The guy that posted the card said it is 'less worse' but didn't elaborate.
Seeing as how he lifted the template of Lotus Vale, and we already know it doesn't have the 'as it comes into play' templating, I think the card wants you to sacrifice three lands, not untapped lands. (Vale had that because it didn't CIPT)
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I completely forgot about death cloud. That is a great suggestion for this card. You have the loam engine to take back some of the drawback, STE can get you to 3 lands faster. Saccing the vale, putting garruk down and still having mana for death cloud is going to be a common play.
This card has lots of potential. Now you can run a devoted manabase to tooth and nail decks that doesn't need 8 post or tron, giving you the option of splashing more colors. You can also just cast the creatures off the vale. It's a great card.
Ok, so...
1) gigadrowse doesn't work if played in the same turn, cause they simply add mana and wait to counter your played card
2) counters would difficulty work too, cause if you're going to play a combo deck with something like this card, you've probably not done anything the last turn, so they can easily keep 2 counters in hand. You counter one of their counters, then they re-counter your big spell. GG again
3) there is no win-now-card in ext or std. Enduring has not even good cards to fetch, post rotation it is losing even decree of silence; T&N is not competitive from a long time, cause you just need to erase kiki-jiki or play some split second trash, and so on.
4) this is a late game card, something you could play as a 2 of in a loam or crucible build, just to get a lot of mana on turn 10 when you're in control of the board and when saccing 3 lands won't automatically lose you the game.
So again, i can't see where this is going to be a supermoneyrare...
You're not looking at the whole picture.
Death Cloud, Tooth and Nail, some of the Ultimatums and a few recursion strategies may not be instant-win, but they're as close as you get without breaking the format. Most players won't be able to recover from these if timed correctly. All of these strategies have hefty mana requirements, and filling those requirements as early as turn 4 is at least worth testing.
Between Duress, Thoughtseize, Kitchen Finks and similar early plays, a counter deck would be considerably strained to keep enough resources in hand to effectively disrupt your strategy. If it comes down to opposing disruption, I'd be much more concerned by the aforementioned Duress and Thoughtseize, which could be theoretically recovered from by a timely Eternal Witness.
Assuming an ideal turn four activation, your opponent is required to have at least two 2-mana counterspells in hand, and you not having enough information to play around them. Even then, a counter deck would be incredibly vulnerable to a timely combination of one-mana discard, Spell Snare and/or Guttural Response (or god forbid, an unopposed Vexing Shusher).
For Dragonstorm decks, having access to nine mana at the end of your opponent's turn means they can Gigadrowse to their heart's content, and then have some mana to spare to play a critical setup card, say, Gifts Ungiven for Mountain, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame and, say, Reclaim (floating one green)?. Who cares if they sac their only land in play, when Lotus Bloom and Ancestral Vision are coming online the very next turn?
Overall, Golden Lotus is a wonderful card for decks that need that one huge boost of mana to win the game. Should it also allow you to sacrifice tapped lands, I see very little downside to playing the card in decks that fill this requisite.
People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
I would just like to say this.
T1 - Land, Birds of Paradise
T2 - Land, Doubling Cube
T3 - Land, Knight of the Reliquary
T4 - Land, Pass
End of their T4 - tap KotR, Lotus into play. +4/+4 to KotR
T5 - Land, Pop Lotus (+1/+1 for KotR), tap doubling cube, Banefire for 14, Swing with Knight for game.
That would be fun.
I cannot wait to see what combo card they also print in M10 to make this worth playing in standard. It would be funny. Play the combo, buy this expensive card and also buy silence to keep the opponent from stopping you. Also, everybody else, buy silence to keep from dying to combo. Thanks for the $ suckas.
"I is going to cast silence!"
"I is going to cast silence in response to you casting silence!"
"...................."
"...................."
"There aren't any REALLY good haste creatures that are high power for the thing to power out. Karrthus and Overlord are the best high power creatures to power out with a Tooth and Nail. it could go:"
Yes that is true there is not good haste creature, but if u have Karrthus and Dragon Tyrant that 19 damage to the dome and with pain land I sure u just won the game this card is a good combo.
Oh and battlefield suck ass what is this F&*King yu-gi-oh now come on wizards
This card may have potential all over the place, from early ultimatums and whatnot, and about wiping all the lands, it would actually just wipe out all of your lands, because it would come into play, and then it should (if my magic rules are correct) just blow up because of legendary status, and then the other player won't have to sac 3 lands. Also, about Tooth and Nail, why not just play Kiki-Jiki and Sky Hussar for infinite damage instead of relying on onslaught fetches to kill them? Also, if this gets played in extended, Vesuva will be probably good again. Either way, it casts multiple planeswalkers, empyrial archangel, the indestructable green dude from shards?, and many more very deadly options.
