I love all the comments like "How did they let this card get printed!!!"
People are acting like the president of wotc DIDN'T say he was fine with having to regularly ban cards out of standard.
I love all the comments like "How did they let this card get printed!!!"
People are acting like the president of wotc DIDN'T say he was fine with having to regularly ban cards out of standard.
People dont have to agree with what the president of wotc is saying.
And they sure dont have to like the direction, as is very clear to tell as people point out banning cards in standard is basically the worst case scenario for a chase card to be (as early investment in that card is punished quite sever, cutting deep into its value and so the value of the entire set if the "big" cards money is cut in pieces).
People dont have to agree with what the president of wotc is saying.
And they sure dont have to like the direction, as is very clear to tell as people point out banning cards in standard is basically the worst case scenario for a chase card to be (as early investment in that card is punished quite sever, cutting deep into its value and so the value of the entire set if the "big" cards money is cut in pieces).
But then they still shouldn't be complaining about designers "missing" the card, when it's just as likely (and considering the awkward wording involving milling the chances are very good) that the card was not missed, but rather intentionally pushed by a directive outside of the control of the people that receive the lion's share of the blame.
It's like complaining about the shoddy work of the worker at the assembly line or the engineer when the board of directors incorporated planned obsolescence in their product. Be unhappy. Complain. But also improve your aim.
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But then they still shouldn't be complaining about designers "missing" the card, when it's just as likely (and considering the awkward wording involving milling the chances are very good) that the card was not missed, but rather intentionally pushed by a directive outside of the control of the people that receive the lion's share of the blame.
It's like complaining about the shoddy work of the worker at the assembly line or the engineer when the board of directors incorporated planned obsolescence in their product. Be unhappy. Complain. But also improve your aim.
So your argument is that yes, the complaint is correct, but that the blame is possibly aimed in the wrong direction?
Based on the last 1 1/2 to 2 years we've seen a whole lot misses, a literal historic amount of them in terms of bannings. When was the last time a Standard set didn't have a banning(s) again? Zendikar Rising literally had one as the set was coming out calling back to an almost Memory Jar scenario.
I don't have the source of that "president" claiming the company is ok with printing cards that are too strong, mistakes, or whatever the wording is.
That being said, there's no need to be condescendant towards people on this forum who think otherwise.
Even then, if "Wizards" (what does this word even mean in this context ?) is okay with mistakes, it's fair to complain some cards are mistakes. I doubt dev teams are happy when they screw up and receive community backlash. Time will tell, but a card like Tibalt's Trickery may be remembered as a terrible design mistake, and I doubt Maro will talk about it like "it was okay, we stopped to care about cards that ruin formats a long time ago anyway !". Won't happen.
And again, some people take for granted the narrative some president delivered, but it may very well be a posture in order to reduce the devs incompetence in the eye of the customer. Wizards community management is very smart.
Let's not forget some of those mistakes were not caused by new designs, but just blatant "wtf" wordings, synergies or stats on cards : Hostage Taker erratum, Saheeli Rai + Felidar Guardian in the same set, Oko, Thief of Crowns and the other broken green cards in that same set, etc...
We can argue where to draw the line with power creep or Color Pie break, and agree to disagree, nonetheless it happened quite a few times where we knew what was about to happen with previewed cards, and devs were unable to notice or fix anything. Once they ban the cards or mention in an article "woops we missed it", we're not talking about Wizards being okay with mistakes, we're witnessing devs who acknowledge they screwed up.
I personnally have no issue with Wizards pushing the boundaries, it's just sad that potential powerful yet balanced cards (like Oko, for example) were mistakenly put on steroids, and it will remain as is forever.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I don't think the card is broken or the deck too strong.
the version with a ton of lands and aggressive mulligan doesn't have a hint of resilience as it's simply destroyed by a single counterspell or discard spell...
also, takes 3 turns to go off.
the other version is very inconsistent, even though stronger than the 51 lands version.
it will missfire A LOT.
also as every combo deck ever, it´s completely disrupted by counterspells or discard. ditto, it's not a insta scoop like the 51 lands version.
