Presuming you meant morally and not mortally, I would argue Tamiyo’s strict no interference policy is morally unsound. But the point isn’t so much about morality as it is about removing characters from the story. As I said though it’s not like we didn’t have people complaining when it came to Garruk or the War, at least two examples off the top of my head, so if it is an issue for Kaya you’re left with two outcomes. One, it’s hardly universal that readers are against named character deaths. Or two, it’s an issue with Kaya specifically, at which point we are in really bad territory.
And agree to disagree, I personally find it an interesting way to get around it that fits. Ghost walker takes over bodies and moves them is hardly any worse than Wrenn.
And agree to disagree, I personally find it an interesting way to get around it that fits. Ghost walker takes over bodies and moves them is hardly any worse than Wrenn.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of "Six" that that was the sixth one Wrenn bonded with - partly because Wrenn has to leave behind their bond when planeswalking? And Kaya on the other hand found a way to bring a mortal with her by bonding. If anything, those two examples stand in opposition to one another.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, because I haven't read any deep lore all too recently.
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Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
Just double checking but I didn’t see anything about her getting a new tree per plane. She does eventually get a new one but why doesn’t seem to be answered.
And agree to disagree, I personally find it an interesting way to get around it that fits. Ghost walker takes over bodies and moves them is hardly any worse than Wrenn.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of "Six" that that was the sixth one Wrenn bonded with - partly because Wrenn has to leave behind their bond when planeswalking? And Kaya on the other hand found a way to bring a mortal with her by bonding. If anything, those two examples stand in opposition to one another.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, because I haven't read any deep lore all too recently.
We didn't get much lore on them at all, just Maro and a few other answering questions and just looking at her card. All that is know is Wrenn was made to give the non-human walkers fans a character, she is a dryad who can bond with tree folk hosts, she doesn't care to name her hosts and just numbers them and seemly can take the tree folk host with her between planes while bonded, is alive in the present day* and have a form of fire magic. All the rest is unknown.
*similar to Aminatou her timeline is likely in limbo to be able to line up with when/if we see her more.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
We also have nor idea as to how WotC intends to use the negative feedback from the War of the Spark novels.
We have one book where Kaya demonstrates this possession power, and to be fair, I don't think the fact that Kaya has this ability is really the issue. The issue was that WotC was beginning to introduce more exceptions to planeswalker 'rules' than cases that adhered to them, and Kaya's ability appeared to have been a simple plot device to allow the author to transport a character he liked (Rat) to another plane.
We have no idea how cannon WotC will treat Forsaken.
Ya, Nazi loves Norse stuff and have been trying to "adopt it" like they did the swastika. Met a gal in college who was a Norse Pagan and she had some pretty cool metallic/bismith Norse rune tattoo that she was really considering get rid of since she had been getting accused of being a Nazi and she was afraid of them being deemed a hate symbol soon.
Er... I have never heard anyone really utter praise for the Obzedat. Tesya? Sure. Ancient ghost bankers? Not so much. That people suddenly seem to care because she killed them reseda honestly suspicious.
That been my though for a while. Last I check most people were loving the idea of Teysa getting rid of them...which she did.
I've been an Orzhov player and fan for as long as I've been an active MtG player and I have shed zero metaphorical tears at the Obzedat's true death.
(I remember trying to play Dimir as a kid and while I innately understood the power of BlackB, the colour Blue U was far too tricksy for me)
What's frustrating as an Orzhov player and fan is that WB rarely gets to have likeable characters and factions. Sure, Sorin is much beloved, but besides him we are left mostly with characters that pursue B goals with W means.
Kaya is refreshing because she's not only a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero, but also a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero who does in fact occasionally act on behalf of some greater sense of justice or good.
If you were to compare how Kaya has been written with that of her targets, Kaya is a more complex and likable character by far. I admit that this is just my subjective opinion, but like, what narrational role did the Obzedat or Brago really serve?
While I don't wish for the Orzhov guild to realistically collapse should all its debtors be immediately and wholly forgiven, a reformed Orzhov Guild is everything I could have wanted for my guild.
Settings and characters have to change. While I understand that people may be upset when their particular favorite characters and worlds are no longer what they had imagined them to formerly be, still, without setting changes and character growth, all we'd be left with is the 'same old, same old'.
I’m... kind of confused how Kaya is a “capitalist”, if anything my reading of her is she’s driven by much more personal stakes than how much money she can get. If that was all she wanted she would just accept being the leader of the Orzhov and not really care about keeping the ghosts as slaves.
I’m... kind of confused how Kaya is a “capitalist”, if anything my reading of her is she’s driven by much more personal stakes than how much money she can get. If that was all she wanted she would just accept being the leader of the Orzhov and not really care about keeping the ghosts as slaves.
I hear ya, the reason why I consider her capitalist is from her bio on the mothership:
"Kaya is a firm believer that life is for the living. The living should make the most of their lives and pursue what they want while they've still got time, and find their own peace before death. If you die with unfinished business, well, that's probably your fault. And if it's not...perhaps she could help you...for a price."
You're not wrong in saying that she's driven by personal stakes, but I think we might have different interpretations of what it means to be a capitalist. In most of her work, she is (for the most part) very contractional, expecting a high fee for services that, while not as commonly demanded as other more mundane forms of labour, is nevertheless highly sought after by those with 'spiritual' problems *chuckle*. Capitalists do not necessarily have the accumulation of greater and greater wealth as their primary objective, but rather capitalists accept and advocate the utility of market-based systems and principles to distribute both wealth and capital.
There are of course many different forms of capitalism and different kinds of capitalists. Like the terms "socialist" and "socialism", there exists a considerable amount of scholarly debate over how best to define and categorize all the different strands within, between and beyond these influential meta-ideas, and the infighting among these scholarly communities are often fiercer within an 'ism' than between 'isms'.
