The unfortunate result of only some cards being eternal legal will be that their price will skyrocket because people who open the packs and will be willing to sell singles from them will want to get back as much as possible and only the eternal legal cards will have any significant resell value.
So you just indicated that you buy singles and not packs. No problem there. But that's the secondary market, not a sure thing for pack sales, which benefits them directly. That's an indirect thing. And you are choosy. No problem there. But that kind of indicates that you are choosing what is fun rather than the whole thing being fun. The problem is always this: eternal formats have always been pricey. Players have always know and accepted that. The issue becomes that playing in eternal formats goes from being a matter of getting what comes out a few times a year, to dealing with a deluge of legal cards. The amount of cards that appear in just certain products that are incredible (to name one, the goblin who makes treasure tokens from that one Commander set or the others from Jumpstart) but may not be available for purchase easily becomes a problem. They make money selling packs,and the secondary market supports that. If you spread so much product that comes out RELENTLESSLY as they have been in the last few years, you got an issue, even for whales like me. Having the chance to crack a cool card cannot be underestimated. They have shifted toward digital, which is fine, but digital is far more easily dropped than the social experience of physical Magic, especially in light of the sunk cost of digital purchases being somewhat illusory on places like Arena. It's just gotten out of hand. As a former Hasbro stock holder, I get why they are getting pressured to do what they do. But current results are not predictive and can always regress despite whatever numbers you have. The generations of Magic change, so your numbers today are not predictive.
Maros explanation for why they shifted to black border and the acorn stamp sounds like very convoluted way to say "corporate needed these sets to make more money, so this is how we did it."
The entire reason they did away with From the Vault was this. Then they just rebranded it, slapped a bunch of "weird" (ooh!!) slush art together, and threw into overdrive with Secret Lairs. And made millions. It's really an impressive trick.
Maro's been jamming Un-sets down our throats for 20 years now. They were always a vanity project and remain so. Someone (Gavin, I assume) finally went to him and said hey, we can't fart around with this nonsense anymore so they compromised and said let's make it Eternal Commander legal. That's the only reason any of this is happening. And yep, they'll make millions off Un-sets now so we'll be dealing with this nonsense forever now too. It's really great.
Maros explanation for why they shifted to black border and the acorn stamp sounds like very convoluted way to say "corporate needed these sets to make more money, so this is how we did it." To me this means that these sets will have less wacky designs (what Un-Sets were once known for) and a lot more cards that are just "merely funny" based on art and concept alone.
I don't like how much all the different Secret Lairs, Universes Beyond, and now black-bordered Un-Sets are starting to detract from Magic's core aesthetic. I guess I'm the minority here and most players just don't care, but to me it kind of feels like pumping SpongeBob Squarepants skins into a Lord of the Rings game.
The article does say the black borders were slapped on after the set was more or less done, but you do you I guess.
Fact of the matter is, Un-sets are enjoyed only for the land slot. They're a waste of cardboard to an overwhelming majority of players, who wouldn't mind ripping them up for fun. Magic players treat wasps with a higher regard than silver border. I enjoy the gameplay, sure, but I can never truly enjoy playing them knowing the utter disdain the general playerbase has over cards that aren't "real Magic." Adding black border to things like Target Minotaur would up their playability and maybe their value in the eyes of many players. That's not even getting into how much of silver border goes directly into the trash, making this shift of the most environmentally-friendly changes they've made in years.
All I have always wanted is a eternal legal Goblin Bookie. As die rolling is now eternal legal, it works totally.
No, it doesn't. In real black-bordered magic (not this crappy black-faced silver border mess), nothing can interrupt the resolution of a spell or ability, which means you don't actually have priority to activate the bookie. If Diviner's Portent or Contact Other Plane is on the stack, you don't roll the die until it starts to resolve, so you can't re-roll before that. And once it starts resolving, it has to complete resolution, including scrying/drawing based on the die result. You wouldn't have priority until after it was off the stack. At which point it makes zero sense to allow a re-roll because you've already accessed and potentially changed hidden information. There's no room for this ability in eternal formats.
For eternal formats, you need something more along the lines of Krark's Other Thumb, which replaces the die roll as it happens, rather than trying to change it after the fact.
So you just indicated that you buy singles and not packs. No problem there.
No? I clearly said that I buy packs for draft purposes where I find the product a fresh and innovative experience (Like Battlebond or Conspiracy style sets). I also the same guy that buy everything related to non-traditional Magic game like Archenemy and Planechase products and actually use them.
