Not going to cry like an infant when someone interacts with my card draw or plays a combo that doesn't even end the game, especially when a single piece of removal or a counterspell stops it neatly.
Damn, so the RC doesn't want to turn their format into another "have a removal/counter by turn 4 or lose" flop format? Geez i wonder why. And i wonder why commander is more successfull than all the other formats.
Go play modern and leave us alone.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
It might've been more acceptable if it's white, but blue is supposedly the SLOWEST color, it shouldn't have a hand-denial and a ramp in one card, with flash attached.
But I thought rule committee worked with WotC in creating Commander Legends, so how did this happen?
For all those saying it should have been white - that would only be true if you got treasure when they drew cards, but the fact that it's a replacement effect that eliminates the draw altogether is not only what got it banned, but also what makes it less white. Treasure and denial together is too much. One or the other would probably have been fine.
If Hullbreacher was a white card, would it have gotten the ban? Would Commanders decks with wheels (blue and red mostly) use white just to access a white Hullbreacher?
Smothering Tithe is the white Hullbreacher and it's also obnoxious and unfun so I wouldn't say that Hullbreacher should be a white card rather than a not card
For all those saying it should have been white - that would only be true if you got treasure when they drew cards, but the fact that it's a replacement effect that eliminates the draw altogether is not only what got it banned, but also what makes it less white. Treasure and denial together is too much. One or the other would probably have been fine.
Alms Collector exists, but I haven't heard it universally hated.
Alms Collector exists, but I haven't heard it universally hated.
True. But I'd guess because it isn't played as much or as un-fun. It isn't as hard a lock because they still get a card. It isn't in the color of wheels. It doesn't ramp its controller by 21 treasures to cast their full grip after a wheel. It's less likely to be backed up with counterspells.
Even as a major blue fan I felt this card was excessive. It's not comparable at all to other cards mentioned. This was in a league of its own. There needs to be a banlist to check such cards, not just house rules. I'd like to see Rift banned next.
It's too powerful for white as well, but a toned down version of it for white could be fine.
Honestly I’d like to see a Hullbreacher variant card that simply says “If a spell or an ability an opponent controls would make them draw a card…” and basically have the effect in commander, but remove the ability that lets Hullbreacher’s controller cast a wheel and lock everyone out.
But these bannings are f***ing out of control. Cards like these should find their way out of the meta via group discussions - not the whim of a rules committee. The problem is that it is easier to squeeze cards out of play groups by simple discussion without impacting other groups where LGS postings of a default banned list often override the notion of social contracts. Mass land destruction is kind of a testament to that, as is often times Stax.
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No kidding! In the past 5 years they've banned 0-2 cards every year, for a huge total of SEVEN CARDS! That is outrageous! Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this?!
No kidding! In the past 5 years they've banned 0-2 cards every year, for a huge total of SEVEN CARDS! That is outrageous! Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this?!
I mean, you can be cheeky all you want - but the rules committee clearly doesn't actually believe in any of the ***** they say. The justifications for leaving the other predatory cards similar to Hullbreacher are absolutely comical.
The reason the bans are out of control is because the format is inherently self regulating up to the point in which a governing body does not believe it to be so. Which is ironic considering how much weight they put on the idea of 'social games' and 'social groups'.
Anyways, as I said, the format is better off without Hullbreacher.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
No kidding! In the past 5 years they've banned 0-2 cards every year, for a huge total of SEVEN CARDS! That is outrageous! Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this?!
I mean, you can be cheeky all you want - but the rules committee clearly doesn't actually believe in any of the ***** they say. The justifications for leaving the other predatory cards similar to Hullbreacher are absolutely comical.
The reason the bans are out of control is because the format is inherently self regulating up to the point in which a governing body does not believe it to be so. Which is ironic considering how much weight they put on the idea of 'social games' and 'social groups'.
