I have to admit I kinda agree with Tiro in principle. Not about Kaya specifically but about how planeswalkers are treated in the story.
Focusing on only one instance of planeswalker-environment interaction leads a bit to a distorted picture. In a vacuum planeswalkers being able to kill/overshadow/supplant native legendary creatures is fine. It's not a problem, but it happens again and again and again. If a certain pattern happens too often, it stops being a story event and starts being a way the narrative is approached by the authors. Even War of the Spark would have been fine, even though three of the guilds were usurped by extra-planar agents. In fact it would have served as a major contrast to the other stories and underline Nicol Bolas' influence. It could have served to enhance the story. Except stuff like this happens constantly. Even if the planeswalkers weren't necessarily the means to solve the story, like in Shadows over Innistrad, they still overshadowed everything and everyone else.
I think the main reason why I loved the Amonkhet storyline so much despite it being qualitatively kinda average was because for once the planeswalkers were more of a backdrop, only there to lead up to the next storyline, and the real drama was how the environment reacted to the plot.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Magic storytelling is best when it is environmental. It just doesn't lend itself well to character-centric storytelling, simply due to the game's own internal structure.
I understand why Magic does it. And the success seems to speak in their favour. But that does not make it a good approach to storytelling (which, fair, is only secondary to the game) and it also doesn't mean I have to like it.
This is exactly my point, good analysis.
For the record, I have criticized Gideon and Ulamog encounter the most, I only mention Kaya now due to the apprehension of which brand new character she's here to kill as soon as we're introduced to them. Wasting a character just to make a PW look like a badass (in general) and compromising a plane's environment/flavor in the process for such minimal, pointless gain is bad storytelling. Either PWs are pre-mending power, or they're not. The latter makes for better stories, if it's actually executed that way.
You're acting like this scenario is unique to Kaya and the Obzedat as opposed to the poor writing found all throughout the Magic storyline. I mean wasn't that kind of what happened when they wrapped up Battle for Zendikar block? A group of tweens managed to hold hands and then use a BIG FIREBALL to beat imperceptible extraplanar entities that destroy worlds? Then there's Innistrad 2. Was Lili and her high school friends holding off Emrakul with the chain veil until the eldrazi decided to jump in the moon for no reason better writing? Vraska killed a guild leader no problem and without much pomp and circumstance but no one really complains about that. Why is it only Kaya's dumb story you guys have a problem with? There's plenty of dumb stories to whinge about but this minor point in the last Ravnica block sure is getting an undue amount of focus.
Lol, putting words in my mouth? Yeah, those are examples of dumb storytelling too. The killing of the eldrazi was atrocious too, but at least it had a little more planning behind.
Something tells me you must not like almost any form of fiction, as “guy more powerful than protagonist still loses” is hardly original to Magic, nor is “protagonist has a unique power”.
Yeah and mary sue succeeding at everything because it's mary sue is still bad storytelling, no matter how much you try to twist it, generalize it or strawman it.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
What even is most of this discussion? Word salad merry-go-rounds?
Lets summarize this trainwreck: Camp A dislikes Kaya because she is used as a tool by the writers to kill off non-planeswalker characters. Camp B likes Kaya because she killed some non-planeswalker characters off.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?
This is exactly it. And it applies to all Planeswalkers too.
If gods, guild leaders, souls of planes, Eldrazi, leading archangels, etc. are pushovers, if these characters have nothing they need to learn or struggle against except other Planeswalkers, the environments are pointless, as is their ability to travel. Being the main character doesn't mean eclipsing all other characters and rendering the settings pointless.
When PWs overthrew the guild leaders I just rolled my eyes. I don't even see the point of having these worlds if it's the same story told on them all.
Well, I am willing to read the Kaldheim story and give it a chance. Perhaps I am wrong, and this will be different. But if PWs just come in like Mary Sues against gods and their enemies then wtf.
What even is most of this discussion? Word salad merry-go-rounds?
Lets summarize this trainwreck: Camp A dislikes Kaya because she is used as a tool by the writers to kill off non-planeswalker characters. Camp B likes Kaya because she killed some non-planeswalker characters off.
Excellent both-sidesing. You are truly the most enlightened of centrists.
Yeah and mary sue succeeding at everything because it's mary sue is still bad storytelling, no matter how much you try to twist it, generalize it or strawman it.
Wait now I'm confused. Is she a bad person because of all her flaws or is she literally a flawless character because she's a Mary Sue? And don't you think it's a little silly to just use the term Mary Sue to describe a female character you don't like? Why not just call her a Karen too if these words have lost all meaning?
Listen guys. We can recognize that you keep saying that Kaya is a bad character and the reasons you guys can list off as to why you don't like her but it's pretty inconsistent when all these other poorly-written characters get a pass and don't get entire threads full of every criticism you all can think of no matter how contradictory or inapplicable. What makes Kaya so uniquely disdained? Because a lot of the criticisms brought up apply to many, many other characters in Magic's lore. A Mary Sue? Jace is more of a Mary Sue. Many other planeswalkers are more of a Mary Sue than Kaya, who is just one of many planeswalkers who have been solely successful up to this point with our very limited exposure to her.
There's a post up above that lists every action Kaya has taken in Magic as some kind of proof that she's an evil character with no redeemable qualities. And even if you twist every instance of seeing her in the storyline in the most uncharitable way then you come to the conclusion that sure, maybe she's a bad person. But that's not unique to her either. Ral Zarek did some bad things. Heliod did some bad things. Vraska did some bad things. Chainer did some bad things. Braids did some bad things. Kamahl did some bad things. Why aren't we seeing threads full of posts twisting every appearance they've made throughout the storylines, trying to turn them into Satan times a million like we see with Kaya?
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
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Protection from reason (Decadent_Creed can't be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by reason.)
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.
I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)
capitalist noun
Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
industrial capitalists
broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
2: a person who favors capitalism
Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.
Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.
The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.
In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
-Wondering if the Ulamog thing in the swamp will be a statue, or an offspring, that is now dormant.
-The angel is using some of Kozilek bismuth on her weapon.
-Could the ruin in the sky be another look at Emeria?
-Seagate more or less rebuild.
What I'm wondering is, how much of the Roil will be left on Zendikar, after the Eldrazi are gone. I also think it is strange that we got Jace her, I know the canon status of the two Ravnica novels is questionable, but I thought we would see him on Vryn and Kiora instead in this set, the fill out the native trio. Regardless it is nice to see "adventure" Jace, as a contrast to his last two visits to the plane.
I also expected Jace to be heading to Vryn and Kiora to be here, using Thassa's Bident to rebuild the seas and coastal regions of Zendikar. She headed back to Zendikar after War of the Spark as well.
I admire Adventure Jace regardless, giving me those Ixalan vibes I loved. But I do feel Kiora should have been here instead, despite Jace being my favorite character.
The remnants of Ulamog after being blown apart with moss and vegetation growth is pretty cool. Future generations may mistake it for a statue of a god, but it was once living.
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
-Wondering if the Ulamog thing in the swamp will be a statue, or an offspring, that is now dormant.
-The angel is using some of Kozilek bismuth on her weapon.
-Could the ruin in the sky be another look at Emeria?
-Seagate more or less rebuild.
What I'm wondering is, how much of the Roil will be left on Zendikar, after the Eldrazi are gone. I also think it is strange that we got Jace her, I know the canon status of the two Ravnica novels is questionable, but I thought we would see him on Vryn and Kiora instead in this set, the fill out the native trio. Regardless it is nice to see "adventure" Jace, as a contrast to his last two visits to the plane.
I also expected Jace to be heading to Vryn and Kiora to be here, using Thassa's Bident to rebuild the seas and coastal regions of Zendikar. She headed back to Zendikar after War of the Spark as well.
I admire Adventure Jace regardless, giving me those Ixalan vibes I loved. But I do feel Kiora should have been here instead, despite Jace being my favorite character.
The remnants of Ulamog after being blown apart with moss and vegetation growth is pretty cool. Future generations may mistake it for a statue of a god, but it was once living.
Two indeed can play but I wish for all to examine the evidence. Did Tiro's initial reaction to seeing Jace in the packaging reflect a frustration that planeswalkers were too prominent in the game and overshadowing planebound creatures?
Jace or Kiora, it doesn't matter. You have one standard for the kinds of planeswalkers that you like and that you enjoy seeing in the game, and an altogether different standard for those planeswalkers that you don't care about.
