You joined this forum in June, have 5 posts to date,
So you’ve been essentially complaining against gatekeeping the franchise for many of your post...and then proceeded to tell someone their opinion isn’t valid because they haven’t been on these forums as long as you. You don’t know how long they’ve played the game. Or how long they’ve lurked on the forums before joining.
What your doing is the thing you claim to hate....your gatekeepeing.
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Wait...I think I just figured it out!
We're going back to Innistrad next year, right?
Innistrad has lots of zombies.
Therefore, Rick must be the new Odric!
Just look at the mechanics... It makes perfect sense!
Chances are all of these cards will be in the upcmoing Innistrad with different names, and these will be the alternate art/alternate name preemptively released promo variants!
Riddle solved!
Case closed!
If it's something as innocent as this, that would be great. Many aspects of my internets are exploding, and looking at Rick and replacing it with Odric, that eases some of the surprising stress I've had about Magic over the last couple of days.
But since we're in the Rumor Mill, who would the other cards translate to then? The next generation of Innistrad heroes?
I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around how anyone feels that the arguments against these are valid without being extremely immature:
1) These break immersion so they shouldn't exist: INVALID.
There are already tons of cards that do this. Additionally, who are you to say what can or can't exist in a game you didn't create? WotC can do whatever they want with their game, and there are plenty of people who think these are cool. Let other people enjoy things, you are not the center of the universe.
How are we or anyone supposed to decide what should and should not be in the game creatively if not by expressing our opinions about whether we want it in the game or not? It is worth everyone keeping in mind that there's always going to be parts of the game they don't like, but things can cross a line for people where they actively want it removed. People aren't forcing it to happen. They are expressing their preference.
WotC can do whatever they want with their game, but they aren't making for themselves. If WotC wants the community's support for their products they have to support the community at least a little in turn.
2) Slippery slope! They'll obviously print broken cards here eventually: INVALID.
They are VERY clearly aware of the need for limited availability cards to be incredibly safe. They learned their lesson from Nexus. These cards are terrible, and will break zero formats. Also, if these sell well (ie: they have incentive to make more) in spite of being this bad, they have LITERALLY zero reason to amp up the power level. The slippery slope argument is not only fallacious, but wildly illogical to boot.
Literally zero reason?
How about this: Broken/pushed cards sell.
Not literally zero reason then. Oops.
Broken cards are likely to happen by accident, as they have often happened. The number of card bannings we've seen haven't been something WotC wanted or planned, but rather something they allowed to happen by pushing the envelope in certain ways that have increased the chance of mistakes. Namely, WotC is incentivized to push hype chase cards that rake in big bucks and they have taken more risks with such cards.
Even if none of these WD cards are 'broken' as such, if they are sufficiently powerful to see widespread play, that's already kind of a problem. Because they are going to get expensive and hard to acquire fast.
3) Limited availability is bad! FOMO!: INVALID.
Every Magic product is limited availability. Some more than others. Secret Lairs especially. Is that ideal from a consumer standpoint? No, of course not.
I love it when people answer their own questions.
If something isn't good for consumers, shouldn't consumers be concerned a little?
Is it probably the most efficient way to meet demand without overprinting and thus wasting money on excess production? Absolutely, which is especially important for short-run products with higher print costs (you get discounts from printers for volume).
There was no great demand for something like Secret Lair before Secret Lair existed. WotC wasn't filling a hole, they were seizing an opportunity. If a product like this can't be produced within cost without limiting availability, maybe it shouldn't be made? And that's assuming that production costs for a more available Secret Lair would indeed be unreasonably burdensome, and not WotC just did it this way regardless because it made the most money for them. Which is a thing that for-profit companies have been known to do on occasion.
If you want this you'll buy it. If you don't want this you won't buy it. If you're indecisive and miss the (now generous) window, the secondary market exists and the price of singles in secret lairs has been pretty reasonable across the board outside of a rare few exceptions.
"If you don't like it, don't buy it" misses how much more power businesses have in the exchange than consumers. Especially with things like food and medicine, but even with entertainment media like this, people really want these products, but WotC doesn't give much of a ***** about one more customer's money among many. WotC can offer the product in a fashion that is far from ideal and people will still buy it, and it will often be worth it for those people, even, for that individual purchase. But people might still be getting ripped off, and meanwhile, people who don't like and don't buy can be ignored and pushed out of the game. And that's not even mentioning the way businesses can exploit people's vulnerabilities like addiction. This becomes especially problematic when it all combines to result in a shrinking focus on extracting as much easy money from heavily invested players who are willing to spend a lot over making the game broadly enjoyable and accessible.
The only way for consumers to realistically apply serious pressure to WotC over something they don't like is to organise as a community, help to encourage each other to resist the temptation to buy in, voice their specific concerns, and apply continued public pressure that makes the company look bad. You know, like they are doing.
It worked for SW Battlefront 2.
4) What happens if they somehow make a mistake and these become important game pieces!?: INVALID.
They already said they'd reprint them in in-universe form, and that they'd do it Godzilla-style so that there wouldn't be an 8x problem either. They're smart people, have some faith.
WotC's track record on reprinting cards to keep accessibility in check is spotty at best. This only amplifies an existing problem with accessibility, the defining problem of MtG for consumers, even.
5) International availability! Not everyone has equal access!: INVALID.
This is already an issue in Magic. This is nothing new. Countries with access to these might not have access to other things. That's the way the world works. Does it suck? Yes. Is it entirely reasonable given logistics? Absolutely. Will everyone who wants these be able to pick them up second hand? Definitely.
International availability for Secret Lair is worse than other products. They have been working to expand it over time, but it's still below usual. Everyone will theoretically be able to acquire these, but whether they will be to some extent prohibitively difficult to acquire for some people is another matter.
Wow. What makes everyone in the world entitled to get Magic cards (new or old) at the same price and rate of distribution?
That's a ridiculous argument, assumption, and a completely unrealistic expectation (for any product or service).
No one is making that argument. At all.
Do I complain that I can't get my favorite Malawi coffee, freshly squeezed tangelo juice, kiwi, coconut, or ripe cherries for cheap all year long when I reside in an area where none of them grow? By your logic, shouldn't I? I mean...they're all legal for a fruit salad! Instead, I'm happy I get apples and bananas at all, and I drank other coffees during the three year interim period I couldn't get what I really wanted to brew.
So your argument is "be glad what for what you can get"....what? You understand very few people are complaining about being able to have this, right? They don't care they can't have it, they are arguing that these cards are essentially put on their own reserved list that will be very hard to reprint in the future.
I've chosen not to buy this product line on purpose. I could buy hundreds of these with no issue and don't care that I'm missing out on some "investment opportunity" because I treat this as a game and not a retirement fund.
But seriously, globalization has really spoiled the lot of you complainers, and this is a perfect example of how ridiculous these complaint threads are.
As if WoTC owes you, me, or anyone else anything to begin with!
What's next?...A complaint thread about how some artists won't sign your cards for free?
As if Wizards doesn't have a right to make decisions about their own product distribution based on what research they determine is profitable for them (and not trivial community feedback from a small but vocal segment of players who for (insert random reason here) feel certain products aren't "fun", for them). The audacity!
Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz is less of a strawman than this argument.
Who among you thinks they're so much better than Maro at doing his job?
You all had a better game designs than Richard Garfield and your own printing facilities before all this began too I'm sure.
Hasbro is run by a bunch of game theory amateurs as well, right?
Geez. How ungrateful can you be?
You should all be polishing then kissing busts of their faces before saying a prayer every morning thanking them for contributing to your apparent need for this particular form of card-playing recreation! Don't like Magic anymore? Play some poker and try to make a profit that way. At least you won't have to build a multi-hundred to multi-thousand dollar deck to play!
So your next argument is "if you don't like it than leave" which in no way offers any real rebuttal nor conversation to any of the criticisms being discussed but instead is just a complaint about others not liking this product or the direction the game is going. Got it. It's awful argument, but I got it.
Having criticisms doesn't equate to hating the game nor the people who make it. Surprising, I know.
I'd tell those among you who can do a better job than Maro to please can stand up now, but I suspect you'll all remain seated in silence because deep down you all know you're just a bunch of know-it-all whiny armchair critics who either missed the boat on cards which are now out of your price range on the secondary market (which is a reflection of the immense increasing popularity of this game and your own neglect to buy them sooner, not poor market anticipation or printing decisions by Wizards), or/or because now you can't afford to keep up with every new product Wizards designs and releases which you apparently don't even want or need to begin with.
So now everyone is "whiny" because they either can't afford it or missed out on the opportunity to get it. You believe that people don't like what is happening here because of some investment opportunity? You actually believe that people don't like it because they can't buy it? Do I have that right? I hope I don't.
If you believe that what is being discussed has anything to do with "missing out" then you're not really paying attention.
Want my advice?
Focus on fundamental priorities at a time like this; what you can do and can get to feel emotionally and operationally secure, not what you can't get or the "what if" drama of possibly sitting at a table with a commander player who uses a general you don't like which isn't even competitive and shouldn't disrupt your in-game strategy. Honestly, if you get so easily emotionally triggered by these or other cards, just take a deep breath, don't buy them, ignore their existence if you must, and refuse to play with anyone else who wants to. Then perhaps you'll have that sublime epiphany when you're sitting all alone (or with likeminded haters) and finally see how petty and immature you look and feel afterward.
First of all, no. Second, people will continue to play the game, people can dislike certain aspects of what they enjoy but still enjoy it. Why you seem to believe that criticism equate to pure hatred and being "triggered" which is far more asinine than someone finding faults in something, which there are many here.
Meanwhile, I'm almost motivated to order extra copies of this product purely out of spite just so I can sell them at a markup to the have-nots who complain today that they don't want them but will eventually, almost inevitably regret not buying them when they were cheaper as they scramble to get them once secondary market supply starts to dwindle and prices climb quickly which those who are smart enough among us already know will almost certainly be the case!
Wait....let me get this straight. You are going to use more of your money because some rando out there doesn't like this? Then you go on to say they are the one being "triggered" by it and not realizing you just admitted that you were triggered into doing it by other people. Sounds like you're the one with the emotional response to it that needs to not be ruled by their hatred of random people on the internet.
EDIT: I honestly wish Wizards would finally print a Legendary artifact called The World's Smallest Violin so I could include at least one copy in every sideboard!
It's ironic considering you probably complained the most out of anyone else here. In fact it's quite strange that you decreed everyone to be nothing but whiny, complaining, triggered, arm-chair have-nots and offered zero in actual conversation. You insulted others over your entire illogical filled rant that in no way offered any substance whatsoever.
Please try and be a bit more civil and offer some actual conversation rather than just insulting people.
Why is it apparently not okay, offensive, or upsetting if someone plays these new TWD characters, but it's perfectly alright if someone plays an altered Liliana which also has the potential to "break the player's immersion" with non-Magic related, often trademarked character representations who we could argue equally have no business or reason for being on Magic cards?
The difference being that someone altering their own property is vastly different than WotC printing random cards with a crossover about a show that hasn't been popular in years. That's that singular person's property to do whatever they wish with it. Paint it, bedazzle it, turn it into a life counter, or burn it. That's on them to do what they wish with it.
These cards were designed primarily as collectibles, and perhaps for Commander (if any format, since they're obviously not good enough to be played elsewhere). As we know (or should know by now), Commander is supposed to be a casual and friendly format, so the resistance and hostility towards said cards is particularly strange and unfounded. It's okay to be a competitive commander player and only want to play with and against the best decks possible. In fact, I fit into this category and will post photos of any of my decks (twenty one and counting) for those who are curious. However, not everyone wants to play traditional Magic the same way some people like to play novelty Risk or Monopoly variants (which I personally consider abominations). That's just the way it is. Games change, evolve, merge with other worlds and cultural phenomena, and get discontinued at times for better or worse, so just accept it, live, and let live.
There's a flaw in your logic. These are not being created as strictly collectibles, they are intended to be actual game pieces. While you may play with silver border cards, usually under their own umbrella, they are not intended for normal play. The My Little Pony cards or the Hasbro promos from a Comic Con are intended far more as collectibles.
And no, most games do not do that. The only time a game does it is when they are desperate for it as a quick injection of cash as they believe they can squeeze just a bit more money out of not only their own fan base and potentially get money from another fan base. It is a way of throwing anything at the wall and to see what sticks. It's a rather transparent move.
Also, crossovers is not a property "evolving." It's not.
Put things into perspective and ask yourselves...
Will these cards being printed really break the mold of your meta, or will they simply put you on tilt and break your concentration?
