A combo deck is a deck that's sole purpose is to either stall until it can cast a combination of spells to win t he game (or sift for those cards instead of stalling with counters and stuff). Combo decks are things like Dragonstorm, TEPS, Heartbeat, or a deck casts Djinn Illuminatus and infinitely replicates Pact of the Titan with Anger in the graveyard. Combo decks "combo out" and either through an infinite combo or a series of spells win the game in one turn with cards that had usually not been in play yet.
Decks that lock your opponent down such as Pickles, Scepter Chant, or Balancing Tings are NOT combo decks. Locking down your opponent so that you can win slowly over time is control. When a combo deck does what it is supposed to, the game ends immediately. When a control deck does what it is supposed to, there are still ways out. Even the "hard lock" of Teferi + Scepter/Chant can be broken (A foolish has exactly 3 mana left to chant with kicker during an opponent's upkeep and the opponent cycles Complicate to counter it and Wrath Teferi away). Disrupting a combo deck normally results in both players continuing to play the game, whereas disrupting a combo deck that's trying to go off makes them concede.
I guess the main point here is "Just because a deck has a combo in it does not mean the deck itself is a combo deck". Vesuvan Shapeshifter with Calciderm is a combo (untargetable 5/5 creature with no vanishing clock to worry about), but you would never call a deck a combo deck for playing that.
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Wait, are you saying you haven't even played with this card? Oh man, you're farther gone than I thought.
I've played this card in maybe a hundred games in three or four different decks. It works.
now you're just being silly. way to rile'em up, baggy.:p
How can you say tehre are only 2 combo decks in the Format? Thats not true just when you add in Project X, let alone the stragling Walk the Aeons Decks and the such.
Also U/G Pickletron is VERY much a combo deck. You just play everything until you can Chord for the missing combo piece, then you win. that deck is all about getting your pieces on the board, and shutting the game down that turn. Sounds pretty combo to me. it only runs 6 counters, and only runs some 7 or 8 creatures. I dont see how it can be classified as control or Aggro.
So you know, Ive run UG Pickletron several times, so Im not talking out my butt here.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
i personally think this cards overrated. even in combo decks. life is a resource and should not be looked down upon. several games against gruul+boros while suing dstorm. i was downto less than 5 life. if i cycled street wraith. many of those games i might have lost. its the same in all format. there is always aggro decks. and ur life is no different from mana. its a resource and might cost u to lose if u use it wrong
Talking about exaggeration. Does it work?? How much does your deck improved?
Why would that be an exaggeration? It was in the first deck I made on the day the Future Sight patch for MWS came out, and I've tried it in several decks since.
Tell us, as you have tested it so thoroughly, how many times did you win thanks to Street Wraith, and how many did you lost because of it? Which problems did you find when playing it, and which advantages didnt you expect?
Well, I think you know that it's hard to chalk a win up to Street Wraith, but it's also hard to chalk wins up to lots of good cards. If you consider, though, every game that was looking dicey that I pulled off due to a lucky draw that would have been a card or two too late to save me if not for Street Wraith, the answer might be ten or twelve. It would be more fair to only count the ones where I played Street Wraith when I couldn't have spared the mana for the best cantrip/draw in the colors I was playing, in which case that number is probably around four.
I can say definitively, though, that it has never cost me a game. And yes, I'd be able to tell; I've never lost by an amount of life less than or equal to what I've given to Street Wraiths.
I haven't had any unexpected problems or benefits. It does exactly what I thought it would do.
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Why i knew you were going to say it works perfectly and has no drawbacks... nah, discussing with you is wasting the time; i've seen enough threads in which you post, and in no one you can accept anything from other people, which that means:
- Or you're god and are always right.
- Or you're quite close-minded and isnt worth trying to reason with you.
What? I'm only speaking from my own experience. If you have tried the card and had different results, by all means post them.
BTW, have you considered what would have happened if you draw the cards you cut for street wraith? (It was just a thought, you dont have to reply, i know you have considered them, and everything has been better with Street Wraith,... and yes, i'm putting words in your mouth, it is called irony)
That's not actually what irony is.
