MaRo also explain this wonderfully with this post (that basically just confirm what I am saying here all the time):
Maro also explained that we would never have other IP in Magic, perhaps he's not the best person to be using for this particular argument. It's almost like his "views" changed when Hasbro forced them to make more money and they looked at the AAA video game industry and borrowed so many of their most hated things, like premium time limited skins. Also, the idea that using mythology (Greek/Roman for Theros) to create Magic ideas and lore is the same as copy/pasting stuff from another IP is a poor argument at best.
Yes, it's a poor argument, but the playerbase uses it all the time. When original Innistrad was announced, people were saying it was a Twilight rip-off, and waiting for the Edward, Bella and Jacob cards with their names filed off. Strixhaven Stadium HAD to be Quidditch, despite every other college sporting competition existing. The thing even looks like an NCAA American football arena, but no, it's the fictional flying broom sport.
Yes, it's a poor argument, but the playerbase uses it all the time. When original Innistrad was announced, people were saying it was a Twilight rip-off, and waiting for the Edward, Bella and Jacob cards with their names filed off. Strixhaven Stadium HAD to be Quidditch, despite every other college sporting competition existing. The thing even looks like an NCAA American football arena, but no, it's the fictional flying broom sport.
I think the Innistrad thing came about as at the time the set released vampire/werewolf media was rather popular and everywhere between Twilight, Underworld, Van Helsing, and more, it is one reason I find Innistrad lame as I'm generally tired of those creatures. Still a great plane nonetheless. Personally, I thought Strixhaven was going to be rife with Harry Potter as I greatly dislike Harry Potter, though I admit that was jumping the gun by a few months and I assumed greatly.
With that said, I'd much rather Magic take from other sources and make it their own rather than slapping another IP in the game for little reason other than money and trends.
Oh look at that, it did happen, and in fact quite a few times. I look forward to the "well things change" or "that was X years ago, it's different now" argument from you.
Very well. Now, a few things:
1) 2013 was a very different period for Magic. They were still experimenting with supplemental sets, and Standard was still the dominant format (today is commander, at least paper-magic). Which means they had much less options than today. It didn't exist the godzilla-treatment technology. They probably didn't think about that they could do both a non-IP and an IP version (exactly as happened in New Capenna with the Stranger Things crossover). They didn't know if they would put D&D universe inside Magic lore like they did with Rabiah or be able to put it outside without confusing players. But even then, even in the 2013 MaRo didn't even say that a D&D set would never belong to Magic, but that would be silver-border, exactly to avoid all the issues above. And as I proved in the other post, for MaRo "silver border" doesnt mean "it's not Magic" or "they are inferior Magic cards". They would be just part of the game in their own way, just like Commander, Planechase or Archenemy are also Magic in their own way.
2) People can change minds, and doesn't mean that the first opinion it's the right one to follow. About the color pie for example MaRo in his early years of Magic tought that black having fast mana with dark rituals or that blue doing direct damage with psychic flavor was ok (since he even did un-set version of those cards), simply because that was the current vision of the color pie in early Magic. In today Magic, black can only have rituals as a side effect of other spells and blue can never do direct damage at all. He is wrong now? No, the color pie, while still existing, changed, and thats healthy for the game future and evolution. At the same time, in the past the R&D tought that non-IP crossover couldn't be tournaments legal to not confuse players about Magic identity. But guess what. They matured, they changed, because Magic it's always about breaking his own rules outside of the Golden Trifecta. Magic is the first trading card game of history. It is already unique for many things and every other TCG that came later are just imitations of the real deal. It is not expanding his flavor to other IP that will stop to be Magic, because the most deepest and intimate things that makes Magic what it is, will always been the same, even if they assume forms that you, subjectively as a player don't like.
Sounds like you're trying to gatekeep me, and I thought you didn't like that?
Sounds like that as usual, you need a dictionary and try to make a sentence that make sense instead of using words at random, because as a functional illiterate, you fail to understand what you are reading. Greetings.
Until UB, Magic was, for the most part, a single connected universe both gameplay- and flavor-wise
To be fair, if we you use that parameter, not even the Unsets fits your personal criterias. (they also take place in they own multiverse and even the rules and mechanics are they own thing not working within our rule system). And one could argue that the flavor behind them it's so silly, being a parody of Magic, that also that could "ruin" the experience.
Yes, Un-Sets fall into that same realm, for me. However, until quite recently, I didn't have any problem with them. They used the Magic template, they were their own thing, and some of them were pretty funny in-jokes. But then Wizards made them black-border, and came up with the acorn stamp stuff. Maro will tell you his heart-wrenching story about how he was always so sad that Un-Cards weren't seen as real Magic cards and how the company was driven by the noble goal of increasing the amount of happiness in the world to make that change. But the real main reason is that some suits saw an opportunity to wrench even more money out of a niche product that hadn't reached its full monetization potential yet.
This is also how UB came about. They looked at Commander and saw a very popular, conveniently unofficial format that allowed them to profit off off stuff they had previously actively ruled out. They also saw that they could circumvent a lot of the hard work that comes with making such a hard turn in the game's identity by leaving it to the players to sort things out. Just point to Commander's (and other types of casual play's) status as an unofficial format and say "it's for everyone" - work done. And when they saw that it worked and they could make easy money by activating people's "I recognize, I like, I buy" neanderthal instincts, they doubled down on it real quick.
