Thornling deck

  • #1
    Bolas's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Thornling
    4 Garruk Wildspeaker
    4 Fertile ground
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Devoted druid
    4 Kitchen Finks
    4 Firespout
    4 Lignify
    4 Cloudthresher
    2 Primal Command

    16 Forest
    4 Karplusan Forest
    2 Fire-Lit Thicket



    So I have been proxing with the new Morphling (Thornling) and so far it is a bomb!!! So what do you guys think of the deck and any suggestions to what I need for main board and side board.
    Last edited by Bolas: 1/15/2009 2:32:56 PM
  • #2
    You are focusing too much on Thornling..
    Hes your only win-con as it looks and he isnt so hard to deal with in the first place.
    You need more fattie boom boom like Cloudthresher and Colossus.
    Maybe some Oversoul of dusk too Smile
  • #3
    What makes thornling better than colossus? I don't get it, he seems sub par. Also why are you running lignify? You're running red, just run incinerate for reach and removal.
  • #4
    Why not run Quillspike when you have Devoted Druid? You have red mana sources so splash for Soul's Fire.
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  • #5
    I'm pretty sure W/G aggro-control is the way to go with Thornling. Kitchen Finks, Thornling, and Wrath of God is a pretty sweet package. You can run Steward of Valeron for early beats and acceleration, as well.
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  • #6
    Hmmm... Lignify? There are SO many better options. Take PtE for example (of course you'd have to play white). Not bad, just add threats.
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  • #7
    Bolas's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Wrath of Thornling
    4 Thornling
    4 Garruk Wildspeaker
    4 Fertile ground
    4 Noble Hireach
    4 Cloudthresher
    4 Devoted druid
    4 Kitchen Finks
    4 Path to Exile
    4 Oblivion Ring
    2 Wrath of God

    12 Forest
    4 Plain
    4 Brushland
    2 Wooded Bastion



    Ok I dried white in the deck and it worked really well, and to answer ArcanePie's question about how Thornling is better then Colossus. It is better because Colossus Just keeps getting cumped all day by little tokens, and it can't survive wrath on its own, it can't trample on its own, and it has to wait a turn before you can attack with it. I usually have enough mana by turn 5 to do more damage to the player with Thornling then Colossus. Plus, I think when the set comes that Martial Coup is going to be played a lot and Thornling is a better defensive and offensive card against Martial Coup then Colossus.

    As for the sideboard I choose a defense agaisnt control.Thoughts.
    Bolas's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
  • #8
    Quote from Goryus
    I'm pretty sure W/G aggro-control is the way to go with Thornling. Kitchen Finks, Thornling, and Wrath of God is a pretty sweet package. You can run Steward of Valeron for early beats and acceleration, as well.


    In WG control, I definitely do not see this played over Oversoul of Dusk. The only things Oversoul of Dusk is vulnerable to (primarily, white removal, aside from WoG which admittedly is tasty) Thornling is also vulnerable to. But, Oversoul of Dusk gets protection from Black, Red, and Blue which are concerns and is a much stronger ability than Indestructible. And, it gets that for free with it's 5/5 fat while Thornling has to pay an additional 1 for it.

    This brings me to Thornling's second major problem.

    Haste, though now in green's pool, is terrible on this card. Thornling obviously has a huge target on it, so you'll want to save a mana to make it indestructibe (such that it is,) so it already costs 6. If you want it to attack the first turn, then, you'll have to pay 7.

    Tell me, would you play this?

    Thornling - :3mana::symg::symg::symg::symg:
    Creature - Shapeshifter

    Haste
    Thornling is Indestructible
    :symg:: Thornling gains trample until end of turn.
    :1mana:: Thornling gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
    :1mana:: Thornling gets -1/+1 until end of turn.

    4/4

    when you could instead play something like, say, Cloudthresher?

    I wouldn't.
    Winner of the March CCL Contest
  • #9
    That's a strawman, though. It has haste WHEN you need it, indestructible WHEN you need it. If you don't need them, it costs 5 (realistically, you will want to either haste it or have the mana open for indestructible on the turn you play it, so it should count as a 6 drop, but acting like it is a 7 drop is silly).
  • #10
    You always need to have indestructible open. Haste would be nice but if I drop this with G open I'm not spending it on haste.
  • #11
    Quote from RafaelK
    That's a strawman, though. It has haste WHEN you need it, indestructible WHEN you need it. If you don't need them, it costs 5 (realistically, you will want to either haste it or have the mana open for indestructible on the turn you play it, so it should count as a 6 drop, but acting like it is a 7 drop is silly).


