If you have to mulligan because your lands suck, and at least one of those lands is actually supposed to provide colored mana, the land in question probably needs to come out of the deck. You're a lot less likely to mulligan that same hand with a basic island in it.
It's an interesting point, though...how many UW decks running colorless mana lands are actually going to want to run the Nimbus Maze at all? Or conversely, if you run 4 Nimbus Maze, how many colorless lands can you afford to put in?
That's actually my 3rd-least favorite, too. River of Tears isn't even a dual: it's an alleged "super island" that sometimes isn't an island. I voted for Grove, because of the lifegain. Aggro decks have a much harder time playing against someone who starts with 25 life. Basic lands never looked so good.
I do like the other 2 duals, but one thing is clear. I won't be playing quite so much Standard when Ravnica rotates.
Actually, I'd probably be likely to keep that hand you'd mulligan here. 3 lands is fairly solid, and odds are I can hit either a signet, an island, or a plains in the next couple of turns, at which point I have access to BOTH colors of mana. And a Hallowed Fountain means I have UU and WW. If it was a basic land instead, I'd need the other color of mana (or a signet) in order to have acces to both colors, and a fountain means I only have UU or WW, but not access to both.
I mean sure, if your deck runs 4 flagstones, 4 adarkar wastes, 4 desert, 4 urza's factory, 4 hallowed fountain, 4 nimbus maze, that is obvious junk. But with a nice balance of basics and duals, with a couple of colorless lands, these are a great addition to the mana base.
As for the River of Tears not being a dual, it provides you the colors you need when you need them. The ONLY time it is worse than an island is when you have a turn one U drop at sorcery speed (read: just about never).
Grove is definitely the worst though, but only because of the color pair. Just like if the River was in any other color pair besides blue with white when you play a land, it would be worthless.
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I mean sure, if your deck runs 4 flagstones, 4 adarkar wastes, 4 desert, 4 urza's factory, 4 hallowed fountain, 4 nimbus maze, that is obvious junk. But with a nice balance of basics and duals, with a couple of colorless lands, these are a great addition to the mana base.
Just keep in mind hallowed fountains are only going to be around for another few months...(in T2). That is what biased me against the Nimbus the most.
Grove is still pretty good, it just requires a non-aggro deck. In something control (R/G Stormbind Control), I think it would work just fine.
As we all know, if a land that doesnt produce the mana you need is likely going to be a land you don't need. River of Tears fills this nitch almost. If you need black mana you had best have a land. Granted the other lands work a little different, while aggro players lament about life gain to thier opponent they actually seem to have the best land in terms of drawback.
Wildfire: You know, if you build the manabase right, you don't get screw. It's surprising, but jsut how I said a WB control deck doesn't need tron to be good, a WB deck doesn't need an assload of nonbasics either. I think that post Rav, it will be very acceptable to run 4 Mazes, 4 Desert, 4 Flagstones, and a factory as the total count for nonbasics.
And also, as Thrias pointed out, all it takes is the right deck.
Wildfire: You know, if you build the manabase right, you don't get screw. It's surprising, but jsut how I said a WB control deck doesn't need tron to be good, a WB deck doesn't need an assload of nonbasics either. I think that post Rav, it will be very acceptable to run 4 Mazes, 4 Desert, 4 Flagstones, and a factory as the total count for nonbasics.
And also, as Thrias pointed out, all it takes is the right deck.
I'm a big fan of you listiing 13 non-basics, being more than half the land base. And considering it not alot lol Good times
As we all know, if a land that doesnt produce the mana you need is likely going to be a land you don't need. River of Tears fills this nitch almost. If you need black mana you had best have a land. Granted the other lands work a little different, while aggro players lament about life gain to thier opponent they actually seem to have the best land in terms of drawback.
Some comments here:
1) Teferi/Dralnu is primarily a blue deck. River of Tears can be used to give you blue WHENEVER you need it except the first turn you play it on your turn. If you need blue from it on your own turn and one more mana, tap it, then play your other land.