MaRo also explain this wonderfully with this post (that basically just confirm what I am saying here all the time):
The part that you highlighted is the marketing equivalent of a joker card. Someone doesn't like what your brand is doing? Just talk vaguely about how you're "always evolving" and "pushing boundaries" and pepper it with a bit of "people who dislike this are just too stupid to understand" and "this is not for you." It simply allows you to do anything. I find it amazing that people actually choose to believe insipid drivel like this - literally any company that is forced to make more money every quarter would come up with some contrived reason to claim "always evolving" as part of its "DNA" to weasel themselves out of self-dug holes.
I get it - I'm in the minority, and as a result, I'm left behind. I can accept that. But what this is not is Wizards taking the objectively right path that they were always destined to walk; and UB was not something that "organically evolved" as a result of a creative process that didn't only include but actively avoided 3rd party IPs for 20+ years before Wizards became Hasbro's cash cow. I will not concede the point that my opinion is valid and that people who happen to be OK with UB aren't just simply "right."
But what this is not is Wizards taking the objectively right path that they were always destined to walk.
As I said, my theory is that the only 3 paradigms that WotC will never erase from Magic are the Golden Trifecta : Color pie, mana system, making new cards and expansions at different rarities. This is truly what was in 1993 and it's still today and probably will be forever. All the rest (rules, mechanics, flavor, lore, color pie changes etc) is the surface, the form where this 3 foundamental concepts take place. Sometimes they take directions we like, sometimes they don't, sometimes Wotc stop doing things and sometimes WoTC return to do old stuff we tought they would never do again. But it's still Magic at the very essence. Probably if I'm not bothered by the UB it's because I am able to see deep within the soul and essence of this game (and I am a pretty old player that saw most of Magic changes), while other people just see the surface and they misunderstand their partial vision of the game as the only whole reality that should matter, and ignore the rest.
In that case I think I'm just going to agree with your previous point (might have been someone else's) that the attempt at identifying Magic's true "essence" is futile because it's entirely subjective. :^) To me, Magic being contained in its own universe was part of the essence, which is now being eroded, which is why I am no longer interested in the game and hate the direction it's moving in. I think we have talked long enough about this, there's really no way to "win" here.
Very well. Now, a few things:
1) 2013 was a very different period for Magic.
It's like I could see the future.
They were still experimenting with supplemental sets, and Standard was still the dominant format (today is commander, at least paper-magic). Which means they had much less options than today.
Except even as far as 2016 when Maro was still saying no to crossovers we had Un-sets, Masters sets, Commander had taken off in a huge way, two Conspiracy sets, two Planechase, Archenemy, Anthology products, Zendikar 2 came out with Two Headed Giant in mind, and more so I'd have to say they had it down pretty well.
They would be just part of the game in their own way, just like Commander, Planechase or Archenemy are also Magic in their own way.
Difference being Planechase, Commander, Archenemy, and even Conspiracy are actual different ways to play the game with not only their own game pieces relating to those formats specifically, but additional game pieces you can play normally. UB does not introduce a new way to play the game, they are just additional game pieces. The only reason they are "Magic in their own way" is because their art is within a Magic frame and that's about it.
In the same way if I were to inject football into a baseball game that football portion would definitely not be baseball even if they are playing in a baseball diamond.
2) People can change minds, and doesn't mean that the first opinion it's the right one to follow. About the color pie for example MaRo in his early years of Magic tought that black having fast mana with dark rituals or that blue doing direct damage with psychic flavor was ok (since he even did un-set version of those cards), simply because that was the current vision of the color pie in early Magic. In today Magic, black can only have rituals as a side effect of other spells and blue can never do direct damage at all. He is wrong now?
Wow, I called both your arguments. I must be psychic.
What does this have to do with him being "wrong"? What does that even mean? I never said "he was wrong" I said he made claims against crossovers for years, and then changed his mind making him someone that I wouldn't trust with "this is the way" and that's it. Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz is less of a strawman.
No, the color pie, while still existing, changed, and thats healthy for the game future and evolution. At the same time, in the past the R&D tought that non-IP crossover couldn't be tournaments legal to not confuse players about Magic identity. But guess what. They matured, they changed, because Magic it's always about breaking his own rules outside of the Golden Trifecta.
Refining game mechanics is not the same as bringing in other IP. They are not comparable. One helps the game be played while the other is strictly about trying to increase its audience through recognizable characters in small, short term bursts to make more money.
Also, the very idea that including other IPs is an "artistic decision" is laughable at best.
Magic is the first trading card game of history.
No, it's not. The very first one was The Baseball Card Game made in 1904. I get you're trying to defend Magic, to an almost strange degree, but you can't just spout wrong information.
It is already unique for many things and every other TCG that came later are just imitations of the real deal. It is not expanding his flavor to other IP that will stop to be Magic, because the most deepest and intimate things that makes Magic what it is, will always been the same, even if they assume forms that you, subjectively as a player don't like.
