He's upset like many older players that Commander completely just bumrushed "classic" 60-card casual Magic and it just wasn't even kind of subtle. Commander just TOOK OVER (good, bad, whatever..it's HAPPENING!!)
All the 'casual' precons are now Commander precons. 60-card casual isn't really a thing they even talk about anymore and that's a little sad. People have been playing that way since Alpha. Our format had regular internet content & articles each week. We had metas. We had staples. We had entire articles devoted to game 'casual' game theory. Yep, just like Commander. 20 years worth of it. It really wasn't a bunch of blathering drooling idiots sitting around their kitchen tables "just playing whatever crap we had lying around" like everyone seems to think.
"60 cards casual" was always a *****ty format. It was so *****ty that it doesn't even have a proper name. It was played by people because they didn't know better. As soon as they did, they moved from that failed "format". When a new casual emerged, people started to play that in bulk. Because commander was an improvement.
You may personally disagree, but the vast majority of customers spoke loudly.
Wrong. WOTC could have easily charged you $25 for the Innistrad ones, but guess what. those ones are the $50 variety, according to preorder on most stores I visited. WOTC will never charge $25 for Commander decks ever again. I could be wrong though, maybe the Kamigawa one will be the $25 kind.
Sounds like the problem is you buying from *****ty sites. I can get them for the same prices as the Kaldheim ones.
Speaking of entry points for standard, those Commander decks are entry points for standard? Most of the deck isn't even standard legal. Do you know what this means? People who learn through Commander will stick with Commander, not like they are going to play Standard anyway considering how it sucks right now.
And you think that old precons were entry points for standard? Planeswalker decks were entry point for standards? Are you that delusional?
You know what happened when someone wanted to play standard with the old precon system? They tossed away their precon and started building a new. Nowadays we just eliminated a passage.
If every single 60-card base rules precons are failures, it's because WOTC sucked at making them good. First few Duel Decks, good. The last few ones, horrible, well according to most other people anyway. This also tells me another thing, which I said in my initial rant a few months ago. WOTC has no confidence in the 60-card base rules game, which is why we get Commander and more Commander now. What's to say that WOTC does something like, "Commander is printing us money, Standard isn't. Why are we even trying with Standard anymore?"
So they failed making a product almost all the time but they should continue trying?
While commander precons are always successfull, they should stop making them?
Maybe if "60 cards casual" products failed so much, it's because they have no reason to exists in the first place.
You aren't even coherent. You talk about standard, then duel decks, then standard again. Duel decks were never standard legal. They were an entry point for nothing. They weren't useful in any 60-cards format.
I already mentioned the pioneer decks. When I initially ranted about that, and that was when we got Commander decks in the D&D set instead of Planeswalker decks, it is because those who like to play 60-card base rules precons get relegated to just 4 choices for 2021.
Be happy about that instead of ranting. 4 decks is still more than what you deserved.
WOTC cares about money now. They don't care about the game. Magic is dying. Yup, I said it. Magic is dying, well at least the ruleset in which the game is founded upon is dying, at least on Paper. WOTC can just half-ass their Standard sets, because they know Commander will print them money. If 60-card base rules wasn't dying, then WOTC would be confident in printing more 60-card base rules precons.
Ahahahahah, how can you be so short-sighted? Stop thinking that everything in the world revolves around you. They stopped printing products that you personally like. They welcomed and are entertaining tons of new players with commander. Mtg is nowhere near close to dying and when it will start to decline, it won't be because of commander.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Most, if not all stores in Canada, the Canada where it is cheaper to buy from a LGS than a Walmart and, uh Walmart (Canadians don't have a Target, but they still have a Toys R Us), and considering anybody not in the US can't order from a US site, or is that not a thing anymore? I remember that I can't order some old Intro Packs I didn't own because of this stupid policy that to help Brick and Mortar stores in your local country, you can't order sealed product online from a different country. I understand if it was new product, but old product that my local Brick and Mortar stores don't carry anyway?
All I really ask for is for WOTC to not give Commander way too much attention, much so, that 60-card base rules becomes obsolete, and that I really hope the Pioneer Challenger Decks are here to stay. It's always easy to give the minority of players who want to play the game a certain way nothing, when you can make everything for the majority when that is where the money comes from.
WOTC never gave Modern Event Decks a chance. Ok, a $75 precon was a stupid idea. They never gave Brawl Decks a chance. I don't think Pioneer Challenger Decks will work out for the same reason the Modern Event Deck never worked out. Unless the decks are super good, charging a lot for it is always a bad idea. Why couldn't they just create some $15 60-card base rules precons that are upgradable? Why are they so incompetent in making such a product?
I really hope Pioneer Event Decks are an annual thing for a long time, and even if it isn't, at least some form of set of 4 precon decks focused on some sort of 60-card base rules format is there to replace it, so long as we get 10 total 60-card base rules precons per year.