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Yeah, Irony is having ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife.
Seriously though, Ive seen the people that say its good post up results with it, and the people that say its bad do nothing of the sort, lets see the results nay sayers. Convince me to hate on this card.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Just wanted to chime in with my own thoughts on the card - I would assume, from reading it, that it would work best in decks that either
1. don't care about thier life total
or
2. need more cards
Looking at that list, I can't really see a good reason to argue against it. Running them in UW control, even - would you want to start a game down 2 life, but with an extra card? It sounds nice to me.
I'll need to test to be sure, but ... eh.
I could see them not being run in really tight decks that don't run analogues, and need the slots [mystical teachings engine?]. Otherwise, they sound like a smart [if not automatic] throw-in.
Also, I quote [by proxy] the entirety of Thrawnkkar's post.
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my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
I wish I had more experience playing with the card than I have, then I could make a better assessment of it. I played it in one deck though, and it's the only deck I've seen ANYONE play it in in standard really. UB dredge. As far as I'm concerned Street Wraith says Pay 2 life - Dredge. That seems fine to me in a deck that rarely has any mana to spend on its card draw. If you've ever played a dredge deck you will know that the decision to dredge or gamble drawing a card off the top is difficult. Cantrips (and of course Thought Courier effects) make that decision infinitely easier. I've found that the two best choices for the cantrip in this deck are Street Wraith and ::drumroll:: QUICKEN! Before you flame me for playing quicken though, check this scenario:
Its my upkeep. I dredge a Golgari Grave-Troll putting my third Bridge from Below and a Dread Return in my yard. After the drege my opponent sacrifices a Loxodon Hierarch to RFG the Bridges so that I can't get to the main phase and flashback the Dread Return, netting nine free zombies.
So I Quicken and flash it back right there in my upkeep. The funny thing was that the cantrip let me dredge the fourth bridge into my yard along with a Flame-kin Zealot for the win.
Back to my point though. Cantrips are great for this deck. Free ones like Street Wraith are even better.
EDIT: Also the Wraith is relevant as another creature in the yard to pump a Grave-Troll
I wish I had more experience playing with the card than I have, then I could make a better assessment of it. I played it in one deck though, and it's the only deck I've seen ANYONE play it in in standard really. UB dredge. As far as I'm concerned Street Wraith says Pay 2 life - Dredge. That seems fine to me in a deck that rarely has any mana to spend on its card draw. If you've ever played a dredge deck you will know that the decision to dredge or gamble drawing a card off the top is difficult. Cantrips (and of course Thought Courier effects) make that decision infinitely easier. I've found that the two best choices for the cantrip in this deck are Street Wraith and ::drumroll:: QUICKEN! Before you flame me for playing quicken though, check this scenario:
Its my upkeep. I dredge a Golgari Grave-Troll putting my third Bridge from Below and a Dread Return in my yard. After the drege my opponent sacrifices a Loxodon Hierarch to RFG the Bridges so that I can't get to the main phase and flashback the Dread Return, netting nine free zombies.
So I Quicken and flash it back right there in my upkeep. The funny thing was that the cantrip let me dredge the fourth bridge into my yard along with a Flame-kin Zealot for the win.
Back to my point though. Cantrips are great for this deck. Free ones like Street Wraith are even better.
EDIT: Also the Wraith is relevant as another creature in the yard to pump a Grave-Troll
Before what's his face chimes in to say "See! People run Quicken," my claim wasn't that people don't run it, but that running it JUST to cast it on turn 1 for the cantrip is a waste of a card slot. A card slot that could be used up by Street Wraith.
A combo deck is a deck that's sole purpose is to either stall until it can cast a combination of spells to win t he game (or sift for those cards instead of stalling with counters and stuff). Combo decks are things like Dragonstorm, TEPS, Heartbeat, or a deck casts Djinn Illuminatus and infinitely replicates Pact of the Titan with Anger in the graveyard. Combo decks "combo out" and either through an infinite combo or a series of spells win the game in one turn with cards that had usually not been in play yet.
