As a Johnny/Timmy, I like this guy. But I actually think that it's more safe to combine it with tokens (Fists of Ironwood?) than with mana producers that drop it on turn 2 (because it'd have a huge target right on it's face then).
Exact my players type, and exactly what i was thinking.... Why use mana critters to make him bad? Use a token and you have NO carddisadvantage (except the token genrator maybe) and NO tempo disadvantage. On the upside you have a 5/6 before they have a thoctar or directly after... depends on who goes first. And thoctar uses 3 different mana, dies to cards like flame javelin or a lower banefire, and even dies to HIM.
Yes he (and thoctar and goyf and...) dies to terminate and terror.... of course he does, more than 50% of all creatures do. But with token accleration you don't loose that much....
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For all you have done for the game we love.
Glen Angus, Magic Artist, 1970-2007 ; Richie Proffitt, MTG Salvation Mod (PolarBearGod), 1977-2008
Rest in Peace.
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics, and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.
Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
who cares about the next card? i definitely would. what you're doing is effectively bouncing your creature (tempo loss) and then skipping your next draw step (card disadvantage). elvish visionary is really the only card in standard that makes this not really card disadvantage, but then it only turns it into a 5 mana 5/6.
if nulltread gargantuan's drawback was insignificant, then excommunicate would be unplayable in limited (which, by the way, would be funny to play on a nulltread).
I'd like to insist that with a CIP effect, there's no card disadvantage, just a small loss of tempo coming from what seemed like an overcosted sorcery. And visionary is not the only one. Mulldrifter actually gives you +1 card, a Shriekmaw too, if you killed a creature both times. So yeah, in the end, you end paying 5 mana fir the big guy, but first, a 5/6 for 5 is not exactly bad, most creatures your opponents cast for 5 will be at most 5/5, a blaze needs 7 mana to kill it; and second those "5 mana" are paid during two turns and you got an effect with your first payment and a huge guy with your second while leaving your mana open to protect it! It's like a reversed echo. Not to mention the loss is almost negligible if you return a token: turn 2 Spectral procession, turn 3 this guy looks like a good play on my book.
So yeah, it dies to almost everything. But once again, with a CIP effect creature, there was no card disadvantage, just a rather subpar play the last turn (which is not the end of the world, it's like if you missed a land drop) that evens out by having your opponent spend his precious removal on a 3cmc creature instead saving it for your huge finisher.
Except that if it said "own" it would be actually worse as you'd always lose tempo, even if you managed to regain control of a creature this way. As it is now you can use it with threaten effects to screw your opponent badly.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Nulltread Gargantuan's drawback isn't as terrible as some people are claiming, but it's potential upside isn't very good either. Putting a vanilla 5/6 on turn 3 by skipping your turn 2 isn't worth playing such suboptimal cards, and dropping it on turn 2 via Birds and co. is a very risky play. It's most acceptable use is probably Mulldrifter and/or Sarkhan Vol, and even then you really don't want to draw it without those cards.
I think it will win some games when your opponent can't answer it, but mostly it will harm your deck by creating more opportunities for bad draws by you or timely 3-for-1's by your opponent.
...As a means to mill your opponent in a deck that could gain silly amounts of life. No competitive player in his right mind would've actively played Chronosavant just to put a 5/5 creature in play for two mana.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
If you have 8 mana and you're playing a deck that plays Blitz Hellion, and you resolve Blitz Hellion, couldn't you find better things to do with that mana? Like...I dunno...win?
If you have 8 mana and you're playing a deck that plays Blitz Hellion, and you resolve Blitz Hellion, couldn't you find better things to do with that mana? Like...I dunno...win?
This. The majority of people I see defending this card are coming up with crazy scenarios where the drawback is good. When in fact there are much better things to do with the mana, or better/different cards to put into your deck instead.
I'm not a tournament player, but I can see the disadvantage of this guy for them. It also hurts that this guy doesn't have trample. You opponent can just block with 1/1's until they get an answer. It's value depends a lot on what is in your opponents hand and in play. If he has an answer right away, you are screwed. If he can chump block till he GETS an answer, you are screwed. If your opponent has no blockers and no removal, he will go the distance, but again it's value depends entirely on what your opponent has in his hand and play. Trample would make it much nicer and dangerous. It's a cheap beef critter that to tournament players looking to go the distance with him alone on the second turn costs too much and is too easy to deal with overall. To your average non tournament player who just wants to put out a big beefy critter for a cheap price he's great. It's all in how you look at him.