    Granted. However, those two abilities are it's two major points that make it worth considering over other possible candidates, and they are particularly significant the first turn you play them. Haste, in most practical applications, is only significant the first turn you play it. So, you have two different creatures available to you to begin with:

    Thornling - :3mana::symg::symg::symg:
    Creature - Shapeshifter

    Haste
    :symg:: Thornling becomes indestructible until end of turn.
    :symg:: Thornling gains trample until end of turn.
    :1mana:: Thornling gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
    :1mana:: Thornling gets -1/+1 until end of turn.

    4/4

    Where it competes with Cloudthresher

    and

    Thornling - :3mana::symg::symg:
    Creature - Shapeshifter

    :symg:: Thornling becomes indestructible until end of turn.
    :symg:: Thornling gains trample until end of turn.
    :1mana:: Thornling gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
    :1mana:: Thornling gets -1/+1 until end of turn.

    4/4

    Where it competes with Oversoul of Dusk

    -

    Now, inspite of what I'm saying. Thornling is a threat once he's out, and any player who does not want to take a beating will want to remove it immediately. Unless that player is white or blue, that means you're going to want to leave at least one mana open after casting it with which to protect it. So, even though it's a five drop originally, you will still need to treat it as a six drop at least if you want to keep it long enough to do anything with it. If you're factoring haste into the card's strength, you have to treat it as a seven drop.

    The main problem is the two cards I mentioned above do what Thornling does much, much better. For the same cost as the Thornling with Haste, you can play Cloudthresher at the end of your opponent's turn where you can ensure you'll be able to untap with it in play and that nothing major (probably) will happen to it before it gets to attack. It doesn't get to become indestructible, true, but in exchange it gets +3/+3 (Something you'd have to pay 9 more for, in Thornling's case), it wipes the board of faeries (which is significant since Faeries is still a top-tier deck), it deals 2 more to your opponent (which brings the amount of damage it can do on your first turn to two more than Thornling can do even on 6GGG mana,) and it has the versatility of being able to be an instant speed Hurricane for 2 at 2GG. It really has only one perk in that you can make it have evasion (at the cost of yet another mana,) and even then, if you're playing Cloudthresher at the end of an opponent's turn, it's unlikely he prepared for it.

    If you don't use it with haste, then it compares with Oversoul of Dusk, and though it can't become a 7/1, Oversoul does everything else Thornling does far better. The removal used in Standard's current top decks are as follows:

    Ajani Vengeant
    Agony Warp
    Bant Charm
    Cryptic Command
    Cruel Ultimatum
    Condemn
    Flame Javelin
    Grixis Charm
    Incinerate
    Puncture Blast
    Sower of Temptation
    Terror
    Unmake
    Wrath of God

    Of those cards, Thornling can be affected by:

    Ajani Vengeant (lock-down)
    Agony Warp
    Bant Charm
    Cryptic Command
    Cruel Ultimatum
    Condemn
    Grixis Charm
    Puncture Blast
    Sower of Temptation
    Unmake

    Meanwhile, the Oversoul can be affected only by:

    Condemn
    Wrath of God

    That's an enormous difference, and the Oversoul does it all for one mana less than Thornling does. What's more, it also gets it's evasion for 1 mana less than Thornling does, and it effects more of the creatures in competitive standard more completely. The only deck against which Thornling's trample would be more desirable is against Kithkin, and in those decks he'd be taken out while Oversoul would still be able to exist as a 5/5.

    Really, while the apparent versatility of Thornling seems appealing, any mode you would choose with it just pales far in comparison to other options that are presently used that do it better and for less mana. The ability to switch "specs," as it were, is simply not worth running one of these better candidates in a deck.
    Winner of the March CCL Contest
  • #12
    It smashes Oversoul just based on having trample and the ability to grow to a higher power.

    Oh yeah, and there's the point that Oversoul goes away and cries when faced with Chameleon Colossus (and other green and/or white creatures) and Thornling does not. I hear that green and white creatures, like, exist.

    And Thornling is playable in more color combinations.

    Cloudthresher is obviously the harder comparison for raw power, since Cloudthresher is kind of ridiculous.

    The thing is, though, Morphling wasn't the biggest baddest finisher available to old control decks either. It was used because once it was on the table and untapped it could largely take care of itself (shroud) and push damage through (flying, pump abilities) without further cards. Thornling, with trample and indestructible on top of the pump, is actually better for those than Morphling. You don't play Thornling as the biggest hitter in the park, you play Thornling as a control deck finisher because once you drop it with mana open it is unstoppable.

    There might well not be a deck for it, at least until Lorwyn rotates out, but no indestructible trampler is ever, ever bad, and it certainly beats the pants off Oversoul.
  • #13
    Quote from RafaelK
    It smashes Oversoul just based on having trample and the ability to grow to a higher power.

    Oh yeah, and there's the point that Oversoul goes away and cries when faced with Chameleon Colossus (and other green and/or white creatures) and Thornling does not. I hear that green and white creatures, like, exist.

    And Thornling is playable in more color combinations.

    Cloudthresher is obviously the harder comparison for raw power, since Cloudthresher is kind of ridiculous.

    The thing is, though, Morphling wasn't the biggest baddest finisher available to old control decks either. It was used because once it was on the table and untapped it could largely take care of itself (shroud) and push damage through (flying, pump abilities) without further cards. Thornling, with trample and indestructible on top of the pump, is actually better for those than Morphling. You don't play Thornling as the biggest hitter in the park, you play Thornling as a control deck finisher because once you drop it with mana open it is unstoppable.

    There might well not be a deck for it, at least until Lorwyn rotates out, but no indestructible trampler is ever, ever bad, and it certainly beats the pants off Oversoul.


    I'm glad someone aggres with me on the power of this card, and thanks for posting almost the exact same thing I was going to.
  • #14
    Remember that Protection keeps Oversoul from being blocked except by white or green creatures. The primary creatures in standard, along with the damage that gets through when that creature would block, are:


    Knight of Meadowgrain
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Tidehollow Sculler
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Stillmoon Cavalier
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Cloudgoat Ranger
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 0, max 1 for 3GG
    Burrenton Forge-Tender
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Figure of Destiny
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: Usually 0, max 3 for 3GG
    Kitchen Finks
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Mogg Fanatic
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Murderous Redcap
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Ranger of Eos
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Reveillark
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 1 for GG, max 4 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Siege-Gang Commander
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 0, max 2 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Mistbind Clique
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 0, max 3 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Scion of Oona
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Sower of Temptation
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Spellstutter Sprite
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Vendilion Clique
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Cloudthresher
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 0
    Mulldrifter
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Nucklavee
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 0, max 3 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Oona, Queen of the Fae
    Oversoul: 5
    Thornling: 0, max 2 for 3 :symg::symg:
    Goldmeadow Stalwart
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Wizened Cenn
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Painter's Servant
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling 1 for :symg:, max 4 for 3GG
    Oversoul of Dusk
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 0, max 2 for 3GG
    Wispmare
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 1 for :symg:, max 4 for 3GG
    Akrasan Squire
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 3 for :symg:, max 6 for 3GG
    Knight of the White Orchid
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    Sigiled Paladin
    Oversoul: 0
    Thornling: 2 for :symg:, max 5 for 3GG
    -
    So, the averages:

    Oversoul will, on average, deal 2.48 damage when it attacks, or about 5 damage every two attacks. It does this for free.
    Thornling will, on average, deal 1.58 damage when it attacks, or about 3 damage every two attacks, spending green mana more to do so. It will also do, on average for 3GG an attack, 4.31 damage, or about 9 damage every two attacks.

    This is assuming that the blocking creatures are alone on the field (with the exception for creatures that bring along their own buddies, in which case it assumes the tokens and the creature block as one,) and as such are unenhanced like Goldmeadow Stalwart which frequently would be. It also assumes Figure of Destiny is a 4/4, and that Thornling will have not been killed by the 5-times-more-removal-with-it's-name-on-it before it can blink.
    Winner of the March CCL Contest
  • #15
    It's the cheapest creature with indestructible on it.

    It's better against green or white than oversoul of dusk.

    But it's worse against blue, black, or red than oversoul of dusk.



    In all the green and red decks I've ever seen in history, no beatdown creature (regardless of special abilities) ever seemed to make the constructed cut, unless it had competitive power/cmc stats. 4 power for 5 cmc works in a "finesse" deck, but I just can't see how it would work in beatdown. No matter how you slice it, you're paying 7 to get a 6 damage, and then two more every turn to keep it 7.

    If you have mana to pump the 3/3 for 5... you want to be using that mana to cast another creature.

    -

    What if we call thornling a 6/2 trample indestructible creature with a casting cost of 4GG, and an upkeep of 2GG? How about looking at it that way?

    Hmmmmm... maybe that is the best way to approximate it's impact.
    Last edited by dcartist: 1/15/2009 11:56:25 PM
  • #16
    Other than Finks, Garruk, and Thornling, are there any other good green / white critters that survive Wrath of God? Or that have good synergy with it (leaves-play abilities, etc.)? Also artifact or easily splashed creatures might be of interest.

