This reminds me of what I heard on a podcast a few months ago re: Ikoria.
The basic point is that they are basically saying to players.."Oh, we hear you like Pizza. That's awesome. Well, how about a Pizza with french fries and a few scoops of ice cream on top, covered in caramel sauce and sprinkles? *WAY* BETTER, RIGHT?"
No, it isn't. It tastes terrible,actually.
That's the problem with many recent sets. I mean..it's just too much.
Well for this cycle/super cycle I think I can guess each one
(Which is more/stronger for you less/weaker for them
Welesh norn is tokens
Ujin-gitaxias either draw or copying spells (for copy it copy’s twice for you it counters copy’s for opponents)
B sheoldred (if alive) should just be “Spells and abilities your opponents control can’t cause you to sacrifice permanents” and probably sacrifice twice as many permanents for opponents
I don't know if we are looking at a cylce. If they can plane walk now why should they all go to the same place?
Urabrask should only have the damage doubling effect and not the absorbing damage one. That would be white and red doesn't get life gain or similar effects. Maybe he has the Ironas, God of Victory kind of effect what is kind of white, too but more battle oriented.
There is nothing they could do that wouldn't be relentlessly lambasted. The things you want are in the set. The things other people want are also in the set. The WotC development team isn't developing to meet your expectations at the expense of everyone else. No set will ever include exactly what you want and nothing else.
This isn't targeted at anyone specifically, just addressing the general sentiments of perpetual disappointment that I find a bit unreasonable.
I'm happy to see phyrexians return. I'm happy to see this new Vorinclex too. It sure will be an expensive one though.
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There is nothing they could do that wouldn't be relentlessly lambasted. The things you want are in the set. The things other people want are also in the set. The WotC development team isn't developing to meet your expectations at the expense of everyone else. No set will ever include exactly what you want and nothing else.
At least give people something to love, not just an endless repeat of a garbeled mixture.
So thats why they put so much stuff in and disregard negative response, their design goal in itself just wants to find something to hit on, doesnt matter if others outright hate the design.
Some people will really enjoy a bag of different candy, others want to buy a box of the candy they like and not have stuff in the pack they outright hate.
Cant really do it right no matter what.
(Funny enough, watching Maro talk and tell his lessons gives a very good introspective that some of their "playtesters" are basically completely incompetent, so what the player types want will always be drastically different)
So i would argue that they fail to integrate Maros lessons and just have to learn them again.
The basic point is that they are basically saying to players.."Oh, we hear you like Pizza. That's awesome. Well, how about a Pizza with french fries and a few scoops of ice cream on top, covered in caramel sauce and sprinkles? *WAY* BETTER, RIGHT?"
No, it isn't. It tastes terrible,actually.
Well, blame americans. They would ate that ***** and be happy too.
By the way i would wait to judge. "Phyrexian vikings" sounds indeed like a terrible idea, but Vorinclex could alone as far as we know.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I just mean to say things aren’t as simple as they may seem on the surface. I’m not really convinced that at least the Vorinclex is real. It seems weird that they’d show no hints up to now that Phyrexia was coming and that they’d have them go from “we suspect that there may be other planes” to “we have mastered planeswalking to a degree that our most important leaders are using it” off screen.
If they stick with the "Elesh Norn is supreme praetor now" direction that I read about, then maybe the other Praetors are forced to make their own luck colonizing new planes.
Btw, I never wanted Phyrexian to be a creature type. That's like putting Dominarian onto a typeline. They are bio-mechanical beings, but they are just as diverse and not-unified as Esperites or other full-plane ecosystems. A part of the charm was that they were not just a single race, but a world.
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Quote from Conuly »
Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
The basic point is that they are basically saying to players.."Oh, we hear you like Pizza. That's awesome. Well, how about a Pizza with french fries and a few scoops of ice cream on top, covered in caramel sauce and sprinkles? *WAY* BETTER, RIGHT?"