Decks that lock your opponent down such as Pickles, Scepter Chant, or Balancing Tings are NOT combo decks. Locking down your opponent so that you can win slowly over time is control. When a combo deck does what it is supposed to, the game ends immediately. When a control deck does what it is supposed to, there are still ways out. Even the "hard lock" of Teferi + Scepter/Chant can be broken (A foolish has exactly 3 mana left to chant with kicker during an opponent's upkeep and the opponent cycles Complicate to counter it and Wrath Teferi away). Disrupting a combo deck normally results in both players continuing to play the game, whereas disrupting a combo deck that's trying to go off makes them concede.
I guess the main point here is "Just because a deck has a combo in it does not mean the deck itself is a combo deck". Vesuvan Shapeshifter with Calciderm is a combo (untargetable 5/5 creature with no vanishing clock to worry about), but you would never call a deck a combo deck for playing that.
I'm inclined to disagree with you. Many combo decks do NOT win the turn they "go off" (for a classic example, see Life.dec or in Standard, Project-X). Stasis, Kismet, Temporal Adept is a combo that will win you the game by decking your opponent over a HUGE number of turns. "Prison" decks like stasis and pickles are Combo-Control. They are control decks that seek to win by a lock-combo that shuts your opponent out of the game.
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BTW, have you considered what would have happened if you draw the cards you cut for street wraith?
For the last time: it's not the same as cutting cards for a different spell. You don't really give up another spell when you draw it. You just lose 2 life. In fact, it makes your draws of cards you want more consistent.
I'm inclined to disagree with you. Many combo decks do NOT win the turn they "go off" (for a classic example, see Life.dec or in Standard, Project-X). Stasis, Kismet, Temporal Adept is a combo that will win you the game by decking your opponent over a HUGE number of turns. "Prison" decks like stasis and pickles are Combo-Control. They are control decks that seek to win by a lock-combo that shuts your opponent out of the game.
Your use of the term "Prison" decks shows that apparently things like Turbo Stasis (And I guess Scepter Chant which I had labeled control before) are prison decks, not combo decks. I'd be more comfortable with that labeling than calling any sort of lockdown a combo.
As for Life.dec and I supposed Project-X (Though many builds do win the turn they go off, but I've seen the ones that gain life too), it's a de facto win. When your combo goes off and you gain infinite life, most opponents concede right there. Some will wait until it's established that you won't ever be decked, but the actions of the combo in that 1 turn have decided the outcome of the game. This is different from prison decks because you can break out of ANY prison deck (EOT triple Elvish Spirit Guide/Krosan Grip breaks the stasis lock, and you're going to draw your whole deck during that game so I can assure you the situation will come up), but nothing stops infinite life. If Life.dec goes off, there are almost no ways to beat it aside from 1. a card that says "you win" on it like Battle of Wits 2. a card that says "You lose" on it like Door to Nothingness 3. Infinite damage combo (you have to name a number, not infinity so PLEASE don't say infinity-infinity!=0) 4. poison.
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...This is different from prison decks because you can break out of ANY prison deck (EOT triple Elvish Spirit Guide/Krosan Grip breaks the stasis lock, and you're going to draw your whole deck during that game so I can assure you the situation will come up), but nothing stops infinite life...
What about a lockdown via Volrath's Dungeon and recurringChittering Rats? Or the more mainstream Zur's Wierding, using something like the Dungeon to strip the opponent's hand? I've seen a few decks like this, and they're unbreakable, as you have no hand ever for the rest of the game.
Combo is short for combination, meaning a combination of cards, meaning these cards work together to help you win the game. So yes, prison decks are combo decks. Combo decks do not always win the game in one turn, especially noticeable in lockdown combos, where very often the lock isn't entirely established in the same turn.
