Who cares about the lore anyway. It reads as terrible fan fiction. A couple of lore hints in the flavour text can be cool and add a certain sense of mystery, but the way the story is drive now is terrible. No bother.
Still, as a Dane, I'm hype for a Viking themed set. Hope it doesn't suck.
Who cares about the lore anyway. It reads as terrible fan fiction. A couple of lore hints in the flavour text can be cool and add a certain sense of mystery, but the way the story is drive now is terrible. No bother.
Still, as a Dane, I'm hype for a Viking themed set. Hope it doesn't suck.
Your not wrong and it doesn't help the planes in the longterm. After all part of wanting to visit certain planes was the lore. If the lore is trash then the desire to see certain planes or characters has less interest behind it.
God I'm sick of Kaya. For one, she is probably going to ruin the story again by killing another character. For two, she killed the obzedat! I'll never forgive her. I was very excited to get a new card for them, and it got pushed out by a subpar Kaya card. And now she is here to ruin something else...
The thing about this complaint is that it doesn't really seem relevant here.
Yes, Kaya killed established characters in her only appearances so far.
Yes, a "spirit killer" is probably going to kill spirits again this time around.
The thing about that, though, is that this is an entirely new plane for us.
There aren't going to be people who were hoping to see more cards of "Kromaun of the Hallowed Halls" or whatever because any creature she kills this time around will be entirely new and will have no pre-established fans. If anything, putting Kaya in brand new planes is the safest way to use her as it means that we don't have to worry about her bumping off an established character that people already like.
No, my comment is relevant. She is a poorly written character who simply gets put into worlds to kill people off. Sure, maybe we don't know anyone here, but she will likely kill off someone important to the story just because that's what she does. Actually, I would hope that she gets bumped off just because she is just a plot device. I'm sick of the stories revolving around planeswalkers meddling in the events of every single plane we go to and having such of the story revolve around their involvement.
It feels fake.
It's like every planeswalker shows up at just the right time in every world to see the biggest events, and then changes them. There is little to no evidence why this happens for most of the planes they visit, yet there they are: front and center and the heroes of the story.
God I'm sick of Kaya. For one, she is probably going to ruin the story again by killing another character. For two, she killed the obzedat! I'll never forgive her. I was very excited to get a new card for them, and it got pushed out by a subpar Kaya card. And now she is here to ruin something else...
The thing about this complaint is that it doesn't really seem relevant here.
Yes, Kaya killed established characters in her only appearances so far.
Yes, a "spirit killer" is probably going to kill spirits again this time around.
The thing about that, though, is that this is an entirely new plane for us.
There aren't going to be people who were hoping to see more cards of "Kromaun of the Hallowed Halls" or whatever because any creature she kills this time around will be entirely new and will have no pre-established fans. If anything, putting Kaya in brand new planes is the safest way to use her as it means that we don't have to worry about her bumping off an established character that people already like.
No, my comment is relevant. She is a poorly written character who simply gets put into worlds to kill people off. Sure, maybe we don't know anyone here, but she will likely kill off someone important to the story just because that's what she does. Actually, I would hope that she gets bumped off just because she is just a plot device. I'm sick of the stories revolving around planeswalkers meddling in the events of every single plane we go to and having such of the story revolve around their involvement.
It feels fake.
It's like every planeswalker shows up at just the right time in every world to see the biggest events, and then changes them. There is little to no evidence why this happens for most of the planes they visit, yet there they are: front and center and the heroes of the story.
Plus shes no Agent 47. Like yea shes basically been used as a hitman, but she doesn't really kill her primary target in a creative way either. So all we are left with is a 1-note assassin.
Like even the way she killed the council is basically no-selling it. Sure the council had it coming, but if fights are like a story, then man Obzedat's death was a snorefest. Easiest fix is just having Kaya go after the ghost council one member one at a time when they are alone like Kaya is the predator. Which creates a tension, possibly a better motive, as Kaya can't just waltz up and kill them all at once as together they are too strong, but alone they are easy pickings.