Actually the more I think about it, I think this guy would be better out of "traditional" shard colors, :symg::symr::symu: to put it bluntly, think about it elvish visionary would balance the Nulltreads drawback, but thats only four cards, so you play Dragon Fodder which again is card advantage and also costs 2, now thats 8 cards that can work with the Nulltread. :symg::symr: has lots to offer the nulltread gargantuan, Colossal might, cascade cards like bloodbraid elf and/or violent outburst, cascade building more advantage, interesting creatures (naya hushblade) decent removal like branching bolt or magma spray and creatures with haste. the end of things offers more card drawing, in various forms, unblockable creatures, flash creatures and even some good removal/tempo (unsummon).
The drawback is about as bad as if it said "sacrifice a creature". It also doesn't open up potential 3-for-1s as people have been saying; it would still be a 2-for-1.
It has both card disadvantage and tempo loss; fact. By choosing cards to negate the CA loss you weaken your deck and make the tempo loss worse. It's a bad card; realize that its a 5/6 for 3 that has a substantial drawback compared to a 5/5 for 3 whose only drawback is being legendary.
I think it would have made sense if this guy had flash, might be interesting then, at 4/5 I guess.
The drawback is about as bad as if it said "sacrifice a creature".
That's about the best way to sum it up. The fact that you lose your next draw step is only slightly relevant, as a random card is a random card and thus likely to be about as good (if not worse) than whatever you put on top of your deck. The card creates inherent card disadvantage. It does not create a particular amount of tempo disadvantage, as once again any random card off the top of your deck is just a random card. To say that is tempo disadvantage is about the same as saying that milling actually creates tempo advantage (which it does not).
The few times its ability can be an upside are more likely to be few and far between. There's few 1 and 2 drops that are worth playing with CIP effects to make this card good (note: Elvish Visionary is not worth playing) so often you'll be setting yourself back a drop in order to play a bigger drop, not only creating a slight card disadvantage for yourself but opening yourself up for a massive one at the hands of a removal spell. As far as 3 drops go for UG in Reborn, I am more impressed by Lorescale Coatl (which might be Constructed playable, as it plays as a 3/3 for 3 more often than not- except for the fact it dies to a Fallout the turn it comes into play- and can grow at a pretty fast rate).
I think this card is going to be the backbone of a new U/G deck. Between this, lorescale coatl and vedalken heretic, U/G picked up some very strong cards. Where does nulltread gargantuan shine? Turn 6, with counter backup. He is a threat that is large enough to be relevant late game while still leaving you mana for counterspells.
If for no other reason than for the amount of debate it has sparked on the forums. It smacks of a 'skill testing' card through and through, which is very difficult to accomplish now-a-days, what with the intarwebs and all.
Personally? I'm with Cottc Cid above me. It's not a turn two/three creature unless you get crazy lucky/crazy bold. It's a mid game creature that has a lot of power for 3 mana which leaves you mana open to do other things, like cast removal or counters or card draw or whatever along side it.
The drawback is a steep one, even if you build around it. I can't imagine that anyone in their right mind would say otherwise. But Magic is full of cards that mitigate theoretical drawbacks and turn them into advantages or just reduce them to nill. I'd say it's possible for this gut to be a beating. Of course it's also possible that he's as horrible as people think... the deck builders will determine it in the next few months...
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^^
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If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
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and makes you lose one turn. do you have a combo with "lose a turn"?
losing a draw phase (and maybe replaying a creature) =/= losing a turn. You do more on your turn than draw a card. Like attack with 5/6 creatures, for example.
I'm not a fan of this card, but I wouldn't dismiss it completely either. cottc cid is right that this would make a nice mid/late-game play rather than a turn 3 "oops you killed it and I gave you a time walk" play.
Really, fallow earth yourself or sacrifice a creature or even "lose a turn" is not a backbreaking drawback on a 5/6 for 1GU. The problem isn't that this creature is terrible; the problem is that wotc has been printing random overpowered creatures with no drawbacks. It is hard to justify this drawback when all it gets you is +2 toughness over a wooly thoctar. Clearly, its only chance for play is in a blue/green deck that wouldn't have access to thoctar/doran/whatever. Even then, you have the lorescale, but maybe there is room for both. Considering all the blue and green creatures with interesting comes-into-play abilities, this is at least big fun in casual.