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
3. Infinite damage combo (you have to name a number, not infinity so PLEASE don't say infinity-infinity!=0) 4. poison.
They can't gain "infinite" life and you can't deal "infinite" damage. If your opponent tells you their combo goes on to infinity, they just drew the game (I believe this is what the DCI floor rules say, but I'm far more certain about the following: ). In any infinite, stoppable process, you must eventually pick a number of times it repeats, and end it. So say your opponent decides to gain a googol life points. Then it would suffice for your deck to deal a googol + 1 damage (although I'd personally go with 2 x a googol) to your opponent if you have some sort of infinitely loopable damage dealing combo.
Edit: You know, I read all that and then I realized you had an ! in front of the =. Well, think of this as less directed at you and more of a comment explaining the process a little further. Sorry 'bout that.
Not all decks will run it. Some decks should be running Bauble, but arent....but some decks need all their cards for specific purposes. The other alternative is to use more one-ofs, but it can mess with your numbers. So this isnt like every deck will want these
They can't gain "infinite" life and you can't deal "infinite" damage. If your opponent tells you their combo goes on to infinity, they just drew the game (I believe this is what the DCI floor rules say, but I'm far more certain about the following: ). In any infinite, stoppable process, you must eventually pick a number of times it repeats, and end it. So say your opponent decides to gain a googol life points. Then it would suffice for your deck to deal a googol + 1 damage (although I'd personally go with 2 x a googol) to your opponent if you have some sort of infinitely loopable damage dealing combo.
Edit: You know, I read all that and then I realized you had an ! in front of the =. Well, think of this as less directed at you and more of a comment explaining the process a little further. Sorry 'bout that.
-E
Very glad you had the edit there since I specifically said you have to pick a number, lol. But no, the DCI floor rules say nothing about it drawing because you CAN'T make it go on for infinity by choice. If the loop can be stopped and is controlled by one player then they pick a number of iterations and move on. It's a draw if the loop can't be broken out of (3 faceless devourers with no other shadow creatures) or if the loop is being sustained by both players and neither refuse to break it (normally because doing so would be VERY bad, possibly game ending, for them) then it's a draw.
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Very glad you had the edit there since I specifically said you have to pick a number, lol. But no, the DCI floor rules say nothing about it drawing because you CAN'T make it go on for infinity by choice.
What he's talking about is an actual infinite loop that isn't breakable and doesn't cause a player to lose the game (or doesn't give an opportunity for state-based effects to be checked. For example, a Coalhauler Swine enchanted with Blessing of Leeches and Pariah forms an infinite loop that can't end until your opponent is dead or the Swine is removed. If neither player is able or wants to remove it, and your opponent has a Platinum Angel or similar effect, the combo loops indefinitely and the game ends in a draw.
Edit: looks like it's a banner day for people not reading your whole posts before responding to them. Sorry about that. Consider this further explanation for other people just like above, I guess.
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What he's talking about is an actual infinite loop that isn't breakable and doesn't cause a player to lose the game (or doesn't give an opportunity for state-based effects to be checked. For example, a Coalhauler Swine enchanted with Blessing of Leeches and Pariah forms an infinite loop that can't end until your opponent is dead or the Swine is removed. If neither player is able or wants to remove it, and your opponent has a Platinum Angel or similar effect, the combo loops indefinitely and the game ends in a draw.
Edit: looks like it's a banner day for people not reading your whole posts before responding to them. Sorry about that. Consider this further explanation for other people just like above, I guess.
that's not actually an unbounded loop. you can choose not to regenerate the coalhauler swine, meaning if there's a platinum angel out, the combo loops till you do not pay 0 mana to regenerate the swine, and the swine dies. regenerating is an option
for an example of a non optional game loop that will end the game in a tie: transcendence + False Cure + any effect that deals damage or gives life
the two cards continually trigger each other and the game is unable to continue, ending it in a draw
that's not actually an unbounded loop. you can choose not to regenerate the coalhauler swine, meaning if there's a platinum angel out, the combo loops till you do not pay 0 mana to regenerate the swine, and the swine dies. regenerating is an option
Sorry, what I mean is that that loop goes on indefinitely if you don't stop it without ending the game, which means you have a draw if you want it.
for an example of a non optional game loop that will end the game in a tie: transcendence + False Cure + any effect that deals damage or gives life
the two cards continually trigger each other and the game is unable to continue, ending it in a draw
Well no, someone could DisenchantTranscendence in between. There's nearly always a theoretical way to break out of these loops, but if they don't end the game on their own, you don't have to break them, hence the draw.