Everything I've read on Kaya suggests to me that she is nominally a capitalist, but you can see in these same works the tensions the character feels when she sees systems such as that of the Orzhov syndicate take what seems to be a few good ideas in principle, but bend and twist them into something quite terrible, terrible for individuals and terrible for the political system at large. All of which demonstrates the tension between Black and White and within BW characters.
I could be off my rocker here and I completely understand if folx aren't convinced. I'm a Poli Sci grad student and I sometimes get carried away. I could talk with my Uni mates for hours on the subject.
The world is grey and there are costs and benefits within any 'ism' or its variants.
Edit: adding a link to Kaya's wiki page just for fun and so that her critics may better come to appreciate the depth to her character.
Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.
For the record I'm annoyed by how the majority of PWs are written, not just Kaya. I don't like them being OP in all the stories, undermining the mending, risks and consequences. Not asking for GOT-level purging of the cast or anything, just moderation and stakes. At the very least planar overlords should be respected. People on Ravnica don't spend generations in debt to the Obzedat or fearing their wrath when a PW can come in and one-shot them easily. It cheapens the story. Not directly related but Innistrad doesn't interest me anymore without Avacyn as a contrast. Legendary creatures may not be the face of the brand but losing them costs a plane its identity in part, so they shouldn't just be disposal in place of PWs.
A person with a highly specialized skill set tailor made to doing that using powers from an entire different plane of reality manages to kill them after launching an all out war on them with the help of people in the guild betraying them and people outside fighting.
Seriously, if you think that some things should be utterly unstoppable and nothing can handle them you’re just setting up a bunch of stagnant planes. Nothing can change because the godhead hasn’t decided it can yet, hope and pray it does something.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
And you sure are acting like it’s a Kaya specific issue, only changing your tune when called out. Just saying that you’re acting like Kaya is somehow worse than the rest.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?
Something tells me you must not like almost any form of fiction, as “guy more powerful than protagonist still loses” is hardly original to Magic, nor is “protagonist has a unique power”.
It also, again, wasn’t a solo effort. If the only person who can fight the Obzedat are two other people on Ravnica that’s a pretty silly setup.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?
You're acting like this scenario is unique to Kaya and the Obzedat as opposed to the poor writing found all throughout the Magic storyline. I mean wasn't that kind of what happened when they wrapped up Battle for Zendikar block? A group of tweens managed to hold hands and then use a BIG FIREBALL to beat imperceptible extraplanar entities that destroy worlds? Then there's Innistrad 2. Was Lili and her high school friends holding off Emrakul with the chain veil until the eldrazi decided to jump in the moon for no reason better writing? Vraska killed a guild leader no problem and without much pomp and circumstance but no one really complains about that. Why is it only Kaya's dumb story you guys have a problem with? There's plenty of dumb stories to whinge about but this minor point in the last Ravnica block sure is getting an undue amount of focus.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?
You're acting like this scenario is unique to Kaya and the Obzedat as opposed to the poor writing found all throughout the Magic storyline. I mean wasn't that kind of what happened when they wrapped up Battle for Zendikar block? A group of tweens managed to hold hands and then use a BIG FIREBALL to beat imperceptible extraplanar entities that destroy worlds? Then there's Innistrad 2. Was Lili and her high school friends holding off Emrakul with the chain veil until the eldrazi decided to jump in the moon for no reason better writing? Vraska killed a guild leader no problem and without much pomp and circumstance but no one really complains about that. Why is it only Kaya's dumb story you guys have a problem with? There's plenty of dumb stories to whinge about but this minor point in the last Ravnica block sure is getting an undue amount of focus.
Ok, I won't argue that the MtG storyline can be quite lackluster from time to time, but it was so from its inception and always moved wildly from really great to really dumb almost constantly. Saying that this is a new trend and constantly misinterpreting and misremembering the current storyline when it suits ones needs (and ignoring previous missteps as well as recent great storylines because "it was better before Planeswalkers/the Gatewatch became the focus" has to be hammered home) is frankly a bit dishonest.
I didn't like the BfZ storyline either, but it wasn't at all just "hey, let's hold hands and cast giant fireball". The whole thing was possible because of multiple, previously established facts (Nissa's deep connection to Zendikar, the potency of its mana, the hedron network, Ugin's knowledge etc.). Whether you liked the resolution is another story, but it wasn't a deus ex machina, nor was it preposterous.
Even worse is trying to reduce Eldritch Moon in a similar way, because a) Liliana barely held back Emrakul at all, basically just for a one or two minutes at best by using everything she got from the Chain Veil, while the others succumbed to the titan's influence almost immediately and b) Emrakul did give a pretty good, if cryptic reason for imprisoning herself, Innistrad wasn't at a stage in its development as a plane yet for what her purpose is. The whole sequence between her and Jace was pretty great writing in my opinion and did show how alien the Eldrazi actually are.
But to get back to Kaya, I don't have problems with her killing the Obzedat at all. It was established as far back as the Guildpact novel that Teysa was simply waiting for a way to get rid of them and there simply was none until now. The one thing planeswalkers have that gives them an edge over plane-bound entities nowadays is that they have knowledge and are trained in magical systems which simply don't exist on some of the worlds they visit and become an outside context problem there fast. This was aknowledged by Kruphix and Heliod (who killed Elspeth for it) and used by many planeswalkers in modern stories (most impressively by Nissa using her leyline knowledge and a vision of Bolas to make a small change in Kefnet's nature). This always seemed logical to me, and while yes, sometimes the focus is too much on planeswalkers right now, I wouldn't call it bad writing at all. Looking forward to her on Kaldheim, and perhaps we should wait and see what she is doing there before judging it.
A person with a highly specialized skill set tailor made to doing that using powers from an entire different plane of reality manages to kill them after launching an all out war on them with the help of people in the guild betraying them and people outside fighting.
And while not said, in all likely hood Bolas was helping out in someway as well.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
A person with a highly specialized skill set tailor made to doing that using powers from an entire different plane of reality manages to kill them after launching an all out war on them with the help of people in the guild betraying them and people outside fighting.
And while not said, in all likely hood Bolas was helping out in someway as well.
Oh definitely. He put her up to it, if we can trust Bolas to be competent then I don’t see why someone serving as his right hand in that event is so implausible.
Again, all the fixation on Kaya just makes it seem like somehow Kaya is uniquely bad, at which point when the bulk of the Planeswalker cast does ridiculous things you have to ask what about Kaya in particular is different. Which leaves a couple really obvious ones and... not much else to hear her critics say anything. There isn’t anything wrong with Kaya being the face as opposed to anyone else.
Kaya's job is an assassin of ghosts who is only in it for the money and doesn't care about the consequences her actions have.
Kaya shows up on Kaldheim that is gonna have ghosts and those who rule over these ghosts.
Kaya's benefactor is probably another shady person, probably another would-be ruler.
Kaya gonna either murder everyone from Hel/Valhalla/both, or just murder the rulers of those respective realms and free the souls.
Kaya is praised, or hated, or both by the denizens of Kaldheim.
Kaya will likely destabilize the fundamental flow of the world of Kaldheim just like she did on Fiora and Ravnica respectively.
Kaya then either leaves of her own accord or is kicked out like she was on Ravnica.
Kaya will likely learn nothing from her visit aside from where she can get her next deposit of cash for murdering a ghost.
Kaya then arrives on a new plane to restart the process over again proving she is only a tool for the writers to kill off characters.
Kaya is most notable for:
Letting the ghost of a mother kill her contractor since the contractor killed his mother in life.
Killing King Brago and helping the dictator Marchesa take power.
Killing the Obzedat without the judical law of the guildpact and Azorious applying.
Seizing control of the Orzhova guild as an agent of the megalomaniac dictator Nicol Bolas and their invasion plan.
Nearly forcing the complete liquidation of the Orzhov guild, the cornerstone to all of Ravnica's banking and finances, through naive charitable action.
When tasked with the assassination of Liliana Vess, a former agent of Nicol Bolas who helped lead the army of eternals, Kaya spared Liliana instead and even wanted to redeem her despite being a war criminal (1).
Just because Liliana Vess tried to command her forces to avoid spreading out as much as possible to avoid going after civilians does not mean she is exempt from the actions and atrocities her troops still did. Civilians and non-combatants that died at the hands of eternals are still her responsibility. She is also not exempt for she has knowledge from reports due to her necromantic control over her troops and thus knows of their actions committed. Civilians and non-combatants largely apply to the planeswalkers that responded to the beacon, arrived, and were unceremoniously killed. However regular and sparkless citizens of Ravnica also apply including those of the gateless.
And not once did I mention that Kaya's ethnicity as a point of contention.
And none of those are reasonable issues. First one she let justice take its course, not about killing without caring about consequences. If she didn’t care about the outcome and only wanted money she could even have tried to the guy. She killed an immortal dictator, which is not a good thing to have around. And then... went on to go kill another immortal dictator council. She was forced into control of it by Bolas, that’s on him. That she tried to free the ghosts shows, again, isn’t only in it for the money. Your points in general are shoddy and inconsistent. You call her money hungry but then point out actions that have zero financial benefit. And you’re attributing to her something that’s true of almost all walkers. They destabilize things by their actions, they change the status quo. If Kaya was replaced with almost any other walker nothing changes in those regards. And the rare times they aren’t causing change they’re usually responding to change caused by some other interplanar threat.
To say nothing of the fact that Magic has jag plane shaping events for ages. That’s just how Magic is. I’m not sure when the last set was without major upheaval.
In short you’re just doing what I said, singling out Kaya and being inconsistent while doing so.
Kaya's job is an assassin of ghosts who is only in it for the money and doesn't care about the consequences her actions have.
Kaya shows up on Kaldheim that is gonna have ghosts and those who rule over these ghosts.
Kaya's benefactor is probably another shady person, probably another would-be ruler.
Kaya gonna either murder everyone from Hel/Valhalla/both, or just murder the rulers of those respective realms and free the souls.
Kaya is praised, or hated, or both by the denizens of Kaldheim.
Kaya will likely destabilize the fundamental flow of the world of Kaldheim just like she did on Fiora and Ravnica respectively.
Kaya then either leaves of her own accord or is kicked out like she was on Ravnica.
Kaya will likely learn nothing from her visit aside from where she can get her next deposit of cash for murdering a ghost.
Kaya then arrives on a new plane to restart the process over again proving she is only a tool for the writers to kill off characters.
Kaya is most notable for:
Letting the ghost of a mother kill her contractor since the contractor killed his mother in life.
Killing King Brago and helping the dictator Marchesa take power.
Killing the Obzedat without the judical law of the guildpact and Azorious applying.
Seizing control of the Orzhova guild as an agent of the megalomaniac dictator Nicol Bolas and their invasion plan.
Nearly forcing the complete liquidation of the Orzhov guild, the cornerstone to all of Ravnica's banking and finances, through naive charitable action.
When tasked with the assassination of Liliana Vess, a former agent of Nicol Bolas who helped lead the army of eternals, Kaya spared Liliana instead and even wanted to redeem her despite being a war criminal (1).
Just because Liliana Vess tried to command her forces to avoid spreading out as much as possible to avoid going after civilians does not mean she is exempt from the actions and atrocities her troops still did. Civilians and non-combatants that died at the hands of eternals are still her responsibility. She is also not exempt for she has knowledge from reports due to her necromantic control over her troops and thus knows of their actions committed. Civilians and non-combatants largely apply to the planeswalkers that responded to the beacon, arrived, and were unceremoniously killed. However regular and sparkless citizens of Ravnica also apply including those of the gateless.
And not once did I mention that Kaya's ethnicity as a point of contention.
No, but you are accentuating the negative to the extreme here, using loaded language to make it seem like all of these things are bad and that she is a horrible person for doing so. Let me try to put them another way:
Kaya is most notable for:
Going back on a contract from an actual killer (remember, she herself doesn't actually assassinate living beings) and enacting her own sense of justice upon him without killing him herself.
Killing (and that's not even the right word) an immortal undead dictator who imposed his rule simply by the fact that he was able to no-sell the usual methods of relieving disliked tyrants from power on Fiora (Marchesa at least can be disposed of that way).
Killing (see above) a bunch of patriarchal, highly morally questionable undead people who see nothing bad in enslaving both the body and soul of others for their own benefit through contracts that poor people especially are basically forced to sign (if they are not property already once the Orzhov acquire a particular part of the land, just by virtue of living there) and were already hard at work to undermine the guildpact by circumventing it via their guildpact-free space.
Took on the responsibility of leading the guild afterwards in partnership with Teysa (who would have found an alternative method of desposing of the Obszedat sooner or later). Was also tricked into the position not knowing that the weight of these contracts would fall to her once the Obszedat was done for.
Finally released countless debtors who were forced into unfair contracts into their afterlife, freeing them from slavery, economic consequences be damned.
Saw that Liliana was earnest in her redemption effort and (considering that she usually doesn't kill living beings) choose to abstain from capital punishment, a pretty human and sympathetic gesture (not to mention that Liliana herself, while certainly guilty of horrible things, was definitely blackmailed by Bolas into leading the horde, you make it sound like she reveled in it).
If you don't like a character you can always spin all their actions into negative ones by reduction and slanted wording is what I'm trying to say here.
And none of those are reasonable issues. First one she let justice take its course, not about killing without caring about consequences.
being at best a vigilante who is acting outside of the law is not letting justice take its proper course. If she did care about if her kill would have consequence then she wouldn't have helped Marchesa seize power and she would have tried to work with Teysa to find a way to seize control away from the Obzedat.
If she didn’t care about the outcome and only wanted money she could even have tried to the guy. She killed an immortal dictator, which is not a good thing to have around. And then... went on to go kill another immortal dictator council.
First time she was paid, that was her only stake in killing King Brago whose reign was shortlived. Second time was to assist Nicol Bolas in not only killing in killing a corrupt ceo and its chairmen.
She was forced into control of it by Bolas, that’s on him. That she tried to free the ghosts shows, again, isn’t only in it for the money.
Again you state she does care about her actions but you demonstrate when given free will, she willingly almost cause the complete liquidation of a guild which was a reckless act.
Your points in general are shoddy and inconsistent.
Do I even need to address why this is just petty?
You call her money hungry but then point out actions that have zero financial benefit.
Short term benefit is not the same as longterm financal benefit. She cares about getting paid. She doesn't care about the longterm stability of a financial system.
And you’re attributing to her something that’s true of almost all walkers. They destabilize things by their actions, they change the status quo.
Meanwhile nonwalkers have changed the status quo such as on Kamigawa or on Lorwyn for a quick two easy examples.
If Kaya was replaced with almost any other walker nothing changes in those regards.
So your saying that planeswalkers are superfluous to the story if they are so interchangeable.
And the rare times they aren’t causing change they’re usually responding to change caused by some other interplanar threat.
The rare times they aren't causing change, they are reinforcing the status quo by stopping a threat that is attempting to change the status quo.
To say nothing of the fact that Magic has jag plane shaping events for ages.
Define a sharp plane shaping event.
But even th That’s just how Magic is. I’m not sure when the last set was without major upheaval.
Major upheaveals are showing their wear. There is only so many times the writers can threaten to end the world or change a major aspect of a world without it feeling forced for the sake of having stakes.
In short you’re just doing what I said, singling out Kaya and being inconsistent while doing so.
Still not as inconsistent as your ramble in which I rebuked each of your points.
No, but you are accentuating the negative to the extreme here, using loaded language to make it seem like all of these things are bad and that she is a horrible person for doing so.
The 'extreme' as you put it is her actions throughout the story. And based on your subsequent dialogue, its just as 'loaded' as you put it.
Let me try to put them another way:
Kaya is most notable for:
Going back on a contract from an actual killer (remember, she herself doesn't actually assassinate living beings) and enacting her own sense of justice upon him without killing him herself.
I will not contest that as that does not refute what was originally said.
Killing (and that's not even the right word) an immortal undead dictator who imposed his rule simply by the fact that he was able to no-sell the usual methods of relieving disliked tyrants from power on Fiora (Marchesa at least can be disposed of that way).
King Brago came back to life and resumed his reign to maintain stability. The inherit part you dislike is the fact that a good king overcame his first death, then resumed power. Then he is labelled a dictator because he just so happens to allow the actual villain Marchesa to take power.
Killing (see above) a bunch of patriarchal, highly morally questionable undead people who see nothing bad in enslaving both the body and soul of others for their own benefit through contracts that poor people especially are basically forced to sign (if they are not property already once the Orzhov acquire a particular part of the land, just by virtue of living there) and were already hard at work to undermine the guildpact by circumventing it via their guildpact-free space.
and this I will not contest as that is the Obzedat. Its how Obzedat was murdered that people take qualms with which seems to get drowned out in favor of just pointing out they were reprehensible.
Took on the responsibility of leading the guild afterwards in partnership with Teysa (who would have found an alternative method of desposing of the Obszedat sooner or later). Was also tricked into the position not knowing that the weight of these contracts would fall to her once the Obszedat was done for.
will not contest this point.
Finally released countless debtors who were forced into unfair contracts into their afterlife, freeing them from slavery, economic consequences be damned.
While in the process also almost forcing the liquidation of the guild which you casually left out.
Saw that Liliana was earnest in her redemption effort and (considering that she usually doesn't kill living beings) choose to abstain from capital punishmen a pretty human and sympathetic gesture (not to mention that Liliana herself, while certainly guilty of horrible things, was definitely blackmailed by Bolas into leading the horde, you make it sound like she reveled in it).
First of all what you just said in her not enacting capital punishment proves that she can't be trusted to even assassinate a target for the right reasons when the contractor comes from the governmental body that seeks to enact that capital punishment on a war criminal.
Secondly I never stated Liliana reveled in it, I stated that the actions of her troops falls on her as responsibility as a military commander. She is not exempt for what her troops had done as she had knowledge of what her troops had done or are about to do. Stating she is forced into the role does not prevent the fact that she still can control not only her own actions but those of her troops. Said actions are the atrocities and murders of civilians and non-combatants through the military might of an invading force. Liliana can be a conscientious objector if that helps you rationalize it, but she could not impose that onto her troops due to her own contractual obligations by her employer which means the actions of her troops are still her actions.
I have to admit I kinda agree with Tiro in principle. Not about Kaya specifically but about how planeswalkers are treated in the story.
Focusing on only one instance of planeswalker-environment interaction leads a bit to a distorted picture. In a vacuum planeswalkers being able to kill/overshadow/supplant native legendary creatures is fine. It's not a problem, but it happens again and again and again. If a certain pattern happens too often, it stops being a story event and starts being a way the narrative is approached by the authors. Even War of the Spark would have been fine, even though three of the guilds were usurped by extra-planar agents. In fact it would have served as a major contrast to the other stories and underline Nicol Bolas' influence. It could have served to enhance the story. Except stuff like this happens constantly. Even if the planeswalkers weren't necessarily the means to solve the story, like in Shadows over Innistrad, they still overshadowed everything and everyone else.
I think the main reason why I loved the Amonkhet storyline so much despite it being qualitatively kinda average was because for once the planeswalkers were more of a backdrop, only there to lead up to the next storyline, and the real drama was how the environment reacted to the plot.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Magic storytelling is best when it is environmental. It just doesn't lend itself well to character-centric storytelling, simply due to the game's own internal structure.
I understand why Magic does it. And the success seems to speak in their favour. But that does not make it a good approach to storytelling (which, fair, is only secondary to the game) and it also doesn't mean I have to like it.
The story stopped being as important when Wizards decided to stop doing block cycle novels after Eventide. Instead of a book per set in a 3-set block, it was a book per block, then for awhile no books. We just now live in a era where we might get a book per 1-set block.
1. All Planeswalkers are vigilantes just about. We literally had an entire block where every heroic Planeswalker was rebelling. Being a vigilante does not somehow mean that they are evil. And caring about consequences doesn't mean that you have to constantly avoid them, sometimes you accept them because it's in service to a better purpose. Like, you know, dethroning an immortal tyrant. Or a group of immortal tyrants.
2. I'm talking about when we were first introduced to her, where she let the mother avenge herself on her son. If she only cared about money she could have blackmailed him or any number of other options, or even simply just done her job and killed the ghost. She didn't, she let justice be done. As for the others with Brago he couldn't stick around, nor could the Obzedat.
3. Reckless is not the same as greedy though, which is how you tried to portray her. Yes, she clearly didn't realize what kind of impact that would cause. At the same time there is hardly any positive to be said about building an entire system and economy around slavery even after death, so I would say she was well within her right to do so. Again, if she was greedy she would have just kept the status quo. Your claim that all she cares about money holds zero weight.
4. You're welcome to call it petty, but your points are shoddy and inconsistent. At best you're trying to argue for the sake of it, at worst you legitimately don't like Kaya for the reasons insinuated and are trying to cover it up. Argue better before you start trying to throw out pithy quips. Your attempt at "rebuking" me did nothing at all.
5. Except again she doesn't do things for short term benefit. What possible short term benefit was there in freeing the ghosts? No one was asking for that. She did it because she felt it was wrong. Shockingly, most people would say slavery, especially after death, is a bad thing. I would bet Gideon would do the same thing in her position.
6. Nonwalkers are utterly irrelevant when the point is a comparison of planeswalker to other planeswalkers. I didn't once say "only Planeswalkers can cause change", what I said is that by their nature Planeswalkers almost inevitably cause change. The exceptions to that are... what, probably small enough to count on one hand. So it's not a Kaya problem.
7. What I am saying is that if you replaced Kaya with Chandra I can guarantee the plane of Kaldheim would still wind up destabilized. And so on and so forth with most Planeswalkers. If Kaya is the center of change (which isn't even a guarantee) it's not like any other Walker couldn't come in and still create a great amount of change.
8. What you said is not remotely different in any meaningful sense, trying to reword what I said and pass it off as a new point isn't going to fly here. Yes, Planeswalkers are at the center of planar conflict on either side of the conflict, that's how it is. Usually it's bringing about a great change, sometimes it's responding to another outsider trying to cause said change.
9. I don't need to define it, feel free to point to the last time we didn't have one. Outside of Zendikar just going back to normal (relatively speaking, and that's in response to the last time we went there being even more drastic than normal change wise) it has been a long while since we went to a block where relatively nothing major changed on the plane. And even that was still centered on the Roil, which would be a huge change to the plane if it went away.
10. Whether or not it is a good story trait is irrelevant to the point that it is a constant thing for Planeswalkers in general, not Kaya specifically. You can complain about WotC and how they approach story all you want, but pointing the fingers at Kaya and acting like she somehow is at fault is absurd.
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And agree to disagree, I personally find it an interesting way to get around it that fits. Ghost walker takes over bodies and moves them is hardly any worse than Wrenn.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of "Six" that that was the sixth one Wrenn bonded with - partly because Wrenn has to leave behind their bond when planeswalking? And Kaya on the other hand found a way to bring a mortal with her by bonding. If anything, those two examples stand in opposition to one another.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, because I haven't read any deep lore all too recently.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
We didn't get much lore on them at all, just Maro and a few other answering questions and just looking at her card. All that is know is Wrenn was made to give the non-human walkers fans a character, she is a dryad who can bond with tree folk hosts, she doesn't care to name her hosts and just numbers them and seemly can take the tree folk host with her between planes while bonded, is alive in the present day* and have a form of fire magic. All the rest is unknown.
*similar to Aminatou her timeline is likely in limbo to be able to line up with when/if we see her more.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
We have one book where Kaya demonstrates this possession power, and to be fair, I don't think the fact that Kaya has this ability is really the issue. The issue was that WotC was beginning to introduce more exceptions to planeswalker 'rules' than cases that adhered to them, and Kaya's ability appeared to have been a simple plot device to allow the author to transport a character he liked (Rat) to another plane.
We have no idea how cannon WotC will treat Forsaken.
I've been an Orzhov player and fan for as long as I've been an active MtG player and I have shed zero metaphorical tears at the Obzedat's true death.
(I remember trying to play Dimir as a kid and while I innately understood the power of BlackB, the colour Blue U was far too tricksy for me)
What's frustrating as an Orzhov player and fan is that WB rarely gets to have likeable characters and factions. Sure, Sorin is much beloved, but besides him we are left mostly with characters that pursue B goals with W means.
Kaya is refreshing because she's not only a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero, but also a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero who does in fact occasionally act on behalf of some greater sense of justice or good.
If you were to compare how Kaya has been written with that of her targets, Kaya is a more complex and likable character by far. I admit that this is just my subjective opinion, but like, what narrational role did the Obzedat or Brago really serve?
While I don't wish for the Orzhov guild to realistically collapse should all its debtors be immediately and wholly forgiven, a reformed Orzhov Guild is everything I could have wanted for my guild.
Settings and characters have to change. While I understand that people may be upset when their particular favorite characters and worlds are no longer what they had imagined them to formerly be, still, without setting changes and character growth, all we'd be left with is the 'same old, same old'.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I hear ya, the reason why I consider her capitalist is from her bio on the mothership:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/kaya-ghost-assassin
You're not wrong in saying that she's driven by personal stakes, but I think we might have different interpretations of what it means to be a capitalist. In most of her work, she is (for the most part) very contractional, expecting a high fee for services that, while not as commonly demanded as other more mundane forms of labour, is nevertheless highly sought after by those with 'spiritual' problems *chuckle*. Capitalists do not necessarily have the accumulation of greater and greater wealth as their primary objective, but rather capitalists accept and advocate the utility of market-based systems and principles to distribute both wealth and capital.
There are of course many different forms of capitalism and different kinds of capitalists. Like the terms "socialist" and "socialism", there exists a considerable amount of scholarly debate over how best to define and categorize all the different strands within, between and beyond these influential meta-ideas, and the infighting among these scholarly communities are often fiercer within an 'ism' than between 'isms'.
Everything I've read on Kaya suggests to me that she is nominally a capitalist, but you can see in these same works the tensions the character feels when she sees systems such as that of the Orzhov syndicate take what seems to be a few good ideas in principle, but bend and twist them into something quite terrible, terrible for individuals and terrible for the political system at large. All of which demonstrates the tension between Black and White and within BW characters.
I could be off my rocker here and I completely understand if folx aren't convinced. I'm a Poli Sci grad student and I sometimes get carried away. I could talk with my Uni mates for hours on the subject.
The world is grey and there are costs and benefits within any 'ism' or its variants.
Edit: adding a link to Kaya's wiki page just for fun and so that her critics may better come to appreciate the depth to her character.
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Kaya
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Seriously, if you think that some things should be utterly unstoppable and nothing can handle them you’re just setting up a bunch of stagnant planes. Nothing can change because the godhead hasn’t decided it can yet, hope and pray it does something.
In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.
And you sure are acting like it’s a Kaya specific issue, only changing your tune when called out. Just saying that you’re acting like Kaya is somehow worse than the rest.
Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?
Something tells me you must not like almost any form of fiction, as “guy more powerful than protagonist still loses” is hardly original to Magic, nor is “protagonist has a unique power”.
It also, again, wasn’t a solo effort. If the only person who can fight the Obzedat are two other people on Ravnica that’s a pretty silly setup.
You're acting like this scenario is unique to Kaya and the Obzedat as opposed to the poor writing found all throughout the Magic storyline. I mean wasn't that kind of what happened when they wrapped up Battle for Zendikar block? A group of tweens managed to hold hands and then use a BIG FIREBALL to beat imperceptible extraplanar entities that destroy worlds? Then there's Innistrad 2. Was Lili and her high school friends holding off Emrakul with the chain veil until the eldrazi decided to jump in the moon for no reason better writing? Vraska killed a guild leader no problem and without much pomp and circumstance but no one really complains about that. Why is it only Kaya's dumb story you guys have a problem with? There's plenty of dumb stories to whinge about but this minor point in the last Ravnica block sure is getting an undue amount of focus.
Ok, I won't argue that the MtG storyline can be quite lackluster from time to time, but it was so from its inception and always moved wildly from really great to really dumb almost constantly. Saying that this is a new trend and constantly misinterpreting and misremembering the current storyline when it suits ones needs (and ignoring previous missteps as well as recent great storylines because "it was better before Planeswalkers/the Gatewatch became the focus" has to be hammered home) is frankly a bit dishonest.
I didn't like the BfZ storyline either, but it wasn't at all just "hey, let's hold hands and cast giant fireball". The whole thing was possible because of multiple, previously established facts (Nissa's deep connection to Zendikar, the potency of its mana, the hedron network, Ugin's knowledge etc.). Whether you liked the resolution is another story, but it wasn't a deus ex machina, nor was it preposterous.
