So my guess on "Braids" (might be a similar looking Cabal leftover) is that we don't see a compleated version of the character, but a Nightmare version that has been twisted by their time in the Dementia pocket world.
Somebody mentioned her being Braids·s ancestor , did anybody have her name on hand ?
You say that doing 3rd party IPs and allowing color pie breaks are very different, but they're really not. They're arbitrary things that Wizards has decided on. If everything goes, why don't allow enchantment destruction in red? After all, there would be people who would like it, and buy the cards! From what I've gathered in these threads, those two things alone are enough to justify everything and anything and label people who disagree as gatekeepers.
Colour pie breaks affect gameplay while UB affects flavour. For a game, altering the gameplay trumps altering the flavour, you're not reading a book or watching a movie here. So no, 3rd party IPs and colour pie breaks are not the same. While they're both arbitrary limits, they have a vastly different impact.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
Does anyone want to hazard a guess on the Dominaria United Jumpstart packs possibly displacing/supplanting Theme Boosters? Or will these be in addition to Theme Boosters do you think?
There's an answer for ya in the WotC page.
Replacing Theme Boosters, fan-favorite Jumpstart packs let players new and returning alike mix, match, and enjoy the mayhem of unique themes with each latest release. Jumpstart packs in Dominaria United and beyond follow the original Jumpstart release where each pack is a hidden theme to discover when you open, and shuffling any two packs together is all you need to be ready to play.
They flat out say the Jumpstart packs are replacing theme boosters. Probably the easiest way to actually get them to sell, because they'll once again have exclusive cards. And the Jumpstart unique cards likely won't be found in Set or Collector Boosters, so there'll be another product for people to try and grab in order to get the mechanically unique cards.
Thank you for sharing, I did not see that article.
Now this begs the question will they all be Dominaria United cards in the Jumpstart "decks" or will it be a mix and match. My curiosity is piqued.
All the cards but 1 in the pact are from the main set, but 1 card per pack is a unique to Dominaria United packs, they can't be found in other products.
I will also note that future premiere sets will also get tneir own versions of Jumpstart, so you can expect Jumpstart Brothers War this hear too.
Thanks for the update. Looks like a way to sell theme boosters of 20 cards instead of 35 for basically the same price. I like Jumpstart so I will give them a chance when they come out.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Just Google "Rabiah scale" to find out why that plane is the least likely to return in all of Magic. Hint: Yes, it has to do with the fact that its not a Wizards IP, and that stance was maintained for at least a decade. I don't know if you actually didn't know this or just pretended to not know (both are really not all that good).
That's a different matter, because Rabiah was actually the attempt to force the Arabian Night set and characters to be inside (and not outside as the UB sets) the Magic canon lore and multiverse, and if it is now a 10 is exactly because WotC has learned that the best way to do "non-magic IP" it's simply to not put them inside the canon of the magic lore but to be their own thing.
Once again the parallels with phasing is surprisingly fitting : Phasing, the keyword, was a mistake as a drawback mechanic, but phasing out and in at will it's much more likely because it leads to much better gameplay. At the same time, Rabiah, as the attempt to put the "A thousand and one nights" inside the Magic lore was a mistake, and that's why WotC made the fixed version, the UB project, to be free to do any IP without messing with his own canon and lore.
Also all the MaRo scales always talk about what we would see in premier sets (which means, standard legal sets), which has nothing to do if mechanics (storm scale), characters (venser scale) or worlds (rabiah scale) are still allowed to see the light of day in supplemental sets and belong to be in Magic as a whole. (and obviously Modern Horizon and Commander Sets already proved that WotC its more than willing to print new storm cards despite the storm scale is after that mechanic, just not in a premiere sets). So, Rabiah at 10 would still simply say that it's just extremely unlickely that we would see our heroes to face with the goofy old attempt to canonize in Magic world the arabian novel, not that we would not see again Rabiah again in Magic as a whole (which is a totally different thing than a "color pie break", which has no right to exist in the game nowhere). My point still stand.
(Not quoting because it's both an answer to you and Dragoon91)
While I might not like it as a Vorthos, I can see how gameplay trump's flavor in MtG.
I guess in terms of flavor, UB is more like a strong color pie bend instead of a break. White can technically do tax counter spells, yet Wizards has decided to not print them simply because a lot of people don't like counterspells. UB has the same kind of thing going for it, except that Wizards decided that they actually do want to move into that space ... because there are more people who like it than those who don't. I belong to the latter group though.
UB occupies this weird overlapping region between flavor and gameplay. For me, even in terms of gameplay the creative cohesion of Magic as its own universe has always been a big thing. I guess I really bought into the "you are a planeswalker" thing. And that illusion is simply shattered when my opponent can cast Gandalf or a Space Marine at any time. But I guess a lot of people just don't care about that? The point is that if you do, there are now only a few ways left to avoid this kind of experience, like exclusively drafting premier sets.