Yes, you're right, it will keep being Magic, but with each new IP they shove in, no matter how arbitrary it is, it becomes less Magic. No longer is Magic a card game, but now it is an IP train that must do this because trends, money, and CEOs say so. It's just another thing that decided it can't sell itself on its own merits anymore, and that is a real shame.
Sounds like that as usual, you need a dictionary and try to make a sentence that make sense instead of using words at random, because as a functional illiterate, you fail to understand what you are reading. Greetings.
It's cute you think that insults me, and even more so that you did it once again for no reason other than disagreeing with you. Those insults don't help your arguments and in fact makes them look even worse than they already are.
while other people just see the surface and they misunderstand their partial vision of the game as the only whole reality that should matter, and ignore the rest.
There's the crux of it. In your mind it's others that have the problem. You actually believe those disagreeing with you have a fault and are not thinking deep enough to see something that somehow only you can see. That really explains a lot about your arguments and the insults you throw around. You perceive others lesser for not "seeing" what you do.
But what this is not is Wizards taking the objectively right path that they were always destined to walk.
As I said, my theory is that the only 3 paradigms that WotC will never erase from Magic are the Golden Trifecta : Color pie, mana system, making new cards and expansions at different rarities.
12-color , 64,000,000-color Flux Pool , The Compleat AI-Made Card Directory , and Jotters . U remember Jotters , right ? Those things all those insanely intelligent superkids at Strixhaven had .
"Advanced Neural Laser Interferometry Artificial Intelligence, now that·s hard."
Except even as far as 2016 when Maro was still saying no to crossovers
What? In 2016 he didn't say (at least according to your own link you provided) "no to crossovers." He simply said that the existence of a D&D version of Zendikar "not necessarily" equates that a Magic version of D&D should automatically happen just because of that. But that's far to say "no to crossovers". Its just his typical answer to "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds", when he doesn't want to give any definitive statements about something, but to be vague enough to be correct in both cases later. You truly have text comprehension issues.
I said he made claims against crossovers for years, and then changed his mind
He said in 2013 that if R&D would ever do a D&D crossover, would be just silver-border, not that would or should be forbidden in the whole Magic existence forever as it is a color pie break. Once again, try to understand what people actually says and not what you think they say in your mind.
Difference being Planechase, Commander, Archenemy, and even Conspiracy are actual different ways to play the game with not only their own game pieces relating to those formats specifically, but additional game pieces you can play normally. UB does not introduce a new way to play the game, they are just additional game pieces.
But Commander and Planechase having, exactly as UB, new unique cards that are simply additional game pieces that works (most of them) just fine in all eternal formats like Vintage and Legacy, was at the time a pretty big deal. When Commander rise officially in the 2011 it was the first time for a very long time WoTC would print "new cards", outside the standard format and many players get very angry and upset because they see this as the nightmare to chase cards outside the boosters packs (like Mana Crypt or Nalathni Dragon) all over again. And didn't help at all the fact that some of the commander or planechase cards turned out to be super strong and warping the competitive play (like Scavengin Ooze, True-Name Nemesis, Flusterstorm, Shardless Agentetc), forcing legacy and vintage players to chase the commander exclusive cards even if they were not interested in commander format at all. Commander decks were seen as just a predatory marketing move to make more money and force players to buy more products, exactly as people see now UB (and how they see basically everything WotC made since the dawn of times)
Refining game mechanics is not the same as bringing in other IP. They are not comparable.
This is just your subjective arbitrary statements that holds no water with the whole Magic history, no more no less. It's not repeating your dogmas you made in your head that will make them more true or change what has been done in past or present.
No, it's not. The very first one was The Baseball Card Game made in 1904.
Yes, my bad I should had simply added "the first TCG that still exist till today", since all others TCG that currently exist all are more or less in debt with Magic system. It's not a very relevant objection that nullify what I am trying to say.
Those insults don't help your arguments and in fact makes them look even worse than they already are.
Well, at least I have arguments, yours just sounds most of time a long rambling of nonsense, because you fail to even understand what we're talking about.
There's the crux of it. In your mind it's others that have the problem.
I am just repeating the same exact concepts that MaRo and whole R&D, the owners of the Magic brand and the only guys that have the ultimate word of what their brand is or is not about. So, if you feel that you're accused to misunderstanding what Magic was all about these years, it's not me that you have to talk with, but with all responsibles of the game itself. And if you don't like what they do with their own game, well lets just say nobody force you to play it if it makes you so unhappy. As I said earlier maybe you won't survive Magic changes, but Magic may continue to be one of the most successful TCG ever even without you.
Honestly the arguments against this stuff just break down to "Change is scary and I don't like it." Tough tootin! We live mortal lives on a planet that is hurtling through the universe at insane speeds, at no point is anything not changing. You either learn to roll with it or it breaks you. Pick one!
Unless of course you actually believed that sometimes people would prepare gifts for one another and send them , and that Magic was actually supposed to be one of those gifts for one of those people .
Honestly the arguments against this stuff just break down to "Change is scary and I don't like it." Tough tootin! We live mortal lives on a planet that is hurtling through the universe at insane speeds, at no point is anything not changing. You either learn to roll with it or it breaks you. Pick one!