Standard/Historic versions look like a meme deck... they're waaaaay to inconsistent and the amount of free wins is pretty close to the amount of insta scoops because of bad luck.
the card can very well be beaten and will not take the meta by assault like what Omnath did.
all that said..... every single match is uninteresting when this deck is involved.
there's no back and forth plays, no real interaction.... either the deck goes off and runs away with the game on turn 3 or something, or it simply does nothing and gets trampled over.
there's no middle ground, thus no possibility of interesting matches involving it, if anything is reason to ban the card, I think it's this....
but we had our quota of decks like this, and most of them weren't even up for banning.
I tried the Modern Ponza-like Jund Cascade deck for some games (on Cockatrice), and while it might have been the best build of Ponza I've played in years, it still suffers from Ponza's inconsistency at dealing with combo decks (and with Tibalt's Trickery in that other Cascade combo deck, combo is on the rise in Modern). Big Tibalt can and has been dealt with multiple times after resolving in testing, but he is a brutal beating.
I thought kaldeim rules primer did say that only top part of DF cards is used for cascade type effects?
The Cascade rules I've read are that only the front face is respected for whether a card can be cast with Cascade, but either face can be cast this way.
Don't think it will be banned in Pioneer any time soon. I'm trying to get it to work and it is woefully inconsistent.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Don't think it will be banned in Pioneer any time soon. I'm trying to get it to work and it is woefully inconsistent.
yes, it's absolutely inconsistent in Standard, Historic and Pioneer.
inconsistent and uninteresting at the same time.
people will aggressively mulligan until they can do their trick on turn 2.
then, if it's not disrupted and it hits something big, it wins, else, the dude playing it scoops.
it makes for matches where no one is having fun.
this is the worst kind of deck to exist in any format.
but being stupid and uninteresting, if not super strong, is not a reason to ban anything... so.... yeah.
I thought kaldeim rules primer did say that only top part of DF cards is used for cascade type effects?
The Cascade rules I've read are that only the front face is respected for whether a card can be cast with Cascade, but either face can be cast this way.
I don't understand. If only the top side is searched for then how can you possibly cast the other side?
Edit: I have this text from release to support you are wrong "If it does, it enters the battlefield with its front face up. For example, if an effect allows "
Edit two: "an effect allows you to play a land or cast a spell from among a group of cards, you may play or cast a modal double-faced card with any face that fits the criteria of that effect. " So unless you play a cascade spell of 8 then tibalt side does not fit the cascade criteria.
I thought kaldeim rules primer did say that only top part of DF cards is used for cascade type effects?
The Cascade rules I've read are that only the front face is respected for whether a card can be cast with Cascade, but either face can be cast this way.
I don't understand. If only the top side is searched for then how can you possibly cast the other side?
Edit: I have this text from release to support you are wrong "If it does, it enters the battlefield with its front face up. For example, if an effect allows "
Edit two: "an effect allows you to play a land or cast a spell from among a group of cards, you may play or cast a modal double-faced card with any face that fits the criteria of that effect. " So unless you play a cascade spell of 8 then tibalt side does not fit the cascade criteria.
your interpretation isn't really the correct one....
cascade goes through the deck searching for something below it's cost.
it will see only the Valki side and then say "well, you can play this card"
then the card says....
"when playing the card, you may choose which side to cast"
with the current rules, playing Tibalt is perfectly legal.
and I do think it's very, very weird that this rule has even seen the light of day, specially because they fixed the very same loophole for split cards a long time ago....
But it says right in the text that either side you use has to fit the criteria. So confused.
To the judges I go.
Edit: rulings guys clarified it, I am wrong. Somehow cascade ignores above text. They need to fix this asap
Don't think it will be banned in Pioneer any time soon. I'm trying to get it to work and it is woefully inconsistent.
yes, it's absolutely inconsistent in Standard, Historic and Pioneer.
inconsistent and uninteresting at the same time.
people will aggressively mulligan until they can do their trick on turn 2.
then, if it's not disrupted and it hits something big, it wins, else, the dude playing it scoops.
it makes for matches where no one is having fun.
this is the worst kind of deck to exist in any format.
but being stupid and uninteresting, if not super strong, is not a reason to ban anything... so.... yeah.