When I look at UB stuff, I feel what I feel when I look at those *****ty live action remakes that Disney has been putting out. Just take some recognizable faces and characters, slap them on a product, and watch the people come in hordes and rip it from your hands. Very clever from a business standpoint, very sad from a creative standpoint.
For me UB is a box of pandora that I wish Wizards would never have opened. Non-premier sets have been used as loopholes in the past, and maybe at one point, after flooding MtG with too many 3rd party IP products, they will decide that it's better to close it. But for me, it's too late. People will buy the cards because they can't live their lives without having Gandalf on Magic card. Whatever. I'll just never return to the game.
You're going to be disappointed for quite a long time then. Honestly I really don't give a ***** what you think about certain aspects of the game. It really doesn't bother me one bit. In fact I don't care what anyone here thinks of certain aspects of the game. Why? It has zero effect on how I personally experience it. That's all that matters here.
Sure, I dislike things to. But I live with it. Going into high school-like cliques bc something doesn't jive with you is rather immature. If someone playing with your example of AFR cards bothers you that much, and you want to table flip and storm off in a tantrum, then maybe you should give yourself a check. I wouldn't want to play with someone who exhibits toxic privilege like you do anyway.
See, this is exactly the kind of attitude I have a problem with as far as this thread is concerned. People come into this thread saying "I don't like this." and suddenly they are being accused to being childish, of being gatekeepers and throwing tantrums. As I said before, people are allowed to like things. People are allowed to dislike things. This goes for both sides. But what is not okay is to then attack the people behind those opinions and try to misrepresent their posts and actions just so you can come across as superior.
Cliques? Table flips? Tantrums? I never did any of these. And nothing I said imply I would do these things.
That's why it was cited as an example. If you can't differentiate between that and direct reference then that's on you.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
While I might not like it as a Vorthos, I can see how gameplay trump's flavor in MtG.
But you see, I'm also a Vorthos (and a very passionate one) exactly like you, and I'm not bothered at all of UB exactly because they don't hurt or touch in any way the real story and identity of Magic lore (being outside of the mtg multiverse and canon) but are nothing more than fan-services to people that sincerely enjoy to see their own heroes to have a Magic version and to be "part of game" at least gameplay wise if not lorewise.
It is not so uncommon that you see, even in tournaments, altered cards that depict whatever media players enjoy right? (like I don't know, batman painted over the art of a Vampire Nighthawk or something). Sure, you might not like it, it might partially ruin your personal immersion to the game but you can't control what other players enjoy to see and express themselves through Magic within their own decks.
And thats exactly why WotC will make Magic versions of the Secret Lairs UB cards or the use of the Godzilla-treatment : to let people enjoy the same game each with his own favorite immersion. It's sounds a good and reasonable compromise to me.
I guess in terms of flavor, UB is more like a strong color pie bend instead of a break. White can technically do tax counter spells, yet Wizards has decided to not print them simply because a lot of people don't like counterspells. UB has the same kind of thing going for it, except that Wizards decided that they actually do want to move into that space ... because there are more people who like it than those who don't. I belong to the latter group though.
UB occupies this weird overlapping region between flavor and gameplay. For me, even in terms of gameplay the creative cohesion of Magic as its own universe has always been a big thing. I guess I really bought into the "you are a planeswalker" thing. And that illusion is simply shattered when my opponent can cast Gandalf or a Space Marine at any time. But I guess a lot of people just don't care about that? The point is that if you do, there are now only a few ways left to avoid this kind of experience, like exclusively drafting premier sets.
That's a very valid opinion and I can understand your point of view, you just ended up in the minority this time, which sucks but c'est la vie.
You can always ask the people you're playing with to use decks without UB cards if possible, it's not like they represent the majority of the game.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
I guess in terms of flavor, UB is more like a strong color pie bend instead of a break. White can technically do tax counter spells, yet Wizards has decided to not print them simply because a lot of people don't like counterspells. UB has the same kind of thing going for it, except that Wizards decided that they actually do want to move into that space ... because there are more people who like it than those who don't. I belong to the latter group though.
UB occupies this weird overlapping region between flavor and gameplay. For me, even in terms of gameplay the creative cohesion of Magic as its own universe has always been a big thing. I guess I really bought into the "you are a planeswalker" thing. And that illusion is simply shattered when my opponent can cast Gandalf or a Space Marine at any time. But I guess a lot of people just don't care about that? The point is that if you do, there are now only a few ways left to avoid this kind of experience, like exclusively drafting premier sets.
That's a very valid opinion and I can understand your point of view, you just ended up in the minority this time, which sucks but c'est la vie.