It's precisely this attitude that I can't stand about this stuff. Instead of acknowledging that a product, brand, whatever can choose to move into multiple directions at any point, you act like there is a single linear path of "change" and a single linear path of "non-change." This of course is a very comfortable position to hold if you happen to be OK with the change that is happening.
When I look at the DND cards that are coming out now, I feel nothing. They're not new additions to Magic's multiverse. They're all just goofy fantasy characters that get put on Magic cards because people already like them in another product that is otherwise completely separate. Aside from very pragmatic reasons like the product making money, I still fail to see the creative through-line that had to lead here.
I'm OK with Magic changing - I just would have preferred it to change in another way than it currently is. In an of itself, that position is not more or less valid than your position. The difference is really just that your position results in more STONKS for Wizards/Hasbro, and sadly, that's all that matters.
I feel the opposite. Print it all! Your collection's theoretical value only matters in the moment you are cashing in. If you're not cashing in right now, just wait.
I've got four lotus petals from back when they were printed at common. But I'd love it if they printed lotus petal at common again. And even if they did, the price would go back up soon enough. I wouldn't be sad because I wasn't selling my Lotus Petals anyway. I might be able to get more of them!
Honestly the arguments against this stuff just break down to "Change is scary and I don't like it." Tough tootin! We live mortal lives on a planet that is hurtling through the universe at insane speeds, at no point is anything not changing. You either learn to roll with it or it breaks you. Pick one!
When I look at the DND cards that are coming out now, I feel nothing. They're not new additions to Magic's multiverse. They're all just goofy fantasy characters that get put on Magic cards because people already like them in another product that is otherwise completely separate. Aside from very pragmatic reasons like the product making money, I still fail to see the creative through-line that had to lead here.
Nothing has to lead anywhere and no one is entitled to an explanation from anyone or anything and you're absolutely asking the wrong people for one anyway.
If you want the "creative" answer it's probably just that they keep doing these dumb supplemental commander products because it's a popular format and it fills a hole in the schedule and by dipping into the well of forgotten realms they don't have to split up a team who is already busy coordinating creative for 4 standard sets a year. Also BG3 was originally supposed to be done by now so hasbro wanted to do a cross-marketing push. But I'm just speculating.
And stop with the "wizards sold out" stuff, this game was created as paper gambling and then built on the back of a 30 year old financialized market that inherently by its very design privileges people with money over everyone else. This is a pay to win game and it always has been outside of limited. There is no world in which a CCG with scarce cards sorted by both rarity and power could approach something like a creative work with purely artistic and completely non-monetary intentions. If there was a "creative" goal here then wizards would be printing every card on demand at cost.
I like how there's apparently no middle ground between "change" = get every IP under the sun with enough brand recognition among nerds to put on cards to sell and "no change." I'm pretty sure they could've kept profits rising even without crossovers. Pressure from Hasbro just didn't allow it, they were forced to "grow" faster and this is the result.
It's fine. I know that me having this disucssion here will not amount to anything. I've already moved on to other hobbies, it will just take a bit more time until I can reach true indifference towards MtG as a game again.
I've been a Vorthos in terms of following the storyline for as long as I've been a player of MTG (I'm PUMPED for Brother's War), but I've never had that same Vorthos feel while actually playing the game. I guess for me, seeing 40K characters randomly showing up in decks doesn't really seem all that different than, say, old school Phyrexians and Innistrad zombies in the same deck. I don't lose my immersion seeing Elves from Lorwyn and Elves from New Capenna in the same deck. The stuff from OG Mirrodin couldn't be any more different than the stuff from OG Kamigawa, but they were in Standard together without breaking the world thematically. What makes Gandalf stand out more than The Reaper King or the Patron of the Akki?
To me, the difference is the surrounding framework. When I used to play, it was not like I actively imagined every turn and every spell cast as a moment in a duel between two planeswalkers. But there was still some sense of "I cast this spell from Kamigawa", "now they summon that creature from Mirrodin" etc. The multiverse is diverse, but all planes still share the mana system etc. and are loosely connected through the general planeswalker lore. Glacial Ray and Light 'Em Up have very different aesthetics but they have the same foundation, and a planeswalker could travel from plane to plane and learn both.
The same thing simply doesn't work with UB - "they summon ... Gandalf? I guess they went to Middle Earth??" But Middle Earth is not part of the MtG universe. It's not just about aesthetics, its about a wider sense of cohesion and (I'm going to use a pretentious word now) ludonarrative.
Until UB, Magic was, for the most part, a single connected universe both gameplay- and flavor-wise (yes, Arabian Nights and P3K happened, but that was very early on, and similar things didn't happen again for 20+ years - clearly showing that WotC wanted to move away from them). I understand that some people enjoy Magic first and foremost as a game, with the cards being nothing more than game pieces that could have any kind of art on them. But I for once was very fond of the unity of gameplay and flavor, a once central part of the game's identity that is now being torn down.
Idk, it's like a Jazz club that suddenly starts playing Top 40 to get more customers. I get why the owners do it, but I just can't approve of it. Pretty much my only choice is to leave the club.
I mean, to each their own, and if it's truly affecting your enjoyment I understand feeling the way you do. I can understand why that sucks.