EDIT: I wanna be clearer. I buy sometimes packs for drafts today, in those most recent times. But in the past, I buyed dozen of entire boxes for years, the time I was playing competitve Type2 Magic (period scars of mirrodin until the end of theros). Most of the thosands of money I spend on the game were there.
And you are choosy. No problem there. But that kind of indicates that you are choosing what is fun rather than the whole thing being fun.
No, I simply know that not everything is meant for everybody. And WotC itself agree with this idea, MaRo multiple times state this in his blog. Every product have his specific target, so we have products specifically aimed for casual players, competitive players, occasional players, enfranchised players and so on. Not "buying everything" doesn't equal the fact that I don't enjoy the game in his whole dimension. "Buying always everything Wotc does" is for compulsive collectors, and that's actually a not very healthy way to approach the game, not even encouraged from WotC itself!
The generations of Magic change, so your numbers today are not predictive.
I didnt said any numbers, I just reported my personal every-day experience of what is around me and the fact the WotC itself states in their most recent marketing data that most of their recent products sells well, players are actually happy to buy their products and that they actually fix problems when they see something seriously upset most players (like how they recently managed the whole Secret Lair unique cards problem, promising to reprint in-Magic version of the Walking Dead cards in regular magic boosters)
The article states that it is a Lhurgoyf but I think I like your thought process as I recently opened a Bear Cub in one of my Set Booster boxes and that has a mana value of 1G the same as Tarmogoyf. Lol
Pauper master's is a silly idea. What, I'm going to pay 10 bucks for a pack full of crappy Commons? Awesome.
It would be 4 dollars a pack (they would shove a full art land, alternate art card and foil in every pack you can be assured) and have you checked the prices of some of Pauper staples? No you haven't. Don't be silly.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Fact of the matter is, Un-sets are enjoyed only for the land slot. They're a waste of cardboard to an overwhelming majority of players, who wouldn't mind ripping them up for fun. Magic players treat wasps with a higher regard than silver border. I enjoy the gameplay, sure, but I can never truly enjoy playing them knowing the utter disdain the general playerbase has over cards that aren't "real Magic." Adding black border to things like Target Minotaur would up their playability and maybe their value in the eyes of many players. That's not even getting into how much of silver border goes directly into the trash, making this shift of the most environmentally-friendly changes they've made in years.
If that was the issue with Un-Sets, I wish they would just stop doing them altogether and make regular sets instead. I do not like how more and more stuff is being crept into black border just to have it sell better, while the eternal formats are getting pumped full with more and more trash that doesn't matter to or fit Magic's core aesthetic. Yes, yes, I can already hear the cries of "let people enjoy things!" and "but companies have to make money!" I've known for a long time that this is a losing battle. People apparently just can't enjoy different things separately from each other, everything has to be mashed together, even if it doesn't make any sense. Im sorry that I'm sounding like a grumpy old man here, but Wizards once had standards regarding the overall design of their game that went beyond "if people like it, let them have it (but make them pay premium for it)" and what we have now is just sad.
Maros explanation for why they shifted to black border and the acorn stamp sounds like very convoluted way to say "corporate needed these sets to make more money, so this is how we did it." To me this means that these sets will have less wacky designs (what Un-Sets were once known for) and a lot more cards that are just "merely funny" based on art and concept alone.
I don't like how much all the different Secret Lairs, Universes Beyond, and now black-bordered Un-Sets are starting to detract from Magic's core aesthetic. I guess I'm the minority here and most players just don't care, but to me it kind of feels like pumping SpongeBob Squarepants skins into a Lord of the Rings game.
The article does say the black borders were slapped on after the set was more or less done, but you do you I guess.
-If those kids could read meme-
Add on Maro has stated (at the time) Unstable was the best selling non-Master side set and they added in the shocks this set would have sold well even without making the more tame card legal.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I think it's a great idea, and I've been waiting for it. I'd be a lot more likely to buy packs of that than any expensive premium booster, just so long as it had the price of a normal booster.
And peasant masters is even easier to design. There is no lack of great uncommons that need reprints.
A big part of why is that they wouldn't be 10 bucks a pack. It would be 4 bucks
It's funny that you both think WotC wouldn't sell it at a premium price. Of course it would be 10 bucks a pack, because they know there are people out there who would pay that.
A big part of why is that they wouldn't be 10 bucks a pack. It would be 4 bucks
It's funny that you both think WotC wouldn't sell it at a premium price. Of course it would be 10 bucks a pack, because they know there are people out there who would pay that.