Since she just strolls in and kills them all like it were nothing, they blew their load with her in terms of potential story development. Like if she can kill the ghost council, ancient powerful ghosts who can literally create blackholes and had a warded room to keep assassins out, then where do you take her story from there? She can go kill I guess the Kaldheim equivalent of Hel or Odin or whatever who is also a ghost but it just makes her uninteresting as they have established that Kaya is more a plot device and less a character.
But this is how it's been since the beginning. Since Dyfed, the Planeswalker wars, Shandalar, The Shard, the mending, Ulgothra and everywhere, the story has basically been about what the Planeswalkers who showed up to a place ended up screwing with everything.
Now, because these planeswalkers have CARDS, it seems a little more in your face because GAME wise they are now in the middle of it. Before the cards were the reflections of what was happening because of the Walkers.
And as of yet, jumping to she is going to kill the most important lore wise character in Kaldheim is just jumping to a conclusion we have no idea on.
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Resigned up after getting lost in the Twitch/MTGS whatever crossover
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
Just a quick question, did anyone else read the Gathering Storm the story where she actually killed the Obzedat?
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Who cares about the lore anyway. It reads as terrible fan fiction. A couple of lore hints in the flavour text can be cool and add a certain sense of mystery, but the way the story is drive now is terrible. No bother.
Still, as a Dane, I'm hype for a Viking themed set. Hope it doesn't suck.
Your not wrong and it doesn't help the planes in the longterm. After all part of wanting to visit certain planes was the lore. If the lore is trash then the desire to see certain planes or characters has less interest behind it.
I would love to see more of Kaladesh, but mostly because I love the art direction hehe.
Just a quick question, did anyone else read the Gathering Storm the story where she actually killed the Obzedat?
Nah. Then again the death of the Obzedat happened back in January, the War of the Spark novel happened in April, and the Gathering Storm was a slow burn over two months (June to July) for just the Obzedat story.
It's just stupid writing. Planeswalkers show up on foreign worlds ready to show everyone who is boss. An entire unique plane is just a back drop for them instead of its own dimension. They should be exploring new worlds, learning from its mages, delving into new magic, etc. Not showing up and flexing on the turf of others. Planar overloads like gods, Avacyn, Progenitus, Eldrazi, etc. are unfathomable opponents, if they are just pushovers for Planeswalkers, then everything beneath them is as well, such as hydras, baloths, etc. at which point, literally nothing matters and there are no stakes.
Gideon whipping Ulamog back is the highest offense of this.
This is one of numerous reasons that ever since Scars block, I have hoped the Walkers would - in their search to find new worlds to visit - inadvertently stumble upon a previously healthy plane overrun with Phyrexian invasion. The Walkers would be forced to retreat or be eviscerated, perhaps with some combination of each, only for the army to follow them across planes by use of the spark mechanisms of the walkers themselves/some type of tracking portal as the Walkers are constantly stalked throughout the Multiverse by a threat with their own ability.
But this is how it's been since the beginning. Since Dyfed, the Planeswalker wars, Shandalar, The Shard, the mending, Ulgothra and everywhere, the story has basically been about what the Planeswalkers who showed up to a place ended up screwing with everything.
Now, because these planeswalkers have CARDS, it seems a little more in your face because GAME wise they are now in the middle of it. Before the cards were the reflections of what was happening because of the Walkers.
And as of yet, jumping to she is going to kill the most important lore wise character in Kaldheim is just jumping to a conclusion we have no idea on.
But wasn't that the exact reason they changed planeswalkers in the big powering down during Time Spiral-block?
Punching Eldrazi Titans is not the kind of story I hoped to get out of that move. I can't emphasise enough how much I enjoyed the Weatherlight-crew chapters and Kytheon Iora's story pre-spark.