Anyways, as I said, the format is better off without Hullbreacher.
okay but... no?
narset and notion thief aren't in the same league as breacher. not even close. they do the same thing, to a degree. the creation of the treasures is such a huge part of the card. you can't just pick and choose parts of them to fit your argument.
Make a white version that only triggers off of opponents spells and effects causing them to draw more than one card, and limit the number of treasures to one or two. Bam, you have a reasonable card.
I am gonna tell you right now, that objective framing public statements like what the RC did in this ban, are hogwash. I know this because I have been involved professionally with a ton of product dev/design statements and changelogs.
But hey, you can take this as a simp and be okay with it - and that is fine. It is why these statements are made and why things are explained as they are... people eat it up and are okay with a lay statement, but that doesn't mean there is complete conviction or logic behind it.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
No kidding! In the past 5 years they've banned 0-2 cards every year, for a huge total of SEVEN CARDS! That is outrageous! Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this?!
I mean, you can be cheeky all you want - but the rules committee clearly doesn't actually believe in any of the ***** they say. The justifications for leaving the other predatory cards similar to Hullbreacher are absolutely comical.
I'm confused, are the bannings out of control or are you mad that they haven't banned more cards?
If wotc wants to create the "stop extra draws" cards, can they please just print them with the text "If a spell or ability controlled by an opponent would cause that player to draw a card other than the first card they draw in each of their draw steps, instead"
That makes it so much less abusive and actually keeps it as an answer which is what these cards are in theory supposed to be. (And make it white.)
Because for some unknown reason this site doesn't have a NEWS section. And the Rumor Mill has become the defacto NEWS section. It would probably take an admin or mod about 5 seconds to create one. My guess is they don't want the job of moving news threads to a rumor thread and vice versa. I'd give them a PM. But I've veered off topic. Back to this Hullbreacher "rumor".
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Because for some unknown reason this site doesn't have a NEWS section. And the Rumor Mill has become the defacto NEWS section. It would probably take an admin or mod about 5 seconds to create one. My guess is they don't want the job of moving news threads to a rumor thread and vice versa. I'd give them a PM. But I've veered off topic. Back to this Hullbreacher "rumor".
I would like to second the change from "Rumor mill" to "NEWS Mill" and the "Unfounded rumors" section becomes the "Rumor mill".
That being said Hullbreacher can eat a ban for all I care... so does Narset. And if social contract would solve everything we would need no banlist at all.
Obilterate is a good social contract card. Many people do not like it, but it isn't inherently broken. So you can discuss, if you group want to play with it or not.
Also I would really like to see an update to the rule 11 that gets rid of Companions and a Lutri unban.
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Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Not going to cry like an infant when someone interacts with my card draw or plays a combo that doesn't even end the game, especially when a single piece of removal or a counterspell stops it neatly.
Damn, so the RC doesn't want to turn their format into another "have a removal/counter by turn 4 or lose" flop format? Geez i wonder why. And i wonder why commander is more successfull than all the other formats.
Go play modern and leave us alone.
Commander would be such a format if it were played primarily competitively. The RC doesn't usually aim bans at CEDH stuff, Flash being a recent exception.
No kidding! In the past 5 years they've banned 0-2 cards every year, for a huge total of SEVEN CARDS! That is outrageous! Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this?!
I mean, you can be cheeky all you want
And I will be, because you're overreacting. Saying they're "******* out of control" is not even close to accurate. In fact they clearly want to keep bannings to a minimum, and have. 0-2 per year is very reasonable, and every card they've banned has been worth banning.
The other cards "close to" Hullbreacher don't let you then play all the new cards you just drew on the same turn, and it sounds like people aren't building a lot of Notion Thief-Wheel decks the way they were building Hullbreacher-Wheel decks.
from josh lee kwai an actual beta tester of commander legends said hullbreacher believe it originally said
"until end of turn if an opponent would draw a card except the first one they draw in each of their draw steps, instead you create a Treasure token. (It's an artifact with "{T}, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.")"
so rumor is it was originally a one time ETB effect that is hands down more fair but it still should never have the word "instead"
The effect is fine if the card would be sorcery speed and more impacted by removal, in addition to being overall more expensive.