Well I would buy it at four bucks a pack. I have difficulty seeing who would buy it higher, but I guess it would still be a good thing because it would deflate prices. But yeah, if they did charge premium prices, everybody would shout and scream on the internet about how dumb it was. And they'd be right to do so.
It's not like I buy masters sets, but I'm still happy about them because they bring prices down.
It's funny that you both think WotC wouldn't sell it at a premium price. Of course it would be 10 bucks a pack, because they know there are people out there who would pay that.
Well whales would also pay 10 dollars for normal boosters, but I don't think "some rich people would pay 10 bucks for a booster of commons" it's a great argument to prove a point. Especially with Pauper, a word that itself means "poverty", and "cheap price" its the whole point and sense and appeal of the format. Would be a total anti-marketing move.
Let's just say it's just more likely WotC would never do a pauper master than pricing it 10 bucks as you say.
A big part of why is that they wouldn't be 10 bucks a pack. It would be 4 bucks
It's funny that you both think WotC wouldn't sell it at a premium price. Of course it would be 10 bucks a pack, because they know there are people out there who would pay that.
Well I would buy it at four bucks a pack. I have difficulty seeing who would buy it higher, but I guess it would still be a good thing because it would deflate prices. But yeah, if they did charge premium prices, everybody would shout and scream on the internet about how dumb it was. And they'd be right to do so.
It's not like I buy masters sets, but I'm still happy about them because they bring prices down.
I would as well as a ton of Pauper players too. I would even pop for 6 dollar packs with a guaranteed foil, guaranteed snow basic and a guaranteed alternate art card of the chosen "uncommon" and "rare" commons and the set not beholden to draft by limiting the card pool to those commons most used in Pauper itself. If it were draft boosters then yes 4 dollars a pack with my recommendations above and not a penny more.
Do I see the greed machine that is Hasbro/WotC doing it for 4 bucks a pack, no way. You have no farther than to look at this latest Un set and its cash grab priorities.
It's funny that you both think WotC wouldn't sell it at a premium price. Of course it would be 10 bucks a pack, because they know there are people out there who would pay that.
I can't help it that some people have far more money than sense and WotC is right there to take advantage of them. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. Probably every 30 seconds in the Magic community.
This will be the last I post on this topic in this thread as it doesn't need to be needlessly derailed. Get your free shot in but I'm done.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Maros explanation for why they shifted to black border and the acorn stamp sounds like very convoluted way to say "corporate needed these sets to make more money, so this is how we did it." To me this means that these sets will have less wacky designs (what Un-Sets were once known for) and a lot more cards that are just "merely funny" based on art and concept alone.
I don't like how much all the different Secret Lairs, Universes Beyond, and now black-bordered Un-Sets are starting to detract from Magic's core aesthetic. I guess I'm the minority here and most players just don't care, but to me it kind of feels like pumping SpongeBob Squarepants skins into a Lord of the Rings game.
The article does say the black borders were slapped on after the set was more or less done, but you do you I guess.
-If those kids could read meme-
Expecting reading comprehension? From Magic players? It's 2021, we should have abandoned that long ago.
It is surprising that they managed to have less than half the cards be acorn. A quick thought experiment shows though, that it is not that hard. Counting cards by cardname (since Unstable features functionally distinct - but similar - cards that share a name e. g. Knight of the Kitchen Sink and multi-art cards like Amateur Auteur) one could make an estimation what ratio of cards of Unstable would have been eternal/acorn respectively.
Making the assumption that they would have made Augment/Host, contraptions/assemble and die rolls eternal because these seem like something the rules could handle, or at least could have been made so without major changes to the concept, white would have had 13 eternal cards and 10 acorn cards.
Of the acorn cards By Gnome Means strikes me as a card that they might have altered slightly to make it eternal. Do-It-Yourself Seraph, using the "additional text box" mechanic, is something they might have considered rules-fixing as well, but is borderline. Technically, I cannot even guarantee that it is not possible to do it in eternal/black-border, it just has additional implications in acorn/silver-border due to stealing watermarks and flavor text.
So 56% to 65% of white could have ended up not being acorn in Unstable if they had tried. And beyond the colors, I think all Contrpations would qualify, that's flat 75% of artifacts in the set, before counting Angelic Rocket, Krark's Other Thumb, Curious Killbot etc. I'm not too shocked, since Unstablefeels less over-the-top weird, but more high-variance wacky, when compared to Unglued/Unhinged - and even there we have Assquatch and similar cards that are okay once you get rid of fractions.