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Paper Ratings: Constructed : 1708 Eternal : 1600 Limited : 1726 Total : 1772 Two Headed Giant - Constructed : 1584 Two Headed Giant - Limited : 1612
This card may have potential all over the place, from early ultimatums and whatnot, and about wiping all the lands, it would actually just wipe out all of your lands, because it would come into play, and then it should (if my magic rules are correct) just blow up because of legendary status, and then the other player won't have to sac 3 lands. Also, about Tooth and Nail, why not just play Kiki-Jiki and Sky Hussar for infinite damage instead of relying on onslaught fetches to kill them? Also, if this gets played in extended, Vesuva will be probably good again. Either way, it casts multiple planeswalkers, empyrial archangel, the indestructable green dude from shards?, and many more very deadly options.
Doesn't work like this because it's a replacement effect. If you don't sac the lands, it doesn't come into play (battlefield, whatever). If it's not in play, the legend rule doesn't apply. So if you want to blow their lotus with your lotus, you're going to have to sac three lands as well...
On the other hand, saccing three lands, may not be as bad as it seems. Justasktheseguys.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Isn't the tech with this: Golden Lotus + Razia's Purification + Violent Ultimatum? Sure you'd need one more land, but it literally one sided obliterates your opponent. You on the other hand will have 3 permanents (Creatures hopefully) and they wont even have permanent...GG?
Since both of them are sorceries, they can't be disrupted by removal, only counterspells.
EDIT: Confused purification with another card, so you probably wouldn't be able to do that, so I guess the tech is still Violent Ultimatum + Fork FTW. Still good.
On the note of combos for this. Here is what I got.
Turn 1 Forest
Turn 2 Forest, Rampart Growth. Doesnt matter what type
Turn 3 Float 3 mana and play Golden Lotus. Cast Early Harvest and you have 9 mana on turn 3 of any color. Better than UrzaTron and better than 3 Cloudpost.
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You've spent about 5 seconds reading this. I hope it was well spent.
Look at me! I can bold words and use CAPSLOCK to emphasize my point! Hopefully I can trick people into ignoring that I completely have no evidence in my post to back up my claims if I make it look fancy enough.
I hope that the lands end up not having to be untapped. It really restricts the card, and it doesn't seem that powerful to me. You can already play Prgenitus on turn 3, and Cruel Ultimatum is not overwhelmingly good on turn 4.(with a Rampant Growth) In standard this card would not be too good IMO even if you could sacrifice three tapped lands.
lands must be untapped, so no floating mana! there's a reason if we're saying this is a bombo card after all...
Reading is tech! The OP of the Rumor thread mentioned something about the card being "a little less worse" which many have been speculating means the lands don't have to be tapped.
What we're doing here is akin to taking the text of Moby Dick, locating specific words therein, rearranging them to create a passage from Fight Club, and concluding from this evidence that Tyler Durden is based on Ahab.
What we're doing here is akin to taking the text of Moby Dick, locating specific words therein, rearranging them to create a passage from Fight Club, and concluding from this evidence that Tyler Durden is based on Ahab.
Whether or not Golden Lotus will be great in Standard is open for debate- but in Extended, any card that can power out a Tooth and Nail a few turns early is probably viable. Since it doesn't require basic lands it plays well with any manabase, and the list of 7+ mana spells you want to resolve with this card is considerably more expensive. As for Standard, the list is a bit tighter, but I imagine someone will conceive of a decent combo deck based around the explosive amounts of mana this card provides, even if it is quite fragile.
The idea of playing it with Realm Razer is actually quite appreciable. It's just too bad that Realm Razer has such a fragile backend.
I was questioning the "CMC X or less". Now i know that None is less than zero but lands do not have a CMC, hence my question.
Lands and all cards without a printed mana cost all count as having a converted mana cost of 0, thus cards like ancestral visions can be cascaded into.
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Seeing as how he lifted the template of Lotus Vale, and we already know it doesn't have the 'as it comes into play' templating, I think the card wants you to sacrifice three lands, not untapped lands. (Vale had that because it didn't CIPT)
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This card has lots of potential. Now you can run a devoted manabase to tooth and nail decks that doesn't need 8 post or tron, giving you the option of splashing more colors. You can also just cast the creatures off the vale. It's a great card.