They could either go 4 Challenger Decks, 1 Arena Starter Kit with 2 Decks, and 4 more 60-card base rules decks.
They could go 5 Challenger Decks, and 5 more 60-card base rules decks, either they could be the Pioneer Challenger Decks, or decks aimed at new players.
They could do 4 Challenger decks and 2 Arena Starter Kit style decks, but released along 3 of the 4 sets, the 3 sets that don't have the main Commander release.
All of which total 10 60-card base rules precons.
My initial rant was about how WOTC said that there at least was something for those who want to learn using the 60-card base rules method. Then 2021 happened and that method just disappeared. It's as if they think that those who want to learn using the 60-card base rules method don't exist, or that playgroups who don't play Commander don't exist. That is what ticks me off. "People want to play what their friends play, and that is Commander". So what if a new player's friends don't play Commander, or what if that new player only have one friend, and because it's only 1 friend, we play 1 vs 1 formats? Ok, there is the Arena Starter Kit, but having only 2 decks for the entire year will only last them so long, and not only that, the variety is so limited. I kind of view the loss of Planeswalker Decks in 2021 Core set in favor of Commander Decks in the D&D set as sort of a betrayal. Those who want to play quick casual games of 60-card base rules, where it doesn't matter whether we win or lose, now get nothing. It's WOTC saying that players like us don't exist.
I'd say do 4 Challenger Decks, and 3 of the 4 sets will have 2 Commander decks, and 2 casual 60-card base rules precons, while the last set would be the main Commander release with 5 Commander Decks. That is the best way to release precons, and keep it that way.
It's as if WOTC is so incompetent at making $15 60-card base rules precons that they gave up.
He's upset like many older players that Commander completely just bumrushed "classic" 60-card casual Magic and it just wasn't even kind of subtle. Commander just TOOK OVER (good, bad, whatever..it's HAPPENING!!)
All the 'casual' precons are now Commander precons. 60-card casual isn't really a thing they even talk about anymore and that's a little sad. People have been playing that way since Alpha. Our format had regular internet content & articles each week. We had metas. We had staples. We had entire articles devoted to game 'casual' game theory. Yep, just like Commander. 20 years worth of it. It really wasn't a bunch of blathering drooling idiots sitting around their kitchen tables "just playing whatever crap we had lying around" like everyone seems to think.
"60 cards casual" was always a *****ty format. It was so *****ty that it doesn't even have a proper name. It was played by people because they didn't know better. As soon as they did, they moved from that failed "format". When a new casual emerged, people started to play that in bulk. Because commander was an improvement.
You may personally disagree, but the vast majority of customers spoke loudly.
Wrong. WOTC could have easily charged you $25 for the Innistrad ones, but guess what. those ones are the $50 variety, according to preorder on most stores I visited. WOTC will never charge $25 for Commander decks ever again. I could be wrong though, maybe the Kamigawa one will be the $25 kind.
Sounds like the problem is you buying from *****ty sites. I can get them for the same prices as the Kaldheim ones.
Speaking of entry points for standard, those Commander decks are entry points for standard? Most of the deck isn't even standard legal. Do you know what this means? People who learn through Commander will stick with Commander, not like they are going to play Standard anyway considering how it sucks right now.
And you think that old precons were entry points for standard? Planeswalker decks were entry point for standards? Are you that delusional?
You know what happened when someone wanted to play standard with the old precon system? They tossed away their precon and started building a new. Nowadays we just eliminated a passage.
If every single 60-card base rules precons are failures, it's because WOTC sucked at making them good. First few Duel Decks, good. The last few ones, horrible, well according to most other people anyway. This also tells me another thing, which I said in my initial rant a few months ago. WOTC has no confidence in the 60-card base rules game, which is why we get Commander and more Commander now. What's to say that WOTC does something like, "Commander is printing us money, Standard isn't. Why are we even trying with Standard anymore?"
So they failed making a product almost all the time but they should continue trying?
While commander precons are always successfull, they should stop making them?
Maybe if "60 cards casual" products failed so much, it's because they have no reason to exists in the first place.
You aren't even coherent. You talk about standard, then duel decks, then standard again. Duel decks were never standard legal. They were an entry point for nothing. They weren't useful in any 60-cards format.
I already mentioned the pioneer decks. When I initially ranted about that, and that was when we got Commander decks in the D&D set instead of Planeswalker decks, it is because those who like to play 60-card base rules precons get relegated to just 4 choices for 2021.
Be happy about that instead of ranting. 4 decks is still more than what you deserved.
WOTC cares about money now. They don't care about the game. Magic is dying. Yup, I said it. Magic is dying, well at least the ruleset in which the game is founded upon is dying, at least on Paper. WOTC can just half-ass their Standard sets, because they know Commander will print them money. If 60-card base rules wasn't dying, then WOTC would be confident in printing more 60-card base rules precons.