I guess that, even though I love following the storyline and flavor of tbe sets and their individual cards, I personally dont take that same suspension of disbelief into my actual gameplay, unless im intentionally playing a specifically themed deck (all Weatherlight characters, etc). I like the flavor of individual cards, and i like how they fit into their specific set from a flavor standpoint, but once gameplay starts and im mixing various cards from various sets and worlds, I'm more focused on the card text than the flavor. Glenn, the Voice of Calm IS jarring in my Kamiz, Obscura Oculus deck from a flavor standpoint, but im not worried about flavor when its in my hand.
None of that is to say that your feelings are wrong, just to each their own.
What? In 2016 he didn't say (at least according to your own link you provided) "no to crossovers."
You understand the point of that argument was you claiming they hadn't gotten supplemental sets down, right? We can go to a different topic, sure.
"Not necessarily" was still not proof they were doing other IP, by that point they were still in the no crossover camp. Looking at the game at the time that was true.
He said in 2013 that if R&D would ever do a D&D crossover, would be just silver-border,
And are the D&D cards silver border? No, they're not. Looks like minds were changed weren't they? Thanks for agreeing with my point that he changed his mind. Oh wait, he didn't change his mind he made an "artistic decision."
This is just your subjective arbitrary statements that holds no water with the whole Magic history, no more no less. It's not repeating your dogmas you made in your head that will make them more true or change what has been done in past or present.
There's no dogma, it's pointing out your argument was awful. You equated one to another and they are not equal in the least. It's not arbitrary to point out the flaw in your thinking that game mechanics are even in the same league as slapping random IP into a game. How you assumed they are equal is baffling.
It is ironic you bring up someone else's "dogma" while at the same time believing only you see something that others don't.
Yes, my bad I should had simply added "the first TCG that still exist till today",
"What I meant was....." Whatever.
Well, at least I have arguments,
I wouldn't call equating fixing game mechanics to bringing in IP like a gacha game and making the wrong claim about Magic being the first TCG/CCG arguments, but hey, I guess we all gotta die on our own hill, your hill is just ill founded, filled with insults, and awful.
I am just repeating the same exact concepts that MaRo
So Maro also insults people randomly when they disagree with him and point out flaws in his arguments too? Well gee, I haven't seen that.
So, if you feel that you're accused to misunderstanding what Magic was all about these years, it's not me
Yes, it is you, you quite literally said it's others not understanding and that you do. You made the claim and feel you are superior because of it, and it's clear by your insults that you do in fact believe yourself better for seeing some "essence" that those disagreeing with you cannot. You created an arbitrary thing in your mind so you can look down your nose at others.
And if you don't like what they do with their own game, well lets just say nobody force you to play it if it makes you so unhappy.
"If you criticize it that means you don't like it and you should leave" is a childish argument, and goes perfectly with you and your arguments as a whole.
I like how there's apparently no middle ground between "change" = get every IP under the sun with enough brand recognition among nerds to put on cards to sell and "no change." I'm pretty sure they could've kept profits rising even without crossovers. Pressure from Hasbro just didn't allow it, they were forced to "grow" faster and this is the result.
It's fine. I know that me having this disucssion here will not amount to anything. I've already moved on to other hobbies, it will just take a bit more time until I can reach true indifference towards MtG as a game again.
Funny thing is that there was a middle ground, and it was the Godzilla treatment. Near no one had a problem with it, it was great for those that wanted it and those that didn't, but then they decided right after to jump the shark and go straight into "Here are mechanically unique cards that are time limited. Collect your favorite characters now!"
I had zero issue with the Godzilla treatment, they are just promos. Now though WotC gets to resell the same cards twice by making the IP specific version and Magic versions, which means collectors have to do both and they make twice the money.
Honestly the arguments against this stuff just break down to "Change is scary and I don't like it." Tough tootin! We live mortal lives on a planet that is hurtling through the universe at insane speeds, at no point is anything not changing. You either learn to roll with it or it breaks you. Pick one!
This just goes in the "You can't criticize something" pile and that's an awful idea that you just have to accept things just because. Are you saying that you've never complained about something in your life changing?
I feel the opposite. Print it all! Your collection's theoretical value only matters in the moment you are cashing in. If you're not cashing in right now, just wait.
I don't really care about flavor nearly as much as I care about mechanics. If new cards work within the game (i.e. they have card types, mana costs, etc), then I don't care whether they're sci-fi or real people or whatever. When I sit down to play a game of Magic, I don't envision myself as some powerful wizard with a spellbook full of Lightning Bolts and Shivan Dragon incantations going into an epic duel against another wizard. I envision myself as a dude sitting down to play a game of Magic. I'm just looking to have a good time, and watching my opponent equip Lucille to their Ken, Burning Brawler isn't going to affect that.
I hate that people will gobble up all these garbage DND, 40K and LotR sets.
Nom,nom,nom.
Also, why do you care what other people like?
Because they're being big mad children and if they can't like it, neither can we!
You (and many others) completely fail to see why people dislike this. Magic has always been a fantasy game. Boltguns, tanks, spaceships and the likes have no place getting mixed into a fantasy game. UB is an escalation of crossing a very undesirable line that started with SL. Since it’s a Commander product you could potentially be forced to deal with these themed cards whether you wist to or not because an opponent could plop them on the table at any given moment.