It is simple for sure, straightforward and uninteractive but I would not personally call it stupid or uninteresting. This is really what a combo should be like, not guaranteed and tied into variance/luck. Some people want to play based on luck and I'm for that, this is a deck in Pioneer that is right down that alley. I doesn't need a ban and people will find out that is is inconsistent and based on luck at this time. Combo decks that lock/win consistently are "unfun". This one is like buying a lotto ticket and seeing if you win. Some people like that, some don't. Until something else comes along that makes it consistent in Pioneer (or Standard or Historic) I am fine with it and enjoy playing it as a change of pace when I don't want to require a lot of thought and just want to base my success on luck.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm pretty sure they did, and they put that horribly designed random milling effect to try to counter that, instead of just stating "Counter target spell you don't control" which would have been simpler, far more elegant and less abusable.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
I think ppl are overplaying the impact of the card, at least in Modern. You could run Silence in response to the Trickery to prevent the casting of anything after the Trickery resolves. Or just run permanent bounce of some sort. There's always Force of Negation if they decide to do the trick on their own turn but I'm not sure how feasible that would be.
In Standard there's Concerted Defense. Again, not great options but they are at least doable.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
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People are acting like the president of wotc DIDN'T say he was fine with having to regularly ban cards out of standard.
Reach out and torch someone . . .
People dont have to agree with what the president of wotc is saying.
And they sure dont have to like the direction, as is very clear to tell as people point out banning cards in standard is basically the worst case scenario for a chase card to be (as early investment in that card is punished quite sever, cutting deep into its value and so the value of the entire set if the "big" cards money is cut in pieces).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
But then they still shouldn't be complaining about designers "missing" the card, when it's just as likely (and considering the awkward wording involving milling the chances are very good) that the card was not missed, but rather intentionally pushed by a directive outside of the control of the people that receive the lion's share of the blame.
It's like complaining about the shoddy work of the worker at the assembly line or the engineer when the board of directors incorporated planned obsolescence in their product. Be unhappy. Complain. But also improve your aim.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
So your argument is that yes, the complaint is correct, but that the blame is possibly aimed in the wrong direction?
Based on the last 1 1/2 to 2 years we've seen a whole lot misses, a literal historic amount of them in terms of bannings. When was the last time a Standard set didn't have a banning(s) again? Zendikar Rising literally had one as the set was coming out calling back to an almost Memory Jar scenario.
That being said, there's no need to be condescendant towards people on this forum who think otherwise.
Even then, if "Wizards" (what does this word even mean in this context ?) is okay with mistakes, it's fair to complain some cards are mistakes. I doubt dev teams are happy when they screw up and receive community backlash. Time will tell, but a card like Tibalt's Trickery may be remembered as a terrible design mistake, and I doubt Maro will talk about it like "it was okay, we stopped to care about cards that ruin formats a long time ago anyway !". Won't happen.
And again, some people take for granted the narrative some president delivered, but it may very well be a posture in order to reduce the devs incompetence in the eye of the customer. Wizards community management is very smart.
Let's not forget some of those mistakes were not caused by new designs, but just blatant "wtf" wordings, synergies or stats on cards : Hostage Taker erratum, Saheeli Rai + Felidar Guardian in the same set, Oko, Thief of Crowns and the other broken green cards in that same set, etc...
We can argue where to draw the line with power creep or Color Pie break, and agree to disagree, nonetheless it happened quite a few times where we knew what was about to happen with previewed cards, and devs were unable to notice or fix anything. Once they ban the cards or mention in an article "woops we missed it", we're not talking about Wizards being okay with mistakes, we're witnessing devs who acknowledge they screwed up.
I personnally have no issue with Wizards pushing the boundaries, it's just sad that potential powerful yet balanced cards (like Oko, for example) were mistakenly put on steroids, and it will remain as is forever.
