Hullbreacher is banned in Commander, we have two new members in the Commander Advisory Group, and we have a small clarification on Rule 11 regarding Dungeons.
Appointments to the Commander Advisory Group (CAG): Kristen Gregory and Elizabeth Rice.
Welcoming Kristen and Ellie to the Commander Advisory Group
Kristen and Ellie are both deeply invested in Commander and possess excellent Magic minds. You may have seen them on recent episodes of the Commander Rules Committee (RC) Twitch stream and elsewhere, or checked out some of their other work, so you’ll know how much they love the format. They bring the kinds of complementary and diverse voices which will make them outstanding additions to the CAG. You can check out their full bios here.
RULES
Slight modification to Rule 11 to clarify dungeon legality.
Dungeons
Dungeons are a little wonky from a rules perspective since they’re more like emblems than other cards. Once they’re ventured into, they even live in the command zone; they then leave the zone when they’re completed. They have to be considered cards so that other rules can work, but they’re not otherwise cards in the traditional sense. They can’t go into your deck; their main function is as a specialized process marker. To that end, Rule 11 is now worded like this:
Parts of abilities which bring other traditional card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Living Wish; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.
CARDS
Hullbreacher is BANNED.
Hullbreacher
Hullbreacher has been a problem card since its release. Its ostensible defensive use against extra card draw has been dwarfed by offensively combining it with mass-draw effects to easily strip players hands while accelerating the controller. That play pattern isn’t something we want prevalent in casual play (see the Leovold ban), and we have seen a lot of evidence that it is too tempting even there, as it combines with wheels and other popular casual staples. The case against the card was overwhelming.
There remain a few similar cards that are still permitted, notably Notion Thief and Narset, Parter of Veils. The additional hoops required (an additional color pip for Notion Thief, and sorcery speed for Narset) appear to be keeping them to the appropriate level of play, though we’ll continue to keep an eye on them.
I'm against the whole things that prevent draw should be banned line of thought the rules committee seems to be going with, but hullbreacher is an easy exception given that it basically makes every wheel read "draw 7+ cards, gain enough mana to cast a good number of them, discard your opponents' hands".
I'm no fan of Hullbreacher, but I truly hate this ban. I feel like we've lost the idea of the social contract. If Armageddon and Stasis can be legal but kept at bay by the social contract and goodwill of friendship, why can't Hullbreacher plus wheel effects?
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Can't say I'm sad to see Hullbreacher banned. It was miserable every time someone dropped one, and the entire game devolved into trying to kill and/or steal the Hullbreacher. And it made games far more painful than the ones years ago that devolved around Prophet of Kruphix because the Hullbreacher/Wheel playstyle took away our resources to play the game in addition to accelerating the controller.
I'm no fan of Hullbreacher, but I truly hate this ban. I feel like we've lost the idea of the social contract. If Armageddon and Stasis can be legal but kept at bay by the social contract and goodwill of friendship, why can't Hullbreacher plus wheel effects?
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Sigh. I hate bans.
It's a Paradox Engine situation all over again. The majority of the Commander community saw value and little else.
I'm no fan of Hullbreacher, but I truly hate this ban. I feel like we've lost the idea of the social contract. If Armageddon and Stasis can be legal but kept at bay by the social contract and goodwill of friendship, why can't Hullbreacher plus wheel effects?
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Sigh. I hate bans.
Use the social contract to convince other players to let you still play hullbreacher
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Good riddance. Hullbreacher was just one of those cards that just made the entire game unfun. On top of that, it was just so efficiently costed for the effect. The fact that WoTC pushed this card through just tells me they wanted to push pack sales of this commander product and now they ban it because of how pushed it was.
Hullbreacher is simply better as winning the same turn with a storm like deck and putting it in many more (even mono blue) decks is a thing.
In the end, truly casual tables can just ignore the banned list anyway, as long as the deck is janky enough nobody cares.
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They should simply stop designing cards that "stop" the card draw, its every time the same problem with Wheel of Fortune effects (could just ban all of them, at least the efficient ones).
I'm no fan of Hullbreacher, but I truly hate this ban. I feel like we've lost the idea of the social contract. If Armageddon and Stasis can be legal but kept at bay by the social contract and goodwill of friendship, why can't Hullbreacher plus wheel effects?