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Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
But this is how it's been since the beginning. Since Dyfed, the Planeswalker wars, Shandalar, The Shard, the mending, Ulgothra and everywhere, the story has basically been about what the Planeswalkers who showed up to a place ended up screwing with everything.
Now, because these planeswalkers have CARDS, it seems a little more in your face because GAME wise they are now in the middle of it. Before the cards were the reflections of what was happening because of the Walkers.
And as of yet, jumping to she is going to kill the most important lore wise character in Kaldheim is just jumping to a conclusion we have no idea on.
while true its also kind of not really. there's a huge difference between early walkers in the stories, and then walkers around and after apocalypse, and then walkers after the mending.
they weren't really unkillable gods until after king got his hands on the sotry, and then from that point forward they stopped dying to random things like a knife to the forehead and started being story warping deus ex machina unkillable gods. its so easy to forget how easily they died pre-invasion era. they were strong, they could do quite a bit, but they were still mortal.
honestly walkers have always been at their best though when they're a force of nature. when the story revolves around other characters and walkers are just a thing that can show up sometimes. leshrac and freyalise in the ice age cycle books being a really good examples. urza was handled well enough given how mortal he felt, how many times he came close to death, until he wasn't handled well. then the stories just spiraled out of control until walkers were the solution to absolutely everything. they wrote themselves into a corner. it looks like they've slowly started to fall back into that trap with the new walkers too. by centering the story around them, but never killing any of them, or even really making them come close to death, there's no real tension ever. its bad storytelling once again. sure some have died over the years, gideon, domri, elspeth, but it took YEARS to flesh that out poorly and they're not even all that dead.
Although I wasn't keen on her forgiving too many of our guild's debtors, still, I'm excited to see my new Guildlord kick some spiritual-<censored>!
I love her new armor and I think making her the face of the set is a neat idea. Maybe the dead aren't heading to Kaldheim's version of Valhalla like they ought?
I hope we also get to see Chandra, Ramaz and a new 'walker as well!
Edit: I for one like planesalkers and planeswalker characters being strongly enmeshed in the story. MtG's story requires cohesion as there really isn't anything tying these worlds together besides the multiverse. planeswalkers and The Five main fonts of mana themselves.
Edit: I for one like planesalkers and planeswalker characters being strongly enmeshed in the story. MtG's story requires cohesion as there really isn't anything tying these worlds together besides the multiverse. planeswalkers and The Five main fonts of mana themselves.
Well what tied together the beloved lore was very human characters who were written well. One of the biggest threats to the multiverse wasn't even a planeswalker, but instead a mortal who ascended in power and would later be known as The Father of Machines. Such was his power that he threatened and invaded and assimilated the denizens of other planes under his vision of glorious perfection. And it took a coalition of powerful godlike planeswalkers and mortals to combat such a threat that had no spark and even then the fight was an uphill battle.
What also tied the lore was not just the five colors, but how their mana would transcend across worlds to these planeswalkers based on the connections these planeswalkers formed with the land.
What also tied the lore was not simply summoned beasties like a fire cat or a skeleton, but actually sapient and sentient beings who would travel alongside planeswalkers to other worlds. What Kaya did with Rat wouldn't be wrong Pre-Mending and wouldn't even require Kaya making Rat temporally dead to do so.
What seems forgotten is that planeswalkers were not the only ones capable of traversing to other planes. Just take the Djinn and Efreet of the plane known as Wildfire such as Emberwilde Captain who were capable of traveling through planar portals constructed by their kind and the most prominent of these portals would be linked to Rabiah and Dominaria. It would be remiss for me to not even mention such things as the Weatherlight which was a technological marvel capable of traveling to other planes. Yet the Phyrexians of New Phyrexians who lack this technology are not a credible threat like their predecessors because of the mending.