I feel the set's design really might not have changed all that much to arrive at these numbers.
Concerns regarding visibility of acorn stamp vs. silver border might still be valid, but in the end every format has its ban list that is not marked on the cards either, so in the end we will be able to deal with that, too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I am glad the Un products exist but I feel they are sucking air from some much needed products
1. Pioneer Masters
2. Pauper Masters
3. Mystery Booster Round Two
4. Time Spiral Remastered "style" set (Maybe Lorwyn, Alara or original Mirrodin blocks)
5. Signature Spellbooks (Liliana, Garruk, Sorin, Karn, etc.)
I don't think "Pauper Masters" would be a good product.... I mean.... full common boosters?
other stuff should come out sometime down the line, but IMO, the un-set, specially with some eternal legal cards like this one are more interesing than everything you proposed, except maybe (and it's a big maybe) Pioneer Masters
Yes to Pioneer Masters please. I've always wanted a Sliver Hive depicting the M14/M15 Slivers.
The entire reason they did away with From the Vault was this. Then they just rebranded it, slapped a bunch of "weird" (ooh!!) slush art together, and threw into overdrive with Secret Lairs. And made millions. It's really an impressive trick.
Maro's been jamming Un-sets down our throats for 20 years now. They were always a vanity project and remain so. Someone (Gavin, I assume) finally went to him and said hey, we can't fart around with this nonsense anymore so they compromised and said let's make it
EternalCommander legal. That's the only reason any of this is happening. And yep, they'll make millions off Un-sets now so we'll be dealing with this nonsense forever now too. It's really great.Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Fact of the matter is, Un-sets are enjoyed only for the land slot. They're a waste of cardboard to an overwhelming majority of players, who wouldn't mind ripping them up for fun. Magic players treat wasps with a higher regard than silver border. I enjoy the gameplay, sure, but I can never truly enjoy playing them knowing the utter disdain the general playerbase has over cards that aren't "real Magic." Adding black border to things like Target Minotaur would up their playability and maybe their value in the eyes of many players. That's not even getting into how much of silver border goes directly into the trash, making this shift of the most environmentally-friendly changes they've made in years.
For eternal formats, you need something more along the lines of Krark's Other Thumb, which replaces the die roll as it happens, rather than trying to change it after the fact.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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No? I clearly said that I buy packs for draft purposes where I find the product a fresh and innovative experience (Like Battlebond or Conspiracy style sets). I also the same guy that buy everything related to non-traditional Magic game like Archenemy and Planechase products and actually use them.
EDIT: I wanna be clearer. I buy sometimes packs for drafts today, in those most recent times. But in the past, I buyed dozen of entire boxes for years, the time I was playing competitve Type2 Magic (period scars of mirrodin until the end of theros). Most of the thosands of money I spend on the game were there.
No, I simply know that not everything is meant for everybody. And WotC itself agree with this idea, MaRo multiple times state this in his blog. Every product have his specific target, so we have products specifically aimed for casual players, competitive players, occasional players, enfranchised players and so on. Not "buying everything" doesn't equal the fact that I don't enjoy the game in his whole dimension. "Buying always everything Wotc does" is for compulsive collectors, and that's actually a not very healthy way to approach the game, not even encouraged from WotC itself!
I didnt said any numbers, I just reported my personal every-day experience of what is around me and the fact the WotC itself states in their most recent marketing data that most of their recent products sells well, players are actually happy to buy their products and that they actually fix problems when they see something seriously upset most players (like how they recently managed the whole Secret Lair unique cards problem, promising to reprint in-Magic version of the Walking Dead cards in regular magic boosters)
It's a Razorclaw Bear in a Lhurgoyf suit!
It would be 4 dollars a pack (they would shove a full art land, alternate art card and foil in every pack you can be assured) and have you checked the prices of some of Pauper staples? No you haven't. Don't be silly.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
-If those kids could read meme-
Add on Maro has stated (at the time) Unstable was the best selling non-Master side set and they added in the shocks this set would have sold well even without making the more tame card legal.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I fully disagree. I think peasant and pauper masters would both be great sets. A big part of why is that they wouldn't be 10 bucks a pack. It would be 4 bucks, and would contain some chase commons like Rhystic Study, Chain lightning, Sinkhole, Lotus Petal, Manamorphose, Cabal Ritual, Priest of Titania, and Utopia Sprawl. Plus any number of great, but not highly expensive cards like Mana Leak, Harrow, and Soul Warden. Some, like Freed from the Real and Oubliette are just in need of a reprint. And of course rarity downshifts like they did with Mortician Beetle add to the fun.