Except that if it said "own" it would be actually worse as you'd always lose tempo, even if you managed to regain control of a creature this way. As it is now you can use it with threaten effects to screw your opponent badly.
Actually I was thinking about Forbidden orchard:rolleyes:. As for the threatenening combo; I'd rather have a nantuko husk or miren, the moaning well for that situation and send that crature to the yard. but that's just me of course
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Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics, and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.
Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
and makes you lose one turn. do you have a combo with "lose a turn"?
How exactly is "sacrifice a token" the same as "lose a turn"? There's plenty of ways around the drawback, and really you're not losing anything but a creature in play for a "probably" way bigger one. Like has been already pointed out, for all you know, you could be drawing the same creature next turn anyway or something worse. And there are plenty of creatures you'd like to be able to replay, many times even if it meant pushing you back a card.
Comparing this to Wooly Thoctar isn't really fair either. This is easier to cast, with 2 more toughness (yes that matters a lot), and in a color that typically doesn't get early-game fat like this.
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Exact my players type, and exactly what i was thinking.... Why use mana critters to make him bad? Use a token and you have NO carddisadvantage (except the token genrator maybe) and NO tempo disadvantage. On the upside you have a 5/6 before they have a thoctar or directly after... depends on who goes first. And thoctar uses 3 different mana, dies to cards like flame javelin or a lower banefire, and even dies to HIM.
Yes he (and thoctar and goyf and...) dies to terminate and terror.... of course he does, more than 50% of all creatures do. But with token accleration you don't loose that much....
For all you have done for the game we love.
Glen Angus, Magic Artist, 1970-2007 ; Richie Proffitt, MTG Salvation Mod (PolarBearGod), 1977-2008
Rest in Peace.
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics,
and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
I'd like to insist that with a CIP effect, there's no card disadvantage, just a small loss of tempo coming from what seemed like an overcosted sorcery. And visionary is not the only one. Mulldrifter actually gives you +1 card, a Shriekmaw too, if you killed a creature both times. So yeah, in the end, you end paying 5 mana fir the big guy, but first, a 5/6 for 5 is not exactly bad, most creatures your opponents cast for 5 will be at most 5/5, a blaze needs 7 mana to kill it; and second those "5 mana" are paid during two turns and you got an effect with your first payment and a huge guy with your second while leaving your mana open to protect it! It's like a reversed echo. Not to mention the loss is almost negligible if you return a token: turn 2 Spectral procession, turn 3 this guy looks like a good play on my book.
So yeah, it dies to almost everything. But once again, with a CIP effect creature, there was no card disadvantage, just a rather subpar play the last turn (which is not the end of the world, it's like if you missed a land drop) that evens out by having your opponent spend his precious removal on a 3cmc creature instead saving it for your huge finisher.
Except that if it said "own" it would be actually worse as you'd always lose tempo, even if you managed to regain control of a creature this way. As it is now you can use it with threaten effects to screw your opponent badly.
Not with Puca's Mischief.
Nulltread Gargantuan's drawback isn't as terrible as some people are claiming, but it's potential upside isn't very good either. Putting a vanilla 5/6 on turn 3 by skipping your turn 2 isn't worth playing such suboptimal cards, and dropping it on turn 2 via Birds and co. is a very risky play. It's most acceptable use is probably Mulldrifter and/or Sarkhan Vol, and even then you really don't want to draw it without those cards.
I think it will win some games when your opponent can't answer it, but mostly it will harm your deck by creating more opportunities for bad draws by you or timely 3-for-1's by your opponent.
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...As a means to mill your opponent in a deck that could gain silly amounts of life. No competitive player in his right mind would've actively played Chronosavant just to put a 5/5 creature in play for two mana.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Just sayin'...
Attack with Blitz Hellion. Play the gargantuan second main phase targeting the hellion.
Backstabbing your friends for fun and profit
My Decks
EDH:
GVerdeloth the AncientG
Standard:
GWU Mana Denial UWG
This. The majority of people I see defending this card are coming up with crazy scenarios where the drawback is good. When in fact there are much better things to do with the mana, or better/different cards to put into your deck instead.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Wow... who has never played magic now? Basic math is good people.
This card IS card disadvantage, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
It's a bad, bad card and it will see zero top 8 lists in constructed.