Does it have to be either?
What are the odds that people you play with will even get these, and then how often, if ever will you expect to play against them given the current health crisis?
Isn't this really all about giving us more zombie tokens?
See how easily your blood pressure went back down?
On questions one through three, no. No one is complaining about having to see these or worrying about their meta. No one.
Question 4. No, it's not.
Question 5. No one's blood pressure is high. Did you notice how your questions were silly?
I was surprised because I expected alternate art copies of existing cards (lord of the undead, death baron, gravecrawler, undead warchief, etc).
But to get upset over this product when they're still essentially printing money? It wasn't worth the energy
They are printing money? We already know they'll reprint these eventually in non-TWD versions. Usually Secret Lairs shouldn't be bought, but this one especially has another reason why you shouldn't buy it. At some point they will reprint these cards. They will not be special.
I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around how anyone feels that the arguments against these are valid without being extremely immature:
Well you went the other direction with that so far.
1) These break immersion so they shouldn't exist: INVALID.
There are already tons of cards that do this. Additionally, who are you to say what can or can't exist in a game you didn't create? WotC can do whatever they want with their game, and there are plenty of people who think these are cool. Let other people enjoy things, you are not the center of the universe.
What does someone's idea of immersion have to do with other people enjoying things?
Which cards again break immersion before? Arabian Knights? That's essentially a fairy tail at this point, it's fantasy still. Again, that was when the game was young, people understand this.
2) Slippery slope! They'll obviously print broken cards here eventually: INVALID.
They are VERY clearly aware of the need for limited availability cards to be incredibly safe. They learned their lesson from Nexus. These cards are terrible, and will break zero formats. Also, if these sell well (ie: they have incentive to make more) in spite of being this bad, they have LITERALLY zero reason to amp up the power level. The slippery slope argument is not only fallacious, but wildly illogical to boot.
They didn't though. Remember Mana Crypt? That came from a book, we didn't see a reprint of it for 20 years, and they said they learned their lesson? Well they didn't and thenTrue-Name Nemesis was their "lesson learned" for cards in short print? Well they learned nothing and then did Nexus of Fate and then that became the new "lesson learned" (in a couple of ways). Nalathni Dragon was said to be their lesson learned for these and here we are with this Secret Lair. Fetches+shocks were a "lesson learned", then they did it again. Every time they do a free spell or free mechanic it's another "lesson learned", and then they do it again and then that becomes the new "lesson learned", and they do it again and then that becomes the new "lesson learned". Do you see the pattern?
Also, the idea that these are not strong and therefore that's okay in the future is a poor argument. These may be fine yes, but we are missing a card and that could be a problem. Death's Shadow was considered weak until someone broke it.
4) What happens if they somehow make a mistake and these become important game pieces!?: INVALID.
They already said they'd reprint them in in-universe form, and that they'd do it Godzilla-style so that there wouldn't be an 8x problem either. They're smart people, have some faith.
So then why didn't they just do it to begin with? It's definitely not because of aesthetics, else they wouldn't have done it to 20+ cards recently.
I just can't think of any angle that could validate the level of vitriol surrounding the product other than pure, unadulterated petulance and entitlement.
You and someone else keeps mentioning entitlement and I'm not seeing it in any of the criticisms being brought up. You need to point out where these "entitlements" are.
I guess people are inordinately stressed out right now and going stir-crazy in their parents' basement so all of that pent-up frustration has to go somewhere.
Hey look! Another insult rather than any real substance. Weird that those saying others are the ones making fun of the ones that want to buy this are the only ones that are insulting people. That's odd.
Its just weird that it goes HERE instead of somewhere more deserving, like the pandemic, or (in the US) the riots, or the election. Hell, within Magic even, you've got Jumpstart shortages and standard bannings that are more worth your time and energy.
You find it weird that people are talking about a Magic product on a Magic focused forum? Really? Why? Why is it weird? Why would you expect in a topic about a specific Magic product that there would be talks about the pandemic or the American election? There are other places to go for that conversation, like off topic section of this forum, or other sites altogether.
Also, did you just try your "there are more important things to worry about and therefore you can't worry about other things" line of logic again? Did you think people wouldn't notice? It didn't work once, why would you think it would work a second time? Didn't work the first time.
A problem or "dumpster fire" doesn't exist simply because you and a few other contrarians believe or say it does.
Question, you keep insulting others or belittling their arguments based off of the idea that they are in the minority or are complaining. Why do you keep doing that?
You would have a point if you didn't actually call for these cards to be made not legal in play. You were advocating to take away something for other players, players you will never meet, and you can expect to be called out for that.
Then what do you call bannings in Standard? Are players advocating to take away something from others then?
Honestly, I don't disagree that people will, and have overreacted at some point, but IMO, trying to gaslight
That's not what gaslighting is.
Pardon me for asking, but how would you know what is or isn't difficult to discuss?
You joined this forum in June, have 5 posts to date, and couldn't even rebuttal me beyond dismissing and calling me a strawman when you can't deny I'm correct in everything I said, so that makes you some sort of expert on the topics of supplemental products for collectors and the Reserved List?
With all due respect, I've been playing off and on for over twenty years, am heavily invested in this game, have more artist-signed cards than everyone you know combined, love and hate many aspects of Magic, and have no major qualms with any product I don't like, want to play with, or want to collect only for the sake of collecting. I simply don't purchase those products and that's that; how any normal person would react.
Did you just list off a bunch of things about yourself like it is in any way an argument? Why? Posts on a forum don't matter and it doesn't matter how much you've spent on the game or how many signed cards you have. Cool humble brag though, I guess.
The only gaslighting going on is from those who cry that "the sky is falling, Magic is slowly dying" every time some new product gets announced or released which rubs them the wrong way. We heard it when dual-faced cards were released, probably when planeswalkers and flip cards were released (though I wasn't playing during Lorwyn or Kamigawa), when rule changes, bannings, and unbannings occurred, etc. Personally, I'm happy with Secret Lair. I get what I want, ignore what I don't, and life goes on. It's certainly better than having to wait in line before the LGS opens on the release day of Commander's Arsenal or From The Vault, then having to win some sort of in-store raffle just to have the opportunity to buy one because stores never had enough supply to accomodate demand. That was a disaster...travelling all the way to a store, waiting, and potentially leaving empty handed because there were no preorders and every store marked the box sets up like crazy. Would you prefer that experience?
Again, you're using gaslighting wrong.
It seems as though your issue stems from the fact that anyone is complaining at all. See, you may be quite alright with not discussing Magic, or you may only want to talk about what you love about the game, but for others, like myself, we want to discuss what is wrong and right with the game, what we love and dislike. You seem to believe that criticism equates to hatred of it, like we don't love a game, problem is that if someone didn't like the game then they wouldn't stick with it.
I like conversations about the game. I want to get into heated discussions about why this Secret Lair is bad, but at the same time I'd love to talk about how good Dominaria was, how even though Magic's own Avengers were annoying from time to time I'd like to discuss certain story articles and how amazing they were.
You seem to take any criticism as if it is to make fun of something you enjoy, but the truth is that when you can talk about the good and the bad about something is when you can truly enjoy it. To only believe the sky is falling or that the everything is perfect (or anything in your life) is an ignorant mindset. The reason why people have complaints is because they like something, or were hoping to enjoy it but were disappointed.
No one is saying that someone cannot enjoy this product. They can, and I hope they find the money worth it. For me I will not buy Secret Lairs as I find they don't offer enough for the price they set them at (I am not paying $30 for a play set Lightning Bolts). For others though they see issues with this product, because there are issues, and to say that they are strictly complaining out of some "entitlement" or because they "can't afford it" shows you do not wish to partake in the discussion and only wish to complain and insult.
Either way, please stop with the hyperbole
This is supposed to be ironic, right?
as nothing "detrimental to the game" has been committed here, and if you honestly perceive these cards as such, it's clear you're too new too the game or simply bad at evaluating card strength in an already powercrept degenerate metagame. This isn't me trying to be righteous, these are the facts. Lastly, I don't know what "promise to not do things" you're referring to. Sounds pretty vague and ambiguous. What year did this occur in? Was it also written on a promo foil scroll inked in Phyrexian scripture and human blood?
Might want to look into how they've gone over the mistakes of Mana Crypt, Nalathni Dragon, True-Name Nemesis, and Nexus of Fate and have gone on to say how those were mistakes. There's a reason they stopped doing promos like Nalathni Dragon. Seriously, just look it up.
I mean, this product doesn't exist in a vacuum. As I've said before. We already know that it doesnt stop at secret lairs. There's a whole crossover set announced with DnD. Like, we already know part of the future. This isn't fearmongering. And if this trend continues, because enough people continue buying, then crossovers will become more and more common, which will affect my experience of the game no matter which products I specifically skip out on. (Having to skip out on a major release, because it's not a Magic set is already kinda unprecedented, not counting Arabian Nights.) And if it really does hurt Magic in the long run, then it is my concern as a player no matter whether I'll buy this product or not.
It's a similar thing with "just don't play with these cards". I cannot not play with a card if my opponent has it in its deck. I turned off the godzilla cards in Arena, because they annoy me like hell, but I can't turn off cards in RL and especially not cards that have no Magic alternate skin.
You joined this forum in June, have 5 posts to date,
So you’ve been essentially complaining against gatekeeping the franchise for many of your post...and then proceeded to tell someone their opinion isn’t valid because they haven’t been on these forums as long as you. You don’t know how long they’ve played the game. Or how long they’ve lurked on the forums before joining.
What your doing is the thing you claim to hate....your gatekeepeing.
Yeah but they have more artist-signed cards than anyone you know combined. They know what they're talking about.
Pardon me for asking, but how would you know what is or isn't difficult to discuss?
You joined this forum in June, have 5 posts to date,
Been here (in some form) for at least 5 years - but with all the transitioning that went on with the forums here in terms of the platform used, I didn't know if my account survived, and if I did, I didn't know my old login details or anything, so I thought "screw it," and just made a new one.
And, on the point I stated about discussions being difficult, I meant in general - in any platform where said discussions take place - whether here, Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, etc, some subjects are very venom laced.
Wait...I think I just figured it out!
We're going back to Innistrad next year, right?
Innistrad has lots of zombies.
Therefore, Rick must be the new Odric!
Just look at the mechanics... It makes perfect sense!
Chances are all of these cards will be in the upcmoing Innistrad with different names, and these will be the alternate art/alternate name preemptively released promo variants!
Riddle solved!
Case closed!
If it's something as innocent as this, that would be great. Many aspects of my internets are exploding, and looking at Rick and replacing it with Odric, that eases some of the surprising stress I've had about Magic over the last couple of days.
But since we're in the Rumor Mill, who would the other cards translate to then? The next generation of Innistrad heroes?
It probably is!
This is why I don't understand why so many people are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Who knows... Perhaps those who are complaining are even working for Wizards, and are trying to draw more attention to the product in hopes that the apparent controversy helps boost sales. After all, infamy lasts longer than fame, and bad attention is still good free advertising as evidenced by the spike in sales and prices of recently banned collectible cards which are no longer playable due to cancel culture for having "offensive art" (if such a thing even exists, but that's an entirely different philosophical discussion regarding the subjective nature of what may or may not be offensive and how we interpret then process external stimuli).
Honestly, Wizards marketing executives are probably dancing in their socially distanced bubbles now with glasses of champagne in celebration of how much talk this product is getting and how they can already feel confident they made the correct decision. After all, it's a guaranteed seller (albeit, not for everyone which is obvious, and the same could be said about any product they release. I for example had zero interest in Jump/Start and simply ignored it instead of coming here to complain about those few new commander staples being included which I couldn't get at the price I wanted and which are already super high that I never even needed to begin with since my decks are healthy enough without them). Regardless, initial mistakes like low print runs can always be easily corrected with reprints (assuming they're even mistakes and not intentional as a way to boost hype and inflate the secondary market which Wizards must realize when high is a barometer of their success at producing a product people want, which in turn draws in investors adding momentum to the cycle).
This is what I think...
Rick is Odric
Darryl is likely the new Legendary Huntmaster of the Fells or Ulrich
Glenn is likely the new Geist of Saint Traft
Michonne is likely the new Legendary Grim Flayer
Neegan is likely a new creature Sorin, or a legendary Falkenrath Aristocrat
Comforting, isn't it?
To consider that possibility
Even if I'm wrong, there's still nothing to panic or be fearful about.
To all concerned who are (in my opinion) overreacting...
I beg you to relax over this.
It's not worth risking hypertension.
