats beg to differ, its never left, anyway Im glad we get a new replacement for , rant is Im going to be spending another 10-12 bucks for a new ***.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
Opening up design space is never a bad thing. Wizards is not doing this because they want your money, they're doing this because they want to increase depth and strategy. Regeneration can now begin to be relevant, and can be explored more than it has.
Wizards does not profit from the sale of singles. If you want to blame someone, blame the card shops who overcharge for singles (i can name two out of the three in my area who do). One single card will not increase demand for the set overall, because serious players simply buy singles. Box sales will still be dictated by the consumer wanting a box, not expecting four of the same rare in that box.
They do profit from singles. The higher the price...the more demand for the card, usually. So the stores have to crack more boxes and cases to get said singles which means Wizards makes more money. Not to mention higher prices on singles means more customers will buy packs or play limited.
In this case Wizards is doing a fine job of making cash by forcing tournament players to drop $50-$80 for another set of Wraths.
I'm a bit angry that I have to drop that much money for DoJ, but Wizards has to make money. And every person is has the right to make a living and feed themselves.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
In this case Wizards is doing a fine job of making cash by forcing tournament players to drop $50-$80 for another set of Wraths.
I'm a bit angry that I have to drop that much money for DoJ, but Wizards has to make money. And every person is has the right to make a living and feed themselves.
Dude...play a deck without Wrath. They exist! See...the current Standard. There are exactly zero decks with Wrath, people are still playing Magic. Don't spend money on them unless you're going to be using them extensively.
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A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Landfall - Whenever a land you control enters the battlefield regenerate <this>
Trample
4/4
What the heck? That's terrible. Situational, your-turn-only and never-in-response-unless-you-have-a-Skyshroud Ranger Regeneration is pointless except for when you're playing your own board sweeper.
is this a joke? in T2 there are no wraths because that card is not T2 legal anymore. People that need to play wrath now must play hallowed burial that has ramped to stupid prices. And this functional reprint of wrath will ramp to stupid prices unless the market will be flooded with copies of it.
He was trying to lead you to an observation which he believes will help you think Wrath is unnecessary.
If I follow his thought process, it's this:
a) There's no Wrath in standard.
b) control decks still exist in Standard
Which is his process of elimination that Wrath is not needed in Standard. Oddly enough, it's kind of an interesting point. I recall listening to a lot of information about Extended last season, and despite zoo being one of the top decks, high level players were dropping Wrath as it 'didn't do enough' to justify it.
When you're trading a Wrath for a Woolly Thoctar, you're not really setting yourself up to win. Cards that provided better cost->answer ratio's were being run instead, and Wrath was proven to be too slow.
Fast forward to our present situation... if aggro decks can put enough pressure on without over extending, Wrath's main purpose has been nullified.
Is Wrath 'unnecessary' now? I doubt it, but I think this recent stint of time where it was missing from Standard has probably helped people step up and figure out that they were probably using it as a crutch when other options might work better for different deck types.
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^^
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If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
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He was trying to lead you to an observation which he believes will help you think Wrath is unnecessary.
If I follow his thought process, it's this:
a) There's no Wrath in standard.
b) control decks still exist in Standard
Which is his process of elimination that Wrath is not needed in Standard. Oddly enough, it's kind of an interesting point. I recall listening to a lot of information about Extended last season, and despite zoo being one of the top decks, high level players were dropping Wrath as it 'didn't do enough' to justify it.
When you're trading a Wrath for a Woolly Thoctar, you're not really setting yourself up to win. Cards that provided better cost->answer ratio's were being run instead, and Wrath was proven to be too slow.
Fast forward to our present situation... if aggro decks can put enough pressure on without over extending, Wrath's main purpose has been nullified.
Is Wrath 'unnecessary' now? I doubt it, but I think this recent stint of time where it was missing from Standard has probably helped people step up and figure out that they were probably using it as a crutch when other options might work better for different deck types.
You both missed the point badly. you less than the prevous poster though.
If he WANTS to play wrath (as some people enjoy playing the ritual) he will have to bank. That is rather sad. pay about 50$ for the playset of wrath you ALREADY have, with the old name. I'm pissed off. Even if i ended playing wrath years ago (in T2 at least).