    @ Alabran: Your list is incredibly misleading, especially when you list pseudo-removal like tap effects and things that can "effect" Thornling, while leaving off two of the most important cards: O-ring and PTE. A fairer list of removal that functions as a legitimate solution to Thornling (assuming you have open mana) would be:

    Bant Charm
    Condemn
    Puncture Blast
    Unmake
    Oblivion Ring
    Path to Eternity

    Versus the Oversoul, which is removed by:

    Condemn
    Oblivion Ring
    Path to Eternity
    Wrath of God

    As a general rule, both are susceptible to white removal, and fairly resilient to anything else. The Oversoul is definitely the harder of the two to remove...and he's definitely less susceptible to combat tricks. However, Oversoul doesn't live through sweepers like Wog or Scourglass or Martial Coup, doesn't trample, and is generally much worse in matchups against white or green because of that. Also, he can be killed by white or green creatures, while Thornling just marches on through.

    I'm not trying to say that Thornling is strictly better than Oversoul...but I am trying to say that the comparison is much closer than you give it credit.
    Last edited by Goryus: 1/16/2009 6:09:05 PM
    If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?

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  • #17
    Quote from Alabran
    If you don't use it with haste, then it compares with Oversoul of Dusk, and though it can't become a 7/1, Oversoul does everything else Thornling does far better. The removal used in Standard's current top decks are as follows:

    Ajani Vengeant
    Agony Warp
    Bant Charm
    Cryptic Command
    Cruel Ultimatum
    Condemn
    Flame Javelin
    Grixis Charm
    Incinerate
    Puncture Blast
    Sower of Temptation
    Terror
    Unmake
    Wrath of God

    Of those cards, Thornling can be affected by:

    Ajani Vengeant (lock-down)
    Agony Warp
    Bant Charm
    Cryptic Command
    Cruel Ultimatum
    Condemn
    Grixis Charm
    Puncture Blast
    Sower of Temptation
    Unmake

    Meanwhile, the Oversoul can be affected only by:

    Condemn
    Wrath of God



    Sorry, I have to correct you on this one. Oversoul CAN be affected by Cruel Ultimatum, as it doesn't target and is a sac effect. You're also missing oblivion ring from the most used removal spell list.
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  • #18
    Quote from Goryus
    Other than Finks, Garruk, and Thornling, are there any other good green / white critters that survive Wrath of God? Or that have good synergy with it (leaves-play abilities, etc.)? Also artifact or easily splashed creatures might be of interest.

    @ Alabran: Your list is incredibly misleading, especially when you list pseudo-removal like tap effects and things that can "effect" Thornling, while leaving off two of the most important cards: O-ring and PTE. A fairer list of removal that functions as a legitimate solution to Thornling (assuming you have open mana) would be:

    Bant Charm
    Condemn
    Puncture Blast
    Unmake
    Oblivion Ring
    Path to Eternity

    Versus the Oversoul, which is removed by:

    Condemn
    Oblivion Ring
    Path to Eternity
    Wrath of God

    As a general rule, both are susceptible to white removal, and fairly resilient to anything else. The Oversoul is definitely the harder of the two to remove...and he's definitely less susceptible to combat tricks. However, Oversoul doesn't live through sweepers like Wog or Scourglass or Martial Coup, doesn't trample, and is generally much worse in matchups against white or green because of that. Also, he can be killed by white or green creatures, while Thornling just marches on through.

    I'm not trying to say that Thornling is strictly better than Oversoul...but I am trying to say that the comparison is much closer than you give it credit.


    Regarding the list, I used all the removal within the top deck lists of the top five competitive decks from http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49. O-Ring was not among them. Though I was surprised it wasn't there, I didn't add it to the list because I'm dealing with it's behavior in competitive standard and it seems as though O-Ring is not a factor there. You're also right Azure, I forgot about that. I didn't consider conflux cards because they are not yet in standard, but if you want to we can. Your list was a bit off, too, Goryus. Yours is missing Ajani Vengeant, Agony Warp, Cryptic Command (which is significant), Grixis Charm, Puncture Blast, and Sower of Temptation.

    These are all significant, and they are all within the main deck of prime decklists. Though they can't outright kill the Thornling, it's likely that once you have the mana to manipulate Thornling, you'll start swinging with him for as big as you can get him, plus indestructible and trample. What, then, happens when, say, Agony Warp is cast? Would have have the 3 extra mana to bring it's toughness back up? If you did, is it really worth the staggering 6GG to attack and keep it alive? If so, would you still have the mana to protect him again during your opponent's turn? The oversoul is unaffected by those, and it costs it 0 to do.