Even worse is trying to reduce Eldritch Moon in a similar way, because a) Liliana barely held back Emrakul at all, basically just for a one or two minutes at best by using everything she got from the Chain Veil, while the others succumbed to the titan's influence almost immediately and b) Emrakul did give a pretty good, if cryptic reason for imprisoning herself, Innistrad wasn't at a stage in its development as a plane yet for what her purpose is. The whole sequence between her and Jace was pretty great writing in my opinion and did show how alien the Eldrazi actually are.
But to get back to Kaya, I don't have problems with her killing the Obzedat at all. It was established as far back as the Guildpact novel that Teysa was simply waiting for a way to get rid of them and there simply was none until now. The one thing planeswalkers have that gives them an edge over plane-bound entities nowadays is that they have knowledge and are trained in magical systems which simply don't exist on some of the worlds they visit and become an outside context problem there fast. This was aknowledged by Kruphix and Heliod (who killed Elspeth for it) and used by many planeswalkers in modern stories (most impressively by Nissa using her leyline knowledge and a vision of Bolas to make a small change in Kefnet's nature). This always seemed logical to me, and while yes, sometimes the focus is too much on planeswalkers right now, I wouldn't call it bad writing at all. Looking forward to her on Kaldheim, and perhaps we should wait and see what she is doing there before judging it.
And while not said, in all likely hood Bolas was helping out in someway as well.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Oh definitely. He put her up to it, if we can trust Bolas to be competent then I don’t see why someone serving as his right hand in that event is so implausible.
Again, all the fixation on Kaya just makes it seem like somehow Kaya is uniquely bad, at which point when the bulk of the Planeswalker cast does ridiculous things you have to ask what about Kaya in particular is different. Which leaves a couple really obvious ones and... not much else to hear her critics say anything. There isn’t anything wrong with Kaya being the face as opposed to anyone else.
Kaya shows up on Kaldheim that is gonna have ghosts and those who rule over these ghosts.
Kaya's benefactor is probably another shady person, probably another would-be ruler.
Kaya gonna either murder everyone from Hel/Valhalla/both, or just murder the rulers of those respective realms and free the souls.
Kaya is praised, or hated, or both by the denizens of Kaldheim.
Kaya will likely destabilize the fundamental flow of the world of Kaldheim just like she did on Fiora and Ravnica respectively.
Kaya then either leaves of her own accord or is kicked out like she was on Ravnica.
Kaya will likely learn nothing from her visit aside from where she can get her next deposit of cash for murdering a ghost.
Kaya then arrives on a new plane to restart the process over again proving she is only a tool for the writers to kill off characters.
Kaya is most notable for:
Letting the ghost of a mother kill her contractor since the contractor killed his mother in life.
Killing King Brago and helping the dictator Marchesa take power.
Killing the Obzedat without the judical law of the guildpact and Azorious applying.
Seizing control of the Orzhova guild as an agent of the megalomaniac dictator Nicol Bolas and their invasion plan.
Nearly forcing the complete liquidation of the Orzhov guild, the cornerstone to all of Ravnica's banking and finances, through naive charitable action.
When tasked with the assassination of Liliana Vess, a former agent of Nicol Bolas who helped lead the army of eternals, Kaya spared Liliana instead and even wanted to redeem her despite being a war criminal (1).
And not once did I mention that Kaya's ethnicity as a point of contention.
To say nothing of the fact that Magic has jag plane shaping events for ages. That’s just how Magic is. I’m not sure when the last set was without major upheaval.
In short you’re just doing what I said, singling out Kaya and being inconsistent while doing so.
No, but you are accentuating the negative to the extreme here, using loaded language to make it seem like all of these things are bad and that she is a horrible person for doing so. Let me try to put them another way:
Kaya is most notable for:
Going back on a contract from an actual killer (remember, she herself doesn't actually assassinate living beings) and enacting her own sense of justice upon him without killing him herself.
Killing (and that's not even the right word) an immortal undead dictator who imposed his rule simply by the fact that he was able to no-sell the usual methods of relieving disliked tyrants from power on Fiora (Marchesa at least can be disposed of that way).
Killing (see above) a bunch of patriarchal, highly morally questionable undead people who see nothing bad in enslaving both the body and soul of others for their own benefit through contracts that poor people especially are basically forced to sign (if they are not property already once the Orzhov acquire a particular part of the land, just by virtue of living there) and were already hard at work to undermine the guildpact by circumventing it via their guildpact-free space.
Took on the responsibility of leading the guild afterwards in partnership with Teysa (who would have found an alternative method of desposing of the Obszedat sooner or later). Was also tricked into the position not knowing that the weight of these contracts would fall to her once the Obszedat was done for.
Finally released countless debtors who were forced into unfair contracts into their afterlife, freeing them from slavery, economic consequences be damned.
Saw that Liliana was earnest in her redemption effort and (considering that she usually doesn't kill living beings) choose to abstain from capital punishment, a pretty human and sympathetic gesture (not to mention that Liliana herself, while certainly guilty of horrible things, was definitely blackmailed by Bolas into leading the horde, you make it sound like she reveled in it).
If you don't like a character you can always spin all their actions into negative ones by reduction and slanted wording is what I'm trying to say here.
First time she was paid, that was her only stake in killing King Brago whose reign was shortlived. Second time was to assist Nicol Bolas in not only killing in killing a corrupt ceo and its chairmen.
Again you state she does care about her actions but you demonstrate when given free will, she willingly almost cause the complete liquidation of a guild which was a reckless act.
Do I even need to address why this is just petty?
Short term benefit is not the same as longterm financal benefit. She cares about getting paid. She doesn't care about the longterm stability of a financial system.
Meanwhile nonwalkers have changed the status quo such as on Kamigawa or on Lorwyn for a quick two easy examples.