I think it's a great idea, and I've been waiting for it. I'd be a lot more likely to buy packs of that than any expensive premium booster, just so long as it had the price of a normal booster.
And peasant masters is even easier to design. There is no lack of great uncommons that need reprints.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Not only that, but WotC would still stick to rarity, so enjoy opening a mythic Brainstorm or Manamorphose.
It's funny that you both think WotC wouldn't sell it at a premium price. Of course it would be 10 bucks a pack, because they know there are people out there who would pay that.
Well I would buy it at four bucks a pack. I have difficulty seeing who would buy it higher, but I guess it would still be a good thing because it would deflate prices. But yeah, if they did charge premium prices, everybody would shout and scream on the internet about how dumb it was. And they'd be right to do so.
It's not like I buy masters sets, but I'm still happy about them because they bring prices down.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Well whales would also pay 10 dollars for normal boosters, but I don't think "some rich people would pay 10 bucks for a booster of commons" it's a great argument to prove a point. Especially with Pauper, a word that itself means "poverty", and "cheap price" its the whole point and sense and appeal of the format. Would be a total anti-marketing move.
Let's just say it's just more likely WotC would never do a pauper master than pricing it 10 bucks as you say.
The most expensive commons are all trash cards from P3K and cards that have been reprinted already. Some of them both (Three Visits)
I would as well as a ton of Pauper players too. I would even pop for 6 dollar packs with a guaranteed foil, guaranteed snow basic and a guaranteed alternate art card of the chosen "uncommon" and "rare" commons and the set not beholden to draft by limiting the card pool to those commons most used in Pauper itself. If it were draft boosters then yes 4 dollars a pack with my recommendations above and not a penny more.
Do I see the greed machine that is Hasbro/WotC doing it for 4 bucks a pack, no way. You have no farther than to look at this latest Un set and its cash grab priorities.
I can't help it that some people have far more money than sense and WotC is right there to take advantage of them. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. Probably every 30 seconds in the Magic community.
This will be the last I post on this topic in this thread as it doesn't need to be needlessly derailed. Get your free shot in but I'm done.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
those would be good
how about “Pioneer Horizons” cards not legal in standard but legal in pioneer and the other eternal formats.
It is surprising that they managed to have less than half the cards be acorn. A quick thought experiment shows though, that it is not that hard. Counting cards by cardname (since Unstable features functionally distinct - but similar - cards that share a name e. g. Knight of the Kitchen Sink and multi-art cards like Amateur Auteur) one could make an estimation what ratio of cards of Unstable would have been eternal/acorn respectively.
Making the assumption that they would have made Augment/Host, contraptions/assemble and die rolls eternal because these seem like something the rules could handle, or at least could have been made so without major changes to the concept, white would have had 13 eternal cards and 10 acorn cards.
Of the acorn cards By Gnome Means strikes me as a card that they might have altered slightly to make it eternal. Do-It-Yourself Seraph, using the "additional text box" mechanic, is something they might have considered rules-fixing as well, but is borderline. Technically, I cannot even guarantee that it is not possible to do it in eternal/black-border, it just has additional implications in acorn/silver-border due to stealing watermarks and flavor text.
So 56% to 65% of white could have ended up not being acorn in Unstable if they had tried. And beyond the colors, I think all Contrpations would qualify, that's flat 75% of artifacts in the set, before counting Angelic Rocket, Krark's Other Thumb, Curious Killbot etc. I'm not too shocked, since Unstable feels less over-the-top weird, but more high-variance wacky, when compared to Unglued/Unhinged - and even there we have Assquatch and similar cards that are okay once you get rid of fractions.
I feel the set's design really might not have changed all that much to arrive at these numbers.
Concerns regarding visibility of acorn stamp vs. silver border might still be valid, but in the end every format has its ban list that is not marked on the cards either, so in the end we will be able to deal with that, too.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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I don't think "Pauper Masters" would be a good product.... I mean.... full common boosters?
other stuff should come out sometime down the line, but IMO, the un-set, specially with some eternal legal cards like this one are more interesing than everything you proposed, except maybe (and it's a big maybe) Pioneer Masters
Three words:
FOIL
RAGING
BULL
!!!