You can always ask the people you're playing with to use decks without UB cards if possible, it's not like they represent the majority of the game.
this will probably end up being more of a thing for me as we move further into UB.
when someone sits down with a UB themed deck it puts me in a situation where i'm really not enjoying the experience because to me it just isn't magic.
yeah, people alter cards all the time, but it was a rare and fringe thing - that made it cool - by emphasizing UB that makes it more accessible and more abundant. that means at the end of the day the only uniqueness to magic is the card mechanics. magic has spent 30 years world building and for me its as much a part of the game as playing the game.
while i can ask someone to play something else because my experience will be hindered by facing off against space marines and gandalf, they'll end up having a bad experience too because i'm trying to get them to experience the game a different way - yet both ways are now part of the game. if i'm at an event and someone doesn't have a different deck, i have no choice, i play with a diminished less immersive experience, or i choose not to play at all.
i do foresee sitting down at edh pods and someone busting out the necrons precon, not having anything else, and me simply saying 'great okay, i'm going to sit this one out then' which should be a valid choice - but it won't be because of how feels bad and petty that will be for everyone else involved. its not quite like saying i don't want to play your stax deck, because here this is purely aesthetic.
really though, i've already noticed instead of putting people through that, or myself through that, i just you know... don't go to events any more. if i'm going to be forced to experience UB polluting the core experience that is 30 years of magic worldbuilding, game design, and experience... i kind of just, won't bother to be in that situation at all.
here think of it this way: the thomas the tank engine mod for skyrim is fun, once or twice. every single time you turn the game on and without any choice to turn it off? that stops being skyrim, and it stops being an enjoyable experience.
yeah, there are a lot of people who are for this UB stuff, but there are a lot who aren't and the ones who aren't just end up walking away feeling trampled and ignored. frustrated that the game is evolving into a novelty without an identity of its own after having established one for decades. UB would've been fine as silver border optional content.
UB plus all the absurd variants you can open in packs now really does make it feel as if the game is transition to be more of a collectors piece like sports cards than an interactive, immersive, gaming experience.
there's a lot more to magic than just the card back and card mechanics. its not like monopoly where that doesn't play into some greater story/world building experience. this won't be healthy but it's going to take time to really rot from the inside out.
(Not quoting because it's both an answer to you and Dragoon91)
While I might not like it as a Vorthos, I can see how gameplay trump's flavor in MtG.
I guess in terms of flavor, UB is more like a strong color pie bend instead of a break. White can technically do tax counter spells, yet Wizards has decided to not print them simply because a lot of people don't like counterspells. UB has the same kind of thing going for it, except that Wizards decided that they actually do want to move into that space ... because there are more people who like it than those who don't. I belong to the latter group though.
UB occupies this weird overlapping region between flavor and gameplay. For me, even in terms of gameplay the creative cohesion of Magic as its own universe has always been a big thing. I guess I really bought into the "you are a planeswalker" thing. And that illusion is simply shattered when my opponent can cast Gandalf or a Space Marine at any time. But I guess a lot of people just don't care about that? The point is that if you do, there are now only a few ways left to avoid this kind of experience, like exclusively drafting premier sets.
When I look at UB stuff, I feel what I feel when I look at those *****ty live action remakes that Disney has been putting out. Just take some recognizable faces and characters, slap them on a product, and watch the people come in hordes and rip it from your hands. Very clever from a business standpoint, very sad from a creative standpoint.
For me UB is a box of pandora that I wish Wizards would never have opened. Non-premier sets have been used as loopholes in the past, and maybe at one point, after flooding MtG with too many 3rd party IP products, they will decide that it's better to close it. But for me, it's too late. People will buy the cards because they can't live their lives without having Gandalf on Magic card. Whatever. I'll just never return to the game.
What I don't and will never understand is why it seems they've picked IP with deep lore, but slap new art of "the thing we recognize" on generic designs. Abaddon for example is fine, or even good. Y'know, whatever. But what about the design screams abaddon? absolutely nothing. Guy famous for destroying a planet doesn't destroy lands. Guy famous for doing 13 of something doesn't have 13 on it anywhere. Guy who leads crusades doesn't have a crusade anthem effect. It doesn't need to be this blatant, obviously, but it should at least be somewhat evocative of the character it's supposed to be. Right? Why use this IP for new designs if you don't want to explore the space?
The instant is the opposite. Cool, thematic, spot on design. 8, aethyr, got it. More you fight, more powerful you become in the eyes of this particular god. amazing. Appropriately costed too. Freakin' sweet.
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Latest proof this forum is a trashfire:
Your authoritarianism will be the reason the company suffers another 60M in losses.