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Sigh. I hate bans.
Use the social contract to convince other players to let you still play hullbreacher
Can I use the social contract to make my Hullbreacher still worth $20? I hate this line of thought, because it treats degenerate play as inevitable, when it's not.
i mean i opened a full art foil hullbreacher in a booster and it will lose value now, but i think this ban is the right choice. i even stopped playing him, because i found him to be much of a fun killer for the table (even when others kept playing him).
the only thing that disturbs me, that this is yet another card printed by wizards that gets banned not to long after its release. and that in the format it was designed for. i mean they knew about leovold. why do they do this. this feels like they do it on purpose and therefore makes it a scam in my eyes
Can I use the social contract to make my Hullbreacher still worth $20? I hate this line of thought, because it treats degenerate play as inevitable, when it's not.
Sorry but this is a disgusting line of thought. Cards plummet in price every day. Price should be no reason to decide to not ban, ever.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Im glad theres some new blood on the RC. Im also glad theyll offer a different perspective.
Hullbreacher was ***** and had to go. It stifled deck design and was creatively bankrupt. If you ran any wheels, you ran breacher. If you were in a meta where people draw cards, you run breacher.
Notion thief and narset do the same things, yes. What most people against this ban seem to forget is that breacher makes you treasure tokens. This allows you to keep going, and going, and going. Putting you miles beyond everyone else who now has no hand. Narset and notion thief dont do that.
My only complaint is with how long this took. It was a known issue from the moment it was spoiled. It was written about repeatedly. Sheldon took a lot of heat for his anti wheel sentiment when this card was the real problem
Oh, and the vast majority of the community seemed to be for banning this thing months ago
Additionally the social contract and rule zero are clown shoes. Theyre a hide behind to justify lack of action. They work fine at your kitchen table, but not at an lgs. There has to be a standard there because so many players change in and out, or go to other stores. Rule zero is out dated and has to go too given the massive popularity of edh now, and the huge array of new players.
Once again proving that the RC is wildly out of touch and shouldn't be trusted with managing the health of the format. Sad day
Hard disagree. Hullbreacher ruined casual games of Commander, especially when played with wheels, but even when not. Some other player would play extra card draw spells or a wheel, and the joker with a Hullbreacher would flash it in. Sure, it's the optimal play, but it was boring and required no skill. It made the game devolve. I don't always agree with the RC, but I stand by this ban 100%.
Honestly, where commander is right now makes me want to see the rules committee experiment with some unbannings. Specifically I’d like to see cards banned a long time ago get another shot in the current meta like primeval titan. Yes it can tutor out dark depths & thespian stage, but right now I don’t think a 20/20 flying indestructible token is as scary as it use to be considering that a large portion of the most competitive decks rely on some kind of instant win combo and simply don’t care about a token that takes 6 turns to kill 3 opponents.
Honestly, where commander is right now makes me want to see the rules committee experiment with some unbannings. Specifically I’d like to see cards banned a long time ago get another shot in the current meta like primeval titan. Yes it can tutor out dark depths & thespian stage, but right now I don’t think a 20/20 flying indestructible token is as scary as it use to be considering that a large portion of the most competitive decks rely on some kind of instant win combo and simply don’t care about a token that takes 6 turns to kill 3 opponents.
I've wanted a Narset ban since shortly after it dropped, and Hullbreacher was printed as a sidegrade to Narset. It only made Narset Wheel decks more popular. As people play online quite a bit you can't use a social pressure system in place of a banlist. If you want to keep playing banned cards in paper nothing will stop you honestly unless you're playing in a tournament. You just have to tell people ahead of time you're running Hullbreacher and wheels (which you probably should have done anyway)
My opinion; if Hullbreacher is too good, Narset is also too good.
If Hullbreacher was a white card, would it have gotten the ban? Would Commanders decks with wheels (blue and red mostly) use white just to access a white Hullbreacher?
Once again proving that the RC is wildly out of touch and shouldn't be trusted with managing the health of the format. Sad day
You got to be kidding me/trolling/joking
have you even seen a hullbreacher in action that wasn't owned by you? Or even played a game with one popping out.