One doesn't have to be an intentional and raging misogynist or racist to enable, or normalize, either systemic racism or sexism.
Intent doesn't matter, but having two clearly different standards or expectations for the kinds of characters that one likes, or doesn't like does actually matter quite a bit.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards that are detrimental to women and People of Colour.
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards.
We as a MtG community have to change.
Actually, my very first post in this thread criticized planeswalkers as a whole, not specifically Kaya, and I called all of them Mary Sues. So again, you're clearly assuming what you want about my posts.
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards.
We as a MtG community have to change.
Actually, my very first post in this thread criticized planeswalkers as a whole, not specifically Kaya, and I called all of them Mary Sues. So again, you're clearly assuming what you want about my posts.
But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".
Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards.
We as a MtG community have to change.
Actually, my very first post in this thread criticized planeswalkers as a whole, not specifically Kaya, and I called all of them Mary Sues. So again, you're clearly assuming what you want about my posts.
But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".
Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.
There was already discussion in this thread about Dues Ex Machina/another spirit Legend dying (aspects of lore) that I was responding to with further criticism. And I already posted an example of criticism of even Jace being in Zendikar that you claimed didn't exist.
I’m sick of Planeswalkers period. They aren’t written like explorers that learn from visiting worlds, but like OP Mary Sues that somehow how every advantage on the turfs of others. I like how Ixalan Jace and Vraska and Tamiyo overall were written, however.
If anything, I responded to criticism of Kaya specifically by generally applying that criticism to how WOTC authors PW characters in general, instead. I didn't pin all the blame on her. It's always been about the writing of these characters, not gender or race, even if CNN tells you it always is.
Wait now I'm confused. Is she a bad person because of all her flaws or is she literally a flawless character because she's a Mary Sue? And don't you think it's a little silly to just use the term Mary Sue to describe a female character you don't like? Why not just call her a Karen too if these words have lost all meaning?
She is a mary sue because she is a mary sue. She can solve any problem with her special power and come out unscathed.
In the game mechanic is extremely easy to exile a spirit, but in the lore is a power that almost no one has.
Except Kaya! Enter the miracolous power she received from birth and that she can can easily use without any training/character development/whatever. And no, that power is not also ghost-killing, is also planeswalking!
And yeah, that can be said for many neowalkers and i say that about them too, don't worry.
Returning to Kaya, she go to a plane, kill and extremely old and powerful being with a knife, get some money and get out.
Oh yeah, let's add the fact that her power somehow let her bypass the fact non-walker can't do planar travels! That will totally make her a good written character!
... i don't get why i should like her. Is that because she helped a tyrant like Marchesa get in power? Is that because she helped Bolas with his plan? Is that because she got some money while doing so?
There are plenty of neowalkers i dislike and that i'm glad are not the face of this block. In the end Kaya isn't even one of worse, it just striked me how much some people had to do mental gymnastic to defend what is a mediocre written character, at best.
If you want to make it about racism, do it. Honestly i don't care about some strangers on the internet insulting me because i dislike their favourite avengers wannabe. I know who i am as a person, i know for who i voted and i know that being antiracism doesn't mean like the black character no matter what.
In the end i just think that "ghost-killer mercenary get paid to kill some old spirits" doesn't make a good story for a norse block, no matter the skin color of the ghost-killer mercenary. Maybe Kaya will do something different this time, but let's be honest she's a one trick pony.
If you really want a noncaucasian woman as the face of Kaldheim, idk probably Huatli or Samut could have been better. Huatli could learn poetry about Kaldheim's heroes and become a skald or Samut could have done... idk warrior stuff.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.
I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)
capitalist noun
Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
industrial capitalists
broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
2: a person who favors capitalism
Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.
Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.
The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.
In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
Honestly given the utter... mess that is most people trying to defend attacking Kaya while being hypocritical I'll probably just ignore it and reply to this.
1. Kaya doesn't really seem to favor capitalism though either. I'm not even sure any of the Planes we have been on run under Capitalism, maybe Vryn as it seems like maybe it has a modernish analog.
2. I'm... not sure in what way her flavor text indicates a desire to own capital, which is the only real thing capitalism has specifically for it as opposed to any other transaction based system.
3. I'll grant perhaps I am including corporations and not just capitalism in a vacuum with this, but at this stage it is nigh impossible to separate the two. There isn't a Capitalist America (or other country) that isn't impacted by corporations, and those absolutely do advocate for putting profit as high as they can get away with, which isn't a trait I've observed in Kaya.
4. Fair trade is absolutely incompatible though with Capitalism. By owning capital you are by necessity not engaging in fair trade with the workers. It isn't a 1:1 transaction where the scales are balanced on both sides.
5. We do seem to be in agreement on Kaya and the bizarre critique of her certainly. I just find it rather baffling. People complain about her being an assassin, except that people whined that Garruk did not kill enough named characters. People say they only care about her because she's killing off fan favorites, but... no one liked Brago or the Obzedat for their own sake as near as I can tell. Like, mechanically sure, but as characters? Kaya is too powerful, except that people levy that on Kaya specifically instead of walkers in general, all the while ignoring the fact she has a specific "anti-ghost" set up. Anti-ghost Assassin is going to be pretty good at killing arrogant ghosts who don't expect anyone can kill them, especially when, again, they receive support from others. Kaya is too influential, except that the only actions she has taken have been at the behest of others, which is also somehow a bad thing. It's just pretty ridiculous all around. She's greedy, except she does countless things that indicate money is not the primary factor. Wanting to be paid fairly for a service does not mean you're in it only for the money. So on and so forth. All the while complaining about her being not fleshed out enough (yet they somehow can come up with pages of stuff to complain about) and not wanting to let her get more attention to actually get more fleshed out, because... they're upset that she may kill someone who has no story relevance.
Wait now I'm confused. Is she a bad person because of all her flaws or is she literally a flawless character because she's a Mary Sue? And don't you think it's a little silly to just use the term Mary Sue to describe a female character you don't like? Why not just call her a Karen too if these words have lost all meaning?
She is a mary sue because she is a mary sue. She can solve any problem with her special power and come out unscathed.
In the game mechanic is extremely easy to exile a spirit, but in the lore is a power that almost no one has.
Except Kaya! Enter the miracolous power she received from birth and that she can can easily use without any training/character development/whatever. And no, that power is not also ghost-killing, is also planeswalking!
And yeah, that can be said for many neowalkers and i say that about them too, don't worry.
Returning to Kaya, she go to a plane, kill and extremely old and powerful being with a knife, get some money and get out.
Oh yeah, let's add the fact that her power somehow let her bypass the fact non-walker can't do planar travels! That will totally make her a good written character!
... i don't get why i should like her. Is that because she helped a tyrant like Marchesa get in power? Is that because she helped Bolas with his plan? Is that because she got some money while doing so?
There are plenty of neowalkers i dislike and that i'm glad are not the face of this block. In the end Kaya isn't even one of worse, it just striked me how much some people had to do mental gymnastic to defend what is a mediocre written character, at best.
If you want to make it about racism, do it. Honestly i don't care about some strangers on the internet insulting me because i dislike their favourite avengers wannabe. I know who i am as a person, i know for who i voted and i know that being antiracism doesn't mean like the black character no matter what.
In the end i just think that "ghost-killer mercenary get paid to kill some old spirits" doesn't make a good story for a norse block, no matter the skin color of the ghost-killer mercenary. Maybe Kaya will do something different this time, but let's be honest she's a one trick pony.
If you really want a noncaucasian woman as the face of Kaldheim, idk probably Huatli or Samut could have been better. Huatli could learn poetry about Kaldheim's heroes and become a skald or Samut could have done... idk warrior stuff.
Samut could be on Kaldheim to learn about gods of another plane, reminisce about former Amonkhet on a plane with still-living gods, etc. There's definitely a lot of character development they could do with Samut here.
This Mary Sue talk is just getting a bit ridiculous. It's an accusation that gets dragged out way too often at inappropriate times and is almost always used as "female character I don't like." Did you guys notice the name is Mary Sue and not Tommy Sue or some other male name? Can you guys guess why that is? It's because male characters don't get the same kind of weird obsessive scrutiny and criticism for having any kind of success in a story.
Professor X is the only one who can stop Magneto with his helmet off. Oh I guess he's a Mary Sue because he has a special power and it saves the day.
King Arthur is the only one who can pull the sword from the stone and lead the people to victory. He must be a Mary Sue too.
Luke Skywalker becomes super strong and can basically do no wrong in the original trilogy. Mary Sue.
James Bond might as well be named Double Oh Sue because he's a big old Mary Sue.
Michael Jordan in Space Jam? More like Mary Sue Jordan.
Hercules? I think you mean Suecules.
Bruce Willis in Die Hard? Mary Sue. Only special boy Bruce Willis can beat the terrorists because special boy Bruce Willis is just so much better than other cops or the FBI.
If you guys actually applied this evaluation of characters consistently, it would be different. But you don't. And I don't mean retroactively trying to apply the same standard to other characters to appear unbiased. When you look at what people spend their time complaining about you can start to tell where their biases and priorities lie and what they find important by comparing it to what they don't spend the same amount of time and energy to complain about.
If someone truly thinks that there isn't something weirdly different about the criticism of this poorly written character compared to the criticisms of other poorly written characters then can someone point me to the threadfuls of angry "Vraska bad" posts? How about the "Kamahl is Mary Sue and I no like" threads? Or "Why Ajani successful? He no earn" after he used his special unique power to beat Nicol Bolas single-handedly. There are countless characters that are poorly developed, have some niche ability and rarely if ever fail. And yet here we are. Kaya has the unique ability to throw a few of you into a tizzy. I guess we can add that ability to the Mary Sue column since it's another powerful ability only she has.
lol half the people mentioned in that list of Gary Stu's don't fit the description and get ****ed up regularly.
Everybody in this thread needs to step away from the computer a bit and relax. This ***** is not important at all.
Professor X is the only one who can stop Magneto with his helmet off. Oh I guess he's a Mary Sue because he has a special power and it saves the day.
King Arthur is the only one who can pull the sword from the stone and lead the people to victory. He must be a Mary Sue too.
Luke Skywalker becomes super strong and can basically do no wrong in the original trilogy. Mary Sue.
James Bond might as well be named Double Oh Sue because he's a big old Mary Sue.
Michael Jordan in Space Jam? More like Mary Sue Jordan.
Hercules? I think you mean Suecules.
Bruce Willis in Die Hard? Mary Sue. Only special boy Bruce Willis can beat the terrorists because special boy Bruce Willis is just so much better than other cops or the FBI.
You can't even tell the difference between a good written character and a bad one. Being successfull is not the requirement for being a mary sue. Being successfull without earning it and without facing any consequence/hardship is. A description that fits Kaya and not many characters you listed.
If you wanna get triggered because the term "mary sue" is gendered... well get triggered i guess? The term started after a female character called mary sue, it's not random.
If you ask me, a male character can totally be a mary sue. Many male characters from action movies can be considered mary sues. But those kind of movies have *****ty writing and everyone knows it. If we are helding what is supposed to be a fantasy story on the same standard as Rambo or Fast&Furious... well maybe that's already a sign that fantasy story is *****.
As i said before "ghost-assassin is hired to kill some spirits" is a *****ty recipe for a norse block. I of course can't know what will happen on Kaldheim, but if it will be something like Kaya killing spirits of Valhalla because spirits are "unnatural", it will be a *****ty story.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
lol half the people mentioned in that list of Gary Stu's don't fit the description and get ****ed up regularly.
Everybody in this thread needs to step away from the computer a bit and relax. This ***** is not important at all.
That's the point. People aren't even using the term correctly. If we go by the definition other posters are using then these characters are more of a problem than what they're complaining about. None of these characters are Mary Sues but by the standard they try to paint Kaya as one they would have to doubly do so for this list.
A Mary Sue is a self-insert character, often in a fanfiction that is so perfect that it doesn't make sense in the story's world. Think a character that a fanfic author adds into something set in Harry Potter who is stronger magically than the characters the books built up to be the most powerful in the world and also is in a love triangle with Harry and Draco because the author has a crush on them. It isn't any female character that doesn't happen to experience defeat in a story.
Does Kaya's ability to kill ghosts and her succeeding at it twice make her unrealistic in a lore that includes people that can literally lithoform a world or kill giant interdimensional Cthulu monsters with a BIG FIREBALL spell? Is that something that is so completely out of the realm of realism in a lore where an ancient dragon teleports an army of magic mummies and repurposed gods to attack a city and gets defeated?