What I don't and will never understand is why it seems they've picked IP with deep lore, but slap new art of "the thing we recognize" on generic designs. Abaddon for example is fine, or even good. Y'know, whatever. But what about the design screams abaddon? absolutely nothing. Guy famous for destroying a planet doesn't destroy lands. Guy famous for doing 13 of something doesn't have 13 on it anywhere. Guy who leads crusades doesn't have a crusade anthem effect. It doesn't need to be this blatant, obviously, but it should at least be somewhat evocative of the character it's supposed to be. Right? Why use this IP for new designs if you don't want to explore the space?
I have to agree with this. Yes, it's true that "gameplay trumps flavor" if being too adherennt on flavor leads to bad gameplay, but if you have to make a UB character, make mechanically feel the abilities truly belong to that character or the card doesnt even sounds cool but just a wasted chance. But it's also true, that WotC makes often flavor fails with their own IP cards (Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist or Karona, False God as one of the most famous and blatant disappointments ever). But they are not all flavor fails or too generic, they also made many good and flavorful UB cards overall. So yes, matching mechanics with flavor it's an issue, (even if a minor one since gameplay trumps flavor in the end of day), but it's an issue that is separate and independent from the UB thing. Single incompetent designers doesn't make a whole project in which they work with worthless.
There's a lot going on in this thread but I just wanted to say H*ll yeah I love jumpstart this news is amazing everyone play jumpstart with me aaaaaaaaaaaah
Alright I've skimmed this thread and now I definitely want to put together a commander deck solely out of crossover cards. When people ask me what I'm playing I will tell them I'm playing a Stranger Things CCG (please advise if there's a simpler way to get to 5 color than mike and eleven).
I wonder if some element of the problems people have with other IPs getting into Magic is some subconscious recollection of the many, many, many other IPs that tried to compete with Magic using their own card game (sometimes even made by WotC themselves!) that just...died after like two years.
I've been a Vorthos in terms of following the storyline for as long as I've been a player of MTG (I'm PUMPED for Brother's War), but I've never had that same Vorthos feel while actually playing the game. I guess for me, seeing 40K characters randomly showing up in decks doesn't really seem all that different than, say, old school Phyrexians and Innistrad zombies in the same deck. I don't lose my immersion seeing Elves from Lorwyn and Elves from New Capenna in the same deck. The stuff from OG Mirrodin couldn't be any more different than the stuff from OG Kamigawa, but they were in Standard together without breaking the world thematically. What makes Gandalf stand out more than The Reaper King or the Patron of the Akki?
I've been a Vorthos in terms of following the storyline for as long as I've been a player of MTG (I'm PUMPED for Brother's War), but I've never had that same Vorthos feel while actually playing the game. I guess for me, seeing 40K characters randomly showing up in decks doesn't really seem all that different than, say, old school Phyrexians and Innistrad zombies in the same deck. I don't lose my immersion seeing Elves from Lorwyn and Elves from New Capenna in the same deck. The stuff from OG Mirrodin couldn't be any more different than the stuff from OG Kamigawa, but they were in Standard together without breaking the world thematically. What makes Gandalf stand out more than The Reaper King or the Patron of the Akki?
To me, the difference is the surrounding framework. When I used to play, it was not like I actively imagined every turn and every spell cast as a moment in a duel between two planeswalkers. But there was still some sense of "I cast this spell from Kamigawa", "now they summon that creature from Mirrodin" etc. The multiverse is diverse, but all planes still share the mana system etc. and are loosely connected through the general planeswalker lore. Glacial Ray and Light 'Em Up have very different aesthetics but they have the same foundation, and a planeswalker could travel from plane to plane and learn both.
The same thing simply doesn't work with UB - "they summon ... Gandalf? I guess they went to Middle Earth??" But Middle Earth is not part of the MtG universe. It's not just about aesthetics, its about a wider sense of cohesion and (I'm going to use a pretentious word now) ludonarrative.
Until UB, Magic was, for the most part, a single connected universe both gameplay- and flavor-wise (yes, Arabian Nights and P3K happened, but that was very early on, and similar things didn't happen again for 20+ years - clearly showing that WotC wanted to move away from them). I understand that some people enjoy Magic first and foremost as a game, with the cards being nothing more than game pieces that could have any kind of art on them. But I for once was very fond of the unity of gameplay and flavor, a once central part of the game's identity that is now being torn down.
Idk, it's like a Jazz club that suddenly starts playing Top 40 to get more customers. I get why the owners do it, but I just can't approve of it. Pretty much my only choice is to leave the club.
Until UB, Magic was, for the most part, a single connected universe both gameplay- and flavor-wise
To be fair, if we you use that parameter, not even the Unsets fits your personal criterias. (they also take place in they own multiverse and even the rules and mechanics are they own thing not working within our rule system). And one could argue that the flavor behind them it's so silly, being a parody of Magic, that also that could "ruin" the experience.