Notion Thief at 2UB and as a 3/1 is specific enough that not all decks can run it with Wheel cards (as the color combinations restrict it).
Hullbreacher without flash and adding white and red cost (as white and red are the "treasure" colors). Could also just be red as a hate card.
At 2WR, this could have worked way more fair, simply because its more restrictive on decks by its colors and easier to handle as you cant just flash it in before your turn or in response to an opponent wheeling (which is one of the most frustrating plays that can happen and results in people not playing a wheel out of fear into open mana, and blue by all colors is the one that will have open mana the most, so its all awful problems combined).
----
There is no doubt they pushing the power creep pretty dreadful hard with specific cards.
Opposition Agent is on the same problem train, if it matters the entire game revolves around getting rid of these creatures, as they completely dead-lock a game for the opponents.
Being black is at least somewhat of a disadvantage, as blue is such a more profound overpowered color to begin with.
If Hullbreacher had an errata instead of a ban that removes the word "instead" in it's oracle text then it would've been on the same power level as Smothering Tithe despite the fact that Hullbreacher should've been White instead of Blue due to how it's the weakest color when it comes to card advantage. Then again the reason why Wizards of the Coast prefers to ban cards over placing errata on them similar to what we saw with Companions in Ikoria is that errata ends up creating more confusion for players trying to understand what the cards actually do. Back when I used to play Yu-Gi-Oh! there was so much errata on cards that you literally needed a CRD (Card Ruling Document) page by page to understand what the hell the cards actually did. Now we got smartphones to look up what the cards actually do but that's still no excuse though.
Can we talk about how this banning proves how much Wizards of the Coast hates printing actual good support for Merfolk or are they doing this on purpose by trolling the Professor at Tolarian Community College because they know that Merfolk is his favorite tribe? Maybe I'm missing something here and that Merfolk is a creature type that isn't as easy to design for as a tribe like Elves which are the easiest to design for next to Goblins and other popular tribes. Pirates are still relatively new as they got the whole Treasure token mechanic going for them but at the very least Dockside Extortionist is a better example of designing a Pirate with Treasures that doesn't deny players resources like what Hullbreacher does. That being said I do think Hullbreacher is good enough to see impact in Legacy and Vintage If not already unless Wheels are banned in those eternal formats.
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Way to completely miss the point
Damn, so the RC doesn't want to turn their format into another "have a removal/counter by turn 4 or lose" flop format? Geez i wonder why. And i wonder why commander is more successfull than all the other formats.
Go play modern and leave us alone.
But I thought rule committee worked with WotC in creating Commander Legends, so how did this happen?
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Smothering Tithe is not quite as obnoxious as it doesn't stop opponents from drawing extra cards. Smothering Tithe helps with mana ramping.
Alms Collector exists, but I haven't heard it universally hated.
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It's too powerful for white as well, but a toned down version of it for white could be fine.
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But these bannings are f***ing out of control. Cards like these should find their way out of the meta via group discussions - not the whim of a rules committee. The problem is that it is easier to squeeze cards out of play groups by simple discussion without impacting other groups where LGS postings of a default banned list often override the notion of social contracts. Mass land destruction is kind of a testament to that, as is often times Stax.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
No kidding! In the past 5 years they've banned 0-2 cards every year, for a huge total of SEVEN CARDS! That is outrageous! Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this?!
I mean, you can be cheeky all you want - but the rules committee clearly doesn't actually believe in any of the ***** they say. The justifications for leaving the other predatory cards similar to Hullbreacher are absolutely comical.
The reason the bans are out of control is because the format is inherently self regulating up to the point in which a governing body does not believe it to be so. Which is ironic considering how much weight they put on the idea of 'social games' and 'social groups'.
Anyways, as I said, the format is better off without Hullbreacher.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
okay but... no?
narset and notion thief aren't in the same league as breacher. not even close. they do the same thing, to a degree. the creation of the treasures is such a huge part of the card. you can't just pick and choose parts of them to fit your argument.