Hullbreacher was the dumbest mistake they have ever made in the history of magic and way to beyond broken and hated on tables maybe a legend
1. It’s the wrong color should have been white
2. Flash should have never been put on that card
3. It could have have triggered from a ability/triggered ability to draw a card rather than spells/any draw/wheels
If Hullbreacher was a white card, would it have gotten the ban? Would Commanders decks with wheels (blue and red mostly) use white just to access a white Hullbreacher?
Smothering Tithe is the white Hullbreacher and it's also obnoxious and unfun so I wouldn't say that Hullbreacher should be a white card rather than a not card
Sorry, I play interaction in my decks, I know that's not common.
Is it obnoxious when my opponents play Hullbreacher into my Brainstorm or in combination with a wheel? Well yeah, that's the idea. Not going to cry like an infant when someone interacts with my card draw or plays a combo that doesn't even end the game, especially when a single piece of removal or a counterspell stops it neatly.
Card is good. Card was fun to play and play against. Card will be missed.
(Card should've definitely been white though, yes)
Even so, probably for the best.
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Sigh. I hate bans.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
Use the social contract to convince other players to let you still play hullbreacher
Hullbreacher is simply better as winning the same turn with a storm like deck and putting it in many more (even mono blue) decks is a thing.
In the end, truly casual tables can just ignore the banned list anyway, as long as the deck is janky enough nobody cares.
----
They should simply stop designing cards that "stop" the card draw, its every time the same problem with Wheel of Fortune effects (could just ban all of them, at least the efficient ones).
----
And two more diversity hires , amazin
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
this is the real golden rule.
Can I use the social contract to make my Hullbreacher still worth $20? I hate this line of thought, because it treats degenerate play as inevitable, when it's not.
the only thing that disturbs me, that this is yet another card printed by wizards that gets banned not to long after its release. and that in the format it was designed for. i mean they knew about leovold. why do they do this. this feels like they do it on purpose and therefore makes it a scam in my eyes
Sorry but this is a disgusting line of thought. Cards plummet in price every day. Price should be no reason to decide to not ban, ever.
Hullbreacher was ***** and had to go. It stifled deck design and was creatively bankrupt. If you ran any wheels, you ran breacher. If you were in a meta where people draw cards, you run breacher.
Notion thief and narset do the same things, yes. What most people against this ban seem to forget is that breacher makes you treasure tokens. This allows you to keep going, and going, and going. Putting you miles beyond everyone else who now has no hand. Narset and notion thief dont do that.
My only complaint is with how long this took. It was a known issue from the moment it was spoiled. It was written about repeatedly. Sheldon took a lot of heat for his anti wheel sentiment when this card was the real problem
Oh, and the vast majority of the community seemed to be for banning this thing months ago
Additionally the social contract and rule zero are clown shoes. Theyre a hide behind to justify lack of action. They work fine at your kitchen table, but not at an lgs. There has to be a standard there because so many players change in and out, or go to other stores. Rule zero is out dated and has to go too given the massive popularity of edh now, and the huge array of new players.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
My opinion; if Hullbreacher is too good, Narset is also too good.
You got to be kidding me/trolling/joking
have you even seen a hullbreacher in action that wasn't owned by you? Or even played a game with one popping out.
Hullbreacher was the dumbest mistake they have ever made in the history of magic and way to beyond broken and hated on tables maybe a legend
1. It’s the wrong color should have been white
2. Flash should have never been put on that card
3. It could have have triggered from a ability/triggered ability to draw a card rather than spells/any draw/wheels
this is one of the times they did a correct call just like with Lutri, the Spellchaser
Smothering Tithe is the white Hullbreacher and it's also obnoxious and unfun so I wouldn't say that Hullbreacher should be a white card rather than a not card
Yes wheels decks splash white for Smothering Tithe. Symmetrical versions of the effects Spirit of the Labyrinth, Uba Mask, and Chains of Mephistopheles are nowhere to be seen
Is it obnoxious when my opponents play Hullbreacher into my Brainstorm or in combination with a wheel? Well yeah, that's the idea. Not going to cry like an infant when someone interacts with my card draw or plays a combo that doesn't even end the game, especially when a single piece of removal or a counterspell stops it neatly.
Card is good. Card was fun to play and play against. Card will be missed.
(Card should've definitely been white though, yes)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||