Planeswalkers yes meddled and created messes pre-mending, they also could be just a force to drive the plot or fully fleshed out characters, but the real power behind them was watching how non-planeswalkers would respond to changes. A gripping story for at least the first three books was when Karn placed the Mirari on Otaria as a simple satellite to analyze Dominaria, and this inadvertently results in the masses fighting over it when realizing that it can amplify their magics and grant them their deepest wishes. That is simply a drop in the ocean of a planeswalker's power and intrigue, but that single drop created great waves.
Just a quick question, did anyone else read the Gathering Storm the story where she actually killed the Obzedat?
I read it, and it's partially why I'm such a Kaya fan. She was a very fun PoV character in the books, and this is from a guy who expected to have more in common with Ral Zarek.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.
And Planeswalkers being more powerful and less hands on does not sound like a better story, at all. As for how powerful they are to me it always reads as less about raw power and more about knowledge and tricks they know that others don’t, and combining them in new ways.
Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.
Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.
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Trailer and some spoilers should start dropping Mid December, Maro hinted it being the same as Theros Beyond Death when it comes to spoilers so there's that, the set will be released in early february which means there's most likely some product coming out in January probably a new Secret Lair superdrop
Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.
Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.
^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.
Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.
Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-
-but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?
WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.
Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.
Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.
^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.
Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.
Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-
-but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?
WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.
This isn't personal toward you - but people have cried wolf so much about "racism" on the heels of America's first black president (that I voted for twice) so much that frankly, I'm worried it's the left that will compromise America's racial progress, and not the fears they've either resurrected or invented.
Kaya is disliked because she killed off a famous Legendary character, a guild leader, that was a facet of Ravnica's core identity. We can see Kaya on any plane, but there is only one Obzedat.
She and her power suite were used to break a fundamental Planeswalking rule. Jiang wasn't even a break in my opinion, but she certainly was.
She was a major player in the most loathed, most abhorrent, most compromising aspect of the lore ever - the War of the Spark novels. And the greatest criticism of the series was in fact undermining a very Left-leaning ideal of embracing the LGBT community and progress.
She is an assassin, and the apprehension that she has returned to kill off another major character on our very first visit and introduction to this plane is a valid concern. Especially when we're first introduced to these characters.
Literally none of this has to do with her race or gender, even for those that want to be about that, against all reason, reality and odds, because the media told them it must.
Er... I have never heard anyone really utter praise for the Obzedat. Tesya? Sure. Ancient ghost bankers? Not so much. That people suddenly seem to care because she killed them reseda honestly suspicious.
And... nothing about her breaks Planeswalking rules as far as I’m aware of. Does she ever transport an actual live human across planes? I don’t recall that but maybe it’s mentioned somewhere.
As for being an assassin and that’s bad, I’ve heard more than a few people gripe that Garruk wasn’t killing off planeswalkers, so clearly people are fine with Garruk offing walkers. To say nothing of the griping that WotS didn’t kill off more walkers either. So if you’re expecting to sell me on that being an issue you’re going to have to explain the double standard.
Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.
Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.
^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.
Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.
Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-
-but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?
WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.
This isn't personal toward you - but people have cried wolf so much about "racism" on the heels of America's first black president (that I voted for twice) so much that frankly, I'm worried it's the left that will compromise America's racial progress, and not the fears they've either resurrected or invented.
Kaya is disliked because she killed off a famous Legendary character, a guild leader, that was a facet of Ravnica's core identity. We can see Kaya on any plane, but there is only one Obzedat.
She and her power suite were used to break a fundamental Planeswalking rule. Jiang wasn't even a break in my opinion, but she certainly was.
She was a major player in the most loathed, most abhorrent, most compromising aspect of the lore ever - the War of the Spark novels. And the greatest criticism of the series was in fact undermining a very Left-leaning ideal of embracing the LGBT community and progress.
She is an assassin, and the apprehension that she has returned to kill off another major character on our very first visit and introduction to this plane is a valid concern. Especially when we're first introduced to these characters.