No, I don't think it is so unrealistic for a ghost assassin to kill ghosts that she doesn't fit in the lore. And therefore she's not a Mary Sue. And it's super silly to try to paint her as a Mary Sue while not applying the same standard to other characters.
If you wanna get triggered because the term "mary sue" is gendered... well get triggered i guess?
Nobody is triggered except the people getting laughably upset about Kaya. Explaining what a Mary Sue is and why it's a silly, inapplicable accusation is not getting triggered or getting mad or whatever. It's actually not having a problem with the character. That's like, the opposite of being triggered lol
Being successfull is not the requirement for being a mary sue. Being successfull without earning it and without facing any consequence/hardship is.
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem. What makes a character a Mary Sue is being so flawless that it doesn't make sense in the surrounding story. It's wish fulfillment on behalf of the author at the expense of continuity. That doesn't apply here.
For the record, I have criticized Gideon and Ulamog encounter the most, I only mention Kaya now due to the apprehension of which brand new character she's here to kill as soon as we're introduced to them. Wasting a character just to make a PW look like a badass (in general) and compromising a plane's environment/flavor in the process for such minimal, pointless gain is bad storytelling. Either PWs are pre-mending power, or they're not. The latter makes for better stories, if it's actually executed that way.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Lol, putting words in my mouth? Yeah, those are examples of dumb storytelling too. The killing of the eldrazi was atrocious too, but at least it had a little more planning behind.
Yeah and mary sue succeeding at everything because it's mary sue is still bad storytelling, no matter how much you try to twist it, generalize it or strawman it.
Lets summarize this trainwreck: Camp A dislikes Kaya because she is used as a tool by the writers to kill off non-planeswalker characters. Camp B likes Kaya because she killed some non-planeswalker characters off.
If gods, guild leaders, souls of planes, Eldrazi, leading archangels, etc. are pushovers, if these characters have nothing they need to learn or struggle against except other Planeswalkers, the environments are pointless, as is their ability to travel. Being the main character doesn't mean eclipsing all other characters and rendering the settings pointless.
When PWs overthrew the guild leaders I just rolled my eyes. I don't even see the point of having these worlds if it's the same story told on them all.
Well, I am willing to read the Kaldheim story and give it a chance. Perhaps I am wrong, and this will be different. But if PWs just come in like Mary Sues against gods and their enemies then wtf.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Excellent both-sidesing. You are truly the most enlightened of centrists.
Wait now I'm confused. Is she a bad person because of all her flaws or is she literally a flawless character because she's a Mary Sue? And don't you think it's a little silly to just use the term Mary Sue to describe a female character you don't like? Why not just call her a Karen too if these words have lost all meaning?
Listen guys. We can recognize that you keep saying that Kaya is a bad character and the reasons you guys can list off as to why you don't like her but it's pretty inconsistent when all these other poorly-written characters get a pass and don't get entire threads full of every criticism you all can think of no matter how contradictory or inapplicable. What makes Kaya so uniquely disdained? Because a lot of the criticisms brought up apply to many, many other characters in Magic's lore. A Mary Sue? Jace is more of a Mary Sue. Many other planeswalkers are more of a Mary Sue than Kaya, who is just one of many planeswalkers who have been solely successful up to this point with our very limited exposure to her.
There's a post up above that lists every action Kaya has taken in Magic as some kind of proof that she's an evil character with no redeemable qualities. And even if you twist every instance of seeing her in the storyline in the most uncharitable way then you come to the conclusion that sure, maybe she's a bad person. But that's not unique to her either. Ral Zarek did some bad things. Heliod did some bad things. Vraska did some bad things. Chainer did some bad things. Braids did some bad things. Kamahl did some bad things. Why aren't we seeing threads full of posts twisting every appearance they've made throughout the storylines, trying to turn them into Satan times a million like we see with Kaya?
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist
I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)
capitalist noun
Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
industrial capitalists
broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
2: a person who favors capitalism
Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.
Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.
The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.
In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Not the same argument. Nice try.
Edit:
lemme see here if I can get a good photo
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Here you are!
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Two indeed can play but I wish for all to examine the evidence. Did Tiro's initial reaction to seeing Jace in the packaging reflect a frustration that planeswalkers were too prominent in the game and overshadowing planebound creatures?
Jace or Kiora, it doesn't matter. You have one standard for the kinds of planeswalkers that you like and that you enjoy seeing in the game, and an altogether different standard for those planeswalkers that you don't care about.