No, it isn't. It tastes terrible,actually.
Well, blame americans. They would ate that ***** and be happy too.
By the way i would wait to judge. "Phyrexian vikings" sounds indeed like a terrible idea, but Vorinclex could alone as far as we know.
I mean, they've been advertising this as the "metal" set, and zombie cyborg vikings are about as metal as it gets...
Well for this cycle/super cycle I think I can guess each one
(Which is more/stronger for you less/weaker for them
Welesh norn is tokens
Ujin-gitaxias either draw or copying spells (for copy it copy’s twice for you it counters copy’s for opponents)
B sheoldred (if alive) should just be “Spells and abilities your opponents control can’t cause you to sacrifice permanents” and probably sacrifice twice as many permanents for opponents
I don't know if we are looking at a cylce. If they can plane walk now why should they all go to the same place?
Urabrask should only have the damage doubling effect and not the absorbing damage one. That would be white and red doesn't get life gain or similar effects. Maybe he has the Ironas, God of Victory kind of effect what is kind of white, too but more battle oriented.
rememebr the walking theory is due to possible tezzert striking a deal with them (he still has the planar bridge it wasn't in his arm that exploded) or tibalt using the realm sword if neither probably something to do with bifrost
and Maro said a 2.0 of the praetors from new phyrexia was a big when thus a cycle
The answer to what plane a Phyrexian should invade is: Yes.
This is because Phyrexians are meant to be multi-planar level threats that are a fusion of various sci-fi horror stuff like Alien and the Borg. It doesn't matter what that world is as that plane will be assimilated and compleated.
Remember the stuff with Emrakul on Innistrad? That is of a similar level threat, but instead of being an eldritch monstrosity with unknowable motives aside from hunger, the Phyrexian's strive for perfection in compleation and will force this perfection on others.
Or that stuff with Nicol Bolas decimating an entire plane then taking its survivors and turning them into what he believed as the perfect army through mummification and lazotep plating? That is like a cute science fair project in comparison to what Phyrexians are.
The biggest difference between Phyrexians, Nicol Bolas, and Emrakul though is fairly simple in terms of multi-planar level threats: Nicol Bolas and Emrakul's vision lives and dies with them, not literal death mind you but in their abscene. The Phyrexian's vision however is an instinctual dogma and to battle an ideology is harder than to battle simply a big bad threat.
Yawgmoth died, we thought his vision died with him. But when the oil in Karn's heart leaked onto what we knew as Mirrodin at the time, that created a new breed of Phyrexians with the same core beliefs of 'all will be compleated' as though nothing had changed even though they are divorced from Yawgmoth himself. The vision lives on. The only infighting came from the fact that there was no Father of Machines to guide them, so we had five praetors who took different roads for the same destination.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk about Phyrexians.
I agree that Phyrexians should invade planes, I just question if it's best saved for a return rather than an introduction.
...that said, I did just realize that the elves of this plane have a special connection to their metal armor and Tyvar Kells in particular was noted to be able to warp flesh to natural materials like metal...
If it's 'Viking world completely overrun by Phyrexians in the style of the garbage fire we had with the last Innistrad....awful, that would be just awful, i love Innistrad and that is one of my all time least favorite sets.
If it's Vorinclex and just a COUPLE Phyrexian cards tied to that brute berserker power of green, then Jin Gitaxias and a few thinkers of Strixhaven, just keep going ONE praetor and a couple buddies on 5 planes with little snippets leading to a set where the Phyrexians are the thing and they aren't rolling over an otherwise already exciting plane, that could be cool. Not like they did with Bolas where it was all about him for a good long time leading up to it. More like Marvel did, they SPRINKLE a few things in about the stones being a matched set, Thanos has a couple short scenes....the buildup needs to be IN the sets, not INSTEAD of the other elements.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I agree that Phyrexians should invade planes, I just question if it's best saved for a return rather than an introduction.