Literally none of this has to do with her race or gender, even for those that want to be about that, against all reason, reality and odds, because the media told them it must.
The issue OrzhovPlaneswalker there is talking about is way, way bigger than some American political drama. Almost all white supremacists in Europe have co-opted Norse myth and imagery, to the horror of those who still actually worship the Norse pantheon. This is more flipping them off and/or helping the pagans (is that what they're called?) get their religion back and/or helping actual Scandinavians rub the white supremacy out of their contemporary culture.
Kaya as a character suffers from every planeswalker's problem of the lore being written by different people. This problem is so old, there's a Dakkon Blackblade version for each author who even remotely mentioned him. Quality has been declining over time: she was used well in Conspiracy 2 (let's be honest, people liked Marchesa way more than Brago), kinda eh in The Gathering Storm (no, she didn't just walk into the Obzedat meeting and John Wick-ed them, but nuance is a bit lacking everywhere nowadays, so that's to be expected), and horrible in the War of the Spark novels. If anything, she has a lack of agenda problem. Killing Brago was a Marchesa move, and killing the Ghost Council was a Bolas move that also became a Teysa move. If Wizards can make her character do something of her own volition like Vraska, she could redeem her character arc. Now, I have higher expectations that Yellowstone will erupt as a full supervolcano than I do of any Kaya fixing, but there is still hope. It will be a good business move, so we'll see.
That being said, I despise how she gets around the planeswalker rule (Possession? Really?) Yanggu gets around it smartly: Mowu is a Chinese guardian lion (also known as a foo dog, hence Mowu is a dog), so he's travelling not with a flesh-and-blood dog, but with a walking statue. Kaya's trick is stupid, and I hope it gets retcon-ed.
It's really sad that discussing anything concerning people of color and representation is uncannily read by some as an invitation to bring problematic political hot takes into a discussion.
Yes Norse mythology has been partially coopted by white supremacists and that's a landmine that WotC wants to avoid. A way of doing that is showing a diverse cast of characters. That is a positive decision. This isn't a political statement and it isn't an invitation to tell me how you feel about an American political party or "minority character bad" or "media bad." I feel like we got quite enough of that when Ixalan came out and we saw angry rants about female pirates or whatever.
Personally I think Kaya is an okay character that I'd like to see more of. She has a niche all to herself and that makes her interesting. The stories have always been pretty subpar and that's definitely not something that's unique to those involving Kaya.
As a Pagan I can certainly agree it’s a wise move. The last thing MtG needs is more white supremacy supporters. Kaya really undercuts that WotC isn’t in line with that. You can’t get much more against the kind of garbage those kind support than having Kaya as the face.
And didn’t realize in the novels that Kaya did some weird possession planeswalker thing. On the one hand it reads like a really clever way to get around it, on the other I do get the issues people have. But honestly I’m leaning more towards clever subversion than being an actual issue.
Edit: As for Kaya lacking a motivation, that kind of again requires her to show up more to get there. Though I’m not sure every walker has some grand overarching motivation honestly, so if people are going after her specifically for it that seems weird. She reads like Tamiyo in that there are certain things she tends to do on a plane, but no grand goal beyond that.
Ya, Nazi loves Norse stuff and have been trying to "adopt it" like they did the swastika. Met a gal in college who was a Norse Pagan and she had some pretty cool metallic/bismith Norse rune tattoo that she was really considering get rid of since she had been getting accused of being a Nazi and she was afraid of them being deemed a hate symbol soon.
Er... I have never heard anyone really utter praise for the Obzedat. Tesya? Sure. Ancient ghost bankers? Not so much. That people suddenly seem to care because she killed them reseda honestly suspicious.
That been my though for a while. Last I check most people were loving the idea of Teysa getting rid of them...which she did.
As for being an assassin and that’s bad, I’ve heard more than a few people gripe that Garruk wasn’t killing off planeswalkers, so clearly people are fine with Garruk offing walkers. To say nothing of the griping that WotS didn’t kill off more walkers either. So if you’re expecting to sell me on that being an issue you’re going to have to explain the double standard.