2) Teferi/Dralnu primarily runs blue instants and black sorceries. This means that when the river will always produce blue (your opponent's turn) you will have the most to do with it. And when it can produce black (your own turn) this is when you need black too.
Basically, about 95% of the time, this is better than a basic island (the only exception being decks that have sorcery speed U or UU costing cards or decks that need basic islands to fuel things like Vedalken Shackles).
@Jaharu - Unless your mana base is 4 original duals, 4 rav duals, and all 16 appropriately colored fetchlands (or 24 lands that produce your mono-color), there WILL be colorscrew some games. It will happen. And with 13 non-basics in your deck, that means less than half of your lands will allow the Nimbus Maze to be more than just a colorless source. This is a bad thing, as it means that you will get color screwed significantly more often than if it were a dual like Adarkar Wastes, which could produce both colors when you need them all of the time.
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1) Teferi/Dralnu is primarily a blue deck. River of Tears can be used to give you blue WHENEVER you need it except the first turn you play it on your turn. If you need blue from it on your own turn and one more mana, tap it, then play your other land.
2) Teferi/Dralnu primarily runs blue instants and black sorceries. This means that when the river will always produce blue (your opponent's turn) you will have the most to do with it. And when it can produce black (your own turn) this is when you need black too.
It would be awesome if you read this thread, because those two arguments, while true about Dralnu, don't follow for why River of Tears helps them. And I do so hate repeating myself.
It would be awesome if you read this thread, because those two arguments, while true about Dralnu, don't follow for why River of Tears helps them. And I do so hate repeating myself.
-E
Because it will always give them painless blue and give them painless black on turns that they have a land to drop. I fail to see how you fail to see the upside of that.
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Because it will always give them painless blue and give them painless black on turns that they have a land to drop. I fail to see how you fail to see the upside of that.
It gives sorcery speed blue on turns you make a land drop. It really, really doesn't take much analysis to figure out why you'd want instant speed blue on your own turn. As I said, I've spoken at length about it.
I'm a big fan of you listiing 13 non-basics, being more than half the land base. And considering it not alot lol Good times
Cyriss
And only five do not directly produce colored mana.... Does that really seem like a handicap? Nine lands will not initially produce W or U, but dropping a second Flagstones or a Hollowed Fountain, and presto! Those Mazes look pretty good. Now, forgive my mathematical skills, but isn't nine-if not five-lands that produce coloreless instead of the double digit amounts of some prominant control decks look a little bit pleasing? I sure think so. And I hope anyone that knows how to use a calculator does as well.
Horizon Canopy is pretty spectacular. Nimbus Maze is fairly sweet, but overhyped.
The RB one is pretty good and should probably see play. I'm undecided on the River.
Grove of the Burnwillows is terrible. I'd probably rather play Steamflogger Boss in a RG deck. I opened one at the prerelease and immediately sold it for $2 to a guy next to me.
Because it will always give them painless blue and give them painless black on turns that they have a land to drop. I fail to see how you fail to see the upside of that.
If that's what it actually did, it would be a pretty decent card.
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I wouldn't rush to say River of Tears is so clearly the worst of the lot. On turn 1 in a UB deck it's great because it makes black mana. You don't do a lot on your first turn with blue mana. Also if you wanted to play an instant you can still do that. I can't get enough of Piracy Charm or Festering Goblin, and River of Tears gets you either on turn 1.
A few turns into the game, having a River of Tears in play is nice, almost like a painless dual land. It's problem is that if you draw it later than your first turn and you actually need blue mana you're delayed a turn. In a blue black deck getting black isn't hard at all, what with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. If you're so lucky as draw that Island is your best dual-land, sadly.
Don't get me wrong, I still think River of Tears is somewhere between "shamefuly" and "slightly" on the scale of bad cards, but I don't think it wins this prize.
I really don't think it is horizon canopy. Nimbus maze looks like it could be very useful, so not that either. Graven Cairns looks like it will be mt favourite, not just because of the colours. That leaves the grove and the river. The river looks like it might be semi-descent, but the grove looks like one of those cards I just wouldn't play because it is a land that helps your opponent. The grove wins this one to me.