...that said, I did just realize that the elves of this plane have a special connection to their metal armor and Tyvar Kells in particular was noted to be able to warp flesh to natural materials like metal...
They also mentioned the two factions of elves that are currently unified under one leader. I wonder if one faction will begin being compleated while the other fights against it. Maybe not in this single set but on a return visit once the compleation really starts ramping up.
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I agree that Phyrexians should invade planes, I just question if it's best saved for a return rather than an introduction.
...that said, I did just realize that the elves of this plane have a special connection to their metal armor and Tyvar Kells in particular was noted to be able to warp flesh to natural materials like metal...
And it gets better and its actually fitting with norse myth.
So for context on the MTG side: We have Elesh Norn who is The Mother of Machines and is essentially beautiful by Phyrexian standards. She rules also over the Machine Orthodoxy. The will of her is the will of Phyrexia and that will is enforce onto others glorious compleation.
And for the Norse side: We have the Norns. Beautiful maidens in myth who ruled over the destiny of gods and men alike.
I think it just sort of hit me what my particular issue would be with this, storyline wise. In Amonkhet block, there were plenty of signs of Bolas, but there wasn't a Bolas card there till Part 2.
Since we switched to the one block model, we don't have a part 2 anymore. This set has to be buildup and payoff, and that makes the world buildup and Phyrexian punch both weaker with the current state of things.
So, what are the rules/laws here w/ "accidental" cards ending up in current packs? We know WotC does this to slip previews into the masses; but what would happen if the owner of both of these wanted to take advantage of "owning" the ONLY KHM singles a month in advance by throwing them on eBay? Can the owner put them on eBay and sell Vorinclex for $50? I know may would jump on the chance to play w/ one of these casually ahead of time.
And it gets better and its actually fitting with norse myth.
So for context on the MTG side: We have Elesh Norn who is The Mother of Machines and is essentially beautiful by Phyrexian standards. She rules also over the Machine Orthodoxy. The will of her is the will of Phyrexia and that will is enforce onto others glorious compleation.
And for the Norse side: We have the Norns. Beautiful maidens in myth who ruled over the destiny of gods and men alike.
I think a closer comparison might be the more meta example of the Christianization of Norse Myths leading to the current understanding of Ragnarok, personally.
Not that anyone asked or noticed yet, but there was an Elesh Norn card that's been debunked. The person also quoted the tweet with Vorinclex, which may have also been debunked (only Elesh Norn is in their artist gallery).
Theyve shied away from those in recent sets, and it wouldnt make sense for every praetor on new phyrexia to leave the plane. The power vacuum would be immense unless they also reveal a new unifying voice. That all seems like way too much to jam into a brand new plane's story given that now we do one shots instead of blocks.
Not that anyone asked or noticed yet, but there was an Elesh Norn card that's been debunked. The person also quoted the tweet with Vorinclex, which may have also been debunked (only Elesh Norn is in their artist gallery).
I saw that I wouldn't necessarily say that vorinclex's has quite a few differences from this fake elesh norn one
So, what are the rules/laws here w/ "accidental" cards ending up in current packs? We know WotC does this to slip previews into the masses; but what would happen if the owner of both of these wanted to take advantage of "owning" the ONLY KHM singles a month in advance by throwing them on eBay? Can the owner put them on eBay and sell Vorinclex for $50? I know may would jump on the chance to play w/ one of these casually ahead of time.
Gray areas... gray areas...
If that is truly what happened the owner can do whatever they want with the cards, they bought them, they own them they can sell them for a trillion dollars if they want. They just won't be legal for sanctioned play until prerelease/release. Frankly I'd be selling to the highest bidder if that is what actually happened.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Not that anyone asked or noticed yet, but there was an Elesh Norn card that's been debunked. The person also quoted the tweet with Vorinclex, which may have also been debunked (only Elesh Norn is in their artist gallery).