Ahahahahah, how can you be so short-sighted? Stop thinking that everything in the world revolves around you. They stopped printing products that you personally like. They welcomed and are entertaining tons of new players with commander. Mtg is nowhere near close to dying and when it will start to decline, it won't be because of commander.
I wasn't talking about what stores are charging. I am talking about every single Commander deck here on out will cost as much as the Strixhaven ones. The only $25 precons are going to be the 2 from Zendikar Rising and 2 from Kaldheim. That's it. Unless WOTC proves me otherwise with Kamigawa or any future set, that is how it is going to be.
The old precons are bad entry points to standard,and you think Commander is better? Don't make me laugh.
It's people like you is why I went from being indifferent to Commander to outright hating it. Commander this, Commander that. You think 4 60-card base rules precons is more than enough? I bet you haven't been in a situation where you are the minority, and you got nothing, while the majority got everything. I am not asking to have the 60-card base rules precons, which can be casual or competitive, to outnumber the Commander Decks. All I ask for is to consistently, every year, to have 10 of them, spread out throught the year, rather than having just the one release. I don't care if there are 100 Commander decks released in one year so long as I get 10 60-card base rules precons. 2021 is OK. What about 2022, 2023?
Everything in the world revolving around me? How is asking for something aimed at casual 60-card players as something that revolves around me? I already got over that the Planeswalker Decks are gone. I just want some sort of precon aimed at 60-card casual players. Is that so hard to ask? It doesn't have to be Standard legal, although it would be great if it was.
Specifying that you were referring to $50 CAD earlier in your post would have helped.
Pioneer decks failing in Canada is not going to sink sales. I'd venture that Canada probably does 1/10 or less sales of that of the USA. Keep your eyes open, shop around and you can probably buy them on ebay for far less than 50 CAD.
BTW I will be buying at least two of these decks, I like the product. Maybe you can find someone here in the states to buy and ship them to you at a reasonable cost. Either that or get your government to stop being so restrictive and causing these "shortages" and trade imbalances. Good luck and hope you can find them at a reasonable price.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Specifying that you were referring to $50 CAD earlier in your post would have helped.
Pioneer decks failing in Canada is not going to sink sales. I'd venture that Canada probably does 1/10 or less sales of that of the USA. Keep your eyes open, shop around and you can probably buy them on ebay for far less than 50 CAD.
BTW I will be buying at least two of these decks, I like the product. Maybe you can find someone here in the states to buy and ship them to you at a reasonable cost. Either that or get your government to stop being so restrictive and causing these "shortages" and trade imbalances. Good luck and hope you can find them at a reasonable price.
I just hope that the Pioneer Challenger decks are here to stay, and released every October, 6 months away from the April released Standard Challenger Decks. The issue with this is that we did experience the Modern Event Deck which only lasted one year.
Is Pioneer a popular enough format to warrant the Pioneer Challenger Decks to be an annual product? It didn't work for the Brawl Decks and the Modern Event Deck. If Pioneer Challenger Decks are not an annual thing, at least release 4 decks in October that focuses on 60-card base rules gameplay. Something like casual decks tied to old sets, maybe Challenger Decks, although not legal for current Standard, but for an older Standard, built for casual players.
Do people buy older Challenger Decks, ones from last year and 2 years prior, not for Standard but for Casual? Maybe the Pioneer Challenger Decks, at the right price, can fill that niche. The older Challenger decks essentially will have become Pioneer Challenger Decks.
what exactly stops you from playing the commander decks as "base rules" decks?
Unless you change the deck in some form, there will always be cards that references a Commander, the Command Zone, Color Identity, and multiplayer over 1 v 1.
Pioneer today is basically what Modern was in 2012. Both have 9 years worth of sets. Modern Event Deck came out in 2014, and that would be sort of equivalent to when we would get Pioneer Challenger Decks in 2023. Both draw from the same amount of sets at release.
Why did the Modern Event Deck fail that one time, and what makes us certain that Pioneer Challenger decks won't meet the same fate?
Pioneer is the Fetch of MtG, stop trying to make it happen, just bring Historic to paper.
I think a 60 card Historic deck with Arena code could sell better then most deck precons.
Even better, a Historic Brawl Deck which can double as a Commander Decks with Arena code.
Anyways back to the topic of the Showcase, does anyone think the Adventure mechanic and Sagas could be in Commander Legends: Battle For Baldur's Gate?
well those stupid idiots opened Pandora’s box and made it impossible to make on paper due to mechanics from jumpstart horizons which is “perpetually”, “Conjure”, “seek” and the -2 on davriel
what exactly stops you from playing the commander decks as "base rules" decks?