One could argue : "but uncards are not real Magic cards!" and that's where you would be wrong. To quote MaRo:
So, only because they're not tournaments legal, doesnt make them less real Magic cards in any sort of non-tournament play (at the same way, the exclusive Arena digital-only cards are not less real and effective Magic cards only because are tournament legal in arena but not in paper).
But unsets, exactly as alchemy, exactly as arabian night and P3K are boundaries of Magic broken and pushed in different direction, and every time WotC evolve the game and push it further there will be always be some players that says "no, thats too much, it's jumping the shark, it's betraying the spirit of the game, not for me anymore" (and many, many players said the same thing also when WotC started to create the planeswalker cards, I suggest to read this illuminating article about the the 20 things that were going to kill Magic)
MaRo also explain this wonderfully with this post (that basically just confirm what I am saying here all the time):
Magic, from its very beginning, has always been about pushing boundaries and expanding what it is. Alpha was a hodgepodge of various high fantasy tropes including a variety of sources like Greek mythology, Camelot, Dungeons & Dragons, and Tolkien.
Arabian Nights, the very first expansion, was about Arabian/Persian mythology, literally a top-down design of another source material that had nothing to do with traditional Western fantasy.
And it’s not as if the early years of Magic didn’t push in all sorts of creative directions. A war story of battling robots, an ice age apocalypse, an African saga, a flying ship traveling to a shadow realm, rebellion in a mercantile city. Even the Un-sets date back to 1998, just five years into the game’s life.
If you don’t like the direction of the Magic brand, I would argue you don’t understand what the Magic brand has been since its creation. It was introduced as the game that breaks its own rules, and that’s been true from day one, both mechanically and creatively.
True, we continue to push in new and different directions, so we’re always introducing aspects that you might not have seen before, but that’s what we do. It’s what we’ve always done. Magic is not a brand that lives in a tiny sliver of creative space. It’s a brand that’s constantly expanding and growing. It’s a brand about customization, so we provide a wide swath of choices to let each player maximize what they enjoy. https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/673919801398345728/what-would-you-say-to-someone-who-doesnt-like-the#notes
To conclude, I would argue that the only real basic hard core of game identity and integrity it's ultimately what Richard Garfield called Magic as the result and convergence of the Golden Trifecta : The mana system, the color pie, and collectible nature of the card game. This will not change. This is foundation of the success and survival itself of the game. Everything else (rules, mechanics, lore, flavor, etc.) can and very often should change, because thats the very nature for the game survival : evolution and adaption, trials and errors from times to times, until the end of the brand (I hope as late as possible).
MaRo also explain this wonderfully with this post (that basically just confirm what I am saying here all the time):
Maro also explained that we would never have other IP in Magic, perhaps he's not the best person to be using for this particular argument. It's almost like his "views" changed when Hasbro forced them to make more money and they looked at the AAA video game industry and borrowed so many of their most hated things, like premium time limited skins. Also, the idea that using mythology (Greek/Roman for Theros) to create Magic ideas and lore is the same as copy/pasting stuff from another IP is a poor argument at best.
One shows effort to make it there own the other is using lazy trends where everything must crossover with another for little reason other than hoping it brings in more players for a brief influx of cash. The former is using creativity the other is making Magic even more of a gacha game where you hope you pull your favorite characters.
Maro also explained that we would never have other IP in Magic,
Sources? Links or didn't happen.
Also, the idea that using mythology (Greek/Roman for Theros) to create Magic ideas and lore is the same as copy/pasting stuff from another IP is a poor argument at best.
Re-read the post, you are just picking a tiny 1% of all his arguments and examples in that post. In the biggest scheme of things, even that example makes perfect sense and it's coherent with what WotC modus operandi and spirit always had been and evolved through the years. Oh, but I forgot, you are the same functionally illiterate that doesn't understand what he reads, as you did with my posts (like in this thread), no surprise you are failing to understand MaRo point here also.
Oh look at that, it did happen, and in fact quite a few times. I look forward to the "well things change" or "that was X years ago, it's different now" argument from you.
Re-read the post, you are just picking a tiny 1% of all his arguments and examples in that post.
Because that's all I wanted to address in that moment. If you want me to go through point by point I can certainly discuss each topic and basically write a book length post, but I don't quite feel like that at the moment. I don't need to address every point of his or yours to get to the one I wanted. Sounds like you're trying to gatekeep me, and I thought you didn't like that?
In the biggest scheme of things, even that example makes perfect sense and it's coherent with what WotC modus operandi and spirit always had been and evolved through the years. Oh, but I forgot, you are the same functionally illiterate that doesn't understand what he reads, as you did with my posts (like in this thread), no surprise you are failing to understand MaRo point here also.