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RTFC. It doesn't. Also turn 1 piracy charm aint that great. It CAN be good, but then so can Coalition Victory. Its a point of view and the deck its played in.
It actually does. Who casts piracy charm on their own turn?
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
My point was that if on your first turn you play River of Tears you can either use it to play a one cost black drop, or play an instant during the next turn. I thought I was being pretty clear, it always makes blue on the other guy's turn. I'll spell things more in the future.
It actually does. Who casts piracy charm on their own turn?
Well, I might if there was a 1-drop with an activated ability (likely considering the only time I can think that I'd ever think about playing Piracy Charm would be in limited) staring at me that I didn't want to go online.
There are no "always" situations in Magic. You don't "always" cast blue spells on other peoples' turns, you don't "always" want to trade off blue for black mana on your own turn. In general, you want to keep your options as open as possible.
My point was that there aren't a whole ton of impressive black instants you'll need to play during your opponent's turn, and most of blue's good stuff can be played during their turn. It can be made to work, unlike Nimbus Maze gets less and less useful the more non-basics you use. The only thing that makes Nimbus Maze good is a real dual land. Nimbus nearly requires that it's the only non-basic you use, and if the only land in your opening hand are Nimbus mazes you have to mulligan. I think Nimbus Maze wins the prize for it's being uncooperative with Flagstone, snow-duals, and so forth.
I'd say grove because it goes against the beliefs and playstyle of that color. River of tears is okay in the sense that it's strictly an island that can be a swamp at times. Just tap out for U before you put down the land and you're fine. On your opponents turn, you'll be wanting to save for draw-go and countermagic anyway.
Grove enables Kavu Predator. I'm still trying to work out the kinks to the deck, Fiery Justice is shifted. No, while grove isn't the best I don't think it's the worst.
River of tears - Seriously i don understand y ppl r hating river of tears SOOO much. Its basically an island dat can "help out" wif the colour fixing part.. its obviously better den an island in a UB deck.
Nimbus Maze - I hate dis card. Its ability is almost useless. So what if it lets u tap w when u hv an island? deres juz much better cards dat do de job. Imaging having 3 of dis in ur starting hand.. @.@
Graven Cairns - This is obviously the best card in de cycle. It doesnt require a Mountain to get B. U can even use BOP's or de painland's mana 2 activate its ability.
Horizon Canopy - other den de dmg part it rox. but would WG cares about dat few dmg? cycling a land when u dont need it is GOOD.
Grove of the Burnwillows - another card i don understand y so many ppl hate.. it will see play.. at least it will see more play den nimbus maze imo..
Has anyone really tested them out before just assuming?
I adored Nimbus Maze, only to find it was really a poor card in your opening hand without a hallowed fountain. Don't let Flagstones out of your deck because of this overrated card. So extensive testing in a strong u/w control deck has warranted this card inferior to most other options, in my case.
Does anyone have similiar personal test experiences with the others? Please share.
I don't see River of Tears as good, but I am not a draw-go player and really need to hear how it's been in testing before making a final judgement.
RB and GW I like, but after Ravnica rotates I see Horizon Canopy seeing much less play.
I really like the RG one, but people are just obsessed with RG being GRULL MUST CRUSH!.dec so they are overlooking it.
I'd say the worst one is Nimbus Maze, and after Rav rotates I'll frown upon Horizon Canopy.
i used river of tears in a block constructed tournament and it sucks! i cant use it to play sudden death in opponents turn. i got mana problems because of it, about 3x. but still manage a 3rd place finish, i would have been 1st if i can cast a sudden death earlier in my last game. but its probably better than an island.