So this is not a matter of you not being allowed to like something. It is a matter of everybody being forced to like it or having to deal with it. If this was a stand-alone product not mixed into the rest of the game nobody would mind.
Oh no, I might have to... LOOK AT A SPACE MARINE CARD when my opponent plays it! My immersion will be broken, and my entire day will be ruined!
This is honestly such a petty thing to complain about, it's just a card dude
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Unless of course there was a very select , very specific group of , maybe say , four people , who had planned to revitalize the dying planet with Magic before it fizzled out into a sea of grey automata .
I think the Innistrad thing came about as at the time the set released vampire/werewolf media was rather popular and everywhere between Twilight, Underworld, Van Helsing, and more, it is one reason I find Innistrad lame as I'm generally tired of those creatures. Still a great plane nonetheless. Personally, I thought Strixhaven was going to be rife with Harry Potter as I greatly dislike Harry Potter, though I admit that was jumping the gun by a few months and I assumed greatly.
With that said, I'd much rather Magic take from other sources and make it their own rather than slapping another IP in the game for little reason other than money and trends.
Very well. Now, a few things:
1) 2013 was a very different period for Magic. They were still experimenting with supplemental sets, and Standard was still the dominant format (today is commander, at least paper-magic). Which means they had much less options than today. It didn't exist the godzilla-treatment technology. They probably didn't think about that they could do both a non-IP and an IP version (exactly as happened in New Capenna with the Stranger Things crossover). They didn't know if they would put D&D universe inside Magic lore like they did with Rabiah or be able to put it outside without confusing players. But even then, even in the 2013 MaRo didn't even say that a D&D set would never belong to Magic, but that would be silver-border, exactly to avoid all the issues above. And as I proved in the other post, for MaRo "silver border" doesnt mean "it's not Magic" or "they are inferior Magic cards". They would be just part of the game in their own way, just like Commander, Planechase or Archenemy are also Magic in their own way.
2) People can change minds, and doesn't mean that the first opinion it's the right one to follow. About the color pie for example MaRo in his early years of Magic tought that black having fast mana with dark rituals or that blue doing direct damage with psychic flavor was ok (since he even did un-set version of those cards), simply because that was the current vision of the color pie in early Magic. In today Magic, black can only have rituals as a side effect of other spells and blue can never do direct damage at all. He is wrong now? No, the color pie, while still existing, changed, and thats healthy for the game future and evolution. At the same time, in the past the R&D tought that non-IP crossover couldn't be tournaments legal to not confuse players about Magic identity. But guess what. They matured, they changed, because Magic it's always about breaking his own rules outside of the Golden Trifecta. Magic is the first trading card game of history. It is already unique for many things and every other TCG that came later are just imitations of the real deal. It is not expanding his flavor to other IP that will stop to be Magic, because the most deepest and intimate things that makes Magic what it is, will always been the same, even if they assume forms that you, subjectively as a player don't like.
Sounds like that as usual, you need a dictionary and try to make a sentence that make sense instead of using words at random, because as a functional illiterate, you fail to understand what you are reading. Greetings.
This is also how UB came about. They looked at Commander and saw a very popular, conveniently unofficial format that allowed them to profit off off stuff they had previously actively ruled out. They also saw that they could circumvent a lot of the hard work that comes with making such a hard turn in the game's identity by leaving it to the players to sort things out. Just point to Commander's (and other types of casual play's) status as an unofficial format and say "it's for everyone" - work done. And when they saw that it worked and they could make easy money by activating people's "I recognize, I like, I buy" neanderthal instincts, they doubled down on it real quick.
The part that you highlighted is the marketing equivalent of a joker card. Someone doesn't like what your brand is doing? Just talk vaguely about how you're "always evolving" and "pushing boundaries" and pepper it with a bit of "people who dislike this are just too stupid to understand" and "this is not for you." It simply allows you to do anything. I find it amazing that people actually choose to believe insipid drivel like this - literally any company that is forced to make more money every quarter would come up with some contrived reason to claim "always evolving" as part of its "DNA" to weasel themselves out of self-dug holes.
I get it - I'm in the minority, and as a result, I'm left behind. I can accept that. But what this is not is Wizards taking the objectively right path that they were always destined to walk; and UB was not something that "organically evolved" as a result of a creative process that didn't only include but actively avoided 3rd party IPs for 20+ years before Wizards became Hasbro's cash cow. I will not concede the point that my opinion is valid and that people who happen to be OK with UB aren't just simply "right."
As I said, my theory is that the only 3 paradigms that WotC will never erase from Magic are the Golden Trifecta : Color pie, mana system, making new cards and expansions at different rarities. This is truly what was in 1993 and it's still today and probably will be forever. All the rest (rules, mechanics, flavor, lore, color pie changes etc) is the surface, the form where this 3 foundamental concepts take place. Sometimes they take directions we like, sometimes they don't, sometimes Wotc stop doing things and sometimes WoTC return to do old stuff we tought they would never do again. But it's still Magic at the very essence. Probably if I'm not bothered by the UB it's because I am able to see deep within the soul and essence of this game (and I am a pretty old player that saw most of Magic changes), while other people just see the surface and they misunderstand their partial vision of the game as the only whole reality that should matter, and ignore the rest.