Brew some chamomile tea, find some indica, listen to Chopin or pick up your own acoustic guitar, play a game with fewer less complex game pieces like chess...whatever it takes.
It's pointless, if not counter-productive to spend energy being upset at this decision.
It was made, seemingly despite previous complaints regarding similar issues which apparently fell on deaf ears.
Conclusion: Our input and criticisms here are effectively inconsequential, at least for the most part, and that's just something we'll all have to live with. Yelling at the sky for rain during a dry season does nothing when nobody is up there listening.
Let's at least be happy for the gifted actors whose likenesses have now been immortalized in a game so many people love!
Can't we be happy for Andrew Lincoln and his co-stars who were all great in their roles on the show?
Nobody at Wizards cares if some players don't like the show or if they didn't earn that level of showcasing
Should we expect them to care if we're also upset at whoever among the actors has never even played a game of Magic? Why bother?
For all we know, the actors more upset than people here because they never consented to being associated with this game (and by extension the toxic elements and backlash hyperbole of gaming culture) or were even included in the decision to having their character's cards printed.
What if, hypothetically, Wesley Crusher appeared as a Star Trek Secret Lair card?
Considering that's a series with time travel, portals, other worlds and dimensions, would such a crossover be more appropriate than The Walking Dead "invading" the Magic megaverse?
Wil Wheaton even plays Magic (or at least he did at some point) and has also culturally crossed-over before to the Big Bang Theory (which everyone I know thought was absolutely hilarious). But I digress...
Why care if Wizards is making the same mistakes they used to?
They're doing so knowingly at least, and that's their prerogative.
Rest assured, time will heal all wounds.
People complained about the Godzilla lands.
Personally, I don't like or understand the appeal of Guru Lands but won't hate on their existence or the people who want to buy them.
They're literally basic lands which cost hundreds of dollars but function the same as other worthless cardboard.
Nice art and controversial artist notwithstanding, quite frankly, there's nothing "guru" about them in my eyes.
They're lands for suckers who want to show off and have more money than they know what to do with, but anyone who is smart and buys them wouldn't even play with them, that's the catch most people don't understand. They'll never help you win games, but they might score you points impressing friends or invite theft. One thing is for certain: The more they're played, the more they're at risk of going down in value, but if they're not, they'll always at least retain or go up in value.
Case in point some cards should never be played with and were never meant to be, regardless of whether the border is black, white, silver, or gold.
The color of card borders is illusory to a true collecting connoisseur
Back to the specific topic at hand...
People who claim certain things are inherently "wrong" with regards to these TWD cards (or the similar aforementioned poorly distributed in the past promotional cards like mana crypt, etc) certainly don't speak for me or the majority of players (not that I necessarily represent the majority of players either because I play this game on a level few seem to understand).
How do I know this?
Because the majority of Magic players don't even know about these cards yet!
In fact, contrary to popular belief (or rather, the beliefs of players who congregate here and on similar forums), the majority of Magic players don't even read these forums or look at spoilers, let alone cling to Wizards' twitter and reddit feeds 24/7 like some of us who are clearly too invested, obsessed, and distracted by this game and the perpetual stream of updates to game pieces, mechanics, formats, and the overall environment which are virtually impossible for anyone to keep up with (unless they don't work and have no other social life or family obligations) to properly put things into perspective.
Realistically, the only people who should be upset about the low distribution (or lack thereof in certain countries) are those who solely identify as investors and collectors. The people who want to buy these, perhaps in bulk, to hold onto, then unload years from now as supply becomes scarce and they go up.
Players who never keep extra product sealed and have difficulty getting these cards for any reason never really needed them anyway, because nobody needs them. Nobody was missing or asking for these mechanical designs up until now, nobody among the player base asked for TWD cards to be produced, and nobody would have them if we weren't already living in a Twilight Zone alternate timeline where they weren't printed, so does it really change anything if you're stuck in this particular instance of space and time, you're in a have-not country where this doesn't get shipped, and other random people in other countries have them either to play with, leave in a binder, or keep on their shelves?
How would that in any way change your life for the worse?
Because you know that someone out there has something, or has access to something which you don't?
Boo-Hoo-Hoo!
You can't
Always get
What you want...
(Sing it with me now!)
To reiterate what the objective, experienced, critically-thinking, profit-making, cultured, game-enthusiastic, mature adults in the room agree upon, these aren't format warping game pieces in any way, and if you choose not to buy them for any reason, you don't have to regret that decision either. If you suspect you will, or have distain or angst towards whomever does own them, you may need to seek professional therapy to deal with those internal anger issues which are obviously causing misdirected frustration at a game manufacturer (and their other, happier clients) for, of all things, producing game pieces which some (but not all) players like (which is the case with cards from literally every set which gets printed).
These cards will change your life about as much as...
Yoda randomly appearing in SoulCalibur 4
Arnold as the T-800 being in Mortal Kombat 11
And look what happened to the Street Fighter world over the years! Have you seen the Roster in Marvel vs Capcom 3? (would they keep making these games and adding more characters if they weren't fun to play, popular, and profitable?)
Do those games (still) upset you too, and if so, ask yourselves, why?
Fun fact....I recently downloaded Eddie Murphy in a Delirious costume for WWE 2K20!
His move set may not be the best, but seeing him walk down the entrance ramp still makes me smile <- Hint: this is what matters most to people who play games for the right reason (recreational fun above all else)
Remember when they added that invasive new marshmallow shape into your box of Lucky Charms?!
Did General Mills betray it's consumers by changing how many colors were in your cereal bowl?
Why wasn't everybody who ate cereal, or anybody among consumers for that matter polled before they made that huge game-changing decision?
Wasn't 7 supposed to be the lucky number?!
Who cares?
Companion mechanic effectively gave some players an 8th card in hand!
My point is, Wizards and Leprechauns can correct those mistakes, and we can always pick out the marshmallows we don't like to play with...I mean eat!
This is simply what happens when cultural ideas intersect and there's an opportunity for profit.
Consumers want more colors, sounds, sparkles, border patterns, gimmicks, and gum with their cards!
It's all just eye-candy and other forms of mental stimulation.
TWD Magic cards are an example of good product marketing, something Hasbro and Wizards clearly knows much more about that I would assume most people on this forum. They want to draw in new players (as always) and figure fans who are enjoying the final season of TWD and don't know about Magic cards or who've heard about them but never played, may feel more inclined to now that familiar faces are on cards, particularly commander-esque cards which can be built around for fun, multiplayer, casual games, which often exclude the players who apparently don't even want to see these cards exist to begin with. That's the irony... The people who want them and the people who don't will likely never even be sitting at the same table!
Should we blame businesses for trying to make profit when that's their primary intent and function (if successful)?
Y'know what old saying... "If you can't beat em, join em"?
This is where I (and other smart players who are in it for the endgame) follow the adage and you fail; Where I keep trading up into older staples and growing my portfolio, and you keep buying into Standrad then trading at a loss as the new trendy netdeck-of-the-week keeps emerging and eclipsing other good cards which people are too apprehensive to even try using, cards which I pick up when they bottom out and then flip back six months to six years later when the combo piece gets printed, the buyout begins for those late to the party, and my copies go up eight to twenty times in value.
Other people are happy
Other people are having fun
How does their fun diminish yours?
Is it some sort of zero-balance equation where you and your opponent who plays cards you don't like can't BOTH have fun?
What a novel concept!...Two (or more) people, playing a game, for the sake of playing and having fun in the process!
Isn't that the primary purpose of playing any game?
If you're playing Magic solely for the competition aspect, then again these won't bother you because your competitive opponents likely won't play them, and if they do, you'll seemingly be at an advantage since they're mechanically sub-par by today's standards.
Just know in advance that by neglecting to buy these, you will be missing out on an opportunity to trade them back at a profit later for the cards you actually do want but don't want to pay for in cash now because they're already higher in price than you believe they should be. As they say with any newly hyped product destined for appreciation, you have to get in on the ground floor, that's now.
There's always two games being played...
The game on the battlefield, and the market game.
Am I the only one who buys cards he doesn't want to play with while they're low so I can trade them back for other pieces later once they go up?
Quite frankly, in the grand scheme of things, the latter is more important to me, and should be more important to all of you too, but if you still care more about going 5-0 at the next standard event than you do about amassing a million dollars or more in easy-to-store equity which goes up in value much faster than most mutual funds, you should be focusing on more formats.
My comment about having a lot of signed cards was simply to illustrate that I have a vast and diverse portfolio of cards, both old and new, both competitive and forgotten, many of which I don't like, many of which I never play with or intended to play with, but were still simply acquired as part of a now very valuable ongoing collection project. The details aren't important, but you can be certain I know what I'm talking about and wasn't trying to diminish the Magic knowledge of younger players of the "common folk" (which was your label, not mine) who may not have been following this game as long as I have or who know less about collecting (at no fault of their own) than I do through decades of first hand experience. This has nothing to do with trying to make anyone jealous or you thinking I'm some sort of Magic elitist who wants to brag. On the contrary, I'm trying to help and offer good constructive advice to whomever will listen which has worked for me about collecting and trading up for profit to share what could also be a profitable experience for others who play this game differently than I do, as opposed to languishing over the perpetual frustrations of getting caught in the cycle of playing paper Standard which more experienced players know is a trap inside a sinkhole for losing money.
At this moment, I'd like to offer a Special and Thankful shout-out to 'Markers', who is the one who motivated me years ago to build up my signatures collection and take my collecting more seriously, which I have been.
I'll conclude with this for those who are still upset.
Put your anger aside, think logically and critically about every dollar you spend on particular cards, and figure out why it's beneficial not to miss certain opportunities more than others, and buy cards you may not even like or want to support for being culturally offensive. This is no different than a limited special edition sneaker than you don't want to wear and nobody needs to run faster but will still go up in value. Nowadays the long term market increases are all about rare promos, Commander staples, and Reserved list cards. Either use that knowledge to your own advantage, or be stubborn on principle and lose out. You can treat Magic as a game and also as a retirement fund (they're not mutually exclusive). The choice is yours.
Hmm I guess my opinion is going to be unpopular... but here goes
I am actually mildly excited about the whole IP , platform divergent thing that this TWD SLD represents.
They can actually build whole TCGs out of other IPs using the MTG resource system.
Its like the old scrylist magazines (terrible stuff) where they try to play decks from different TCGs together (it normally made zero sense since the resource systems were totally different)
But MTG's resource system is pretty open. You know how Maro has these sessions where they fit characters to the colour pie (I think he talked about it in some article about how innistrad was build from the ground up) the resaon for this is that magic's colour system is more psychological profiling. So many characters can fit in. The only weird part in terms of immersion is the sorcery card type. But even then it is just an instant with different timing restrictions. Tech can easily fall into artifacts, and we already have vehicles and equipment. Myself I have always fantasized about wuxia (chinese martial art storie) characters made into mtg cards and in a way portal 3 kingdoms was just a crossover into "romance of the three kingdoms" back in the day.
So this development is both intriguing and scary.
So I really like this development... but I still hope Magic's core lore will survive.
I'm a Vorthos player. I play the game but I consume mostly because I enjoy exploring the themes, characters and setting. The lack of these being just "skins" and the fact that they are not silver-border, and therefore optional, bothers me greatly. These factors, as well as the FOMO, limited distribution, and response to the problem by WotC is all just too much. I've been slowly buying less MtG in recent years and the release of this product will only make my consumption even less limited.
Fellow EDH players beware: if you play with these cards I will consider it my personal mission to knock you out *of the game, even if I have to go down in flames along with you. There shall be no Quarto.
"This product doesn't appeal to me, therefore I will bully anyone who enjoys it."
Thanks for succinctly summing up your side's entire argument.
It's a game after all. What's the matter? Afraid the new deck you plan to build with these cards is gonna become absolutely worthless?
You should be.
Being a bully player will ruin and kill the game faster and more effectively than any crossover set or banning.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Hmm I guess my opinion is going to be unpopular... but here goes
I am actually mildly excited about the whole IP , platform divergent thing that this TWD SLD represents.
They can actually build whole TCGs out of other IPs using the MTG resource system.
Its like the old scrylist magazines (terrible stuff) where they try to play decks from different TCGs together (it normally made zero sense since the resource systems were totally different)
But MTG's resource system is pretty open. You know how Maro has these sessions where they fit characters to the colour pie (I think he talked about it in some article about how innistrad was build from the ground up) the resaon for this is that magic's colour system is more psychological profiling. So many characters can fit in. The only weird part in terms of immersion is the sorcery card type. But even then it is just an instant with different timing restrictions. Tech can easily fall into artifacts, and we already have vehicles and equipment. Myself I have always fantasized about wuxia (chinese martial art storie) characters made into mtg cards and in a way portal 3 kingdoms was just a crossover into "romance of the three kingdoms" back in the day.
So this development is both intriguing and scary.
So I really like this development... but I still hope Magic's core lore will survive.
Right? This is super exciting, and my mind has been awhirl with the possibilities. I tend to be the one who buys cards for my playgroup since I work at a singles retailer, and one of my friends is a greasy super-zealous Nintendo nerd who would DIE if I could get him a Link commander. One of them is a giant black dude who was pretty torn up about Chadwick Boseman dying and would probably cry if there was a Black Panther legend. I personally would live for the meme of fastfood crossovers like Ronald McDonald and The Burger King making it into the game.
One of my friends at WotC was absolutely one of the drivers behind the (now fallen through because JKR is a bigot) Harry Potter crossover, and I think I know who pitched the idea behind Skyrim being in Kaldheim as well.
I'm more than willing to pay a licensing premium for novelty bull***** that makes specific people in my life inordinately happy <3
I'm a Vorthos player. I play the game but I consume mostly because I enjoy exploring the themes, characters and setting. The lack of these being just "skins" and the fact that they are not silver-border, and therefore optional, bothers me greatly. These factors, as well as the FOMO, limited distribution, and response to the problem by WotC is all just too much. I've been slowly buying less MtG in recent years and the release of this product will only make my consumption even less limited.
Fellow EDH players beware: if you play with these cards I will consider it my personal mission to knock you out *of the game, even if I have to go down in flames along with you. There shall be no Quarto.
"This product doesn't appeal to me, therefore I will bully anyone who enjoys it."
Thanks for succinctly summing up your side's entire argument.
It's a game after all. What's the matter? Afraid the new deck you plan to build with these cards is gonna become absolutely worthless?
You should be.
Being a bully player will ruin and kill the game faster and more effectively than any crossover set or banning.
Fair point. Let's just say that I save it for special occasions. and people.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I feel like the people in this thread who are like "it's their game, they can do whatever they want" and "let people have their fun" are being pretty strawmanny and virtue-signally. Yes, they can do whatever they want - they're the company that makes the game, duh. And yes, if your friends really like something, you should probably not be an ******** and bully them for it. Wow, I feel so morally superior right now.
You would have a point if you didn't actually call for these cards to be made not legal in play. You were advocating to take away something for other players, players you will never meet, and you can expect to be called out for that.
You're doing a great job at painting people who are against this as the baddies, but again, this is not really about taking away other people's fun. It's about how Magic handles its own IP. With a few (and at this point very old) exceptions like Arabian Nights and Portal Three Kingdoms, Magic has been built on top of its own worlds and creative - referencing existing things, but never straight-up incorporating them whole cloth. Many players (including me) became fans of Magic because of this aspect. Mechanically unique cards from other IPs with no Magic universe equivalents break this convention, "taking away" something that people liked - not everyone, of course, but a decent enough chunk of the playerbase. It's a bit unfair to ignore these voices and be like "well, but what about these other people? They like it, so shut up, you're being a bully." In contrast to some other recent topics where this kind of conflict shows up, this one doesn't touch on basic human rights or anything, so I think it's reasonable to also respect the people who are against these developments.
In my opinion, cards from other IPs should always be opt-in, because they are not "core" Magic. That means either silver border (not legal by default, but negotiable with your play group) or as a "skin" of a Magic IP equivalent (i.e. the Godzilla treatment). I don't personally like the Godzilla cards, but I still get there's a group of people who like them. In Arena, I can turn the skins off so I only see the Magic versions, and in paper, I can at least find solace in the fact that I'm not forced to used the crossover versions when running them in my own deck. This crossover should absolutely have been done in the same way, and the explanation Maro has given ("not as aesthetically pleasing") is pretty flimsy and suggests a lack of care about the game's creative integrity.
Here's the thing: These are absolutely still 'opt-in.' They will never be good enough to be required for competitive play, and they're barely playable in the only other format they're legal in. You don't need them. You are not being forced to get them if you want to compete or keep up with your friends at the kitchen table.
Meanwhile, they will make a solid subsection of the community VERY happy, just like the Godzilla cards, and if they do somehow manage to get broken years from now they already said they would reprint them with in-universe names. Making them silver-border automatically means that you can't play them in pickup games, which by default means that the vast majority of people who would otherwise play them will not.
There is some validity to the argument that these should've been done Zilortha-style, but why bother when it makes the cards uglier and skipping that step hurts literally no one anywhere, at all, ever? You would absolutely not hate them less if they had a second name under them. Do not lie about that, no one believes you.
Every argument anyone makes against these very cleanly boils down to 'These aren't my cup of tea so no one else should get to enjoy them either.'
We keep saying 'let people like things' and its not getting through to people. Let. People. Like. Things.
Fun is not a zero-sum game, just because someone else gets something nice that you're not a fan of does not mean that your fun is diminished. If it makes you unhappy for someone else to get something, you need to take a long hard look at yourself.
You would absolutely not hate them less if they had a second name under them. Do not lie about that, no one believes you.
Yes I would, and by baselessly insinuating that I wouldn't just to strenghten your position, you're being disingenuous. I've even given my reason here:
Quote from soramaro »
In Arena, I can turn the skins off so I only see the Magic versions, and in paper, I can at least find solace in the fact that I'm not forced to used the crossover versions when running them in my own deck.
Yes, I am not "forced" to use them, but then again, you're not "forced" to use any specific Magic card (except for basic lands I guess). But just to give an example: I really like Negan's effect and I think it would be fun to build a commander deck around him - but I don't like that he's an IP crossover. The ideal solution to this is having both the crossover version and the Magic version readily available so both players who like TWD and those who don't have a choice. That's what this boils down to. When managed properly, this shouldn't be a problem - print the Magic version ahead of time, or both at the same time, or at the very least release these cards along with a statement like "these cards will be given Magic canon versions within the next year" or so.
Every argument anyone makes against these very cleanly boils down to 'These aren't my cup of tea so no one else should get to enjoy them either.'
We keep saying 'let people like things' and its not getting through to people. Let. People. Like. Things.
Can you please stop trying to paint in black and white to make yourself look like "the good guy." As I've said, it's not about "not letting people like things", it's about making solutions that "let people like things" while not excluding others that don't like those things.
I can barely wait for the eventual Secret Lair: Back to the Future!
Just think of the flavorful possibilities!...
DeLorean, Time Machine 5
Artifact - Vehicle
8/5
Crew 2
Whenever DeLorean attacks, roll a 6-sided die. If you roll 1 to 5, go back in time that many turns. If you roll 6, restart the game (reset the board state as needed). If you've travelled to the future, DeLorean gains flying.
Flux Capacitor, 3
Legendary Artifact
When flux capacitor enters the battlefield put a mile counter on it.
At the beginning up your upkeep, double the number of mile counters on Flux Capacitor.
Whenever a crewed vehicle attacks, if Flux Capacitor has 88 or more mile counters on it, restart the game with Flux Capacitor and a 1/1 white human teenager token with vigilance under your control, then take an extra turn at the beginning of your first end step.
Marty's Hoverboard, 3
Vehicle
20/15
Crew 4
Creatures crewing hoverboard gain reach, haste, and vigilance, and can attack or block as though they're not tapped.
Hoverboard can't attack opponents who only control islands
You may remove a counter from a teenager rather than paying Marty's Hoverboard's crew cost
Biff, 3BW
Legendary Creature - Geriatric Human Bully
3/3
When Biff enters the battlefield, each opponent loses 1 life, put a +1/+1 counter on Biff for each life lost this way.
At the beginning of each combat, goad target creature.
Whenever Biff attacks and isn't blocked, ask that opponent "What's the matter McFly? Chicken?"
If Biff is Geriatric on the battlefield and you go back in time, put Biff to the top of your library, and cards named Biff enters with the creature type Adult instead with a manure counter, and target opponent sacrifices a non-teenager creature
If Biff is Adult on the battlefield and you back in time, put Biff to the top of your library, and cards named Biff enter with the creature type Teenager instead with a manure counter
Creatures with manure counters have infect
Marty McFly, Temporal Abductee, WW
Legendary Creature - Teenager Human Slacker
4/1
Partner with Doc Brown
When Marty McFly crews a Vehicle, they each gain Protection from Bullies until end of turn.
If Marty McFly is on the Battlefield and you go back in time, Put Marty McFly onto the Battlefield. If you've previously gone back in time this game, target opponent creates a token copy of Marty McFly.
Doc Brown, Mad Scientist, WRU
Legendary Creature - Geriatric Human Scientist
2/3
Partner with Marty McFly
Geriatrics can't block or be blocked by Teenagers
When Doc Brown, Mad Scientist attacks, draw a card.
When Doc Brown, Mad Scientist Crews DeLorean, Time Machine, flip a coin. It if comes up heads, take an extra turn after this one. If it comes up tails, rolls a 6-sided die, go back in time a that many turns, and target opponent draws two cards.
Whenever Doc Brown is dealt damage, targeted, or destroyed by a Time Paradox, say "Great Scott!"
Time Paradox, 4
Instant
Put target Teenager to the top of it's owner's library or Destroy target non-teenager, then Scry 2
Duelist Magazine, 2
Legendary Publication - Almanac
Equip 3
At the beginning of each upkeep, create a treasure token and put a +1/+1 counter on equipped creature
If a Human you control is equipped with Duelist Magazine and go back in time, put the equipped creature onto the battlefield, and put Duelist Magazine to the top of your library. If you go back to 1994, increase the value of your Magic card collection exponentially.
Marvin Berry, Chuck's Non-existent Cousin, BB
Adult Human Musician
2/2
Whenever Marty McFly equips a Guitar, Phone your most musically talented cousin and remind them you exist
Marvin Berry has all activated abilities of musicians in graveyards
They can actually build whole TCGs out of other IPs using the MTG resource system.
I'm going to disagree with Magic needing that sort of thing, but if you are looking for a card game with lots of different IP in it then Weiss Shwarz does that very thing. It has Adventure Time, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure ick, Sword Art Online, and others. (This is in no way telling you to stop playing Magic) I have no idea how the game plays or how good it is. If you want that sort of thing (Weiss Shwarz or this Secret Lair) and this makes you happy then go and buy it. Good on you for getting joy out of it.
Personally I find all that does is dilute the product when you keep introducing crossovers, as if it was admitting you can't sell your product normally. Usually when an IP goes for heavy crossovers or introducing new things constantly it reveals the IP is having far more issues than it's showing, it wants to keep people around that are leaving and if the rumors are true that they were doing this during 2017/2018 when they had multiple failures it goes to show a bit of the desperation. You can find examples of this with Fairly Odd Parents and Scooby Doo. The former introduced more and more main characters and the later has plenty of crossovers with WWE (this had a lot of crossovers like with Surfs Up where Vince McMahan, as an otter, talks about milking a fish for its milk with a visual of the otter drinking milk from the fish directly), Supernatural, Jetson, Flintstones, and then of course back in the day where they had celebrity guests constantly.
Another issue of the crossovers comes with the previous decade with the push for microtransactions. It is a way of trying to not get more money, but instead to get ALL the money and squeezing the fan base more and more. The microtransaction thing becomes even more of an apt description over the past year with Magic as they've been pumping out product like rabbits breeding. Arena is chalk full of those now.
Some crossovers are appropriate, yes, (I've been waiting on a Psych x Monk crossover episode/movie forever), but that's when the IPs being brought together are appropriate for each other or have similarities in some way. Even wild ones, like Scooby Doo x Supernatural (never saw the show) while a wild combination have elements that work for each other to work that way, or for example when the shows are owned by the same company, Hanna Barbara being an example of this or the most recent Scooby Doo movie or Cartoon Network when they brought all their cartoons together in little commercials to show they live together in the same world.
With this crossover specifically there really isn't anything connecting the two in any way other than both have zombies and humans.
Then of course they had to just create a card that actually is good in this and will see Commander play, potentially more than that. We've already stepped into the issues of why they stopped doing this kind of thing a long time ago. It took them zero products before they did the thing for the reason they stopped. Yay.
Here's the thing: These are absolutely still 'opt-in.' They will never be good enough to be required for competitive play, and they're barely playable in the only other format they're legal in.
A) You don't know that yet. If history has told us anything it's that Magic players are garbage at gauging quality of cards.
B) Even if that's true. It's only true for now. Keep doing this for long anough and the next Nexus of Fate will slip through. Tarmogoyf was done as a gimmicky "hint at a new card type" card that nobody expected to be a constructed powerhouse. Oops. Especially with cards that are supposed to be flashy and gimmicky like, you know, these kinda secret lair crossovers, the chance for them accidentally being broken is not that bad.
C) Regarding these being opt-in. This is literally only true for the godzilla crossovers or the Walking Dead crossovers. But what about the upcoming DnD set, which will be standard legal. How opt-in is that? I have already decided not to buy anything from that set, but honestly the prospect of playing a "crossover" standard for how-many-months on arena is less than appealing. This isn't about "giving some people a treat" anymore. This is about the crossovers going to be an integral part of an entire standard season.
There is some validity to the argument that these should've been done Zilortha-style, but why bother when it makes the cards uglier and skipping that step hurts literally no one anywhere, at all, ever?
I mean, adding that second name also doesn't hurt anyone, so this is a zero sum argument at best. (Personally I believe that these cards being SL exclusive is going to "hurt" some people in the same way legacy and vintage have a high barrier of entry and the reserved list "hurting" people, not to mention the potential damage to the brand.)
Oh you're not wrong, the average player has absolute no grasp of what makes a card good. There have already been people screeching about how Rick is the Nexus of Fate of crossovers already. Like... really? Are we looking at different cards?
Tarmogoyf isn't a great card for illustrating your point though, it was slotted in at the very last minute instead of Planeswalkers because they didn't feel comfortable printing them yet. Tarmo got absolutely zero testing. I have more faith in the people who make the best game in the world than to make the same mistake with a limited-release specialty card. Even then, they've already stated that they'd reprint them with in-universe names if necessary. Which would admittedly be too slow if these were legal in a competitive format with a weak enough card pool to where these might break in. But they're not.
The only thing I can see ever becoming a problem is people who were indecisive about whether they wanted these during the window, and are unwilling to interact with the secondary market (where the individual singles will absolutely be reasonably priced. Other than maybe the tokens. Because those are DOPE). I don't consider new players who start after the window to be a legitimate issue, since one can't reasonably expect to find sealed product for every set in Magic's history.
As for the DnD set, sorry you've already made up your mind knowing literally nothing about the set other than its theme. That sounds like a pretty limiting way to enjoy the game, but to each their own do your thing dude. I suppose there are probably people who pass on Innistrad because they don't like horror tropes. My perspective? DnD fits perfectly within Magic's sphere stylistically, and there have already been copious crossovers in the opposite direction, so it sounds to me like it will be a super good fit. I don't actually give a damn about DnD personally, but iconic monsters like Tiamat or the Terrasque would be dope to see, or even just an increased focus on stereotypical DnD things like... Dungeons and... Dragons. I'd be inordinately jazzed to see gem dragons for each color, like we used to back in Mirage. Or a Saga-adjacent mechanic for Dungeons where you do certain tasks to advance them for rewards.
Oh you're not wrong, the average player has absolute no grasp of what makes a card good. There have already been people screeching about how Rick is the Nexus of Fate of crossovers already. Like... really? Are we looking at different cards?
Who is saying this? Who are these people?
Tarmogoyf isn't a great card for illustrating your point though, it was slotted in at the very last minute instead of Planeswalkers because they didn't feel comfortable printing them yet. Tarmo got absolutely zero testing. I have more faith in the people who make the best game in the world than to make the same mistake with a limited-release specialty card.
They've made that mistake multiple times, and also Tarmogoyf is pretty tame to some of the cards we've been getting lately. Even when a card or mechanic is tested they are becoming far stronger than necessary, you can see this over the last couple of years especially with certain planeswalkers, Oko, Uro, free mechanics of the past (Phyrexian Mana most notably), and the mana doubling recently with cards like Uro, Wilderness Reclamation, and Growth Spiral which those cards also brought hyper consistency.
I stated in one of my previous posts a series of "learning opportunities" that they've had and oddly enough each one seems to follow another, the previous in which was supposed to be their "lesson learned". Doesn't seem like they learn those lessons all that well.
Even then, they've already stated that they'd reprint them with in-universe names if necessary.
This is more of a reason why these cards should have had the Two Name template. You say they look worse that way, and that's your opinion, but they created a template for such things for occasions such as this so then why not use it if that's their intention anyways? Remember Godzilla, King of the Monsters (a.k.a. Zilortha, Strength Incarnate) has that template even though the MTG equivalent has yet to come out. Now ask yourself this "Why do it for one but not these" and, personally, I think the reason is they did not come up with the MTG equivalent yet, they literally don't know what that card will be. This could show a lack of planning, which fits rather nicely to how the game has been run quite recently.
In their recent excuse stream WotC also said that aesthetics were a reason to not use the Two Name template. Why exactly was it fine for the 20+ Godzilla cards, but not for these four? Their own reasoning is filled with holes.
As for the DnD set, sorry you've already made up your mind knowing literally nothing about the set other than its theme. That sounds like a pretty limiting way to enjoy the game, but to each their own do your thing dude. I suppose there are probably people who pass on Innistrad because they don't like horror tropes. My perspective? DnD fits perfectly within Magic's sphere stylistically, and there have already been copious crossovers in the opposite direction, so it sounds to me like it will be a super good fit. I don't actually give a damn about DnD personally, but iconic monsters like Tiamat or the Terrasque would be dope to see, or even just an increased focus on stereotypical DnD things like... Dungeons and... Dragons. I'd be inordinately jazzed to see gem dragons for each color, like we used to back in Mirage. Or a Saga-adjacent mechanic for Dungeons where you do certain tasks to advance them for rewards.
Yes, D&D does fit well with Magic, that much is true, but an entire Core Set dedicated to it seems a bit much, to say the least. We've already had references to D&D in Magic throughout its history, from the card Bag of Holding to the entire plane of Ravnica (at least I believe that to be the case).
As for what to expect it's not going to be a surprise if the Party mechanic returns, which I do not look forward to in the least.
We can already see enough D&D through Magic just by seeing various tropes showing up in Magic cards there really isn't a reason to create an entire set dedicated to it. References can feel natural and seeing them sprinkled in over time can be fun, but have too much too quick and how good it feels can become boredom before long.
While I do look forward to some of the set an entire set dedicated to a crossover, no matter how well those two things work I do have to be apprehensive about it and what this and future crossover Secret Lairs and D&D Core really mean for the game as a whole.
Oh you're not wrong, the average player has absolute no grasp of what makes a card good. There have already been people screeching about how Rick is the Nexus of Fate of crossovers already. Like... really? Are we looking at different cards?
I take it you're an above average player then? Someone who truly knows how to evaluate cards they haven't played with yet? Unlike all that ordinary folk.
Zendikar is a D&D-inspired plane as it utilized traps, allies, and quests. Then later utilizing classes and parties as a focus.
Ravnica is a D&D-inspired plane from the concept of Sigil while having Slavic roots.
Forgotten Realms is just a D&D plane.
As for the matter of unique IPs on cards, gee you mean like these attached images of alters? Technically an alter is more of a rare and personalized thing than a secret lair. While Wizards is shotgunning for anything you could wnat, you could just pay an alter artist to make you one. And in doing so you are supporting the community.
Never thought I'd actually see the day that EDH / Commander would be in an existential crisis yet here we are in 2020 where Wizards of the Coast has managed to take advantage of running Standard to the ground by suspending all In-Person Events due to the ongoing pandemic. The last line of defense for Local Game Stores (LGSs) are MTG players who actively show up to play EDH / Commander yet Wizards of the Coast went against the original premise of Secret Lair drops being reprints of old cards by selling original EDH / Commander cards direct-to-consumer instead of being widely available to the public.
Combine that with the Rules Committee's recent stance on the Walking Dead Secret Lairs and it sets up a very dangerous precedent for Paper Magic going forward. I can't even fathom how much money everyone's already invested in the EDH / Commander format especially for those who own 5-10+ EDH decks or Cure for the Common Game on YouTube who owns 500+ EDH decks just to try to break a Guinness World Record as admirable as that goal is. The situation has already gotten as far as Mitch from Commander's Quarters attempting to re-brand the format into "Captain".
We went from "Elder Dragon Highlander" (EDH) to Wizards of the Coast re-branding the format as "Commander" only to re-brand it a third time with "Captain" which is really nothing more than a reskinned Commander format with rules separate from what the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast say. Let's not kid ourselves here we ALL knew this day was coming but we didn't want to admit to it. Wizards of the Coast is just salty that a community based format like EDH / Commander has been doing better than Standard which they fail to take responsibility for.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Zendikar is a D&D-inspired plane as it utilized traps, allies, and quests. Then later utilizing classes and parties as a focus.
Ravnica is a D&D-inspired plane from the concept of Sigil while having Slavic roots.
Forgotten Realms is just a D&D plane.
As for the matter of unique IPs on cards, gee you mean like these attached images of alters? Technically an alter is more of a rare and personalized thing than a secret lair. While Wizards is shotgunning for anything you could wnat, you could just pay an alter artist to make you one. And in doing so you are supporting the community.
Given that both DnD-inspired planes were slam-dunks popularity-wise, sounds like a perfect reason to just do a literal DnD plane. Good point, I hadn't thought of it that way
Neat alters! I've seen some really good ones, and paid for some myself from local artists. Makes perfect sense that WotC would want to get in on that action given their popularity! Kind like noticing that the players love EDH and jumping on that bandwagon. Give the people what they want and all that, and WotC DEFINITELY pays artists better than we ever could as individual customers, so everyone wins.
Now I have even more reasons to like these lairs.
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So you’ve been essentially complaining against gatekeeping the franchise for many of your post...and then proceeded to tell someone their opinion isn’t valid because they haven’t been on these forums as long as you. You don’t know how long they’ve played the game. Or how long they’ve lurked on the forums before joining.
What your doing is the thing you claim to hate....your gatekeepeing.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
If it's something as innocent as this, that would be great. Many aspects of my internets are exploding, and looking at Rick and replacing it with Odric, that eases some of the surprising stress I've had about Magic over the last couple of days.
But since we're in the Rumor Mill, who would the other cards translate to then? The next generation of Innistrad heroes?
How are we or anyone supposed to decide what should and should not be in the game creatively if not by expressing our opinions about whether we want it in the game or not? It is worth everyone keeping in mind that there's always going to be parts of the game they don't like, but things can cross a line for people where they actively want it removed. People aren't forcing it to happen. They are expressing their preference.
WotC can do whatever they want with their game, but they aren't making for themselves. If WotC wants the community's support for their products they have to support the community at least a little in turn.
Literally zero reason?
How about this: Broken/pushed cards sell.
Not literally zero reason then. Oops.
Broken cards are likely to happen by accident, as they have often happened. The number of card bannings we've seen haven't been something WotC wanted or planned, but rather something they allowed to happen by pushing the envelope in certain ways that have increased the chance of mistakes. Namely, WotC is incentivized to push hype chase cards that rake in big bucks and they have taken more risks with such cards.
Even if none of these WD cards are 'broken' as such, if they are sufficiently powerful to see widespread play, that's already kind of a problem. Because they are going to get expensive and hard to acquire fast.
I love it when people answer their own questions.
If something isn't good for consumers, shouldn't consumers be concerned a little?
There was no great demand for something like Secret Lair before Secret Lair existed. WotC wasn't filling a hole, they were seizing an opportunity. If a product like this can't be produced within cost without limiting availability, maybe it shouldn't be made? And that's assuming that production costs for a more available Secret Lair would indeed be unreasonably burdensome, and not WotC just did it this way regardless because it made the most money for them. Which is a thing that for-profit companies have been known to do on occasion.
"If you don't like it, don't buy it" misses how much more power businesses have in the exchange than consumers. Especially with things like food and medicine, but even with entertainment media like this, people really want these products, but WotC doesn't give much of a ***** about one more customer's money among many. WotC can offer the product in a fashion that is far from ideal and people will still buy it, and it will often be worth it for those people, even, for that individual purchase. But people might still be getting ripped off, and meanwhile, people who don't like and don't buy can be ignored and pushed out of the game. And that's not even mentioning the way businesses can exploit people's vulnerabilities like addiction. This becomes especially problematic when it all combines to result in a shrinking focus on extracting as much easy money from heavily invested players who are willing to spend a lot over making the game broadly enjoyable and accessible.
The only way for consumers to realistically apply serious pressure to WotC over something they don't like is to organise as a community, help to encourage each other to resist the temptation to buy in, voice their specific concerns, and apply continued public pressure that makes the company look bad. You know, like they are doing.
It worked for SW Battlefront 2.
WotC's track record on reprinting cards to keep accessibility in check is spotty at best. This only amplifies an existing problem with accessibility, the defining problem of MtG for consumers, even.
International availability for Secret Lair is worse than other products. They have been working to expand it over time, but it's still below usual. Everyone will theoretically be able to acquire these, but whether they will be to some extent prohibitively difficult to acquire for some people is another matter.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
No one is making that argument. At all.
So your argument is "be glad what for what you can get"....what? You understand very few people are complaining about being able to have this, right? They don't care they can't have it, they are arguing that these cards are essentially put on their own reserved list that will be very hard to reprint in the future.
I've chosen not to buy this product line on purpose. I could buy hundreds of these with no issue and don't care that I'm missing out on some "investment opportunity" because I treat this as a game and not a retirement fund.
Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz is less of a strawman than this argument.
So your next argument is "if you don't like it than leave" which in no way offers any real rebuttal nor conversation to any of the criticisms being discussed but instead is just a complaint about others not liking this product or the direction the game is going. Got it. It's awful argument, but I got it.
Having criticisms doesn't equate to hating the game nor the people who make it. Surprising, I know.
So now everyone is "whiny" because they either can't afford it or missed out on the opportunity to get it. You believe that people don't like what is happening here because of some investment opportunity? You actually believe that people don't like it because they can't buy it? Do I have that right? I hope I don't.
If you believe that what is being discussed has anything to do with "missing out" then you're not really paying attention.
First of all, no. Second, people will continue to play the game, people can dislike certain aspects of what they enjoy but still enjoy it. Why you seem to believe that criticism equate to pure hatred and being "triggered" which is far more asinine than someone finding faults in something, which there are many here.
Wait....let me get this straight. You are going to use more of your money because some rando out there doesn't like this? Then you go on to say they are the one being "triggered" by it and not realizing you just admitted that you were triggered into doing it by other people. Sounds like you're the one with the emotional response to it that needs to not be ruled by their hatred of random people on the internet.
It's ironic considering you probably complained the most out of anyone else here. In fact it's quite strange that you decreed everyone to be nothing but whiny, complaining, triggered, arm-chair have-nots and offered zero in actual conversation. You insulted others over your entire illogical filled rant that in no way offered any substance whatsoever.
Please try and be a bit more civil and offer some actual conversation rather than just insulting people.
The difference being that someone altering their own property is vastly different than WotC printing random cards with a crossover about a show that hasn't been popular in years. That's that singular person's property to do whatever they wish with it. Paint it, bedazzle it, turn it into a life counter, or burn it. That's on them to do what they wish with it.
There's a flaw in your logic. These are not being created as strictly collectibles, they are intended to be actual game pieces. While you may play with silver border cards, usually under their own umbrella, they are not intended for normal play. The My Little Pony cards or the Hasbro promos from a Comic Con are intended far more as collectibles.
And no, most games do not do that. The only time a game does it is when they are desperate for it as a quick injection of cash as they believe they can squeeze just a bit more money out of not only their own fan base and potentially get money from another fan base. It is a way of throwing anything at the wall and to see what sticks. It's a rather transparent move.
Also, crossovers is not a property "evolving." It's not.
On questions one through three, no. No one is complaining about having to see these or worrying about their meta. No one.
Question 4. No, it's not.
Question 5. No one's blood pressure is high. Did you notice how your questions were silly?
They are printing money? We already know they'll reprint these eventually in non-TWD versions. Usually Secret Lairs shouldn't be bought, but this one especially has another reason why you shouldn't buy it. At some point they will reprint these cards. They will not be special.
Well you went the other direction with that so far.
What does someone's idea of immersion have to do with other people enjoying things?
Which cards again break immersion before? Arabian Knights? That's essentially a fairy tail at this point, it's fantasy still. Again, that was when the game was young, people understand this.
They didn't though. Remember Mana Crypt? That came from a book, we didn't see a reprint of it for 20 years, and they said they learned their lesson? Well they didn't and thenTrue-Name Nemesis was their "lesson learned" for cards in short print? Well they learned nothing and then did Nexus of Fate and then that became the new "lesson learned" (in a couple of ways). Nalathni Dragon was said to be their lesson learned for these and here we are with this Secret Lair. Fetches+shocks were a "lesson learned", then they did it again. Every time they do a free spell or free mechanic it's another "lesson learned", and then they do it again and then that becomes the new "lesson learned", and they do it again and then that becomes the new "lesson learned". Do you see the pattern?
Also, the idea that these are not strong and therefore that's okay in the future is a poor argument. These may be fine yes, but we are missing a card and that could be a problem. Death's Shadow was considered weak until someone broke it.
So then why didn't they just do it to begin with? It's definitely not because of aesthetics, else they wouldn't have done it to 20+ cards recently.
You and someone else keeps mentioning entitlement and I'm not seeing it in any of the criticisms being brought up. You need to point out where these "entitlements" are.
Hey look! Another insult rather than any real substance. Weird that those saying others are the ones making fun of the ones that want to buy this are the only ones that are insulting people. That's odd.
You find it weird that people are talking about a Magic product on a Magic focused forum? Really? Why? Why is it weird? Why would you expect in a topic about a specific Magic product that there would be talks about the pandemic or the American election? There are other places to go for that conversation, like off topic section of this forum, or other sites altogether.
Also, did you just try your "there are more important things to worry about and therefore you can't worry about other things" line of logic again? Did you think people wouldn't notice? It didn't work once, why would you think it would work a second time? Didn't work the first time.
Question, you keep insulting others or belittling their arguments based off of the idea that they are in the minority or are complaining. Why do you keep doing that?
Then what do you call bannings in Standard? Are players advocating to take away something from others then?
That's not what gaslighting is.
Did you just list off a bunch of things about yourself like it is in any way an argument? Why? Posts on a forum don't matter and it doesn't matter how much you've spent on the game or how many signed cards you have. Cool humble brag though, I guess.
Again, you're using gaslighting wrong.
It seems as though your issue stems from the fact that anyone is complaining at all. See, you may be quite alright with not discussing Magic, or you may only want to talk about what you love about the game, but for others, like myself, we want to discuss what is wrong and right with the game, what we love and dislike. You seem to believe that criticism equates to hatred of it, like we don't love a game, problem is that if someone didn't like the game then they wouldn't stick with it.
I like conversations about the game. I want to get into heated discussions about why this Secret Lair is bad, but at the same time I'd love to talk about how good Dominaria was, how even though Magic's own Avengers were annoying from time to time I'd like to discuss certain story articles and how amazing they were.
You seem to take any criticism as if it is to make fun of something you enjoy, but the truth is that when you can talk about the good and the bad about something is when you can truly enjoy it. To only believe the sky is falling or that the everything is perfect (or anything in your life) is an ignorant mindset. The reason why people have complaints is because they like something, or were hoping to enjoy it but were disappointed.
No one is saying that someone cannot enjoy this product. They can, and I hope they find the money worth it. For me I will not buy Secret Lairs as I find they don't offer enough for the price they set them at (I am not paying $30 for a play set Lightning Bolts). For others though they see issues with this product, because there are issues, and to say that they are strictly complaining out of some "entitlement" or because they "can't afford it" shows you do not wish to partake in the discussion and only wish to complain and insult.
This is supposed to be ironic, right?
Might want to look into how they've gone over the mistakes of Mana Crypt, Nalathni Dragon, True-Name Nemesis, and Nexus of Fate and have gone on to say how those were mistakes. There's a reason they stopped doing promos like Nalathni Dragon. Seriously, just look it up.
I mean, this product doesn't exist in a vacuum. As I've said before. We already know that it doesnt stop at secret lairs. There's a whole crossover set announced with DnD. Like, we already know part of the future. This isn't fearmongering. And if this trend continues, because enough people continue buying, then crossovers will become more and more common, which will affect my experience of the game no matter which products I specifically skip out on. (Having to skip out on a major release, because it's not a Magic set is already kinda unprecedented, not counting Arabian Nights.) And if it really does hurt Magic in the long run, then it is my concern as a player no matter whether I'll buy this product or not.
It's a similar thing with "just don't play with these cards". I cannot not play with a card if my opponent has it in its deck. I turned off the godzilla cards in Arena, because they annoy me like hell, but I can't turn off cards in RL and especially not cards that have no Magic alternate skin.
Yeah but they have more artist-signed cards than anyone you know combined. They know what they're talking about.
Unlike all of you plebeians.
Been here (in some form) for at least 5 years - but with all the transitioning that went on with the forums here in terms of the platform used, I didn't know if my account survived, and if I did, I didn't know my old login details or anything, so I thought "screw it," and just made a new one.
And, on the point I stated about discussions being difficult, I meant in general - in any platform where said discussions take place - whether here, Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, etc, some subjects are very venom laced.
It probably is!
This is why I don't understand why so many people are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Who knows... Perhaps those who are complaining are even working for Wizards, and are trying to draw more attention to the product in hopes that the apparent controversy helps boost sales. After all, infamy lasts longer than fame, and bad attention is still good free advertising as evidenced by the spike in sales and prices of recently banned collectible cards which are no longer playable due to cancel culture for having "offensive art" (if such a thing even exists, but that's an entirely different philosophical discussion regarding the subjective nature of what may or may not be offensive and how we interpret then process external stimuli).
Honestly, Wizards marketing executives are probably dancing in their socially distanced bubbles now with glasses of champagne in celebration of how much talk this product is getting and how they can already feel confident they made the correct decision. After all, it's a guaranteed seller (albeit, not for everyone which is obvious, and the same could be said about any product they release. I for example had zero interest in Jump/Start and simply ignored it instead of coming here to complain about those few new commander staples being included which I couldn't get at the price I wanted and which are already super high that I never even needed to begin with since my decks are healthy enough without them). Regardless, initial mistakes like low print runs can always be easily corrected with reprints (assuming they're even mistakes and not intentional as a way to boost hype and inflate the secondary market which Wizards must realize when high is a barometer of their success at producing a product people want, which in turn draws in investors adding momentum to the cycle).
This is what I think...
Rick is Odric
Darryl is likely the new Legendary Huntmaster of the Fells or Ulrich
Glenn is likely the new Geist of Saint Traft
Michonne is likely the new Legendary Grim Flayer
Neegan is likely a new creature Sorin, or a legendary Falkenrath Aristocrat
Comforting, isn't it?
To consider that possibility
Even if I'm wrong, there's still nothing to panic or be fearful about.
To all concerned who are (in my opinion) overreacting...
I beg you to relax over this.
It's not worth risking hypertension.
Brew some chamomile tea, find some indica, listen to Chopin or pick up your own acoustic guitar, play a game with fewer less complex game pieces like chess...whatever it takes.
It's pointless, if not counter-productive to spend energy being upset at this decision.
It was made, seemingly despite previous complaints regarding similar issues which apparently fell on deaf ears.
Conclusion: Our input and criticisms here are effectively inconsequential, at least for the most part, and that's just something we'll all have to live with. Yelling at the sky for rain during a dry season does nothing when nobody is up there listening.
Let's at least be happy for the gifted actors whose likenesses have now been immortalized in a game so many people love!
Can't we be happy for Andrew Lincoln and his co-stars who were all great in their roles on the show?
Nobody at Wizards cares if some players don't like the show or if they didn't earn that level of showcasing
Should we expect them to care if we're also upset at whoever among the actors has never even played a game of Magic? Why bother?
For all we know, the actors more upset than people here because they never consented to being associated with this game (and by extension the toxic elements and backlash hyperbole of gaming culture) or were even included in the decision to having their character's cards printed.
What if, hypothetically, Wesley Crusher appeared as a Star Trek Secret Lair card?
Considering that's a series with time travel, portals, other worlds and dimensions, would such a crossover be more appropriate than The Walking Dead "invading" the Magic megaverse?
Wil Wheaton even plays Magic (or at least he did at some point) and has also culturally crossed-over before to the Big Bang Theory (which everyone I know thought was absolutely hilarious). But I digress...
Why care if Wizards is making the same mistakes they used to?
They're doing so knowingly at least, and that's their prerogative.
Rest assured, time will heal all wounds.
People complained about the Godzilla lands.
Personally, I don't like or understand the appeal of Guru Lands but won't hate on their existence or the people who want to buy them.
They're literally basic lands which cost hundreds of dollars but function the same as other worthless cardboard.
Nice art and controversial artist notwithstanding, quite frankly, there's nothing "guru" about them in my eyes.
They're lands for suckers who want to show off and have more money than they know what to do with, but anyone who is smart and buys them wouldn't even play with them, that's the catch most people don't understand. They'll never help you win games, but they might score you points impressing friends or invite theft. One thing is for certain: The more they're played, the more they're at risk of going down in value, but if they're not, they'll always at least retain or go up in value.
Case in point some cards should never be played with and were never meant to be, regardless of whether the border is black, white, silver, or gold.
The color of card borders is illusory to a true collecting connoisseur
Back to the specific topic at hand...
People who claim certain things are inherently "wrong" with regards to these TWD cards (or the similar aforementioned poorly distributed in the past promotional cards like mana crypt, etc) certainly don't speak for me or the majority of players (not that I necessarily represent the majority of players either because I play this game on a level few seem to understand).
How do I know this?
Because the majority of Magic players don't even know about these cards yet!
In fact, contrary to popular belief (or rather, the beliefs of players who congregate here and on similar forums), the majority of Magic players don't even read these forums or look at spoilers, let alone cling to Wizards' twitter and reddit feeds 24/7 like some of us who are clearly too invested, obsessed, and distracted by this game and the perpetual stream of updates to game pieces, mechanics, formats, and the overall environment which are virtually impossible for anyone to keep up with (unless they don't work and have no other social life or family obligations) to properly put things into perspective.
Realistically, the only people who should be upset about the low distribution (or lack thereof in certain countries) are those who solely identify as investors and collectors. The people who want to buy these, perhaps in bulk, to hold onto, then unload years from now as supply becomes scarce and they go up.
Players who never keep extra product sealed and have difficulty getting these cards for any reason never really needed them anyway, because nobody needs them. Nobody was missing or asking for these mechanical designs up until now, nobody among the player base asked for TWD cards to be produced, and nobody would have them if we weren't already living in a Twilight Zone alternate timeline where they weren't printed, so does it really change anything if you're stuck in this particular instance of space and time, you're in a have-not country where this doesn't get shipped, and other random people in other countries have them either to play with, leave in a binder, or keep on their shelves?
How would that in any way change your life for the worse?
Because you know that someone out there has something, or has access to something which you don't?
Boo-Hoo-Hoo!
You can't
Always get
What you want...
(Sing it with me now!)
To reiterate what the objective, experienced, critically-thinking, profit-making, cultured, game-enthusiastic, mature adults in the room agree upon, these aren't format warping game pieces in any way, and if you choose not to buy them for any reason, you don't have to regret that decision either. If you suspect you will, or have distain or angst towards whomever does own them, you may need to seek professional therapy to deal with those internal anger issues which are obviously causing misdirected frustration at a game manufacturer (and their other, happier clients) for, of all things, producing game pieces which some (but not all) players like (which is the case with cards from literally every set which gets printed).
These cards will change your life about as much as...
Yoda randomly appearing in SoulCalibur 4
Arnold as the T-800 being in Mortal Kombat 11
And look what happened to the Street Fighter world over the years! Have you seen the Roster in Marvel vs Capcom 3? (would they keep making these games and adding more characters if they weren't fun to play, popular, and profitable?)
Do those games (still) upset you too, and if so, ask yourselves, why?
Fun fact....I recently downloaded Eddie Murphy in a Delirious costume for WWE 2K20!
His move set may not be the best, but seeing him walk down the entrance ramp still makes me smile <- Hint: this is what matters most to people who play games for the right reason (recreational fun above all else)
Remember when they added that invasive new marshmallow shape into your box of Lucky Charms?!
Did General Mills betray it's consumers by changing how many colors were in your cereal bowl?
Why wasn't everybody who ate cereal, or anybody among consumers for that matter polled before they made that huge game-changing decision?
Wasn't 7 supposed to be the lucky number?!
Who cares?
Companion mechanic effectively gave some players an 8th card in hand!
My point is, Wizards and Leprechauns can correct those mistakes, and we can always pick out the marshmallows we don't like to play with...I mean eat!
This is simply what happens when cultural ideas intersect and there's an opportunity for profit.
Consumers want more colors, sounds, sparkles, border patterns, gimmicks, and gum with their cards!
It's all just eye-candy and other forms of mental stimulation.
TWD Magic cards are an example of good product marketing, something Hasbro and Wizards clearly knows much more about that I would assume most people on this forum. They want to draw in new players (as always) and figure fans who are enjoying the final season of TWD and don't know about Magic cards or who've heard about them but never played, may feel more inclined to now that familiar faces are on cards, particularly commander-esque cards which can be built around for fun, multiplayer, casual games, which often exclude the players who apparently don't even want to see these cards exist to begin with. That's the irony... The people who want them and the people who don't will likely never even be sitting at the same table!
Should we blame businesses for trying to make profit when that's their primary intent and function (if successful)?
Y'know what old saying... "If you can't beat em, join em"?
This is where I (and other smart players who are in it for the endgame) follow the adage and you fail; Where I keep trading up into older staples and growing my portfolio, and you keep buying into Standrad then trading at a loss as the new trendy netdeck-of-the-week keeps emerging and eclipsing other good cards which people are too apprehensive to even try using, cards which I pick up when they bottom out and then flip back six months to six years later when the combo piece gets printed, the buyout begins for those late to the party, and my copies go up eight to twenty times in value.
Other people are happy
Other people are having fun
How does their fun diminish yours?
Is it some sort of zero-balance equation where you and your opponent who plays cards you don't like can't BOTH have fun?
What a novel concept!...Two (or more) people, playing a game, for the sake of playing and having fun in the process!
Isn't that the primary purpose of playing any game?
If you're playing Magic solely for the competition aspect, then again these won't bother you because your competitive opponents likely won't play them, and if they do, you'll seemingly be at an advantage since they're mechanically sub-par by today's standards.
Just know in advance that by neglecting to buy these, you will be missing out on an opportunity to trade them back at a profit later for the cards you actually do want but don't want to pay for in cash now because they're already higher in price than you believe they should be. As they say with any newly hyped product destined for appreciation, you have to get in on the ground floor, that's now.
There's always two games being played...
The game on the battlefield, and the market game.
Am I the only one who buys cards he doesn't want to play with while they're low so I can trade them back for other pieces later once they go up?
Quite frankly, in the grand scheme of things, the latter is more important to me, and should be more important to all of you too, but if you still care more about going 5-0 at the next standard event than you do about amassing a million dollars or more in easy-to-store equity which goes up in value much faster than most mutual funds, you should be focusing on more formats.
My comment about having a lot of signed cards was simply to illustrate that I have a vast and diverse portfolio of cards, both old and new, both competitive and forgotten, many of which I don't like, many of which I never play with or intended to play with, but were still simply acquired as part of a now very valuable ongoing collection project. The details aren't important, but you can be certain I know what I'm talking about and wasn't trying to diminish the Magic knowledge of younger players of the "common folk" (which was your label, not mine) who may not have been following this game as long as I have or who know less about collecting (at no fault of their own) than I do through decades of first hand experience. This has nothing to do with trying to make anyone jealous or you thinking I'm some sort of Magic elitist who wants to brag. On the contrary, I'm trying to help and offer good constructive advice to whomever will listen which has worked for me about collecting and trading up for profit to share what could also be a profitable experience for others who play this game differently than I do, as opposed to languishing over the perpetual frustrations of getting caught in the cycle of playing paper Standard which more experienced players know is a trap inside a sinkhole for losing money.
At this moment, I'd like to offer a Special and Thankful shout-out to 'Markers', who is the one who motivated me years ago to build up my signatures collection and take my collecting more seriously, which I have been.
I'll conclude with this for those who are still upset.
Put your anger aside, think logically and critically about every dollar you spend on particular cards, and figure out why it's beneficial not to miss certain opportunities more than others, and buy cards you may not even like or want to support for being culturally offensive. This is no different than a limited special edition sneaker than you don't want to wear and nobody needs to run faster but will still go up in value. Nowadays the long term market increases are all about rare promos, Commander staples, and Reserved list cards. Either use that knowledge to your own advantage, or be stubborn on principle and lose out. You can treat Magic as a game and also as a retirement fund (they're not mutually exclusive). The choice is yours.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
I am actually mildly excited about the whole IP , platform divergent thing that this TWD SLD represents.
They can actually build whole TCGs out of other IPs using the MTG resource system.
Its like the old scrylist magazines (terrible stuff) where they try to play decks from different TCGs together (it normally made zero sense since the resource systems were totally different)
But MTG's resource system is pretty open. You know how Maro has these sessions where they fit characters to the colour pie (I think he talked about it in some article about how innistrad was build from the ground up) the resaon for this is that magic's colour system is more psychological profiling. So many characters can fit in. The only weird part in terms of immersion is the sorcery card type. But even then it is just an instant with different timing restrictions. Tech can easily fall into artifacts, and we already have vehicles and equipment. Myself I have always fantasized about wuxia (chinese martial art storie) characters made into mtg cards and in a way portal 3 kingdoms was just a crossover into "romance of the three kingdoms" back in the day.
So this development is both intriguing and scary.
So I really like this development... but I still hope Magic's core lore will survive.
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Being a bully player will ruin and kill the game faster and more effectively than any crossover set or banning.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Right? This is super exciting, and my mind has been awhirl with the possibilities. I tend to be the one who buys cards for my playgroup since I work at a singles retailer, and one of my friends is a greasy super-zealous Nintendo nerd who would DIE if I could get him a Link commander. One of them is a giant black dude who was pretty torn up about Chadwick Boseman dying and would probably cry if there was a Black Panther legend. I personally would live for the meme of fastfood crossovers like Ronald McDonald and The Burger King making it into the game.
One of my friends at WotC was absolutely one of the drivers behind the (now fallen through because JKR is a bigot) Harry Potter crossover, and I think I know who pitched the idea behind Skyrim being in Kaldheim as well.
I'm more than willing to pay a licensing premium for novelty bull***** that makes specific people in my life inordinately happy <3
Fair point. Let's just say that I save it for special occasions. and people.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
In my opinion, cards from other IPs should always be opt-in, because they are not "core" Magic. That means either silver border (not legal by default, but negotiable with your play group) or as a "skin" of a Magic IP equivalent (i.e. the Godzilla treatment). I don't personally like the Godzilla cards, but I still get there's a group of people who like them. In Arena, I can turn the skins off so I only see the Magic versions, and in paper, I can at least find solace in the fact that I'm not forced to used the crossover versions when running them in my own deck. This crossover should absolutely have been done in the same way, and the explanation Maro has given ("not as aesthetically pleasing") is pretty flimsy and suggests a lack of care about the game's creative integrity.
Meanwhile, they will make a solid subsection of the community VERY happy, just like the Godzilla cards, and if they do somehow manage to get broken years from now they already said they would reprint them with in-universe names. Making them silver-border automatically means that you can't play them in pickup games, which by default means that the vast majority of people who would otherwise play them will not.
There is some validity to the argument that these should've been done Zilortha-style, but why bother when it makes the cards uglier and skipping that step hurts literally no one anywhere, at all, ever? You would absolutely not hate them less if they had a second name under them. Do not lie about that, no one believes you.
Every argument anyone makes against these very cleanly boils down to 'These aren't my cup of tea so no one else should get to enjoy them either.'
We keep saying 'let people like things' and its not getting through to people. Let. People. Like. Things.
Fun is not a zero-sum game, just because someone else gets something nice that you're not a fan of does not mean that your fun is diminished. If it makes you unhappy for someone else to get something, you need to take a long hard look at yourself.
Yes, I am not "forced" to use them, but then again, you're not "forced" to use any specific Magic card (except for basic lands I guess). But just to give an example: I really like Negan's effect and I think it would be fun to build a commander deck around him - but I don't like that he's an IP crossover. The ideal solution to this is having both the crossover version and the Magic version readily available so both players who like TWD and those who don't have a choice. That's what this boils down to. When managed properly, this shouldn't be a problem - print the Magic version ahead of time, or both at the same time, or at the very least release these cards along with a statement like "these cards will be given Magic canon versions within the next year" or so.
Can you please stop trying to paint in black and white to make yourself look like "the good guy." As I've said, it's not about "not letting people like things", it's about making solutions that "let people like things" while not excluding others that don't like those things.
Just think of the flavorful possibilities!...
DeLorean, Time Machine 5
Artifact - Vehicle
8/5
Crew 2
Whenever DeLorean attacks, roll a 6-sided die. If you roll 1 to 5, go back in time that many turns. If you roll 6, restart the game (reset the board state as needed). If you've travelled to the future, DeLorean gains flying.