Unless your Tamiyo or Teyo most of the planeswalkers have done some mortally question stuff. There is also a fun mortality talk for beings should be dead and are unnaturally back which is Kaya view on the matter.
And didn’t realize in the novels that Kaya did some weird possession planeswalker thing. On the one hand it reads like a really clever way to get around it, on the other I do get the issues people have. But honestly I’m leaning more towards clever subversion than being an actual issue.
Nope it was dumb and a valid criticism of use of the character. That said this came from the second War of the Spark novel, the book that no character or lore point came out looking good.
Edit: As for Kaya lacking a motivation, that kind of again requires her to show up more to get there. Though I’m not sure every walker has some grand overarching motivation honestly, so if people are going after her specifically for it that seems weird. She reads like Tamiyo in that there are certain things she tends to do on a plane, but no grand goal beyond that.
Which was why i asked about the lore since Kaya has the motivation of fixing her home that Bolas likely broke in the first place and her having a rocky relationship with her family yet all her ghost killing money and such has been sent off to them.
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Still, as a Dane, I'm hype for a Viking themed set. Hope it doesn't suck.
No, my comment is relevant. She is a poorly written character who simply gets put into worlds to kill people off. Sure, maybe we don't know anyone here, but she will likely kill off someone important to the story just because that's what she does. Actually, I would hope that she gets bumped off just because she is just a plot device. I'm sick of the stories revolving around planeswalkers meddling in the events of every single plane we go to and having such of the story revolve around their involvement.
It feels fake.
It's like every planeswalker shows up at just the right time in every world to see the biggest events, and then changes them. There is little to no evidence why this happens for most of the planes they visit, yet there they are: front and center and the heroes of the story.
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Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
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Like even the way she killed the council is basically no-selling it. Sure the council had it coming, but if fights are like a story, then man Obzedat's death was a snorefest. Easiest fix is just having Kaya go after the ghost council one member one at a time when they are alone like Kaya is the predator. Which creates a tension, possibly a better motive, as Kaya can't just waltz up and kill them all at once as together they are too strong, but alone they are easy pickings.
Since she just strolls in and kills them all like it were nothing, they blew their load with her in terms of potential story development. Like if she can kill the ghost council, ancient powerful ghosts who can literally create blackholes and had a warded room to keep assassins out, then where do you take her story from there? She can go kill I guess the Kaldheim equivalent of Hel or Odin or whatever who is also a ghost but it just makes her uninteresting as they have established that Kaya is more a plot device and less a character.
Now, because these planeswalkers have CARDS, it seems a little more in your face because GAME wise they are now in the middle of it. Before the cards were the reflections of what was happening because of the Walkers.
And as of yet, jumping to she is going to kill the most important lore wise character in Kaldheim is just jumping to a conclusion we have no idea on.
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I would love to see more of Kaladesh, but mostly because I love the art direction hehe.
This is one of numerous reasons that ever since Scars block, I have hoped the Walkers would - in their search to find new worlds to visit - inadvertently stumble upon a previously healthy plane overrun with Phyrexian invasion. The Walkers would be forced to retreat or be eviscerated, perhaps with some combination of each, only for the army to follow them across planes by use of the spark mechanisms of the walkers themselves/some type of tracking portal as the Walkers are constantly stalked throughout the Multiverse by a threat with their own ability.
But wasn't that the exact reason they changed planeswalkers in the big powering down during Time Spiral-block?
Punching Eldrazi Titans is not the kind of story I hoped to get out of that move. I can't emphasise enough how much I enjoyed the Weatherlight-crew chapters and Kytheon Iora's story pre-spark.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
while true its also kind of not really. there's a huge difference between early walkers in the stories, and then walkers around and after apocalypse, and then walkers after the mending.
they weren't really unkillable gods until after king got his hands on the sotry, and then from that point forward they stopped dying to random things like a knife to the forehead and started being story warping deus ex machina unkillable gods. its so easy to forget how easily they died pre-invasion era. they were strong, they could do quite a bit, but they were still mortal.
honestly walkers have always been at their best though when they're a force of nature. when the story revolves around other characters and walkers are just a thing that can show up sometimes. leshrac and freyalise in the ice age cycle books being a really good examples. urza was handled well enough given how mortal he felt, how many times he came close to death, until he wasn't handled well. then the stories just spiraled out of control until walkers were the solution to absolutely everything. they wrote themselves into a corner. it looks like they've slowly started to fall back into that trap with the new walkers too. by centering the story around them, but never killing any of them, or even really making them come close to death, there's no real tension ever. its bad storytelling once again. sure some have died over the years, gideon, domri, elspeth, but it took YEARS to flesh that out poorly and they're not even all that dead.
I love her new armor and I think making her the face of the set is a neat idea. Maybe the dead aren't heading to Kaldheim's version of Valhalla like they ought?
I hope we also get to see Chandra, Ramaz and a new 'walker as well!
Edit: I for one like planesalkers and planeswalker characters being strongly enmeshed in the story. MtG's story requires cohesion as there really isn't anything tying these worlds together besides the multiverse. planeswalkers and The Five main fonts of mana themselves.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
What also tied the lore was not just the five colors, but how their mana would transcend across worlds to these planeswalkers based on the connections these planeswalkers formed with the land.
What also tied the lore was not simply summoned beasties like a fire cat or a skeleton, but actually sapient and sentient beings who would travel alongside planeswalkers to other worlds. What Kaya did with Rat wouldn't be wrong Pre-Mending and wouldn't even require Kaya making Rat temporally dead to do so.
What seems forgotten is that planeswalkers were not the only ones capable of traversing to other planes. Just take the Djinn and Efreet of the plane known as Wildfire such as Emberwilde Captain who were capable of traveling through planar portals constructed by their kind and the most prominent of these portals would be linked to Rabiah and Dominaria. It would be remiss for me to not even mention such things as the Weatherlight which was a technological marvel capable of traveling to other planes. Yet the Phyrexians of New Phyrexians who lack this technology are not a credible threat like their predecessors because of the mending.
Planeswalkers yes meddled and created messes pre-mending, they also could be just a force to drive the plot or fully fleshed out characters, but the real power behind them was watching how non-planeswalkers would respond to changes. A gripping story for at least the first three books was when Karn placed the Mirari on Otaria as a simple satellite to analyze Dominaria, and this inadvertently results in the masses fighting over it when realizing that it can amplify their magics and grant them their deepest wishes. That is simply a drop in the ocean of a planeswalker's power and intrigue, but that single drop created great waves.
I read it, and it's partially why I'm such a Kaya fan. She was a very fun PoV character in the books, and this is from a guy who expected to have more in common with Ral Zarek.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
And Planeswalkers being more powerful and less hands on does not sound like a better story, at all. As for how powerful they are to me it always reads as less about raw power and more about knowledge and tricks they know that others don’t, and combining them in new ways.
Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.
Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.
Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-
-but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?
WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Kaya is disliked because she killed off a famous Legendary character, a guild leader, that was a facet of Ravnica's core identity. We can see Kaya on any plane, but there is only one Obzedat.
She and her power suite were used to break a fundamental Planeswalking rule. Jiang wasn't even a break in my opinion, but she certainly was.
She was a major player in the most loathed, most abhorrent, most compromising aspect of the lore ever - the War of the Spark novels. And the greatest criticism of the series was in fact undermining a very Left-leaning ideal of embracing the LGBT community and progress.
She is an assassin, and the apprehension that she has returned to kill off another major character on our very first visit and introduction to this plane is a valid concern. Especially when we're first introduced to these characters.