UR Murktide
Pauper
RW Monarch
UW Caw-Gate
UBR Affinity
the version with a ton of lands and aggressive mulligan doesn't have a hint of resilience as it's simply destroyed by a single counterspell or discard spell...
also, takes 3 turns to go off.
the other version is very inconsistent, even though stronger than the 51 lands version.
it will missfire A LOT.
also as every combo deck ever, it´s completely disrupted by counterspells or discard. ditto, it's not a insta scoop like the 51 lands version.
Standard/Historic versions look like a meme deck... they're waaaaay to inconsistent and the amount of free wins is pretty close to the amount of insta scoops because of bad luck.
the card can very well be beaten and will not take the meta by assault like what Omnath did.
all that said..... every single match is uninteresting when this deck is involved.
there's no back and forth plays, no real interaction.... either the deck goes off and runs away with the game on turn 3 or something, or it simply does nothing and gets trampled over.
there's no middle ground, thus no possibility of interesting matches involving it, if anything is reason to ban the card, I think it's this....
but we had our quota of decks like this, and most of them weren't even up for banning.
I'm sure that will get changed just like split cards did for the same reason.
I'm actually very surprised they did not change this right away in the Kaldheim rules primer.
Likely so they can get some extra sales due to this powerful loophole for now and then change it later once sales are done.
probably you can cascade the other side if the cmc is lower than that sides cmc
I tried the Modern Ponza-like Jund Cascade deck for some games (on Cockatrice), and while it might have been the best build of Ponza I've played in years, it still suffers from Ponza's inconsistency at dealing with combo decks (and with Tibalt's Trickery in that other Cascade combo deck, combo is on the rise in Modern). Big Tibalt can and has been dealt with multiple times after resolving in testing, but he is a brutal beating.
The Cascade rules I've read are that only the front face is respected for whether a card can be cast with Cascade, but either face can be cast this way.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
yes, it's absolutely inconsistent in Standard, Historic and Pioneer.
inconsistent and uninteresting at the same time.
people will aggressively mulligan until they can do their trick on turn 2.
then, if it's not disrupted and it hits something big, it wins, else, the dude playing it scoops.
it makes for matches where no one is having fun.
this is the worst kind of deck to exist in any format.
but being stupid and uninteresting, if not super strong, is not a reason to ban anything... so.... yeah.
I don't understand. If only the top side is searched for then how can you possibly cast the other side?
Edit: I have this text from release to support you are wrong "If it does, it enters the battlefield with its front face up. For example, if an effect allows "
Edit two: "an effect allows you to play a land or cast a spell from among a group of cards, you may play or cast a modal double-faced card with any face that fits the criteria of that effect. " So unless you play a cascade spell of 8 then tibalt side does not fit the cascade criteria.
your interpretation isn't really the correct one....
cascade goes through the deck searching for something below it's cost.
it will see only the Valki side and then say "well, you can play this card"
then the card says....
"when playing the card, you may choose which side to cast"
with the current rules, playing Tibalt is perfectly legal.
and I do think it's very, very weird that this rule has even seen the light of day, specially because they fixed the very same loophole for split cards a long time ago....
To the judges I go.
Edit: rulings guys clarified it, I am wrong. Somehow cascade ignores above text. They need to fix this asap
It is simple for sure, straightforward and uninteractive but I would not personally call it stupid or uninteresting. This is really what a combo should be like, not guaranteed and tied into variance/luck. Some people want to play based on luck and I'm for that, this is a deck in Pioneer that is right down that alley. I doesn't need a ban and people will find out that is is inconsistent and based on luck at this time. Combo decks that lock/win consistently are "unfun". This one is like buying a lotto ticket and seeing if you win. Some people like that, some don't. Until something else comes along that makes it consistent in Pioneer (or Standard or Historic) I am fine with it and enjoy playing it as a change of pace when I don't want to require a lot of thought and just want to base my success on luck.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
i'm fairly certain this was supposed to be a card like mayhem devils or risk factor....they never checked countering their own thing.
I'm pretty sure they did, and they put that horribly designed random milling effect to try to counter that, instead of just stating "Counter target spell you don't control" which would have been simpler, far more elegant and less abusable.
In Standard there's Concerted Defense. Again, not great options but they are at least doable.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.