It's like I could see the future.
Except even as far as 2016 when Maro was still saying no to crossovers we had Un-sets, Masters sets, Commander had taken off in a huge way, two Conspiracy sets, two Planechase, Archenemy, Anthology products, Zendikar 2 came out with Two Headed Giant in mind, and more so I'd have to say they had it down pretty well.
Difference being Planechase, Commander, Archenemy, and even Conspiracy are actual different ways to play the game with not only their own game pieces relating to those formats specifically, but additional game pieces you can play normally. UB does not introduce a new way to play the game, they are just additional game pieces. The only reason they are "Magic in their own way" is because their art is within a Magic frame and that's about it.
In the same way if I were to inject football into a baseball game that football portion would definitely not be baseball even if they are playing in a baseball diamond.
Wow, I called both your arguments. I must be psychic.
What does this have to do with him being "wrong"? What does that even mean? I never said "he was wrong" I said he made claims against crossovers for years, and then changed his mind making him someone that I wouldn't trust with "this is the way" and that's it. Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz is less of a strawman.
Refining game mechanics is not the same as bringing in other IP. They are not comparable. One helps the game be played while the other is strictly about trying to increase its audience through recognizable characters in small, short term bursts to make more money.
Also, the very idea that including other IPs is an "artistic decision" is laughable at best.
No, it's not. The very first one was The Baseball Card Game made in 1904. I get you're trying to defend Magic, to an almost strange degree, but you can't just spout wrong information.
Yes, you're right, it will keep being Magic, but with each new IP they shove in, no matter how arbitrary it is, it becomes less Magic. No longer is Magic a card game, but now it is an IP train that must do this because trends, money, and CEOs say so. It's just another thing that decided it can't sell itself on its own merits anymore, and that is a real shame.
It's cute you think that insults me, and even more so that you did it once again for no reason other than disagreeing with you. Those insults don't help your arguments and in fact makes them look even worse than they already are.
There's the crux of it. In your mind it's others that have the problem. You actually believe those disagreeing with you have a fault and are not thinking deep enough to see something that somehow only you can see. That really explains a lot about your arguments and the insults you throw around. You perceive others lesser for not "seeing" what you do.
It all makes sense now.
12-color , 64,000,000-color Flux Pool , The Compleat AI-Made Card Directory , and Jotters . U remember Jotters , right ? Those things all those insanely intelligent superkids at Strixhaven had .
"Advanced Neural Laser Interferometry Artificial Intelligence, now that·s hard."
-Irini Sengir
What? In 2016 he didn't say (at least according to your own link you provided) "no to crossovers." He simply said that the existence of a D&D version of Zendikar "not necessarily" equates that a Magic version of D&D should automatically happen just because of that. But that's far to say "no to crossovers". Its just his typical answer to "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds", when he doesn't want to give any definitive statements about something, but to be vague enough to be correct in both cases later. You truly have text comprehension issues.
He said in 2013 that if R&D would ever do a D&D crossover, would be just silver-border, not that would or should be forbidden in the whole Magic existence forever as it is a color pie break. Once again, try to understand what people actually says and not what you think they say in your mind.
But Commander and Planechase having, exactly as UB, new unique cards that are simply additional game pieces that works (most of them) just fine in all eternal formats like Vintage and Legacy, was at the time a pretty big deal. When Commander rise officially in the 2011 it was the first time for a very long time WoTC would print "new cards", outside the standard format and many players get very angry and upset because they see this as the nightmare to chase cards outside the boosters packs (like Mana Crypt or Nalathni Dragon) all over again. And didn't help at all the fact that some of the commander or planechase cards turned out to be super strong and warping the competitive play (like Scavengin Ooze, True-Name Nemesis, Flusterstorm, Shardless Agentetc), forcing legacy and vintage players to chase the commander exclusive cards even if they were not interested in commander format at all. Commander decks were seen as just a predatory marketing move to make more money and force players to buy more products, exactly as people see now UB (and how they see basically everything WotC made since the dawn of times)
This is just your subjective arbitrary statements that holds no water with the whole Magic history, no more no less. It's not repeating your dogmas you made in your head that will make them more true or change what has been done in past or present.
Yes, my bad I should had simply added "the first TCG that still exist till today", since all others TCG that currently exist all are more or less in debt with Magic system. It's not a very relevant objection that nullify what I am trying to say.
Well, at least I have arguments, yours just sounds most of time a long rambling of nonsense, because you fail to even understand what we're talking about.
I am just repeating the same exact concepts that MaRo and whole R&D, the owners of the Magic brand and the only guys that have the ultimate word of what their brand is or is not about. So, if you feel that you're accused to misunderstanding what Magic was all about these years, it's not me that you have to talk with, but with all responsibles of the game itself. And if you don't like what they do with their own game, well lets just say nobody force you to play it if it makes you so unhappy. As I said earlier maybe you won't survive Magic changes, but Magic may continue to be one of the most successful TCG ever even without you.
AaHtDé .