Literally none of this has to do with her race or gender, even for those that want to be about that, against all reason, reality and odds, because the media told them it must.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
And... nothing about her breaks Planeswalking rules as far as I’m aware of. Does she ever transport an actual live human across planes? I don’t recall that but maybe it’s mentioned somewhere.
As for being an assassin and that’s bad, I’ve heard more than a few people gripe that Garruk wasn’t killing off planeswalkers, so clearly people are fine with Garruk offing walkers. To say nothing of the griping that WotS didn’t kill off more walkers either. So if you’re expecting to sell me on that being an issue you’re going to have to explain the double standard.
The issue OrzhovPlaneswalker there is talking about is way, way bigger than some American political drama. Almost all white supremacists in Europe have co-opted Norse myth and imagery, to the horror of those who still actually worship the Norse pantheon. This is more flipping them off and/or helping the pagans (is that what they're called?) get their religion back and/or helping actual Scandinavians rub the white supremacy out of their contemporary culture.
Kaya as a character suffers from every planeswalker's problem of the lore being written by different people. This problem is so old, there's a Dakkon Blackblade version for each author who even remotely mentioned him. Quality has been declining over time: she was used well in Conspiracy 2 (let's be honest, people liked Marchesa way more than Brago), kinda eh in The Gathering Storm (no, she didn't just walk into the Obzedat meeting and John Wick-ed them, but nuance is a bit lacking everywhere nowadays, so that's to be expected), and horrible in the War of the Spark novels. If anything, she has a lack of agenda problem. Killing Brago was a Marchesa move, and killing the Ghost Council was a Bolas move that also became a Teysa move. If Wizards can make her character do something of her own volition like Vraska, she could redeem her character arc. Now, I have higher expectations that Yellowstone will erupt as a full supervolcano than I do of any Kaya fixing, but there is still hope. It will be a good business move, so we'll see.
That being said, I despise how she gets around the planeswalker rule (Possession? Really?) Yanggu gets around it smartly: Mowu is a Chinese guardian lion (also known as a foo dog, hence Mowu is a dog), so he's travelling not with a flesh-and-blood dog, but with a walking statue. Kaya's trick is stupid, and I hope it gets retcon-ed.
Yes Norse mythology has been partially coopted by white supremacists and that's a landmine that WotC wants to avoid. A way of doing that is showing a diverse cast of characters. That is a positive decision. This isn't a political statement and it isn't an invitation to tell me how you feel about an American political party or "minority character bad" or "media bad." I feel like we got quite enough of that when Ixalan came out and we saw angry rants about female pirates or whatever.
Personally I think Kaya is an okay character that I'd like to see more of. She has a niche all to herself and that makes her interesting. The stories have always been pretty subpar and that's definitely not something that's unique to those involving Kaya.
And didn’t realize in the novels that Kaya did some weird possession planeswalker thing. On the one hand it reads like a really clever way to get around it, on the other I do get the issues people have. But honestly I’m leaning more towards clever subversion than being an actual issue.
Edit: As for Kaya lacking a motivation, that kind of again requires her to show up more to get there. Though I’m not sure every walker has some grand overarching motivation honestly, so if people are going after her specifically for it that seems weird. She reads like Tamiyo in that there are certain things she tends to do on a plane, but no grand goal beyond that.
That been my though for a while. Last I check most people were loving the idea of Teysa getting rid of them...which she did.
Unless your Tamiyo or Teyo most of the planeswalkers have done some mortally question stuff. There is also a fun mortality talk for beings should be dead and are unnaturally back which is Kaya view on the matter.
Nope it was dumb and a valid criticism of use of the character. That said this came from the second War of the Spark novel, the book that no character or lore point came out looking good.
Which was why i asked about the lore since Kaya has the motivation of fixing her home that Bolas likely broke in the first place and her having a rocky relationship with her family yet all her ghost killing money and such has been sent off to them.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"