Unless you change the deck in some form, there will always be cards that references a Commander, the Command Zone, Color Identity, and multiplayer over 1 v 1.
Yes most of the time its less than 5 cards per deck which can be removed or ignored whats the problem with doing that?
Pioneer is the Fetch of MtG, stop trying to make it happen, just bring Historic to paper.
I think a 60 card Historic deck with Arena code could sell better then most deck precons.
Even better, a Historic Brawl Deck which can double as a Commander Decks with Arena code.
Anyways back to the topic of the Showcase, does anyone think the Adventure mechanic and Sagas could be in Commander Legends: Battle For Baldur's Gate?
There is going to be a time when we will have something like a Dominaria United onward format. Because 9 years separates 8th edition and Return to Ravnica, and another 9 years separates Return to Ravnica to Dominaria, that is we bring back extended, with the exception that instead of rotating out 4 sets per year, they rotate out 12 sets every 3 years.
I was thinking about having your 4 Standard Challenger decks, and for the 3 sets that contain 2 Commander Decks as opposed to 5 for the last remaining set, those 3 sets would also contain your 60-card decks with Arena codes. I guess one of the arguments against having Commander as the set associated precon is that there is no link between the Commander product and MTG Arena. It isn't like you could have both Commander and a 60-card precon that ties in with MTG Arena.
I would like to see Core Sets come back. Not as a "for new players" set, but as a set that brings reprints into Standard. Your 5 Commander Decks and the 4 Challenger Decks would be released alongside every core set, and that would be the spring set. The core set does have a story. The story would not be tied to one plane, but tied to the 5 characters that would be the Commanders in the commander decks. The 5 characters are totally unrelated, and could be from different planes. The flavor of the new cards would be designed around those characters. All other 3 sets will be the expansion sets. Those sets have 2 Commander decks and 2 60-card precons tied to MTG arena. The Commander precons would focus on evergreen themes, like things that are not necessarily tied to the set, like tribal, or evergreen mechanics like flying, tokens, spells etc. The 60-card arena tied precons would focus on set specific mechanics that we would never see outside the set. I decided on the Core Set because I didn't want a set to have your main Commander release, with the 5 decks but no 60-card variant, and having to miss out on what the new mechanics of that set would be. Core sets tend to have no new mechanics.
Specifying that you were referring to $50 CAD earlier in your post would have helped.
Pioneer decks failing in Canada is not going to sink sales. I'd venture that Canada probably does 1/10 or less sales of that of the USA. Keep your eyes open, shop around and you can probably buy them on ebay for far less than 50 CAD.
BTW I will be buying at least two of these decks, I like the product. Maybe you can find someone here in the states to buy and ship them to you at a reasonable cost. Either that or get your government to stop being so restrictive and causing these "shortages" and trade imbalances. Good luck and hope you can find them at a reasonable price.
I just hope that the Pioneer Challenger decks are here to stay, and released every October, 6 months away from the April released Standard Challenger Decks. The issue with this is that we did experience the Modern Event Deck which only lasted one year.
Is Pioneer a popular enough format to warrant the Pioneer Challenger Decks to be an annual product? It didn't work for the Brawl Decks and the Modern Event Deck. If Pioneer Challenger Decks are not an annual thing, at least release 4 decks in October that focuses on 60-card base rules gameplay. Something like casual decks tied to old sets, maybe Challenger Decks, although not legal for current Standard, but for an older Standard, built for casual players.
Do people buy older Challenger Decks, ones from last year and 2 years prior, not for Standard but for Casual? Maybe the Pioneer Challenger Decks, at the right price, can fill that niche. The older Challenger decks essentially will have become Pioneer Challenger Decks.
Pioneer can and will be popular enough if WotC decides to keep supporting it with a yearly Challenger deck series or a Pioneer Masters set every other year and subsequent in person Pioneer events. The last 18 months have thrown a monkey wrench into in person play. It will come back eventually but that depends on a lot of factors out of the buyers/players control that I am not going to go into here.
Modern Event Deck wasn't really a failure either. It wasn't a home run but it wasn't a strikeout. I'd say a solid line drive single. It should have been followed up with another one or two decks every year but really that's where the Modern Masters sets took the reins and was driving decisions at WotC I believe.
Brawl was ill fated from the get go. Poorly conceived, poorly executed and basically dreamed up and then subsequently dumped. It was the answer to the question no one was asking.
I would like to see Core Sets come back.
They will come back at some point again. WotC has gone down that well once and will pull it back out again down the road. I'm guessing Summer of 2023 as Core Set 2023 or Core Set 30th anniversary edition.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The old precons are bad entry points to standard,and you think Commander is better? Don't make me laugh.
Damn you can't even debate. Your narrative that old precons were a nice entry points for standard gets challenged and what you do? You strawman some weird opinion on me instead of defending your position. Because you can't defend that. It's a *****ty opinion.