I saw that I wouldn't necessarily say that vorinclex's has quite a few differences from this fake elesh norn one
the biggest is the holo seal on the bottom
I will put them up for comparison
Foils are easier to make proxies cause it is easier to remove the ink and then print above an old card, The space for the Holo stamp was just left unprinted (you can see the foil layer). If you want to print a normal card you actually need a really good printer or you need to make the entire card.
Being in a video, with nice quality, having unseen art, fitting the set boosters "the list" and also having good template for all the cards probably validates he leak.
That Elesh Norn imo is fake made just to say "oy it is easy to print proxies (above old foils)"
The basic point is that they are basically saying to players.."Oh, we hear you like Pizza. That's awesome. Well, how about a Pizza with french fries and a few scoops of ice cream on top, covered in caramel sauce and sprinkles? *WAY* BETTER, RIGHT?"
No, it isn't. It tastes terrible,actually.
That's the problem with many recent sets. I mean..it's just too much.
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I don't know if we are looking at a cylce. If they can plane walk now why should they all go to the same place?
Urabrask should only have the damage doubling effect and not the absorbing damage one. That would be white and red doesn't get life gain or similar effects. Maybe he has the Ironas, God of Victory kind of effect what is kind of white, too but more battle oriented.
This isn't targeted at anyone specifically, just addressing the general sentiments of perpetual disappointment that I find a bit unreasonable.
I'm happy to see phyrexians return. I'm happy to see this new Vorinclex too. It sure will be an expensive one though.
At least give people something to love, not just an endless repeat of a garbeled mixture.
Magic: the Gathering: Twenty Years, Twenty Lessons Learned
----
So thats why they put so much stuff in and disregard negative response, their design goal in itself just wants to find something to hit on, doesnt matter if others outright hate the design.
Some people will really enjoy a bag of different candy, others want to buy a box of the candy they like and not have stuff in the pack they outright hate.
Cant really do it right no matter what.
(Funny enough, watching Maro talk and tell his lessons gives a very good introspective that some of their "playtesters" are basically completely incompetent, so what the player types want will always be drastically different)
So i would argue that they fail to integrate Maros lessons and just have to learn them again.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Well, blame americans. They would ate that ***** and be happy too.
By the way i would wait to judge. "Phyrexian vikings" sounds indeed like a terrible idea, but Vorinclex could alone as far as we know.
If they stick with the "Elesh Norn is supreme praetor now" direction that I read about, then maybe the other Praetors are forced to make their own luck colonizing new planes.
Btw, I never wanted Phyrexian to be a creature type. That's like putting Dominarian onto a typeline. They are bio-mechanical beings, but they are just as diverse and not-unified as Esperites or other full-plane ecosystems. A part of the charm was that they were not just a single race, but a world.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
I mean, they've been advertising this as the "metal" set, and zombie cyborg vikings are about as metal as it gets...
rememebr the walking theory is due to possible tezzert striking a deal with them (he still has the planar bridge it wasn't in his arm that exploded) or tibalt using the realm sword if neither probably something to do with bifrost
and Maro said a 2.0 of the praetors from new phyrexia was a big when thus a cycle
This is because Phyrexians are meant to be multi-planar level threats that are a fusion of various sci-fi horror stuff like Alien and the Borg. It doesn't matter what that world is as that plane will be assimilated and compleated.
Remember the stuff with Emrakul on Innistrad? That is of a similar level threat, but instead of being an eldritch monstrosity with unknowable motives aside from hunger, the Phyrexian's strive for perfection in compleation and will force this perfection on others.
Or that stuff with Nicol Bolas decimating an entire plane then taking its survivors and turning them into what he believed as the perfect army through mummification and lazotep plating? That is like a cute science fair project in comparison to what Phyrexians are.
The biggest difference between Phyrexians, Nicol Bolas, and Emrakul though is fairly simple in terms of multi-planar level threats: Nicol Bolas and Emrakul's vision lives and dies with them, not literal death mind you but in their abscene. The Phyrexian's vision however is an instinctual dogma and to battle an ideology is harder than to battle simply a big bad threat.