One doesn't have to be an intentional and raging misogynist or racist to enable, or normalize, either systemic racism or sexism.
Intent doesn't matter, but having two clearly different standards or expectations for the kinds of characters that one likes, or doesn't like does actually matter quite a bit.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards that are detrimental to women and People of Colour.
We as a MtG community have to change.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".
Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
If anything, I responded to criticism of Kaya specifically by generally applying that criticism to how WOTC authors PW characters in general, instead. I didn't pin all the blame on her. It's always been about the writing of these characters, not gender or race, even if CNN tells you it always is.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
She is a mary sue because she is a mary sue. She can solve any problem with her special power and come out unscathed.
In the game mechanic is extremely easy to exile a spirit, but in the lore is a power that almost no one has.
Except Kaya! Enter the miracolous power she received from birth and that she can can easily use without any training/character development/whatever. And no, that power is not also ghost-killing, is also planeswalking!
And yeah, that can be said for many neowalkers and i say that about them too, don't worry.
Returning to Kaya, she go to a plane, kill and extremely old and powerful being with a knife, get some money and get out.
Oh yeah, let's add the fact that her power somehow let her bypass the fact non-walker can't do planar travels! That will totally make her a good written character!
... i don't get why i should like her. Is that because she helped a tyrant like Marchesa get in power? Is that because she helped Bolas with his plan? Is that because she got some money while doing so?
There are plenty of neowalkers i dislike and that i'm glad are not the face of this block. In the end Kaya isn't even one of worse, it just striked me how much some people had to do mental gymnastic to defend what is a mediocre written character, at best.
If you want to make it about racism, do it. Honestly i don't care about some strangers on the internet insulting me because i dislike their favourite avengers wannabe. I know who i am as a person, i know for who i voted and i know that being antiracism doesn't mean like the black character no matter what.
In the end i just think that "ghost-killer mercenary get paid to kill some old spirits" doesn't make a good story for a norse block, no matter the skin color of the ghost-killer mercenary. Maybe Kaya will do something different this time, but let's be honest she's a one trick pony.
If you really want a noncaucasian woman as the face of Kaldheim, idk probably Huatli or Samut could have been better. Huatli could learn poetry about Kaldheim's heroes and become a skald or Samut could have done... idk warrior stuff.
Honestly given the utter... mess that is most people trying to defend attacking Kaya while being hypocritical I'll probably just ignore it and reply to this.
1. Kaya doesn't really seem to favor capitalism though either. I'm not even sure any of the Planes we have been on run under Capitalism, maybe Vryn as it seems like maybe it has a modernish analog.
2. I'm... not sure in what way her flavor text indicates a desire to own capital, which is the only real thing capitalism has specifically for it as opposed to any other transaction based system.
3. I'll grant perhaps I am including corporations and not just capitalism in a vacuum with this, but at this stage it is nigh impossible to separate the two. There isn't a Capitalist America (or other country) that isn't impacted by corporations, and those absolutely do advocate for putting profit as high as they can get away with, which isn't a trait I've observed in Kaya.
4. Fair trade is absolutely incompatible though with Capitalism. By owning capital you are by necessity not engaging in fair trade with the workers. It isn't a 1:1 transaction where the scales are balanced on both sides.
5. We do seem to be in agreement on Kaya and the bizarre critique of her certainly. I just find it rather baffling. People complain about her being an assassin, except that people whined that Garruk did not kill enough named characters. People say they only care about her because she's killing off fan favorites, but... no one liked Brago or the Obzedat for their own sake as near as I can tell. Like, mechanically sure, but as characters? Kaya is too powerful, except that people levy that on Kaya specifically instead of walkers in general, all the while ignoring the fact she has a specific "anti-ghost" set up. Anti-ghost Assassin is going to be pretty good at killing arrogant ghosts who don't expect anyone can kill them, especially when, again, they receive support from others. Kaya is too influential, except that the only actions she has taken have been at the behest of others, which is also somehow a bad thing. It's just pretty ridiculous all around. She's greedy, except she does countless things that indicate money is not the primary factor. Wanting to be paid fairly for a service does not mean you're in it only for the money. So on and so forth. All the while complaining about her being not fleshed out enough (yet they somehow can come up with pages of stuff to complain about) and not wanting to let her get more attention to actually get more fleshed out, because... they're upset that she may kill someone who has no story relevance.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Professor X is the only one who can stop Magneto with his helmet off. Oh I guess he's a Mary Sue because he has a special power and it saves the day.