Commander decks are no entry point for standard, but at least are an entry point for commander.
Old precons were entry point for just wasting money.
It's people like you is why I went from being indifferent to Commander to outright hating it. Commander this, Commander that. You think 4 60-card base rules precons is more than enough? I bet you haven't been in a situation where you are the minority, and you got nothing, while the majority got everything.
Ahahahah, tried to be a commander player before 2011? That's how it went.
Commander players got what they deserved not by salty crying on the internet but by buying products and making communities.
All I ask for is to consistently, every year, to have 10 of them, spread out throught the year, rather than having just the one release. I don't care if there are 100 Commander decks released in one year so long as I get 10 60-card base rules precons. 2021 is OK. What about 2022, 2023?
Have you tried writing a letter to santa?
You don't even understanding how selling products work. It's not a matter of how many commander precons VS how many 60-cards precons. It's not a matter of doing 10 60-cards precons and then printing 100,200, 300 commander precons because we need to keep commander players happy. It's a matter that they won't make those 10 *****ty precons no matter what because they know they won't sell. Printing more commander precons still won't help selling this *****. Printing less commander precons still won't help selling this *****. Get a reality check.
Everything in the world revolving around me? How is asking for something aimed at casual 60-card players as something that revolves around me? I already got over that the Planeswalker Decks are gone. I just want some sort of precon aimed at 60-card casual players. Is that so hard to ask? It doesn't have to be Standard legal, although it would be great if it was.
Yep, it's asking too much. Wotc won't make a product knowing that you will be the only one buying. Deal with it.
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
“Why couldn't they just create some $15 60-card base rules precons that are upgradable? Why are they so incompetent in making such a product?”
“It's as if WOTC is so incompetent at making $15 60-card base rules precons that they gave up.”
The answer is simple: because Wizards understands that the secondary market exists and no product can be competitive at the $15 price tag. $30-$40 precon decks seem to be the sweet spot. They can put in ~$50-$60 worth of value, include 1-of’s, maybe 2-of’s of the pricey cards, and while you may not have a tournament winner, at least you won’t die on turn 3 while having a miserable experience. A $15 deck would need so many upgrades there wouldn’t be anything left of the $15 deck by the time you shuffle up, therefore there is no market for such a product.
Wizards isn’t incompetent for not making $15 decks, but you likely are for thinking they can and should.
It's hopeless. It will just loop all over the same exactly rant and numbers and ignoring all your objections, as always. It's a total waste of time discussing with him
To follow up on this I will have to change my stance. These are going to fail and fail hard.
WM is selling these at $55 USD a pop. Epic fail. Wish I would have preordered months ago at those super low prices. And unless I can find them for $45 or less I will pass.
When a new player sees this at $55 in a small box and "just" 75 cards sitting right next to a Commander box much larger, 100 cards plus tokens for just $42 dollars and is played everywhere, which one are they going to choose 9 out of 10 times?
Prices should have been just like the Standard Challenger decks. GREED GREED GREED WotC and/or WM!!!
UPDATE: About 42 USD each on Amazon currently. I ordered 2 before the prices go up. They should still be around 30 USD each.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
To follow up on this I will have to change my stance. These are going to fail and fail hard.
WM is selling these at $55 USD a pop. Epic fail. Wish I would have preordered months ago at those super low prices. And unless I can find them for $45 or less I will pass.
When a new player sees this at $55 in a small box and "just" 75 cards sitting right next to a Commander box much larger, 100 cards plus tokens for just $42 dollars and is played everywhere, which one are they going to choose 9 out of 10 times?
Prices should have been just like the Standard Challenger decks. GREED GREED GREED WotC and/or WM!!!
UPDATE: About 42 USD each on Amazon currently. I ordered 2 before the prices go up. They should still be around 30 USD each.
WOTC's pricing rules:
Standard legal product? Normal price.
Not Tournament Legal? Normal Price.
Tournament Legal, but not Standard legal? Double price.
It's a shame that if this fails, because of the high price, WOTC would rather discontinue the product than sell the 2nd batch at a lower price.
When the Standard rotates, the Standard Challenger Decks end up being legal in Pioneer. The Pioneer Challenger Decks better be double the power over the Standard Challenger Decks.
How can you say a particular product will fail when you haven't even seen what will be in it yet?
Commander is the warhorse of MTG now. Gone are the days of shat precons (with the exception of maybe two or three [Prophecy's Avatar of Woe, and Betrayers' Umezawa's Jitte] decent reprint options). Unless something else comes along to overtake it, Commander ain't going no where. Magic is only dying in the way that you have envisioned it since you began playing. It constantly morphs and survives. That's what makes it so resilient.