    I'm not saying the Oversoul is strictly better than Thornling, either (we know, of course, there is no such thing.) However, when blocked by any one creature in the current meta, the Oversoul fared better. There simply aren't enough small white/green creatures to outweigh being able to cut clear through blue, black, or red. There is no leading deck in standard that is exclusively green/white, even mono-white kithkin uses Figure of Destiny (a major, major piece) and Unmake. And most other decks use more. Now, through paying 1GG to 3GG on each attack, Thornling would compare favorably in terms of damage, it again begs the question of whether one would rather spend that mana doing something else. It's worth noting that even if the Oversoul is blocked, the only two creatures presently used in standard that can kill it alone are itself and Cloudthresher.

    While there are situations where Thornling does perform better than the Oversoul, most of those situations are ultimately not desirable (such as leaving 6GG open so that you can attack with impunity.) Even then, this is a very removal driven format, and the only one that affects the Oversoul and not Thornling is Wrath of God, and there is only one major deck that uses it. Even G/W would use things such as Unmake, and Thornling would be vulnerable to it while the Oversoul would not be. The fragility and the addest cost in tempering that fagility for those few situations where Thornling, on it's own merits, is superior is simply not worth it when the Oversoul is superior in every other situation for free.
    Winner of the March CCL Contest
  • #19
    Oversoul is a fine card, and I thought I made it clear that we are in agreement about it being harder to remove (except versus white, where you trade susceptibility to Unmake for the potential to die from combat, and versus Green, where you risk running into Cloudthresher, pump spells, or a similar gang-block).

    But from my point of view, you are putting far too much emphasis on this contrived competition between the two cards for the "#1 removal dodger" slot. While Thornling does not win that competition, it does compare favorably, and it comes out ahead in other ways. Let's be honest - late game, in a control deck, you will rarely begrudge the mana. This is part of the reason why the "you have to keep paying mana" argument didn't work against the original Morphling, either.

    In addition, the "6GG" comparisons don't work, because your opponent will not always want to throw a creature in the way, and even when they do, the best play is not always to pump it all the way. Indestructible is not usually required to keep it alive, especially if they chump block with a token or small creature. It's better to give it trample, pump maybe once, and keep mana open in case they have a trick. Which costs only two mana to do, and prevents you from running into Agony Warp or the like. It also frees you up to use your mana for other purposes as necessary. Assuming sub-optimal play is not a fair way to judge the card, and it is exactly this flexibility that makes it so powerful. It is the threat of turning it into a 7/1 trample indestructible that is dangerous, much more so than the actual act.

    Also, the indestructible ability can be abused in other ways; far more significant than being immune to the opponent's Wrath, for example, is the fact that it lets you run Wrath yourself. As I've said, a mana ramp style deck featuring this, Finks, Garruk, and Wrath is potentially very strong.

    That said, I would like to renew my call for ideas for other creatures that could work with this suite - either green, white, artifact, or off-color-but-splashable. Anyone have any good ideas?
    If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?

    If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.

    If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
  • #20
    most probably i will pump him not at all. Only if my opponent is stupid enough to block him i put dmg on stack (4 damage is enough for most creatures) giving him indest for :symg:. If my opp then wants to play some -x/-x is still got enough mana to pump his thoughness.
    If he lets him through I dont need trample nor indest saving another :symg::symg: and just pay 2 mana to give my opponent 6 damage. Leaving more than enough mana for other stuff.
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  • #21
    Quote from Goryus
    Let's be honest - late game, in a control deck, you will rarely begrudge the mana. This is part of the reason why the "you have to keep paying mana" argument didn't work against the original Morphling, either.

    Exactly.

    But you're proving the case for why it doesn't work in constructed.

    He needs a green control deck that has a way to avoid taking tons of damage in the early and mid game...

    Then late game, it needs to want to finish with the thornling, and isn't trying to use its mana to cast other stuff...

    A very large percentage of constructed games are close to over or "decided" by the time thornling hits the board, so the "thornling deck" has to somehow make sense, stall, or do something with it's mana that keeps it from dying before thornling hits the board.

    If you cast garruk turn 5, and you draw garruk turn 6, then what's the opponent doing? standing around with his pud in his hand waiting for you to "set up thornling for his big finish"?

    You're swinging with P/T in creatures >= total maximum mana spendable by that point.

    he only makes sense in a weird control deck, and he doesnt synergize with such a deck.
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