This is obviously out of topic, but please speak english. It is even harder to understand you for someone whose native language isn't english
im srry, its juz dat im used 2 typing in short form n stuff lol.:p
i dont understand y u would say im "out of topic" i did say "Nimbus Maze - I hate dis card. Its ability is almost useless. So what if it lets u tap w when u hv an island? deres juz much better cards dat do de job. Imaging having 3 of dis in ur starting hand.. @.@" << u can see i mean "NIMBUS MAZE IS THE WORST DUALS IN FS"..lol
how is this even supposed to happen ??? this exemple is just absurd. If your deck is well build, you'll get UW turn two 19 times out of 20, and U W U/W turn 3 without losing any tempo or life.
wad about starting ur hand wif 2 nibus maze and a pain land or some non-basic land? it isnt impossible. NOTHING is impossible. its juz dat the chances of getting it is very small.
River of tears won't always produce what you want from it. Take it any way you want: you will most likely be sad you didn't play a painland instead half of the time.
stop criticising ROT. its juz a regular island that can fix ur colours sometimes.
oh and you know what? if you are saying my post is out of point, your post is out of point too.. please kindly re-read your own post. thank you very much.
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Actually, I'd probably be likely to keep that hand you'd mulligan here. 3 lands is fairly solid, and odds are I can hit either a signet, an island, or a plains in the next couple of turns, at which point I have access to BOTH colors of mana. And a Hallowed Fountain means I have UU and WW. If it was a basic land instead, I'd need the other color of mana (or a signet) in order to have acces to both colors, and a fountain means I only have UU or WW, but not access to both.
I mean sure, if your deck runs 4 flagstones, 4 adarkar wastes, 4 desert, 4 urza's factory, 4 hallowed fountain, 4 nimbus maze, that is obvious junk. But with a nice balance of basics and duals, with a couple of colorless lands, these are a great addition to the mana base.
As for the River of Tears not being a dual, it provides you the colors you need when you need them. The ONLY time it is worse than an island is when you have a turn one U drop at sorcery speed (read: just about never).
Grove is definitely the worst though, but only because of the color pair. Just like if the River was in any other color pair besides blue with white when you play a land, it would be worthless.
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Just keep in mind hallowed fountains are only going to be around for another few months...(in T2). That is what biased me against the Nimbus the most.
Grove is still pretty good, it just requires a non-aggro deck. In something control (R/G Stormbind Control), I think it would work just fine.
And also, as Thrias pointed out, all it takes is the right deck.
I'm a big fan of you listiing 13 non-basics, being more than half the land base. And considering it not alot lol Good times
Cyriss
Some comments here:
1) Teferi/Dralnu is primarily a blue deck. River of Tears can be used to give you blue WHENEVER you need it except the first turn you play it on your turn. If you need blue from it on your own turn and one more mana, tap it, then play your other land.
2) Teferi/Dralnu primarily runs blue instants and black sorceries. This means that when the river will always produce blue (your opponent's turn) you will have the most to do with it. And when it can produce black (your own turn) this is when you need black too.
Basically, about 95% of the time, this is better than a basic island (the only exception being decks that have sorcery speed U or UU costing cards or decks that need basic islands to fuel things like Vedalken Shackles).
@Jaharu - Unless your mana base is 4 original duals, 4 rav duals, and all 16 appropriately colored fetchlands (or 24 lands that produce your mono-color), there WILL be colorscrew some games. It will happen. And with 13 non-basics in your deck, that means less than half of your lands will allow the Nimbus Maze to be more than just a colorless source. This is a bad thing, as it means that you will get color screwed significantly more often than if it were a dual like Adarkar Wastes, which could produce both colors when you need them all of the time.
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It would be awesome if you read this thread, because those two arguments, while true about Dralnu, don't follow for why River of Tears helps them. And I do so hate repeating myself.
-E
Because it will always give them painless blue and give them painless black on turns that they have a land to drop. I fail to see how you fail to see the upside of that.
Hey, you. Yes, you reading this sig. Get off your computer, go find a copy of Skies of Arcadia: Legends and play it. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
It gives sorcery speed blue on turns you make a land drop. It really, really doesn't take much analysis to figure out why you'd want instant speed blue on your own turn. As I said, I've spoken at length about it.