That said, someone can dislike a particular aspect of the game but still remain engaged in different means. This whole "If you don;t like it then leave" mentality is tiresome and old and doesn't contribute to the entire picture. People can be picky with certain things. It just means they will be less likely to participate in that.
Anyway, I'm tired and horny. Off to scoop peanut butter right from the jar.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
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"60 cards casual" was always a *****ty format. It was so *****ty that it doesn't even have a proper name. It was played by people because they didn't know better. As soon as they did, they moved from that failed "format". When a new casual emerged, people started to play that in bulk. Because commander was an improvement.
You may personally disagree, but the vast majority of customers spoke loudly.
Sounds like the problem is you buying from *****ty sites. I can get them for the same prices as the Kaldheim ones.
And you think that old precons were entry points for standard? Planeswalker decks were entry point for standards? Are you that delusional?
You know what happened when someone wanted to play standard with the old precon system? They tossed away their precon and started building a new. Nowadays we just eliminated a passage.
So they failed making a product almost all the time but they should continue trying?
While commander precons are always successfull, they should stop making them?
Maybe if "60 cards casual" products failed so much, it's because they have no reason to exists in the first place.
You aren't even coherent. You talk about standard, then duel decks, then standard again. Duel decks were never standard legal. They were an entry point for nothing. They weren't useful in any 60-cards format.
Be happy about that instead of ranting. 4 decks is still more than what you deserved.
Ahahahahah, how can you be so short-sighted? Stop thinking that everything in the world revolves around you. They stopped printing products that you personally like. They welcomed and are entertaining tons of new players with commander. Mtg is nowhere near close to dying and when it will start to decline, it won't be because of commander.
Most, if not all stores in Canada, the Canada where it is cheaper to buy from a LGS than a Walmart and, uh Walmart (Canadians don't have a Target, but they still have a Toys R Us), and considering anybody not in the US can't order from a US site, or is that not a thing anymore? I remember that I can't order some old Intro Packs I didn't own because of this stupid policy that to help Brick and Mortar stores in your local country, you can't order sealed product online from a different country. I understand if it was new product, but old product that my local Brick and Mortar stores don't carry anyway?
All I really ask for is for WOTC to not give Commander way too much attention, much so, that 60-card base rules becomes obsolete, and that I really hope the Pioneer Challenger Decks are here to stay. It's always easy to give the minority of players who want to play the game a certain way nothing, when you can make everything for the majority when that is where the money comes from.
WOTC never gave Modern Event Decks a chance. Ok, a $75 precon was a stupid idea. They never gave Brawl Decks a chance. I don't think Pioneer Challenger Decks will work out for the same reason the Modern Event Deck never worked out. Unless the decks are super good, charging a lot for it is always a bad idea. Why couldn't they just create some $15 60-card base rules precons that are upgradable? Why are they so incompetent in making such a product?
I really hope Pioneer Event Decks are an annual thing for a long time, and even if it isn't, at least some form of set of 4 precon decks focused on some sort of 60-card base rules format is there to replace it, so long as we get 10 total 60-card base rules precons per year.
They could either go 4 Challenger Decks, 1 Arena Starter Kit with 2 Decks, and 4 more 60-card base rules decks.
They could go 5 Challenger Decks, and 5 more 60-card base rules decks, either they could be the Pioneer Challenger Decks, or decks aimed at new players.
They could do 4 Challenger decks and 2 Arena Starter Kit style decks, but released along 3 of the 4 sets, the 3 sets that don't have the main Commander release.
All of which total 10 60-card base rules precons.
My initial rant was about how WOTC said that there at least was something for those who want to learn using the 60-card base rules method. Then 2021 happened and that method just disappeared. It's as if they think that those who want to learn using the 60-card base rules method don't exist, or that playgroups who don't play Commander don't exist. That is what ticks me off. "People want to play what their friends play, and that is Commander". So what if a new player's friends don't play Commander, or what if that new player only have one friend, and because it's only 1 friend, we play 1 vs 1 formats? Ok, there is the Arena Starter Kit, but having only 2 decks for the entire year will only last them so long, and not only that, the variety is so limited. I kind of view the loss of Planeswalker Decks in 2021 Core set in favor of Commander Decks in the D&D set as sort of a betrayal. Those who want to play quick casual games of 60-card base rules, where it doesn't matter whether we win or lose, now get nothing. It's WOTC saying that players like us don't exist.
I'd say do 4 Challenger Decks, and 3 of the 4 sets will have 2 Commander decks, and 2 casual 60-card base rules precons, while the last set would be the main Commander release with 5 Commander Decks. That is the best way to release precons, and keep it that way.
It's as if WOTC is so incompetent at making $15 60-card base rules precons that they gave up.