-Irini Sengir
When I look at the DND cards that are coming out now, I feel nothing. They're not new additions to Magic's multiverse. They're all just goofy fantasy characters that get put on Magic cards because people already like them in another product that is otherwise completely separate. Aside from very pragmatic reasons like the product making money, I still fail to see the creative through-line that had to lead here.
I'm OK with Magic changing - I just would have preferred it to change in another way than it currently is. In an of itself, that position is not more or less valid than your position. The difference is really just that your position results in more STONKS for Wizards/Hasbro, and sadly, that's all that matters.
Double Masters did the most damage to the value of my collection by a LONG SHOT,
so I’m not even remotely happy to see that idea return.
I've got four lotus petals from back when they were printed at common. But I'd love it if they printed lotus petal at common again. And even if they did, the price would go back up soon enough. I wouldn't be sad because I wasn't selling my Lotus Petals anyway. I might be able to get more of them!
Isn't better now that Tarmogoyf isn't a 90$ card?
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Nothing has to lead anywhere and no one is entitled to an explanation from anyone or anything and you're absolutely asking the wrong people for one anyway.
If you want the "creative" answer it's probably just that they keep doing these dumb supplemental commander products because it's a popular format and it fills a hole in the schedule and by dipping into the well of forgotten realms they don't have to split up a team who is already busy coordinating creative for 4 standard sets a year. Also BG3 was originally supposed to be done by now so hasbro wanted to do a cross-marketing push. But I'm just speculating.
And stop with the "wizards sold out" stuff, this game was created as paper gambling and then built on the back of a 30 year old financialized market that inherently by its very design privileges people with money over everyone else. This is a pay to win game and it always has been outside of limited. There is no world in which a CCG with scarce cards sorted by both rarity and power could approach something like a creative work with purely artistic and completely non-monetary intentions. If there was a "creative" goal here then wizards would be printing every card on demand at cost.
Of course you can .
Of course you should .
-Irini Sengir
It's fine. I know that me having this disucssion here will not amount to anything. I've already moved on to other hobbies, it will just take a bit more time until I can reach true indifference towards MtG as a game again.
A Delayed Blast Fireball would really be something .
-Irini Sengir
I mean, to each their own, and if it's truly affecting your enjoyment I understand feeling the way you do. I can understand why that sucks.
I guess that, even though I love following the storyline and flavor of tbe sets and their individual cards, I personally dont take that same suspension of disbelief into my actual gameplay, unless im intentionally playing a specifically themed deck (all Weatherlight characters, etc). I like the flavor of individual cards, and i like how they fit into their specific set from a flavor standpoint, but once gameplay starts and im mixing various cards from various sets and worlds, I'm more focused on the card text than the flavor. Glenn, the Voice of Calm IS jarring in my Kamiz, Obscura Oculus deck from a flavor standpoint, but im not worried about flavor when its in my hand.
None of that is to say that your feelings are wrong, just to each their own.
You understand the point of that argument was you claiming they hadn't gotten supplemental sets down, right? We can go to a different topic, sure.
"Not necessarily" was still not proof they were doing other IP, by that point they were still in the no crossover camp. Looking at the game at the time that was true.
And are the D&D cards silver border? No, they're not. Looks like minds were changed weren't they? Thanks for agreeing with my point that he changed his mind. Oh wait, he didn't change his mind he made an "artistic decision."
There's no dogma, it's pointing out your argument was awful. You equated one to another and they are not equal in the least. It's not arbitrary to point out the flaw in your thinking that game mechanics are even in the same league as slapping random IP into a game. How you assumed they are equal is baffling.
It is ironic you bring up someone else's "dogma" while at the same time believing only you see something that others don't.
"What I meant was....." Whatever.
I wouldn't call equating fixing game mechanics to bringing in IP like a gacha game and making the wrong claim about Magic being the first TCG/CCG arguments, but hey, I guess we all gotta die on our own hill, your hill is just ill founded, filled with insults, and awful.
So Maro also insults people randomly when they disagree with him and point out flaws in his arguments too? Well gee, I haven't seen that.
Yes, it is you, you quite literally said it's others not understanding and that you do. You made the claim and feel you are superior because of it, and it's clear by your insults that you do in fact believe yourself better for seeing some "essence" that those disagreeing with you cannot. You created an arbitrary thing in your mind so you can look down your nose at others.
"If you criticize it that means you don't like it and you should leave" is a childish argument, and goes perfectly with you and your arguments as a whole.
Funny thing is that there was a middle ground, and it was the Godzilla treatment. Near no one had a problem with it, it was great for those that wanted it and those that didn't, but then they decided right after to jump the shark and go straight into "Here are mechanically unique cards that are time limited. Collect your favorite characters now!"
I had zero issue with the Godzilla treatment, they are just promos. Now though WotC gets to resell the same cards twice by making the IP specific version and Magic versions, which means collectors have to do both and they make twice the money.
This just goes in the "You can't criticize something" pile and that's an awful idea that you just have to accept things just because. Are you saying that you've never complained about something in your life changing?
Yeah, about that…
Oh no, I might have to... LOOK AT A SPACE MARINE CARD when my opponent plays it! My immersion will be broken, and my entire day will be ruined!
This is honestly such a petty thing to complain about, it's just a card dude
-Irini Sengir
So you've never been dissatisfied with a card in Magic before?