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I think a better way to say it is that if the loop includes optional actions, you will eventually have to stop doing at least one of those optional actions.
In the case of Blessing of Leeches, the loop will stop unless you take the optional step of playing the Blessing's ability. So once the loop starts, you'll say "OK, I'm going to do this 350,000 times," and then the game proceeds from there.
In the case where the Swine is indestructible, the loop contains no optional actions, and will repeat over and over on its own - drawing the game. In this case you do not have to break it if you don't want to.
Rule cite:
421.2. If [an "infinite"] loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first.
On Street Wraith: From what I read of Bags's posts, he's got the right idea: in exchange for life, Street Wraith allows you a 56-card deck (assuming they don't counter the cycling ability).
For a deck of any number of cards, the amount of land used is based on percentage. 60 card decks generally use a standard of two fifths land (24/60). With duals, fixing and a lower mana curve, that can drop.
So, when using Street Wraith, you design a 56 card deck with an amount of land appropriate to such a deck (the new 'two fifths' basis becomes 22.2/56), then add four Street Wraith as 'empty slots'. The beauty is, it can be used in any colour, and the 3/4 swampwalker is an alternate bonus for black.
Talking about specific decks, it mainly benefits dedicated combo builds. Dragonstorm doesn't benefit all that much because they want a high storm count and Sleight of Hand does this better, probably worth the mana to them. For decks that run tutors and want to draw their combo cards ASAP, Street Wraith is a fine inclusion.
Overall: for decks that edit DOWN to 60 cards, Street Wraith's not all that great. For decks that edit UP to 60 cards, its excellence merely depends on how you can handle the life loss, peaking at very excellent if you can take it.
Decks that lock your opponent down such as Pickles, Scepter Chant, or Balancing Tings are NOT combo decks. Locking down your opponent so that you can win slowly over time is control. When a combo deck does what it is supposed to, the game ends immediately. When a control deck does what it is supposed to, there are still ways out. Even the "hard lock" of Teferi + Scepter/Chant can be broken (A foolish has exactly 3 mana left to chant with kicker during an opponent's upkeep and the opponent cycles Complicate to counter it and Wrath Teferi away). Disrupting a combo deck normally results in both players continuing to play the game, whereas disrupting a combo deck that's trying to go off makes them concede.
I guess the main point here is "Just because a deck has a combo in it does not mean the deck itself is a combo deck". Vesuvan Shapeshifter with Calciderm is a combo (untargetable 5/5 creature with no vanishing clock to worry about), but you would never call a deck a combo deck for playing that.
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now you're just being silly. way to rile'em up, baggy.:p
and, umm, Street Wraith is dumb. rock on Fatal Frenzy!
Also U/G Pickletron is VERY much a combo deck. You just play everything until you can Chord for the missing combo piece, then you win. that deck is all about getting your pieces on the board, and shutting the game down that turn. Sounds pretty combo to me. it only runs 6 counters, and only runs some 7 or 8 creatures. I dont see how it can be classified as control or Aggro.
So you know, Ive run UG Pickletron several times, so Im not talking out my butt here.
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If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Why would that be an exaggeration? It was in the first deck I made on the day the Future Sight patch for MWS came out, and I've tried it in several decks since.
Well, I think you know that it's hard to chalk a win up to Street Wraith, but it's also hard to chalk wins up to lots of good cards. If you consider, though, every game that was looking dicey that I pulled off due to a lucky draw that would have been a card or two too late to save me if not for Street Wraith, the answer might be ten or twelve. It would be more fair to only count the ones where I played Street Wraith when I couldn't have spared the mana for the best cantrip/draw in the colors I was playing, in which case that number is probably around four.