I wasn't talking about what stores are charging. I am talking about every single Commander deck here on out will cost as much as the Strixhaven ones. The only $25 precons are going to be the 2 from Zendikar Rising and 2 from Kaldheim. That's it. Unless WOTC proves me otherwise with Kamigawa or any future set, that is how it is going to be.
The old precons are bad entry points to standard,and you think Commander is better? Don't make me laugh.
It's people like you is why I went from being indifferent to Commander to outright hating it. Commander this, Commander that. You think 4 60-card base rules precons is more than enough? I bet you haven't been in a situation where you are the minority, and you got nothing, while the majority got everything. I am not asking to have the 60-card base rules precons, which can be casual or competitive, to outnumber the Commander Decks. All I ask for is to consistently, every year, to have 10 of them, spread out throught the year, rather than having just the one release. I don't care if there are 100 Commander decks released in one year so long as I get 10 60-card base rules precons. 2021 is OK. What about 2022, 2023?
Everything in the world revolving around me? How is asking for something aimed at casual 60-card players as something that revolves around me? I already got over that the Planeswalker Decks are gone. I just want some sort of precon aimed at 60-card casual players. Is that so hard to ask? It doesn't have to be Standard legal, although it would be great if it was.
Pioneer decks failing in Canada is not going to sink sales. I'd venture that Canada probably does 1/10 or less sales of that of the USA. Keep your eyes open, shop around and you can probably buy them on ebay for far less than 50 CAD.
BTW I will be buying at least two of these decks, I like the product. Maybe you can find someone here in the states to buy and ship them to you at a reasonable cost. Either that or get your government to stop being so restrictive and causing these "shortages" and trade imbalances. Good luck and hope you can find them at a reasonable price.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I just hope that the Pioneer Challenger decks are here to stay, and released every October, 6 months away from the April released Standard Challenger Decks. The issue with this is that we did experience the Modern Event Deck which only lasted one year.
Is Pioneer a popular enough format to warrant the Pioneer Challenger Decks to be an annual product? It didn't work for the Brawl Decks and the Modern Event Deck. If Pioneer Challenger Decks are not an annual thing, at least release 4 decks in October that focuses on 60-card base rules gameplay. Something like casual decks tied to old sets, maybe Challenger Decks, although not legal for current Standard, but for an older Standard, built for casual players.
Do people buy older Challenger Decks, ones from last year and 2 years prior, not for Standard but for Casual? Maybe the Pioneer Challenger Decks, at the right price, can fill that niche. The older Challenger decks essentially will have become Pioneer Challenger Decks.
Unless you change the deck in some form, there will always be cards that references a Commander, the Command Zone, Color Identity, and multiplayer over 1 v 1.
Pioneer today is basically what Modern was in 2012. Both have 9 years worth of sets. Modern Event Deck came out in 2014, and that would be sort of equivalent to when we would get Pioneer Challenger Decks in 2023. Both draw from the same amount of sets at release.
Why did the Modern Event Deck fail that one time, and what makes us certain that Pioneer Challenger decks won't meet the same fate?
I think a 60 card Historic deck with Arena code could sell better then most deck precons.
Even better, a Historic Brawl Deck which can double as a Commander Decks with Arena code.
Anyways back to the topic of the Showcase, does anyone think the Adventure mechanic and Sagas could be in Commander Legends: Battle For Baldur's Gate?
well those stupid idiots opened Pandora’s box and made it impossible to make on paper due to mechanics from jumpstart horizons which is “perpetually”, “Conjure”, “seek” and the -2 on davriel
Yes most of the time its less than 5 cards per deck which can be removed or ignored whats the problem with doing that?
There is going to be a time when we will have something like a Dominaria United onward format. Because 9 years separates 8th edition and Return to Ravnica, and another 9 years separates Return to Ravnica to Dominaria, that is we bring back extended, with the exception that instead of rotating out 4 sets per year, they rotate out 12 sets every 3 years.
I was thinking about having your 4 Standard Challenger decks, and for the 3 sets that contain 2 Commander Decks as opposed to 5 for the last remaining set, those 3 sets would also contain your 60-card decks with Arena codes. I guess one of the arguments against having Commander as the set associated precon is that there is no link between the Commander product and MTG Arena. It isn't like you could have both Commander and a 60-card precon that ties in with MTG Arena.
I would like to see Core Sets come back. Not as a "for new players" set, but as a set that brings reprints into Standard. Your 5 Commander Decks and the 4 Challenger Decks would be released alongside every core set, and that would be the spring set. The core set does have a story. The story would not be tied to one plane, but tied to the 5 characters that would be the Commanders in the commander decks. The 5 characters are totally unrelated, and could be from different planes. The flavor of the new cards would be designed around those characters. All other 3 sets will be the expansion sets. Those sets have 2 Commander decks and 2 60-card precons tied to MTG arena. The Commander precons would focus on evergreen themes, like things that are not necessarily tied to the set, like tribal, or evergreen mechanics like flying, tokens, spells etc. The 60-card arena tied precons would focus on set specific mechanics that we would never see outside the set. I decided on the Core Set because I didn't want a set to have your main Commander release, with the 5 decks but no 60-card variant, and having to miss out on what the new mechanics of that set would be. Core sets tend to have no new mechanics.