King Arthur is the only one who can pull the sword from the stone and lead the people to victory. He must be a Mary Sue too.
Luke Skywalker becomes super strong and can basically do no wrong in the original trilogy. Mary Sue.
James Bond might as well be named Double Oh Sue because he's a big old Mary Sue.
Michael Jordan in Space Jam? More like Mary Sue Jordan.
Hercules? I think you mean Suecules.
Bruce Willis in Die Hard? Mary Sue. Only special boy Bruce Willis can beat the terrorists because special boy Bruce Willis is just so much better than other cops or the FBI.
If you guys actually applied this evaluation of characters consistently, it would be different. But you don't. And I don't mean retroactively trying to apply the same standard to other characters to appear unbiased. When you look at what people spend their time complaining about you can start to tell where their biases and priorities lie and what they find important by comparing it to what they don't spend the same amount of time and energy to complain about.
If someone truly thinks that there isn't something weirdly different about the criticism of this poorly written character compared to the criticisms of other poorly written characters then can someone point me to the threadfuls of angry "Vraska bad" posts? How about the "Kamahl is Mary Sue and I no like" threads? Or "Why Ajani successful? He no earn" after he used his special unique power to beat Nicol Bolas single-handedly. There are countless characters that are poorly developed, have some niche ability and rarely if ever fail. And yet here we are. Kaya has the unique ability to throw a few of you into a tizzy. I guess we can add that ability to the Mary Sue column since it's another powerful ability only she has.
Everybody in this thread needs to step away from the computer a bit and relax. This ***** is not important at all.
You can't even tell the difference between a good written character and a bad one. Being successfull is not the requirement for being a mary sue. Being successfull without earning it and without facing any consequence/hardship is. A description that fits Kaya and not many characters you listed.
If you wanna get triggered because the term "mary sue" is gendered... well get triggered i guess? The term started after a female character called mary sue, it's not random.
If you ask me, a male character can totally be a mary sue. Many male characters from action movies can be considered mary sues. But those kind of movies have *****ty writing and everyone knows it. If we are helding what is supposed to be a fantasy story on the same standard as Rambo or Fast&Furious... well maybe that's already a sign that fantasy story is *****.
As i said before "ghost-assassin is hired to kill some spirits" is a *****ty recipe for a norse block. I of course can't know what will happen on Kaldheim, but if it will be something like Kaya killing spirits of Valhalla because spirits are "unnatural", it will be a *****ty story.
That's the point. People aren't even using the term correctly. If we go by the definition other posters are using then these characters are more of a problem than what they're complaining about. None of these characters are Mary Sues but by the standard they try to paint Kaya as one they would have to doubly do so for this list.
A Mary Sue is a self-insert character, often in a fanfiction that is so perfect that it doesn't make sense in the story's world. Think a character that a fanfic author adds into something set in Harry Potter who is stronger magically than the characters the books built up to be the most powerful in the world and also is in a love triangle with Harry and Draco because the author has a crush on them. It isn't any female character that doesn't happen to experience defeat in a story.
Does Kaya's ability to kill ghosts and her succeeding at it twice make her unrealistic in a lore that includes people that can literally lithoform a world or kill giant interdimensional Cthulu monsters with a BIG FIREBALL spell? Is that something that is so completely out of the realm of realism in a lore where an ancient dragon teleports an army of magic mummies and repurposed gods to attack a city and gets defeated?
No, I don't think it is so unrealistic for a ghost assassin to kill ghosts that she doesn't fit in the lore. And therefore she's not a Mary Sue. And it's super silly to try to paint her as a Mary Sue while not applying the same standard to other characters.
Nobody is triggered except the people getting laughably upset about Kaya. Explaining what a Mary Sue is and why it's a silly, inapplicable accusation is not getting triggered or getting mad or whatever. It's actually not having a problem with the character. That's like, the opposite of being triggered lol
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem. What makes a character a Mary Sue is being so flawless that it doesn't make sense in the surrounding story. It's wish fulfillment on behalf of the author at the expense of continuity. That doesn't apply here.