Akroma would like to have a word with you :-/.
I think sac into Balance + Terravore/Knight of the Reliquaryx2 would be awesome.
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You're not looking at the whole picture.
Death Cloud, Tooth and Nail, some of the Ultimatums and a few recursion strategies may not be instant-win, but they're as close as you get without breaking the format. Most players won't be able to recover from these if timed correctly. All of these strategies have hefty mana requirements, and filling those requirements as early as turn 4 is at least worth testing.
Between Duress, Thoughtseize, Kitchen Finks and similar early plays, a counter deck would be considerably strained to keep enough resources in hand to effectively disrupt your strategy. If it comes down to opposing disruption, I'd be much more concerned by the aforementioned Duress and Thoughtseize, which could be theoretically recovered from by a timely Eternal Witness.
Assuming an ideal turn four activation, your opponent is required to have at least two 2-mana counterspells in hand, and you not having enough information to play around them. Even then, a counter deck would be incredibly vulnerable to a timely combination of one-mana discard, Spell Snare and/or Guttural Response (or god forbid, an unopposed Vexing Shusher).
For Dragonstorm decks, having access to nine mana at the end of your opponent's turn means they can Gigadrowse to their heart's content, and then have some mana to spare to play a critical setup card, say, Gifts Ungiven for Mountain, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame and, say, Reclaim (floating one green)?. Who cares if they sac their only land in play, when Lotus Bloom and Ancestral Vision are coming online the very next turn?
Overall, Golden Lotus is a wonderful card for decks that need that one huge boost of mana to win the game. Should it also allow you to sacrifice tapped lands, I see very little downside to playing the card in decks that fill this requisite.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
T1 - Land, Birds of Paradise
T2 - Land, Doubling Cube
T3 - Land, Knight of the Reliquary
T4 - Land, Pass
End of their T4 - tap KotR, Lotus into play. +4/+4 to KotR
T5 - Land, Pop Lotus (+1/+1 for KotR), tap doubling cube, Banefire for 14, Swing with Knight for game.
That would be fun.
"I is going to cast silence!"
"I is going to cast silence in response to you casting silence!"
"...................."
"...................."
4 Golden Lotus
Combo Potential:
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Reap and Sow
4 Tooth and Nail
4 Hellkite Overlord
4 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Tree
Yes that is true there is not good haste creature, but if u have Karrthus and Dragon Tyrant that 19 damage to the dome and with pain land I sure u just won the game this card is a good combo.
Oh and battlefield suck ass what is this F&*King yu-gi-oh now come on wizards
Constructed : 1708
Eternal : 1600
Limited : 1726
Total : 1772
Two Headed Giant - Constructed : 1584
Two Headed Giant - Limited : 1612
MTGO Ratings:
Constructed: 1612
Limited: 1665
Composite: 1639
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official rules advisor. it gets me there.
Doesn't work like this because it's a replacement effect. If you don't sac the lands, it doesn't come into play (battlefield, whatever). If it's not in play, the legend rule doesn't apply. So if you want to blow their lotus with your lotus, you're going to have to sac three lands as well...
On the other hand, saccing three lands, may not be as bad as it seems. Just ask these guys.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
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Since both of them are sorceries, they can't be disrupted by removal, only counterspells.
EDIT: Confused purification with another card, so you probably wouldn't be able to do that, so I guess the tech is still Violent Ultimatum + Fork FTW. Still good.
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Playing:
WU Empty Throne Control
WUG Bant Stoic Control
Turn 1 Forest
Turn 2 Forest, Rampart Growth. Doesnt matter what type
Turn 3 Float 3 mana and play Golden Lotus. Cast Early Harvest and you have 9 mana on turn 3 of any color. Better than UrzaTron and better than 3 Cloudpost.
Reading is tech! The OP of the Rumor thread mentioned something about the card being "a little less worse" which many have been speculating means the lands don't have to be tapped.
Guildmaster Jarad
I'm usually wrong though...
Pardon my ignorance, but can you use wargate to get a land? or are you not suggesting that?
Guildmaster Jarad
The idea of playing it with Realm Razer is actually quite appreciable. It's just too bad that Realm Razer has such a fragile backend.
Genius!
And Wargate is not crappy, it's quite good!
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
I was questioning the "CMC X or less". Now i know that None is less than zero but lands do not have a CMC, hence my question.
Lands and all cards without a printed mana cost all count as having a converted mana cost of 0, thus cards like ancestral visions can be cascaded into.
Epic Sig by: Myself
Mindsplicer of [House Dimir]