Then, you said control does exist without wrath nowdays.
- first it's a lie. Hallowed burial is a wrath, and it is rotating, so the option is no longer available.
- second, we don't know what the futur (ZEN) holds, DoJ might be needed or not. But if it is, they is no alternative, as planar cleansing is quite crap compared to DoJ. The two obvious deck post rotation are WW and bant, against which DoJ seems to shine.
We CAN (and probably will) play wrathless deck, but money should NOT be the hinderance.
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I agree, assuming that Zendikar won't have any crazy Tarmogoyf-like regen creature.
U/
On the regeneration thing, regeneration is just a mediocre mechanic it requires you to curtail your own board development to keep your creatures.
All of the great creatures with regeneration would have been great creatures with out it, with Troll Ascetic being the closest to needing regeneration.
The only card that I think got hit unfairly by all the anti regen stuff was Knight of the Holy Nimbus.
Your opponent isnt going to aim spells at a creature he knows you can regenerate so it really only hurts your board position since you have to leave resources open to protect your creature.
Regeneration is like auras IMO, the only way to make it good is to really boost the powerlevel, like regenerate: Discard a card from your hand.
Troll Ascetic, Spiritmonger, and River Boa are the only relevant creatures I can think of for their time that had regeneration.
I don't think this is necessarily going to be the case. Wrath of God was an expensive card because it was a staple in standard decks from almost the dawn of time, and it maintained its value even though it was printed in every core set ever up until m10. But the thing to remember is that no one really opened up product from core sets, because they were total trash value wise, so Wrath of God didn't get as distributed as you might think it was.
Zendikar, as up-and-coming large set of the new block, is going to opened up by everyone everywhere, so yes the card is going to be very highly valued at first, but after a while I'll bet its price will settle around $15 or so.
kudos to Elysium for the sweet banner
agreed. but your example of Knight of the Holy Nimbus also made me think of Mossbridge Troll, which is far from overpowered. Maybe WotC was testing the waters of a new breed of regenorators that don't have to sacrifice board position to be useful by keeping open mana.
Hopefully Zendikar and further sets will have these types of creatures to debut regeneration as a more than mediocre ability
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
K then. No longer offended.
I don't really understand what you mean. PWs don't get hit by *** or DoJ, but Planar Cleansing. Or does this have to do with the less religious name of DoJ? Or... did you just get your [<][>] mixed up?
I think hes saying he likes the change from god to planeswalkers destroying things.
of course, sorin is just commenting on everything being destroyed, hes not actually doing any of the work on that card.
I suppose i really shouldn't be surprised by all this. Everyone who speculated it was coming back as something different said that this was the most flavorful white. However i think people should of realized it should be changed to a 5 mana wrath of god. As it is now, nothings changed.
Wrath of God = Day of Judgment
as far as gameplay goes. people just lost money, i'm not happy.
Wizards does not profit from the sale of singles. If you want to blame someone, blame the card shops who overcharge for singles (i can name two out of the three in my area who do). One single card will not increase demand for the set overall, because serious players simply buy singles. Box sales will still be dictated by the consumer wanting a box, not expecting four of the same rare in that box.
Standard:
Transmuter Elixir WUB
Naya Knight 'Blade RGW
Mighty Polymorphin' Progenitus UR
Extended:
RoflThopter UB
Casual:
Teferi Control/Mill U
Removing references to regeneration makes the mechanic more powerful, but less important. I never really understood why kill spells had to specifically reference an anti-kill-spell mechanic. It's like "Destroy target creature. It can't be indestructible." or "Destroy target creature. It can't have shroud." I mean, really, when you think about it, what's the difference? It's odd. Why do spells need to be specially tailored to prevent regeneration, and even mention it by name? It creates the feeling that regeneration is this ability that needs to be countered somehow.
As long as Wrath of God is around, there need to be regenerators to not be able to regenerate, or there's a wasted line of text in there, and the card itself just looks silly. Without that line of text in there, or anywhere, we no longer need regenerators.