-E
And only five do not directly produce colored mana.... Does that really seem like a handicap? Nine lands will not initially produce W or U, but dropping a second Flagstones or a Hollowed Fountain, and presto! Those Mazes look pretty good. Now, forgive my mathematical skills, but isn't nine-if not five-lands that produce coloreless instead of the double digit amounts of some prominant control decks look a little bit pleasing? I sure think so. And I hope anyone that knows how to use a calculator does as well.
The RB one is pretty good and should probably see play. I'm undecided on the River.
Grove of the Burnwillows is terrible. I'd probably rather play Steamflogger Boss in a RG deck. I opened one at the prerelease and immediately sold it for $2 to a guy next to me.
If that's what it actually did, it would be a pretty decent card.
A few turns into the game, having a River of Tears in play is nice, almost like a painless dual land. It's problem is that if you draw it later than your first turn and you actually need blue mana you're delayed a turn. In a blue black deck getting black isn't hard at all, what with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. If you're so lucky as draw that Island is your best dual-land, sadly.
Don't get me wrong, I still think River of Tears is somewhere between "shamefuly" and "slightly" on the scale of bad cards, but I don't think it wins this prize.
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RTFC. It doesn't. Also turn 1 piracy charm aint that great. It CAN be good, but then so can Coalition Victory. Its a point of view and the deck its played in.
It actually does. Who casts piracy charm on their own turn?
Well, I might if there was a 1-drop with an activated ability (likely considering the only time I can think that I'd ever think about playing Piracy Charm would be in limited) staring at me that I didn't want to go online.
There are no "always" situations in Magic. You don't "always" cast blue spells on other peoples' turns, you don't "always" want to trade off blue for black mana on your own turn. In general, you want to keep your options as open as possible.
-E
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Nimbus Maze - I hate dis card. Its ability is almost useless. So what if it lets u tap w when u hv an island? deres juz much better cards dat do de job. Imaging having 3 of dis in ur starting hand.. @.@
Graven Cairns - This is obviously the best card in de cycle. It doesnt require a Mountain to get B. U can even use BOP's or de painland's mana 2 activate its ability.
Horizon Canopy - other den de dmg part it rox. but would WG cares about dat few dmg? cycling a land when u dont need it is GOOD.
Grove of the Burnwillows - another card i don understand y so many ppl hate.. it will see play.. at least it will see more play den nimbus maze imo..
I adored Nimbus Maze, only to find it was really a poor card in your opening hand without a hallowed fountain. Don't let Flagstones out of your deck because of this overrated card. So extensive testing in a strong u/w control deck has warranted this card inferior to most other options, in my case.
Does anyone have similiar personal test experiences with the others? Please share.
I don't see River of Tears as good, but I am not a draw-go player and really need to hear how it's been in testing before making a final judgement.
RB and GW I like, but after Ravnica rotates I see Horizon Canopy seeing much less play.
I really like the RG one, but people are just obsessed with RG being GRULL MUST CRUSH!.dec so they are overlooking it.
I'd say the worst one is Nimbus Maze, and after Rav rotates I'll frown upon Horizon Canopy.
but i dont what wil be its impact in standard.
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im srry, its juz dat im used 2 typing in short form n stuff lol.:p
i dont understand y u would say im "out of topic" i did say "Nimbus Maze - I hate dis card. Its ability is almost useless. So what if it lets u tap w when u hv an island? deres juz much better cards dat do de job. Imaging having 3 of dis in ur starting hand.. @.@" << u can see i mean "NIMBUS MAZE IS THE WORST DUALS IN FS"..lol
wad about starting ur hand wif 2 nibus maze and a pain land or some non-basic land? it isnt impossible. NOTHING is impossible. its juz dat the chances of getting it is very small.
stop criticising ROT. its juz a regular island that can fix ur colours sometimes.
oh and you know what? if you are saying my post is out of point, your post is out of point too.. please kindly re-read your own post. thank you very much.