Oh wait....I remember you, you're the one that insults people for not liking what you do or dislike something about Magic. I do find it rather humorous you linked that as though it matters in any way per the current conversation, but I can't say that it's surprising coming from you.
Somebody mentioned her being Braids·s ancestor , did anybody have her name on hand ?
-Irini Sengir
Colour pie breaks affect gameplay while UB affects flavour. For a game, altering the gameplay trumps altering the flavour, you're not reading a book or watching a movie here. So no, 3rd party IPs and colour pie breaks are not the same. While they're both arbitrary limits, they have a vastly different impact.
Thanks for the update. Looks like a way to sell theme boosters of 20 cards instead of 35 for basically the same price. I like Jumpstart so I will give them a chance when they come out.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
That's a different matter, because Rabiah was actually the attempt to force the Arabian Night set and characters to be inside (and not outside as the UB sets) the Magic canon lore and multiverse, and if it is now a 10 is exactly because WotC has learned that the best way to do "non-magic IP" it's simply to not put them inside the canon of the magic lore but to be their own thing.
Once again the parallels with phasing is surprisingly fitting : Phasing, the keyword, was a mistake as a drawback mechanic, but phasing out and in at will it's much more likely because it leads to much better gameplay. At the same time, Rabiah, as the attempt to put the "A thousand and one nights" inside the Magic lore was a mistake, and that's why WotC made the fixed version, the UB project, to be free to do any IP without messing with his own canon and lore.
Also all the MaRo scales always talk about what we would see in premier sets (which means, standard legal sets), which has nothing to do if mechanics (storm scale), characters (venser scale) or worlds (rabiah scale) are still allowed to see the light of day in supplemental sets and belong to be in Magic as a whole. (and obviously Modern Horizon and Commander Sets already proved that WotC its more than willing to print new storm cards despite the storm scale is after that mechanic, just not in a premiere sets). So, Rabiah at 10 would still simply say that it's just extremely unlickely that we would see our heroes to face with the goofy old attempt to canonize in Magic world the arabian novel, not that we would not see again Rabiah again in Magic as a whole (which is a totally different thing than a "color pie break", which has no right to exist in the game nowhere). My point still stand.
While I might not like it as a Vorthos, I can see how gameplay trump's flavor in MtG.
I guess in terms of flavor, UB is more like a strong color pie bend instead of a break. White can technically do tax counter spells, yet Wizards has decided to not print them simply because a lot of people don't like counterspells. UB has the same kind of thing going for it, except that Wizards decided that they actually do want to move into that space ... because there are more people who like it than those who don't. I belong to the latter group though.
UB occupies this weird overlapping region between flavor and gameplay. For me, even in terms of gameplay the creative cohesion of Magic as its own universe has always been a big thing. I guess I really bought into the "you are a planeswalker" thing. And that illusion is simply shattered when my opponent can cast Gandalf or a Space Marine at any time. But I guess a lot of people just don't care about that? The point is that if you do, there are now only a few ways left to avoid this kind of experience, like exclusively drafting premier sets.
When I look at UB stuff, I feel what I feel when I look at those *****ty live action remakes that Disney has been putting out. Just take some recognizable faces and characters, slap them on a product, and watch the people come in hordes and rip it from your hands. Very clever from a business standpoint, very sad from a creative standpoint.
For me UB is a box of pandora that I wish Wizards would never have opened. Non-premier sets have been used as loopholes in the past, and maybe at one point, after flooding MtG with too many 3rd party IP products, they will decide that it's better to close it. But for me, it's too late. People will buy the cards because they can't live their lives without having Gandalf on Magic card. Whatever. I'll just never return to the game.
That's why it was cited as an example. If you can't differentiate between that and direct reference then that's on you.
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But you see, I'm also a Vorthos (and a very passionate one) exactly like you, and I'm not bothered at all of UB exactly because they don't hurt or touch in any way the real story and identity of Magic lore (being outside of the mtg multiverse and canon) but are nothing more than fan-services to people that sincerely enjoy to see their own heroes to have a Magic version and to be "part of game" at least gameplay wise if not lorewise.
It is not so uncommon that you see, even in tournaments, altered cards that depict whatever media players enjoy right? (like I don't know, batman painted over the art of a Vampire Nighthawk or something). Sure, you might not like it, it might partially ruin your personal immersion to the game but you can't control what other players enjoy to see and express themselves through Magic within their own decks.
And thats exactly why WotC will make Magic versions of the Secret Lairs UB cards or the use of the Godzilla-treatment : to let people enjoy the same game each with his own favorite immersion. It's sounds a good and reasonable compromise to me.