I can say definitively, though, that it has never cost me a game. And yes, I'd be able to tell; I've never lost by an amount of life less than or equal to what I've given to Street Wraiths.
I haven't had any unexpected problems or benefits. It does exactly what I thought it would do.
What? I'm only speaking from my own experience. If you have tried the card and had different results, by all means post them.
That's not actually what irony is.
Yeah, Irony is having ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife.
Seriously though, Ive seen the people that say its good post up results with it, and the people that say its bad do nothing of the sort, lets see the results nay sayers. Convince me to hate on this card.
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If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
1. don't care about thier life total
or
2. need more cards
Looking at that list, I can't really see a good reason to argue against it. Running them in UW control, even - would you want to start a game down 2 life, but with an extra card? It sounds nice to me.
I'll need to test to be sure, but ... eh.
I could see them not being run in really tight decks that don't run analogues, and need the slots [mystical teachings engine?]. Otherwise, they sound like a smart [if not automatic] throw-in.
Also, I quote [by proxy] the entirety of Thrawnkkar's post.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Its my upkeep. I dredge a Golgari Grave-Troll putting my third Bridge from Below and a Dread Return in my yard. After the drege my opponent sacrifices a Loxodon Hierarch to RFG the Bridges so that I can't get to the main phase and flashback the Dread Return, netting nine free zombies.
So I Quicken and flash it back right there in my upkeep. The funny thing was that the cantrip let me dredge the fourth bridge into my yard along with a Flame-kin Zealot for the win.
Back to my point though. Cantrips are great for this deck. Free ones like Street Wraith are even better.
EDIT: Also the Wraith is relevant as another creature in the yard to pump a Grave-Troll
Before what's his face chimes in to say "See! People run Quicken," my claim wasn't that people don't run it, but that running it JUST to cast it on turn 1 for the cantrip is a waste of a card slot. A card slot that could be used up by Street Wraith.
-E
I'm inclined to disagree with you. Many combo decks do NOT win the turn they "go off" (for a classic example, see Life.dec or in Standard, Project-X). Stasis, Kismet, Temporal Adept is a combo that will win you the game by decking your opponent over a HUGE number of turns. "Prison" decks like stasis and pickles are Combo-Control. They are control decks that seek to win by a lock-combo that shuts your opponent out of the game.
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Your use of the term "Prison" decks shows that apparently things like Turbo Stasis (And I guess Scepter Chant which I had labeled control before) are prison decks, not combo decks. I'd be more comfortable with that labeling than calling any sort of lockdown a combo.
As for Life.dec and I supposed Project-X (Though many builds do win the turn they go off, but I've seen the ones that gain life too), it's a de facto win. When your combo goes off and you gain infinite life, most opponents concede right there. Some will wait until it's established that you won't ever be decked, but the actions of the combo in that 1 turn have decided the outcome of the game. This is different from prison decks because you can break out of ANY prison deck (EOT triple Elvish Spirit Guide/Krosan Grip breaks the stasis lock, and you're going to draw your whole deck during that game so I can assure you the situation will come up), but nothing stops infinite life. If Life.dec goes off, there are almost no ways to beat it aside from 1. a card that says "you win" on it like Battle of Wits 2. a card that says "You lose" on it like Door to Nothingness 3. Infinite damage combo (you have to name a number, not infinity so PLEASE don't say infinity-infinity!=0) 4. poison.
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What about a lockdown via Volrath's Dungeon and recurring Chittering Rats? Or the more mainstream Zur's Wierding, using something like the Dungeon to strip the opponent's hand? I've seen a few decks like this, and they're unbreakable, as you have no hand ever for the rest of the game.
Combo is short for combination, meaning a combination of cards, meaning these cards work together to help you win the game. So yes, prison decks are combo decks. Combo decks do not always win the game in one turn, especially noticeable in lockdown combos, where very often the lock isn't entirely established in the same turn.