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While Birds didn't have a more or less functional reprint of itself in 10th, I'm quite sure we'll see something similar happen with m11: Removal of Day of Judgement in favour of the replacement of Wrath of God.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Yes!, this is going to be expensive. Wrath is a solid $8-10 upon multiple re-prints. It saddens me that we wont probably see Wrath in standard again. Although I like the fact that WOTC is pushing for regenerating creatures (permanents?).
I guess prices for wraths are going down, eh?
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wake up... post M10 changes showed that they'd rather have new player than increase depth & strategy...
In fact they do. not directly though. But where do you think singles seller get their... singles ? they open boxes, and if boxes don't worth being opened... you can do the maths from here. adding 20$ cards but just changing the name (and here removing a damn line) is VERY profitable for Wizards. Every one will need 4 of those as soon as the next T2 major event.
Ie something like:
Sacrifice a creature - regenerate target creature.
Discard a card - regenerate target creature.
Lose X life - regenerate target creature
Basically, regeneration that doesn't cost mana, and hence doesn't mess with your curve.
Lies !!! You have never killed a regen creature in limited to tap it than swing for the win? Or swing have them block to regen it than cast a creature kill spell?
And the reason there hasn't been that many great regen creatures is they never made a point to make them. Spiritmonger, Troll, and River Boa are the ones that pop into my mind as great regen creatures. But if they focus I'm sure they will produce some crazy stuff
Cool Regen Troll2GG
Creature -- Troll Shaman
Landfall - Whenever a land you control enters the battlefield regenerate <this>
Trample
4/4
Not saying that would see the light of day but you never know.
BUWRG--->> Here to view my stuff <<---GRWUB
US Nationals and and Japan Nats beg to differ, its never left, anyway Im glad we get a new replacement for , rant is Im going to be spending another 10-12 bucks for a new ***.
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They do profit from singles. The higher the price...the more demand for the card, usually. So the stores have to crack more boxes and cases to get said singles which means Wizards makes more money. Not to mention higher prices on singles means more customers will buy packs or play limited.
In this case Wizards is doing a fine job of making cash by forcing tournament players to drop $50-$80 for another set of Wraths.
I'm a bit angry that I have to drop that much money for DoJ, but Wizards has to make money. And every person is has the right to make a living and feed themselves.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
Dude...play a deck without Wrath. They exist! See...the current Standard. There are exactly zero decks with Wrath, people are still playing Magic. Don't spend money on them unless you're going to be using them extensively.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
What the heck? That's terrible. Situational, your-turn-only and never-in-response-unless-you-have-a-Skyshroud Ranger Regeneration is pointless except for when you're playing your own board sweeper.
He was trying to lead you to an observation which he believes will help you think Wrath is unnecessary.
If I follow his thought process, it's this:
a) There's no Wrath in standard.
b) control decks still exist in Standard
Which is his process of elimination that Wrath is not needed in Standard. Oddly enough, it's kind of an interesting point. I recall listening to a lot of information about Extended last season, and despite zoo being one of the top decks, high level players were dropping Wrath as it 'didn't do enough' to justify it.
When you're trading a Wrath for a Woolly Thoctar, you're not really setting yourself up to win. Cards that provided better cost->answer ratio's were being run instead, and Wrath was proven to be too slow.
Fast forward to our present situation... if aggro decks can put enough pressure on without over extending, Wrath's main purpose has been nullified.
Is Wrath 'unnecessary' now? I doubt it, but I think this recent stint of time where it was missing from Standard has probably helped people step up and figure out that they were probably using it as a crutch when other options might work better for different deck types.
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
You both missed the point badly. you less than the prevous poster though.
If he WANTS to play wrath (as some people enjoy playing the ritual) he will have to bank. That is rather sad. pay about 50$ for the playset of wrath you ALREADY have, with the old name. I'm pissed off. Even if i ended playing wrath years ago (in T2 at least).
Then, you said control does exist without wrath nowdays.
- first it's a lie. Hallowed burial is a wrath, and it is rotating, so the option is no longer available.
- second, we don't know what the futur (ZEN) holds, DoJ might be needed or not. But if it is, they is no alternative, as planar cleansing is quite crap compared to DoJ. The two obvious deck post rotation are WW and bant, against which DoJ seems to shine.
We CAN (and probably will) play wrathless deck, but money should NOT be the hinderance.