But hey, you can take this as a simp and be okay with it - and that is fine. It is why these statements are made and why things are explained as they are... people eat it up and are okay with a lay statement, but that doesn't mean there is complete conviction or logic behind it.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Rumor Mill is essentially just "News", why it's not called that I don't know as no actual rumors are usually allowed in this area of the forum.
I'm confused, are the bannings out of control or are you mad that they haven't banned more cards?
That makes it so much less abusive and actually keeps it as an answer which is what these cards are in theory supposed to be. (And make it white.)
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Because for some unknown reason this site doesn't have a NEWS section. And the Rumor Mill has become the defacto NEWS section. It would probably take an admin or mod about 5 seconds to create one. My guess is they don't want the job of moving news threads to a rumor thread and vice versa. I'd give them a PM. But I've veered off topic. Back to this Hullbreacher "rumor".
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I would like to second the change from "Rumor mill" to "NEWS Mill" and the "Unfounded rumors" section becomes the "Rumor mill".
That being said Hullbreacher can eat a ban for all I care... so does Narset. And if social contract would solve everything we would need no banlist at all.
Obilterate is a good social contract card. Many people do not like it, but it isn't inherently broken. So you can discuss, if you group want to play with it or not.
Also I would really like to see an update to the rule 11 that gets rid of Companions and a Lutri unban.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Commander would be such a format if it were played primarily competitively. The RC doesn't usually aim bans at CEDH stuff, Flash being a recent exception.
And I will be, because you're overreacting. Saying they're "******* out of control" is not even close to accurate. In fact they clearly want to keep bannings to a minimum, and have. 0-2 per year is very reasonable, and every card they've banned has been worth banning.
The other cards "close to" Hullbreacher don't let you then play all the new cards you just drew on the same turn, and it sounds like people aren't building a lot of Notion Thief-Wheel decks the way they were building Hullbreacher-Wheel decks.
15:00
from josh lee kwai an actual beta tester of commander legends said hullbreacher believe it originally said
"until end of turn if an opponent would draw a card except the first one they draw in each of their draw steps, instead you create a Treasure token. (It's an artifact with "{T}, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.")"
so rumor is it was originally a one time ETB effect that is hands down more fair but it still should never have the word "instead"
Notion Thief at 2UB and as a 3/1 is specific enough that not all decks can run it with Wheel cards (as the color combinations restrict it).
Hullbreacher without flash and adding white and red cost (as white and red are the "treasure" colors). Could also just be red as a hate card.
At 2WR, this could have worked way more fair, simply because its more restrictive on decks by its colors and easier to handle as you cant just flash it in before your turn or in response to an opponent wheeling (which is one of the most frustrating plays that can happen and results in people not playing a wheel out of fear into open mana, and blue by all colors is the one that will have open mana the most, so its all awful problems combined).
----
There is no doubt they pushing the power creep pretty dreadful hard with specific cards.
Opposition Agent is on the same problem train, if it matters the entire game revolves around getting rid of these creatures, as they completely dead-lock a game for the opponents.
Being black is at least somewhat of a disadvantage, as blue is such a more profound overpowered color to begin with.
----
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Can we talk about how this banning proves how much Wizards of the Coast hates printing actual good support for Merfolk or are they doing this on purpose by trolling the Professor at Tolarian Community College because they know that Merfolk is his favorite tribe? Maybe I'm missing something here and that Merfolk is a creature type that isn't as easy to design for as a tribe like Elves which are the easiest to design for next to Goblins and other popular tribes. Pirates are still relatively new as they got the whole Treasure token mechanic going for them but at the very least Dockside Extortionist is a better example of designing a Pirate with Treasures that doesn't deny players resources like what Hullbreacher does. That being said I do think Hullbreacher is good enough to see impact in Legacy and Vintage If not already unless Wheels are banned in those eternal formats.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta