But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
You're boldly assuming each opponent will have removal turn 1, but the mana to cast that removal on turn 1 as well. Path or Swords might do it, but most removal is CMC 2 or higher.
Turn 1 Grand Arbiter turns the game on its head. Turn 1 Liliana, Heretical Healer + Flip is also very possible and very powerful.
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
There are 11369 creatures in the game. All of them die to removal. That doesn't mean the creature is bad.
This is especially true if you force someone to commit 2 or 3 cards just to get rid of 1.
And while JL will not be in the opening hand every time, when it does is when the real problems arise. For many commanders, this creates a larger gap than Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Mana Vault, which are highly controversial cards in the format as well. I am willing to bet there are going to be a lot more times where JL shows up Turn 1 or 2 and wrecks a game than times where it is drawn turn 9 and does literally nothing. I've heard that argument for Sol Ring too many times t count.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
You understand that Lotus being in the opener is literally, statistically less likely than it being drawn later in the game, right? That's not a defensible position to take.
Obviously human beings are more likely to remember the extremes of the range, but come on.
Sol Ring is LESS good later in the game, but so is any form of static ramp and ramp is generally still good enough. The reason Sol Ring and Mana Crypt et al. are so powerful is not because they give a single turn of additional mana, but multiple turns of additional mana. The winner of a game of Magic is, generally speaking, the player who spends the most mana. If you get 3 extra mana from a Lotus once, and I get 4 turns with Sol Ring, I know who is probably going to win that game.
Remember that Sol Ring is widely considered stronger than any Mox or Lotus.
Lotus is more comparable to Dark Ritual, in that it enables truly explosive starts, but depreciates in utility much faster than permanent sources of mana advantage. It has the upside of being 0 mana and any color, but the crippling downside of only being usable on your commander. The card is fine. Not terrible, not busted, but interesting and potentially strong in the right situation.
I very much doubt it’s going to shake up the format. This card will settle around $25-$30 and be just another tool for some decks but not all. No one is going to replace a Sol Ring or Arcane Signet in their deck with Jeweled Lotus. It’s too narrow to have that kind of impact.
You understand that Lotus being in the opener is literally, statistically less likely than it being drawn later in the game, right? That's not a defensible position to take.
Obviously human beings are more likely to remember the extremes of the range, but come on.
But this variance is actually part of the problem (at least as far as I can tell). If the card is actually a game-winner in the starting hand, then the likelihood of this doesn't matter (unless its astronomical, which a simple draw seven out of a hundred alone is not, ignoring all mulligans or other shenanigans), the reasonable chance to create "non-games" is a valid problem... if it actually causes that, which is asserted and a question I don't feel qualified to chime in on.
But if the scenario is problematic as proposed the variance would just be part of the problem, not a negating factor.
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Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
I mean its also a permanent and its also an artifact, and there is plenty of ways to either tutor for that or just recur that from the graveyard. Which means its hands down better than most rituals which are not artifacts.
There is also the factor of it just costing 0, so it means your other mana is potentially freed up and it takes less cards to pull off a big explosive play which also is a factor towards card advantage.
Essentially what the purpose of a Jeweled Lotus serves is as a turbo-yet-narrow version of Lotus Petal but only for casting your commander. For example you can always go... Turn 1: Mountain, Jeweled Lotus, Purphoros, God of the Forge. Subsequent turns can be used to play other cards to crank up the pace of the game.
As any two-color, mono-color, or colorless commander that is 4 cmc or less now be played turn 1. And a lower CMC than 4 really only benefits 3 but also applies to 2 and 1 as you don't have to factor a land into the equation unless they are two-color. While for cards that cost 5 CMC or higher means they more or less have 1 or more turns being required to play it.
The common, tired, and intellectually dishonest argument to throw at this card is: "What if you draw it at the wrong time?". The reason its common is it parroted all the time as a way to try and show how a card is less likely to see use in a conversation around it. But the reason such an argumentative point is intellectually dishonest is that same argument can apply to many instances when the top card of your deck or your opening hand is not ideal in your current situation. After all how many times has the phrase "I was only [x] turns away from drawing [card]" when somebody loses? The retort one might try to bring up is that isn't the same, as certain cards always have value, but what if a boardsweeper is a dead draw because the current state of the game isn't really worth it and you would much rather have something else? And that is the thing that always gets missed about these situations is there is a lot of moving parts if your gonna say "what if you draw it at the wrong?" As the implication is there is an existing state that could be analyzed, but since there isn't this is like the equivalent of a Schrodinger's Magical Christmas Land in which it has technically everything but also nothing for you and your opponents exists, but since nobody has a concrete state of the game with actual information, it will always result in a pointless rabbit hole of argumenatation and wasted time. A sol ring in one scenario could be a dead draw, in another it can be the vital card needed to get a big play off the ground.
Its intellectually dishonest to claim that the entire reason you're wrong is intellectually dishonest, just saying
It is VERY relevant that Lotus is a dead draw later in the game. It is not just some throwaway downside, it is huge. Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, et al. are still useful if you didn't use them to get out to an explosive lead. This really is not, which is the entire problem with it.
Is Lotus powerful in the opener if your general can use 3 of the same color and can generate you enough of an advantage to offset archenemy status? Absolutely, and I personally have a couple such generals and will be trying this out.
Is Lotus worth a card at any other point in the game barring decks that make use of 0 cmc do-nothing artifacts? Unequivocally no.
Card is fine, people are going to overpay for it and be really sad that its not nearly worth the hype and continue to spit death-threats at WotC one way or another.
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
There are 11369 creatures in the game. All of them die to removal. That doesn't mean the creature is bad.
This is especially true if you force someone to commit 2 or 3 cards just to get rid of 1.
And while JL will not be in the opening hand every time, when it does is when the real problems arise. For many commanders, this creates a larger gap than Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Mana Vault, which are highly controversial cards in the format as well. I am willing to bet there are going to be a lot more times where JL shows up Turn 1 or 2 and wrecks a game than times where it is drawn turn 9 and does literally nothing. I've heard that argument for Sol Ring too many times t count.
You're missing the point. I'm not by any means saying any creature is bad. I'm saying getting them out turn 1, with few exceptions, isn't GOOD. Especially since you're using a disposable resource to do it, that will not be available in almost all cases later on when you need to cast it again and it costs 2 more. Most commanders aren't going to be good to have out t1, with no protection. It will inevitably draw any available removal, and set you back even further due to commander tax. Strategically, for nearly all commanders, it's just not a good play. And late game, your deck should already be built to compensate for commander tax increases, so JL shouldn't be necessary there either. It truly adds nothing to most decks that they don't already have available in other, better, cards.
And to your second point, if you use JL to get your commander out t1, you've also lost 2 cards when that removal spell hits - your commander and JL.
If your commander isn't "good" on T1, then you can use the Lotus to cast them on turn X when they ARE good. And "turn X" will be, thanks to Lotus:
1) Earlier than you would have cast the commander otherwise, or else
2) The same turn you would have cast the commander otherwise, but with more mana or resources available.
And this is faster than Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, and doesn't take a mana or life investment like Mana Vault, so yes, it absolutely gives almost every deck a boost no other card can compare to
Yeah I definitely think Lotus is overrated but I can't get behind the argument that turboing out your commander isn't a good thing. YMMV, but usually you want that thing in play asap (w/ protection if possible but yolo).
Jeweled Lotus is very, very good, imo. Maybe not Mana Crypt and Sol Ring broken, but still very good. The problem is of course that Jeweled Lotus is an additional card that can power out commanders turn 1-2. So a deck with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Jeweled Lotus now probably has a significant chance of casting a 4-5 CMC commander turn 1 or 2.
I don't buy into the "but it makes you the archenemy" argument. Clearly that argument can be used to defend any über-powered card, and leads to a slippery slope.
I don't particularly like the "but it is dead lategame" argument either. That argument is true for most ramp effects, yet they still see plenty of play. The benefits clearly outweigh the drawback in this case.
I don't particularly like the "but it is dead lategame" argument either. That argument is true for most ramp effects, yet they still see plenty of play. The benefits clearly outweigh the drawback in this case.
The difference between traditional ramp and this card in the late game being that traditional ramp can at least play other cards, power out X spells, allow you to multi-spell, thin your deck, etc. Lotus does literally one thing. Which is a strong thing, sure, but the average case for it is going to be 'dead card in hand' since any given card is much more likely to NOT be in the opener. That's a really bad floor to risk for the ceiling offered.
Again, I like the card. I'm happy it exists. I'll be playing a couple in decks that can abuse it.
Its incredibly overrated though, and nowhere near worth its current price tag. $100+ is laughable for not even the best card in the set, in a set that will be opened probably more than any set in recent history. The foil full-art saw ebay listings of $800. People need to calm the hell down, cuz Black Lotus this ain't.
I don't particularly like the "but it is dead lategame" argument either. That argument is true for most ramp effects, yet they still see plenty of play. The benefits clearly outweigh the drawback in this case.
The difference between traditional ramp and this card in the late game being that traditional ramp can at least play other cards, power out X spells, allow you to multi-spell, thin your deck, etc. Lotus does literally one thing. Which is a strong thing, sure, but the average case for it is going to be 'dead card in hand' since any given card is much more likely to NOT be in the opener. That's a really bad floor to risk for the ceiling offered.
The floor ain't so bad when it requires you to already have your commander on the battlefield.
I don't particularly like the "but it is dead lategame" argument either. That argument is true for most ramp effects, yet they still see plenty of play. The benefits clearly outweigh the drawback in this case.
The difference between traditional ramp and this card in the late game being that traditional ramp can at least play other cards, power out X spells, allow you to multi-spell, thin your deck, etc. Lotus does literally one thing. Which is a strong thing, sure, but the average case for it is going to be 'dead card in hand' since any given card is much more likely to NOT be in the opener. That's a really bad floor to risk for the ceiling offered.
Again, I like the card. I'm happy it exists. I'll be playing a couple in decks that can abuse it.
Its incredibly overrated though, and nowhere near worth its current price tag. $100+ is laughable for not even the best card in the set, in a set that will be opened probably more than any set in recent history. The foil full-art saw ebay listings of $800. People need to calm the hell down, cuz Black Lotus this ain't.
you'll be playing your commander multiple times during the game, and he'll be more expensive each time you do.
getting a "Black Lotus" in the endgame where your Commander is in the command zone, will oftentime allow you to recast it AND whatever you drew that same turn and that´s relevant enough to make it not a dead card.
If your commander is alive and well in the end game, it's very likely you're already winning anyway.
and every card is a bad topdeck sometimes.... there's no card that's always a great topdeck.... some get pretty close like Brainstorm or Ancestral Recall but outside stuff like that, there's nothing that will always be a good topdeck.
that said, I do agree that it's ridiculously overpriced, in general it's far worse than both Sol Ring and Mana crypt and likely not much better than Mana Vault as well.... If I luck out get a Jeweled Lotus from a booster or something while the price is that ridiculous, you can be sure that I'll sell it immediately.
If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.
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Agreed. This card is dope, not broken but very interesting.
This set is so ******* cool!
There are 11369 creatures in the game. All of them die to removal. That doesn't mean the creature is bad.
This is especially true if you force someone to commit 2 or 3 cards just to get rid of 1.
And while JL will not be in the opening hand every time, when it does is when the real problems arise. For many commanders, this creates a larger gap than Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Mana Vault, which are highly controversial cards in the format as well. I am willing to bet there are going to be a lot more times where JL shows up Turn 1 or 2 and wrecks a game than times where it is drawn turn 9 and does literally nothing. I've heard that argument for Sol Ring too many times t count.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Obviously human beings are more likely to remember the extremes of the range, but come on.
Sol Ring is LESS good later in the game, but so is any form of static ramp and ramp is generally still good enough. The reason Sol Ring and Mana Crypt et al. are so powerful is not because they give a single turn of additional mana, but multiple turns of additional mana. The winner of a game of Magic is, generally speaking, the player who spends the most mana. If you get 3 extra mana from a Lotus once, and I get 4 turns with Sol Ring, I know who is probably going to win that game.
Remember that Sol Ring is widely considered stronger than any Mox or Lotus.
Lotus is more comparable to Dark Ritual, in that it enables truly explosive starts, but depreciates in utility much faster than permanent sources of mana advantage. It has the upside of being 0 mana and any color, but the crippling downside of only being usable on your commander. The card is fine. Not terrible, not busted, but interesting and potentially strong in the right situation.
But this variance is actually part of the problem (at least as far as I can tell). If the card is actually a game-winner in the starting hand, then the likelihood of this doesn't matter (unless its astronomical, which a simple draw seven out of a hundred alone is not, ignoring all mulligans or other shenanigans), the reasonable chance to create "non-games" is a valid problem... if it actually causes that, which is asserted and a question I don't feel qualified to chime in on.
But if the scenario is problematic as proposed the variance would just be part of the problem, not a negating factor.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
There is also the factor of it just costing 0, so it means your other mana is potentially freed up and it takes less cards to pull off a big explosive play which also is a factor towards card advantage.
Essentially what the purpose of a Jeweled Lotus serves is as a turbo-yet-narrow version of Lotus Petal but only for casting your commander. For example you can always go... Turn 1: Mountain, Jeweled Lotus, Purphoros, God of the Forge. Subsequent turns can be used to play other cards to crank up the pace of the game.
As any two-color, mono-color, or colorless commander that is 4 cmc or less now be played turn 1. And a lower CMC than 4 really only benefits 3 but also applies to 2 and 1 as you don't have to factor a land into the equation unless they are two-color. While for cards that cost 5 CMC or higher means they more or less have 1 or more turns being required to play it.
The common, tired, and intellectually dishonest argument to throw at this card is: "What if you draw it at the wrong time?". The reason its common is it parroted all the time as a way to try and show how a card is less likely to see use in a conversation around it. But the reason such an argumentative point is intellectually dishonest is that same argument can apply to many instances when the top card of your deck or your opening hand is not ideal in your current situation. After all how many times has the phrase "I was only [x] turns away from drawing [card]" when somebody loses? The retort one might try to bring up is that isn't the same, as certain cards always have value, but what if a boardsweeper is a dead draw because the current state of the game isn't really worth it and you would much rather have something else? And that is the thing that always gets missed about these situations is there is a lot of moving parts if your gonna say "what if you draw it at the wrong?" As the implication is there is an existing state that could be analyzed, but since there isn't this is like the equivalent of a Schrodinger's Magical Christmas Land in which it has technically everything but also nothing for you and your opponents exists, but since nobody has a concrete state of the game with actual information, it will always result in a pointless rabbit hole of argumenatation and wasted time. A sol ring in one scenario could be a dead draw, in another it can be the vital card needed to get a big play off the ground.
It is VERY relevant that Lotus is a dead draw later in the game. It is not just some throwaway downside, it is huge. Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, et al. are still useful if you didn't use them to get out to an explosive lead. This really is not, which is the entire problem with it.
Is Lotus powerful in the opener if your general can use 3 of the same color and can generate you enough of an advantage to offset archenemy status? Absolutely, and I personally have a couple such generals and will be trying this out.
Is Lotus worth a card at any other point in the game barring decks that make use of 0 cmc do-nothing artifacts? Unequivocally no.
Card is fine, people are going to overpay for it and be really sad that its not nearly worth the hype and continue to spit death-threats at WotC one way or another.
You're missing the point. I'm not by any means saying any creature is bad. I'm saying getting them out turn 1, with few exceptions, isn't GOOD. Especially since you're using a disposable resource to do it, that will not be available in almost all cases later on when you need to cast it again and it costs 2 more. Most commanders aren't going to be good to have out t1, with no protection. It will inevitably draw any available removal, and set you back even further due to commander tax. Strategically, for nearly all commanders, it's just not a good play. And late game, your deck should already be built to compensate for commander tax increases, so JL shouldn't be necessary there either. It truly adds nothing to most decks that they don't already have available in other, better, cards.
And to your second point, if you use JL to get your commander out t1, you've also lost 2 cards when that removal spell hits - your commander and JL.
1) Earlier than you would have cast the commander otherwise, or else
2) The same turn you would have cast the commander otherwise, but with more mana or resources available.
And this is faster than Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, and doesn't take a mana or life investment like Mana Vault, so yes, it absolutely gives almost every deck a boost no other card can compare to
I don't buy into the "but it makes you the archenemy" argument. Clearly that argument can be used to defend any über-powered card, and leads to a slippery slope.
I don't particularly like the "but it is dead lategame" argument either. That argument is true for most ramp effects, yet they still see plenty of play. The benefits clearly outweigh the drawback in this case.
The difference between traditional ramp and this card in the late game being that traditional ramp can at least play other cards, power out X spells, allow you to multi-spell, thin your deck, etc. Lotus does literally one thing. Which is a strong thing, sure, but the average case for it is going to be 'dead card in hand' since any given card is much more likely to NOT be in the opener. That's a really bad floor to risk for the ceiling offered.
Again, I like the card. I'm happy it exists. I'll be playing a couple in decks that can abuse it.
Its incredibly overrated though, and nowhere near worth its current price tag. $100+ is laughable for not even the best card in the set, in a set that will be opened probably more than any set in recent history. The foil full-art saw ebay listings of $800. People need to calm the hell down, cuz Black Lotus this ain't.
The floor ain't so bad when it requires you to already have your commander on the battlefield.
you'll be playing your commander multiple times during the game, and he'll be more expensive each time you do.
getting a "Black Lotus" in the endgame where your Commander is in the command zone, will oftentime allow you to recast it AND whatever you drew that same turn and that´s relevant enough to make it not a dead card.
If your commander is alive and well in the end game, it's very likely you're already winning anyway.
and every card is a bad topdeck sometimes.... there's no card that's always a great topdeck.... some get pretty close like Brainstorm or Ancestral Recall but outside stuff like that, there's nothing that will always be a good topdeck.
that said, I do agree that it's ridiculously overpriced, in general it's far worse than both Sol Ring and Mana crypt and likely not much better than Mana Vault as well.... If I luck out get a Jeweled Lotus from a booster or something while the price is that ridiculous, you can be sure that I'll sell it immediately.
If mana with restrictions is floated through steps, would it then convert to generic mana which could be used normally?
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