You can always ask the people you're playing with to use decks without UB cards if possible, it's not like they represent the majority of the game.
this will probably end up being more of a thing for me as we move further into UB.
when someone sits down with a UB themed deck it puts me in a situation where i'm really not enjoying the experience because to me it just isn't magic.
yeah, people alter cards all the time, but it was a rare and fringe thing - that made it cool - by emphasizing UB that makes it more accessible and more abundant. that means at the end of the day the only uniqueness to magic is the card mechanics. magic has spent 30 years world building and for me its as much a part of the game as playing the game.
while i can ask someone to play something else because my experience will be hindered by facing off against space marines and gandalf, they'll end up having a bad experience too because i'm trying to get them to experience the game a different way - yet both ways are now part of the game. if i'm at an event and someone doesn't have a different deck, i have no choice, i play with a diminished less immersive experience, or i choose not to play at all.
i do foresee sitting down at edh pods and someone busting out the necrons precon, not having anything else, and me simply saying 'great okay, i'm going to sit this one out then' which should be a valid choice - but it won't be because of how feels bad and petty that will be for everyone else involved. its not quite like saying i don't want to play your stax deck, because here this is purely aesthetic.
really though, i've already noticed instead of putting people through that, or myself through that, i just you know... don't go to events any more. if i'm going to be forced to experience UB polluting the core experience that is 30 years of magic worldbuilding, game design, and experience... i kind of just, won't bother to be in that situation at all.
here think of it this way: the thomas the tank engine mod for skyrim is fun, once or twice. every single time you turn the game on and without any choice to turn it off? that stops being skyrim, and it stops being an enjoyable experience.
yeah, there are a lot of people who are for this UB stuff, but there are a lot who aren't and the ones who aren't just end up walking away feeling trampled and ignored. frustrated that the game is evolving into a novelty without an identity of its own after having established one for decades. UB would've been fine as silver border optional content.
UB plus all the absurd variants you can open in packs now really does make it feel as if the game is transition to be more of a collectors piece like sports cards than an interactive, immersive, gaming experience.
there's a lot more to magic than just the card back and card mechanics. its not like monopoly where that doesn't play into some greater story/world building experience. this won't be healthy but it's going to take time to really rot from the inside out.
What I don't and will never understand is why it seems they've picked IP with deep lore, but slap new art of "the thing we recognize" on generic designs. Abaddon for example is fine, or even good. Y'know, whatever. But what about the design screams abaddon? absolutely nothing. Guy famous for destroying a planet doesn't destroy lands. Guy famous for doing 13 of something doesn't have 13 on it anywhere. Guy who leads crusades doesn't have a
crusadeanthem effect. It doesn't need to be this blatant, obviously, but it should at least be somewhat evocative of the character it's supposed to be. Right? Why use this IP for new designs if you don't want to explore the space?The instant is the opposite. Cool, thematic, spot on design. 8, aethyr, got it. More you fight, more powerful you become in the eyes of this particular god. amazing. Appropriately costed too. Freakin' sweet.
I have to agree with this. Yes, it's true that "gameplay trumps flavor" if being too adherennt on flavor leads to bad gameplay, but if you have to make a UB character, make mechanically feel the abilities truly belong to that character or the card doesnt even sounds cool but just a wasted chance. But it's also true, that WotC makes often flavor fails with their own IP cards (Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist or Karona, False God as one of the most famous and blatant disappointments ever). But they are not all flavor fails or too generic, they also made many good and flavorful UB cards overall. So yes, matching mechanics with flavor it's an issue, (even if a minor one since gameplay trumps flavor in the end of day), but it's an issue that is separate and independent from the UB thing. Single incompetent designers doesn't make a whole project in which they work with worthless.
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The same thing simply doesn't work with UB - "they summon ... Gandalf? I guess they went to Middle Earth??" But Middle Earth is not part of the MtG universe. It's not just about aesthetics, its about a wider sense of cohesion and (I'm going to use a pretentious word now) ludonarrative.
Until UB, Magic was, for the most part, a single connected universe both gameplay- and flavor-wise (yes, Arabian Nights and P3K happened, but that was very early on, and similar things didn't happen again for 20+ years - clearly showing that WotC wanted to move away from them). I understand that some people enjoy Magic first and foremost as a game, with the cards being nothing more than game pieces that could have any kind of art on them. But I for once was very fond of the unity of gameplay and flavor, a once central part of the game's identity that is now being torn down.
Idk, it's like a Jazz club that suddenly starts playing Top 40 to get more customers. I get why the owners do it, but I just can't approve of it. Pretty much my only choice is to leave the club.
That is what this feels like .