It has both card disadvantage and tempo loss; fact. By choosing cards to negate the CA loss you weaken your deck and make the tempo loss worse. It's a bad card; realize that its a 5/6 for 3 that has a substantial drawback compared to a 5/5 for 3 whose only drawback is being legendary.
I think it would have made sense if this guy had flash, might be interesting then, at 4/5 I guess.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
That's about the best way to sum it up. The fact that you lose your next draw step is only slightly relevant, as a random card is a random card and thus likely to be about as good (if not worse) than whatever you put on top of your deck. The card creates inherent card disadvantage. It does not create a particular amount of tempo disadvantage, as once again any random card off the top of your deck is just a random card. To say that is tempo disadvantage is about the same as saying that milling actually creates tempo advantage (which it does not).
The few times its ability can be an upside are more likely to be few and far between. There's few 1 and 2 drops that are worth playing with CIP effects to make this card good (note: Elvish Visionary is not worth playing) so often you'll be setting yourself back a drop in order to play a bigger drop, not only creating a slight card disadvantage for yourself but opening yourself up for a massive one at the hands of a removal spell. As far as 3 drops go for UG in Reborn, I am more impressed by Lorescale Coatl (which might be Constructed playable, as it plays as a 3/3 for 3 more often than not- except for the fact it dies to a Fallout the turn it comes into play- and can grow at a pretty fast rate).
I think this card is going to be the backbone of a new U/G deck. Between this, lorescale coatl and vedalken heretic, U/G picked up some very strong cards. Where does nulltread gargantuan shine? Turn 6, with counter backup. He is a threat that is large enough to be relevant late game while still leaving you mana for counterspells.
If for no other reason than for the amount of debate it has sparked on the forums. It smacks of a 'skill testing' card through and through, which is very difficult to accomplish now-a-days, what with the intarwebs and all.
Personally? I'm with Cottc Cid above me. It's not a turn two/three creature unless you get crazy lucky/crazy bold. It's a mid game creature that has a lot of power for 3 mana which leaves you mana open to do other things, like cast removal or counters or card draw or whatever along side it.
The drawback is a steep one, even if you build around it. I can't imagine that anyone in their right mind would say otherwise. But Magic is full of cards that mitigate theoretical drawbacks and turn them into advantages or just reduce them to nill. I'd say it's possible for this gut to be a beating. Of course it's also possible that he's as horrible as people think... the deck builders will determine it in the next few months...
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
Yeah, but magic is also full of creature as good or better that dont have this draw back.
This comes in early and returns a spellstutter sprite or at worst a token. That seems pretty good to me.
And if your sprite countered something then your opponent already lost a turn, and you have a reusable sprite.
losing a draw phase (and maybe replaying a creature) =/= losing a turn. You do more on your turn than draw a card. Like attack with 5/6 creatures, for example.
I'm not a fan of this card, but I wouldn't dismiss it completely either. cottc cid is right that this would make a nice mid/late-game play rather than a turn 3 "oops you killed it and I gave you a time walk" play.
Really, fallow earth yourself or sacrifice a creature or even "lose a turn" is not a backbreaking drawback on a 5/6 for 1GU. The problem isn't that this creature is terrible; the problem is that wotc has been printing random overpowered creatures with no drawbacks. It is hard to justify this drawback when all it gets you is +2 toughness over a wooly thoctar. Clearly, its only chance for play is in a blue/green deck that wouldn't have access to thoctar/doran/whatever. Even then, you have the lorescale, but maybe there is room for both. Considering all the blue and green creatures with interesting comes-into-play abilities, this is at least big fun in casual.
Actually I was thinking about Forbidden orchard:rolleyes:. As for the threatenening combo; I'd rather have a nantuko husk or miren, the moaning well for that situation and send that crature to the yard. but that's just me of course
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics,
and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
How exactly is "sacrifice a token" the same as "lose a turn"? There's plenty of ways around the drawback, and really you're not losing anything but a creature in play for a "probably" way bigger one. Like has been already pointed out, for all you know, you could be drawing the same creature next turn anyway or something worse. And there are plenty of creatures you'd like to be able to replay, many times even if it meant pushing you back a card.
Comparing this to Wooly Thoctar isn't really fair either. This is easier to cast, with 2 more toughness (yes that matters a lot), and in a color that typically doesn't get early-game fat like this.