Flux Capacitor, 3
Legendary Artifact
When flux capacitor enters the battlefield put a mile counter on it.
At the beginning up your upkeep, double the number of mile counters on Flux Capacitor.
Whenever a crewed vehicle attacks, if Flux Capacitor has 88 or more mile counters on it, restart the game with Flux Capacitor and a 1/1 white human teenager token with vigilance under your control, then take an extra turn at the beginning of your first end step.
Marty's Hoverboard, 3
Vehicle
20/15
Crew 4
Creatures crewing hoverboard gain reach, haste, and vigilance, and can attack or block as though they're not tapped.
Hoverboard can't attack opponents who only control islands
You may remove a counter from a teenager rather than paying Marty's Hoverboard's crew cost
Biff, 3BW
Legendary Creature - Geriatric Human Bully
3/3
When Biff enters the battlefield, each opponent loses 1 life, put a +1/+1 counter on Biff for each life lost this way.
At the beginning of each combat, goad target creature.
Whenever Biff attacks and isn't blocked, ask that opponent "What's the matter McFly? Chicken?"
If Biff is Geriatric on the battlefield and you go back in time, put Biff to the top of your library, and cards named Biff enters with the creature type Adult instead with a manure counter, and target opponent sacrifices a non-teenager creature
If Biff is Adult on the battlefield and you back in time, put Biff to the top of your library, and cards named Biff enter with the creature type Teenager instead with a manure counter
Creatures with manure counters have infect
Marty McFly, Temporal Abductee, WW
Legendary Creature - Teenager Human Slacker
4/1
Partner with Doc Brown
When Marty McFly crews a Vehicle, they each gain Protection from Bullies until end of turn.
If Marty McFly is on the Battlefield and you go back in time, Put Marty McFly onto the Battlefield. If you've previously gone back in time this game, target opponent creates a token copy of Marty McFly.
Doc Brown, Mad Scientist, WRU
Legendary Creature - Geriatric Human Scientist
2/3
Partner with Marty McFly
Geriatrics can't block or be blocked by Teenagers
When Doc Brown, Mad Scientist attacks, draw a card.
When Doc Brown, Mad Scientist Crews DeLorean, Time Machine, flip a coin. It if comes up heads, take an extra turn after this one. If it comes up tails, rolls a 6-sided die, go back in time a that many turns, and target opponent draws two cards.
Whenever Doc Brown is dealt damage, targeted, or destroyed by a Time Paradox, say "Great Scott!"
Time Paradox, 4
Instant
Put target Teenager to the top of it's owner's library or Destroy target non-teenager, then Scry 2
Duelist Magazine, 2
Legendary Publication - Almanac
Equip 3
At the beginning of each upkeep, create a treasure token and put a +1/+1 counter on equipped creature
If a Human you control is equipped with Duelist Magazine and go back in time, put the equipped creature onto the battlefield, and put Duelist Magazine to the top of your library. If you go back to 1994, increase the value of your Magic card collection exponentially.
Marvin Berry, Chuck's Non-existent Cousin, BB
Adult Human Musician
2/2
Whenever Marty McFly equips a Guitar, Phone your most musically talented cousin and remind them you exist
Marvin Berry has all activated abilities of musicians in graveyards
You know you want it!
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
I'm going to disagree with Magic needing that sort of thing, but if you are looking for a card game with lots of different IP in it then Weiss Shwarz does that very thing. It has Adventure Time, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure ick, Sword Art Online, and others. (This is in no way telling you to stop playing Magic) I have no idea how the game plays or how good it is. If you want that sort of thing (Weiss Shwarz or this Secret Lair) and this makes you happy then go and buy it. Good on you for getting joy out of it.
Personally I find all that does is dilute the product when you keep introducing crossovers, as if it was admitting you can't sell your product normally. Usually when an IP goes for heavy crossovers or introducing new things constantly it reveals the IP is having far more issues than it's showing, it wants to keep people around that are leaving and if the rumors are true that they were doing this during 2017/2018 when they had multiple failures it goes to show a bit of the desperation. You can find examples of this with Fairly Odd Parents and Scooby Doo. The former introduced more and more main characters and the later has plenty of crossovers with WWE (this had a lot of crossovers like with Surfs Up where Vince McMahan, as an otter, talks about milking a fish for its milk with a visual of the otter drinking milk from the fish directly), Supernatural, Jetson, Flintstones, and then of course back in the day where they had celebrity guests constantly.
Another issue of the crossovers comes with the previous decade with the push for microtransactions. It is a way of trying to not get more money, but instead to get ALL the money and squeezing the fan base more and more. The microtransaction thing becomes even more of an apt description over the past year with Magic as they've been pumping out product like rabbits breeding. Arena is chalk full of those now.
Some crossovers are appropriate, yes, (I've been waiting on a Psych x Monk crossover episode/movie forever), but that's when the IPs being brought together are appropriate for each other or have similarities in some way. Even wild ones, like Scooby Doo x Supernatural (never saw the show) while a wild combination have elements that work for each other to work that way, or for example when the shows are owned by the same company, Hanna Barbara being an example of this or the most recent Scooby Doo movie or Cartoon Network when they brought all their cartoons together in little commercials to show they live together in the same world.
With this crossover specifically there really isn't anything connecting the two in any way other than both have zombies and humans.
Then of course they had to just create a card that actually is good in this and will see Commander play, potentially more than that. We've already stepped into the issues of why they stopped doing this kind of thing a long time ago. It took them zero products before they did the thing for the reason they stopped. Yay.
No, they're not. You've said this multiple times; it wasn't true the first time and it's not true the other dozen.
A) You don't know that yet. If history has told us anything it's that Magic players are garbage at gauging quality of cards.
B) Even if that's true. It's only true for now. Keep doing this for long anough and the next Nexus of Fate will slip through. Tarmogoyf was done as a gimmicky "hint at a new card type" card that nobody expected to be a constructed powerhouse. Oops. Especially with cards that are supposed to be flashy and gimmicky like, you know, these kinda secret lair crossovers, the chance for them accidentally being broken is not that bad.
C) Regarding these being opt-in. This is literally only true for the godzilla crossovers or the Walking Dead crossovers. But what about the upcoming DnD set, which will be standard legal. How opt-in is that? I have already decided not to buy anything from that set, but honestly the prospect of playing a "crossover" standard for how-many-months on arena is less than appealing. This isn't about "giving some people a treat" anymore. This is about the crossovers going to be an integral part of an entire standard season.
I mean, adding that second name also doesn't hurt anyone, so this is a zero sum argument at best. (Personally I believe that these cards being SL exclusive is going to "hurt" some people in the same way legacy and vintage have a high barrier of entry and the reserved list "hurting" people, not to mention the potential damage to the brand.)
Tarmogoyf isn't a great card for illustrating your point though, it was slotted in at the very last minute instead of Planeswalkers because they didn't feel comfortable printing them yet. Tarmo got absolutely zero testing. I have more faith in the people who make the best game in the world than to make the same mistake with a limited-release specialty card. Even then, they've already stated that they'd reprint them with in-universe names if necessary. Which would admittedly be too slow if these were legal in a competitive format with a weak enough card pool to where these might break in. But they're not.
The only thing I can see ever becoming a problem is people who were indecisive about whether they wanted these during the window, and are unwilling to interact with the secondary market (where the individual singles will absolutely be reasonably priced. Other than maybe the tokens. Because those are DOPE). I don't consider new players who start after the window to be a legitimate issue, since one can't reasonably expect to find sealed product for every set in Magic's history.
As for the DnD set, sorry you've already made up your mind knowing literally nothing about the set other than its theme. That sounds like a pretty limiting way to enjoy the game, but to each their own do your thing dude. I suppose there are probably people who pass on Innistrad because they don't like horror tropes. My perspective? DnD fits perfectly within Magic's sphere stylistically, and there have already been copious crossovers in the opposite direction, so it sounds to me like it will be a super good fit. I don't actually give a damn about DnD personally, but iconic monsters like Tiamat or the Terrasque would be dope to see, or even just an increased focus on stereotypical DnD things like... Dungeons and... Dragons. I'd be inordinately jazzed to see gem dragons for each color, like we used to back in Mirage. Or a Saga-adjacent mechanic for Dungeons where you do certain tasks to advance them for rewards.
Who is saying this? Who are these people?
They've made that mistake multiple times, and also Tarmogoyf is pretty tame to some of the cards we've been getting lately. Even when a card or mechanic is tested they are becoming far stronger than necessary, you can see this over the last couple of years especially with certain planeswalkers, Oko, Uro, free mechanics of the past (Phyrexian Mana most notably), and the mana doubling recently with cards like Uro, Wilderness Reclamation, and Growth Spiral which those cards also brought hyper consistency.
I stated in one of my previous posts a series of "learning opportunities" that they've had and oddly enough each one seems to follow another, the previous in which was supposed to be their "lesson learned". Doesn't seem like they learn those lessons all that well.
This is more of a reason why these cards should have had the Two Name template. You say they look worse that way, and that's your opinion, but they created a template for such things for occasions such as this so then why not use it if that's their intention anyways? Remember Godzilla, King of the Monsters (a.k.a. Zilortha, Strength Incarnate) has that template even though the MTG equivalent has yet to come out. Now ask yourself this "Why do it for one but not these" and, personally, I think the reason is they did not come up with the MTG equivalent yet, they literally don't know what that card will be. This could show a lack of planning, which fits rather nicely to how the game has been run quite recently.
In their recent excuse stream WotC also said that aesthetics were a reason to not use the Two Name template. Why exactly was it fine for the 20+ Godzilla cards, but not for these four? Their own reasoning is filled with holes.
Yes, D&D does fit well with Magic, that much is true, but an entire Core Set dedicated to it seems a bit much, to say the least. We've already had references to D&D in Magic throughout its history, from the card Bag of Holding to the entire plane of Ravnica (at least I believe that to be the case).
As for what to expect it's not going to be a surprise if the Party mechanic returns, which I do not look forward to in the least.
We can already see enough D&D through Magic just by seeing various tropes showing up in Magic cards there really isn't a reason to create an entire set dedicated to it. References can feel natural and seeing them sprinkled in over time can be fun, but have too much too quick and how good it feels can become boredom before long.
While I do look forward to some of the set an entire set dedicated to a crossover, no matter how well those two things work I do have to be apprehensive about it and what this and future crossover Secret Lairs and D&D Core really mean for the game as a whole.
I take it you're an above average player then? Someone who truly knows how to evaluate cards they haven't played with yet? Unlike all that ordinary folk.
Say, how many artist signed cards do you have?
I know the theme. I don't like the theme. Like, yeah I made up my mind, because it's specifically not what I want. It's not rocket science.
"You're not enjoying the game right" is, uh, a take I suppose.
Ravnica is a D&D-inspired plane from the concept of Sigil while having Slavic roots.
Forgotten Realms is just a D&D plane.
As for the matter of unique IPs on cards, gee you mean like these attached images of alters? Technically an alter is more of a rare and personalized thing than a secret lair. While Wizards is shotgunning for anything you could wnat, you could just pay an alter artist to make you one. And in doing so you are supporting the community.
Combine that with the Rules Committee's recent stance on the Walking Dead Secret Lairs and it sets up a very dangerous precedent for Paper Magic going forward. I can't even fathom how much money everyone's already invested in the EDH / Commander format especially for those who own 5-10+ EDH decks or Cure for the Common Game on YouTube who owns 500+ EDH decks just to try to break a Guinness World Record as admirable as that goal is. The situation has already gotten as far as Mitch from Commander's Quarters attempting to re-brand the format into "Captain".
We went from "Elder Dragon Highlander" (EDH) to Wizards of the Coast re-branding the format as "Commander" only to re-brand it a third time with "Captain" which is really nothing more than a reskinned Commander format with rules separate from what the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast say. Let's not kid ourselves here we ALL knew this day was coming but we didn't want to admit to it. Wizards of the Coast is just salty that a community based format like EDH / Commander has been doing better than Standard which they fail to take responsibility for.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Given that both DnD-inspired planes were slam-dunks popularity-wise, sounds like a perfect reason to just do a literal DnD plane. Good point, I hadn't thought of it that way
Neat alters! I've seen some really good ones, and paid for some myself from local artists. Makes perfect sense that WotC would want to get in on that action given their popularity! Kind like noticing that the players love EDH and jumping on that bandwagon. Give the people what they want and all that, and WotC DEFINITELY pays artists better than we ever could as individual customers, so everyone wins.
Now I have even more reasons to like these lairs.