Yawgmoth died, we thought his vision died with him. But when the oil in Karn's heart leaked onto what we knew as Mirrodin at the time, that created a new breed of Phyrexians with the same core beliefs of 'all will be compleated' as though nothing had changed even though they are divorced from Yawgmoth himself. The vision lives on. The only infighting came from the fact that there was no Father of Machines to guide them, so we had five praetors who took different roads for the same destination.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk about Phyrexians.
I agree that Phyrexians should invade planes, I just question if it's best saved for a return rather than an introduction.
...that said, I did just realize that the elves of this plane have a special connection to their metal armor and Tyvar Kells in particular was noted to be able to warp flesh to natural materials like metal...
If it's Vorinclex and just a COUPLE Phyrexian cards tied to that brute berserker power of green, then Jin Gitaxias and a few thinkers of Strixhaven, just keep going ONE praetor and a couple buddies on 5 planes with little snippets leading to a set where the Phyrexians are the thing and they aren't rolling over an otherwise already exciting plane, that could be cool. Not like they did with Bolas where it was all about him for a good long time leading up to it. More like Marvel did, they SPRINKLE a few things in about the stones being a matched set, Thanos has a couple short scenes....the buildup needs to be IN the sets, not INSTEAD of the other elements.
They also mentioned the two factions of elves that are currently unified under one leader. I wonder if one faction will begin being compleated while the other fights against it. Maybe not in this single set but on a return visit once the compleation really starts ramping up.
So for context on the MTG side: We have Elesh Norn who is The Mother of Machines and is essentially beautiful by Phyrexian standards. She rules also over the Machine Orthodoxy. The will of her is the will of Phyrexia and that will is enforce onto others glorious compleation.
And for the Norse side: We have the Norns. Beautiful maidens in myth who ruled over the destiny of gods and men alike.
Since we switched to the one block model, we don't have a part 2 anymore. This set has to be buildup and payoff, and that makes the world buildup and Phyrexian punch both weaker with the current state of things.
Gray areas... gray areas...
I think a closer comparison might be the more meta example of the Christianization of Norse Myths leading to the current understanding of Ragnarok, personally.
Not that anyone asked or noticed yet, but there was an Elesh Norn card that's been debunked. The person also quoted the tweet with Vorinclex, which may have also been debunked (only Elesh Norn is in their artist gallery).
Theyve shied away from those in recent sets, and it wouldnt make sense for every praetor on new phyrexia to leave the plane. The power vacuum would be immense unless they also reveal a new unifying voice. That all seems like way too much to jam into a brand new plane's story given that now we do one shots instead of blocks.
I saw that I wouldn't necessarily say that vorinclex's has quite a few differences from this fake elesh norn one
the biggest is the holo seal on the bottom
I will put them up for comparison
The snow card would be nice though.
I need help.
Concerning the fake Elesh Norn, I'm also pretty sure it would be "each different kind of counter", not "counters".
If that is truly what happened the owner can do whatever they want with the cards, they bought them, they own them they can sell them for a trillion dollars if they want. They just won't be legal for sanctioned play until prerelease/release. Frankly I'd be selling to the highest bidder if that is what actually happened.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Foils are easier to make proxies cause it is easier to remove the ink and then print above an old card, The space for the Holo stamp was just left unprinted (you can see the foil layer). If you want to print a normal card you actually need a really good printer or you need to make the entire card.
Being in a video, with nice quality, having unseen art, fitting the set boosters "the list" and also having good template for all the cards probably validates he leak.
That Elesh Norn imo is fake made just to say "oy it is easy to print proxies (above old foils)"
This might end the debate
by major request, the leaker is giving the cards a counterfeit test he went with the Rosette Pattern test a believe correct me if I'm wrong on that