Pioneer can and will be popular enough if WotC decides to keep supporting it with a yearly Challenger deck series or a Pioneer Masters set every other year and subsequent in person Pioneer events. The last 18 months have thrown a monkey wrench into in person play. It will come back eventually but that depends on a lot of factors out of the buyers/players control that I am not going to go into here.
Modern Event Deck wasn't really a failure either. It wasn't a home run but it wasn't a strikeout. I'd say a solid line drive single. It should have been followed up with another one or two decks every year but really that's where the Modern Masters sets took the reins and was driving decisions at WotC I believe.
Brawl was ill fated from the get go. Poorly conceived, poorly executed and basically dreamed up and then subsequently dumped. It was the answer to the question no one was asking.
They will come back at some point again. WotC has gone down that well once and will pull it back out again down the road. I'm guessing Summer of 2023 as Core Set 2023 or Core Set 30th anniversary edition.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Damn you can't even debate. Your narrative that old precons were a nice entry points for standard gets challenged and what you do? You strawman some weird opinion on me instead of defending your position. Because you can't defend that. It's a *****ty opinion.
Commander decks are no entry point for standard, but at least are an entry point for commander.
Old precons were entry point for just wasting money.
Ahahahah, tried to be a commander player before 2011? That's how it went.
Commander players got what they deserved not by salty crying on the internet but by buying products and making communities.
Have you tried writing a letter to santa?
You don't even understanding how selling products work. It's not a matter of how many commander precons VS how many 60-cards precons. It's not a matter of doing 10 60-cards precons and then printing 100,200, 300 commander precons because we need to keep commander players happy. It's a matter that they won't make those 10 *****ty precons no matter what because they know they won't sell. Printing more commander precons still won't help selling this *****. Printing less commander precons still won't help selling this *****. Get a reality check.
Yep, it's asking too much. Wotc won't make a product knowing that you will be the only one buying. Deal with it.
“It's as if WOTC is so incompetent at making $15 60-card base rules precons that they gave up.”
The answer is simple: because Wizards understands that the secondary market exists and no product can be competitive at the $15 price tag. $30-$40 precon decks seem to be the sweet spot. They can put in ~$50-$60 worth of value, include 1-of’s, maybe 2-of’s of the pricey cards, and while you may not have a tournament winner, at least you won’t die on turn 3 while having a miserable experience. A $15 deck would need so many upgrades there wouldn’t be anything left of the $15 deck by the time you shuffle up, therefore there is no market for such a product.
Wizards isn’t incompetent for not making $15 decks, but you likely are for thinking they can and should.
It's hopeless. It will just loop all over the same exactly rant and numbers and ignoring all your objections, as always. It's a total waste of time discussing with him
WM is selling these at $55 USD a pop. Epic fail. Wish I would have preordered months ago at those super low prices. And unless I can find them for $45 or less I will pass.
When a new player sees this at $55 in a small box and "just" 75 cards sitting right next to a Commander box much larger, 100 cards plus tokens for just $42 dollars and is played everywhere, which one are they going to choose 9 out of 10 times?
Prices should have been just like the Standard Challenger decks. GREED GREED GREED WotC and/or WM!!!
UPDATE: About 42 USD each on Amazon currently. I ordered 2 before the prices go up. They should still be around 30 USD each.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
WOTC's pricing rules:
Standard legal product? Normal price.
Not Tournament Legal? Normal Price.
Tournament Legal, but not Standard legal? Double price.
It's a shame that if this fails, because of the high price, WOTC would rather discontinue the product than sell the 2nd batch at a lower price.
When the Standard rotates, the Standard Challenger Decks end up being legal in Pioneer. The Pioneer Challenger Decks better be double the power over the Standard Challenger Decks.
Commander is the warhorse of MTG now. Gone are the days of shat precons (with the exception of maybe two or three [Prophecy's Avatar of Woe, and Betrayers' Umezawa's Jitte] decent reprint options). Unless something else comes along to overtake it, Commander ain't going no where. Magic is only dying in the way that you have envisioned it since you began playing. It constantly morphs and survives. That's what makes it so resilient.
That said, someone can dislike a particular aspect of the game but still remain engaged in different means. This whole "If you don;t like it then leave" mentality is tiresome and old and doesn't contribute to the entire picture. People can be picky with certain things. It just means they will be less likely to participate in that.
Anyway, I'm tired and horny. Off to scoop peanut butter right from the jar.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.