They can't gain "infinite" life and you can't deal "infinite" damage. If your opponent tells you their combo goes on to infinity, they just drew the game (I believe this is what the DCI floor rules say, but I'm far more certain about the following: ). In any infinite, stoppable process, you must eventually pick a number of times it repeats, and end it. So say your opponent decides to gain a googol life points. Then it would suffice for your deck to deal a googol + 1 damage (although I'd personally go with 2 x a googol) to your opponent if you have some sort of infinitely loopable damage dealing combo.
Edit: You know, I read all that and then I realized you had an ! in front of the =. Well, think of this as less directed at you and more of a comment explaining the process a little further. Sorry 'bout that.
-E
:spam::spamlock::spam::spamlock::spam::spamlock:
<--never really understood this guy
Very glad you had the edit there since I specifically said you have to pick a number, lol. But no, the DCI floor rules say nothing about it drawing because you CAN'T make it go on for infinity by choice. If the loop can be stopped and is controlled by one player then they pick a number of iterations and move on. It's a draw if the loop can't be broken out of (3 faceless devourers with no other shadow creatures) or if the loop is being sustained by both players and neither refuse to break it (normally because doing so would be VERY bad, possibly game ending, for them) then it's a draw.
Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded.
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What he's talking about is an actual infinite loop that isn't breakable and doesn't cause a player to lose the game (or doesn't give an opportunity for state-based effects to be checked. For example, a Coalhauler Swine enchanted with Blessing of Leeches and Pariah forms an infinite loop that can't end until your opponent is dead or the Swine is removed. If neither player is able or wants to remove it, and your opponent has a Platinum Angel or similar effect, the combo loops indefinitely and the game ends in a draw.
Edit: looks like it's a banner day for people not reading your whole posts before responding to them. Sorry about that. Consider this further explanation for other people just like above, I guess.
that's not actually an unbounded loop. you can choose not to regenerate the coalhauler swine, meaning if there's a platinum angel out, the combo loops till you do not pay 0 mana to regenerate the swine, and the swine dies. regenerating is an option
for an example of a non optional game loop that will end the game in a tie:
transcendence + False Cure + any effect that deals damage or gives life
the two cards continually trigger each other and the game is unable to continue, ending it in a draw
Sorry, what I mean is that that loop goes on indefinitely if you don't stop it without ending the game, which means you have a draw if you want it.
Well no, someone could Disenchant Transcendence in between. There's nearly always a theoretical way to break out of these loops, but if they don't end the game on their own, you don't have to break them, hence the draw.
In the case of Blessing of Leeches, the loop will stop unless you take the optional step of playing the Blessing's ability. So once the loop starts, you'll say "OK, I'm going to do this 350,000 times," and then the game proceeds from there.
In the case where the Swine is indestructible, the loop contains no optional actions, and will repeat over and over on its own - drawing the game. In this case you do not have to break it if you don't want to.
Rule cite:
421.2. If [an "infinite"] loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first.
Generally they pay the five life and Volrath's Dungeon goes away.
For a deck of any number of cards, the amount of land used is based on percentage. 60 card decks generally use a standard of two fifths land (24/60). With duals, fixing and a lower mana curve, that can drop.
So, when using Street Wraith, you design a 56 card deck with an amount of land appropriate to such a deck (the new 'two fifths' basis becomes 22.2/56), then add four Street Wraith as 'empty slots'. The beauty is, it can be used in any colour, and the 3/4 swampwalker is an alternate bonus for black.
Talking about specific decks, it mainly benefits dedicated combo builds. Dragonstorm doesn't benefit all that much because they want a high storm count and Sleight of Hand does this better, probably worth the mana to them. For decks that run tutors and want to draw their combo cards ASAP, Street Wraith is a fine inclusion.
Overall: for decks that edit DOWN to 60 cards, Street Wraith's not all that great. For decks that edit UP to 60 cards, its excellence merely depends on how you can handle the life loss, peaking at very excellent if you can take it.
U Twinsanity
WUBRG Reaper King
UBG Dredge
UR Howling Owl
GBU Thief of Time