-Irini Sengir
To be fair, if we you use that parameter, not even the Unsets fits your personal criterias. (they also take place in they own multiverse and even the rules and mechanics are they own thing not working within our rule system). And one could argue that the flavor behind them it's so silly, being a parody of Magic, that also that could "ruin" the experience.
One could argue : "but uncards are not real Magic cards!" and that's where you would be wrong. To quote MaRo:
" There’s a spectrum of competition to casualness. Magic, for many years, focused much more on the competitive end of the spectrum, so for a lot of players that became the definition for what Magic was. Un-sets introduce elements that feel out of place with that definition and thus don’t feel like “real Magic” to them. A different subset (with some overlap) don’t like the overall humorous tone."
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/670301447412432896/can-you-help-me-understand-why-people-dont-like#notes
"People who enjoy playing Un-cards are just as much Magic players as those who don’t. Their decks are just as much Magic decks as those that don’t include them. Rolling a die is as real in Unstable as it in AFR."
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/656293237883060224/i-keep-seeing-people-say-that-its-gatekeeping#notes
So, only because they're not tournaments legal, doesnt make them less real Magic cards in any sort of non-tournament play (at the same way, the exclusive Arena digital-only cards are not less real and effective Magic cards only because are tournament legal in arena but not in paper).
But unsets, exactly as alchemy, exactly as arabian night and P3K are boundaries of Magic broken and pushed in different direction, and every time WotC evolve the game and push it further there will be always be some players that says "no, thats too much, it's jumping the shark, it's betraying the spirit of the game, not for me anymore" (and many, many players said the same thing also when WotC started to create the planeswalker cards, I suggest to read this illuminating article about the the 20 things that were going to kill Magic)
MaRo also explain this wonderfully with this post (that basically just confirm what I am saying here all the time):
Magic, from its very beginning, has always been about pushing boundaries and expanding what it is. Alpha was a hodgepodge of various high fantasy tropes including a variety of sources like Greek mythology, Camelot, Dungeons & Dragons, and Tolkien.
Arabian Nights, the very first expansion, was about Arabian/Persian mythology, literally a top-down design of another source material that had nothing to do with traditional Western fantasy.
And it’s not as if the early years of Magic didn’t push in all sorts of creative directions. A war story of battling robots, an ice age apocalypse, an African saga, a flying ship traveling to a shadow realm, rebellion in a mercantile city. Even the Un-sets date back to 1998, just five years into the game’s life.
If you don’t like the direction of the Magic brand, I would argue you don’t understand what the Magic brand has been since its creation. It was introduced as the game that breaks its own rules, and that’s been true from day one, both mechanically and creatively.
True, we continue to push in new and different directions, so we’re always introducing aspects that you might not have seen before, but that’s what we do. It’s what we’ve always done. Magic is not a brand that lives in a tiny sliver of creative space. It’s a brand that’s constantly expanding and growing. It’s a brand about customization, so we provide a wide swath of choices to let each player maximize what they enjoy.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/673919801398345728/what-would-you-say-to-someone-who-doesnt-like-the#notes
-Irini Sengir
Maro also explained that we would never have other IP in Magic, perhaps he's not the best person to be using for this particular argument. It's almost like his "views" changed when Hasbro forced them to make more money and they looked at the AAA video game industry and borrowed so many of their most hated things, like premium time limited skins. Also, the idea that using mythology (Greek/Roman for Theros) to create Magic ideas and lore is the same as copy/pasting stuff from another IP is a poor argument at best.
One shows effort to make it there own the other is using lazy trends where everything must crossover with another for little reason other than hoping it brings in more players for a brief influx of cash. The former is using creativity the other is making Magic even more of a gacha game where you hope you pull your favorite characters.
Sources? Links or didn't happen.
Re-read the post, you are just picking a tiny 1% of all his arguments and examples in that post. In the biggest scheme of things, even that example makes perfect sense and it's coherent with what WotC modus operandi and spirit always had been and evolved through the years. Oh, but I forgot, you are the same functionally illiterate that doesn't understand what he reads, as you did with my posts (like in this thread), no surprise you are failing to understand MaRo point here also.
Oh look at that, it did happen, and in fact quite a few times. I look forward to the "well things change" or "that was X years ago, it's different now" argument from you.
Because that's all I wanted to address in that moment. If you want me to go through point by point I can certainly discuss each topic and basically write a book length post, but I don't quite feel like that at the moment. I don't need to address every point of his or yours to get to the one I wanted. Sounds like you're trying to gatekeep me, and I thought you didn't like that?
Oh wait....I remember you, you're the one that insults people for not liking what you do or dislike something about Magic. I do find it rather humorous you linked that as though it matters in any way per the current conversation, but I can't say that it's surprising coming from you.
and the human substrate , they just perform these machinations endlessly ?
-Irini Sengir