So your saying that planeswalkers are superfluous to the story if they are so interchangeable.
The rare times they aren't causing change, they are reinforcing the status quo by stopping a threat that is attempting to change the status quo.
Define a sharp plane shaping event.
Major upheaveals are showing their wear. There is only so many times the writers can threaten to end the world or change a major aspect of a world without it feeling forced for the sake of having stakes.
Still not as inconsistent as your ramble in which I rebuked each of your points.
I will not contest that as that does not refute what was originally said.
King Brago came back to life and resumed his reign to maintain stability. The inherit part you dislike is the fact that a good king overcame his first death, then resumed power. Then he is labelled a dictator because he just so happens to allow the actual villain Marchesa to take power.
and this I will not contest as that is the Obzedat. Its how Obzedat was murdered that people take qualms with which seems to get drowned out in favor of just pointing out they were reprehensible.
will not contest this point.
While in the process also almost forcing the liquidation of the guild which you casually left out.
First of all what you just said in her not enacting capital punishment proves that she can't be trusted to even assassinate a target for the right reasons when the contractor comes from the governmental body that seeks to enact that capital punishment on a war criminal.
Secondly I never stated Liliana reveled in it, I stated that the actions of her troops falls on her as responsibility as a military commander. She is not exempt for what her troops had done as she had knowledge of what her troops had done or are about to do. Stating she is forced into the role does not prevent the fact that she still can control not only her own actions but those of her troops. Said actions are the atrocities and murders of civilians and non-combatants through the military might of an invading force. Liliana can be a conscientious objector if that helps you rationalize it, but she could not impose that onto her troops due to her own contractual obligations by her employer which means the actions of her troops are still her actions.
Focusing on only one instance of planeswalker-environment interaction leads a bit to a distorted picture. In a vacuum planeswalkers being able to kill/overshadow/supplant native legendary creatures is fine. It's not a problem, but it happens again and again and again. If a certain pattern happens too often, it stops being a story event and starts being a way the narrative is approached by the authors. Even War of the Spark would have been fine, even though three of the guilds were usurped by extra-planar agents. In fact it would have served as a major contrast to the other stories and underline Nicol Bolas' influence. It could have served to enhance the story. Except stuff like this happens constantly. Even if the planeswalkers weren't necessarily the means to solve the story, like in Shadows over Innistrad, they still overshadowed everything and everyone else.
I think the main reason why I loved the Amonkhet storyline so much despite it being qualitatively kinda average was because for once the planeswalkers were more of a backdrop, only there to lead up to the next storyline, and the real drama was how the environment reacted to the plot.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Magic storytelling is best when it is environmental. It just doesn't lend itself well to character-centric storytelling, simply due to the game's own internal structure.
I understand why Magic does it. And the success seems to speak in their favour. But that does not make it a good approach to storytelling (which, fair, is only secondary to the game) and it also doesn't mean I have to like it.
1. All Planeswalkers are vigilantes just about. We literally had an entire block where every heroic Planeswalker was rebelling. Being a vigilante does not somehow mean that they are evil. And caring about consequences doesn't mean that you have to constantly avoid them, sometimes you accept them because it's in service to a better purpose. Like, you know, dethroning an immortal tyrant. Or a group of immortal tyrants.
2. I'm talking about when we were first introduced to her, where she let the mother avenge herself on her son. If she only cared about money she could have blackmailed him or any number of other options, or even simply just done her job and killed the ghost. She didn't, she let justice be done. As for the others with Brago he couldn't stick around, nor could the Obzedat.
3. Reckless is not the same as greedy though, which is how you tried to portray her. Yes, she clearly didn't realize what kind of impact that would cause. At the same time there is hardly any positive to be said about building an entire system and economy around slavery even after death, so I would say she was well within her right to do so. Again, if she was greedy she would have just kept the status quo. Your claim that all she cares about money holds zero weight.
4. You're welcome to call it petty, but your points are shoddy and inconsistent. At best you're trying to argue for the sake of it, at worst you legitimately don't like Kaya for the reasons insinuated and are trying to cover it up. Argue better before you start trying to throw out pithy quips. Your attempt at "rebuking" me did nothing at all.
5. Except again she doesn't do things for short term benefit. What possible short term benefit was there in freeing the ghosts? No one was asking for that. She did it because she felt it was wrong. Shockingly, most people would say slavery, especially after death, is a bad thing. I would bet Gideon would do the same thing in her position.
6. Nonwalkers are utterly irrelevant when the point is a comparison of planeswalker to other planeswalkers. I didn't once say "only Planeswalkers can cause change", what I said is that by their nature Planeswalkers almost inevitably cause change. The exceptions to that are... what, probably small enough to count on one hand. So it's not a Kaya problem.
7. What I am saying is that if you replaced Kaya with Chandra I can guarantee the plane of Kaldheim would still wind up destabilized. And so on and so forth with most Planeswalkers. If Kaya is the center of change (which isn't even a guarantee) it's not like any other Walker couldn't come in and still create a great amount of change.
8. What you said is not remotely different in any meaningful sense, trying to reword what I said and pass it off as a new point isn't going to fly here. Yes, Planeswalkers are at the center of planar conflict on either side of the conflict, that's how it is. Usually it's bringing about a great change, sometimes it's responding to another outsider trying to cause said change.
9. I don't need to define it, feel free to point to the last time we didn't have one. Outside of Zendikar just going back to normal (relatively speaking, and that's in response to the last time we went there being even more drastic than normal change wise) it has been a long while since we went to a block where relatively nothing major changed on the plane. And even that was still centered on the Roil, which would be a huge change to the plane if it went away.
10. Whether or not it is a good story trait is irrelevant to the point that it is a constant thing for Planeswalkers in general, not Kaya specifically. You can complain about WotC and how they approach story all you want, but pointing the fingers at Kaya and acting like she somehow is at fault is absurd.