How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
I'd love it if it makes them happy. Let people have their fun. It's 2020.
IP crossovers cards with no in-universe equivalent should not be legal by default because it dilutes MtGs own creative vision.
You play the cards you feel fit “MtGs own creative vision” in your eyes, and let others play their Godzillas, Transformers, My Little Ponies, Walkers, cartoon Goblins, and anime waifu Planeswalkers if it makes them happy. Don’t police what others may find fun or interesting. Let them enjoy their cards as you enjoy yours.
I knew that I'd be painted as some curmugdeon who tries to take other's fun away for this. However, that's not actually the case. I just don't want Magic to become the TCG equivalent of Super Smash Brothers. Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
This isn't even the worst thing going on in Magic, let alone the world, and you're investing this much emotional energy into it? Literally my entire livelihood is tied to this game and I'm not upset about this, what's wrong with y'all? Let people like things.
Ah yes, the "there are worse things out there so you can't complain about this specific thing" line of reasoning, the chef's kiss of logical fallacies as it were.
Even people that usually defend WotC are having issues with this product and there are plenty things to dislike about this. No one here has told others if they enjoy it that they are a terrible person. Those complaining are those that want to see the game do better and over the last couple years with many other choices it looks like this game is on shaky ground and this is just part of it.
If someone wants to like this and they get joy by buying this, then great, that's all on them and no one should stop them (unless buying this is a string of poor spending habits in which case it should be stopped). That said those that buy this should understand what this products means and how supporting it could affect the game in the long run.
Honestly all of the screeching about this product is coming from the very worst parts of the community. The game is dead, WotC is evil, people who like these are wrong, yadda yadda ten-page hyperbole about how this is the worst thing to ever happen.
Have you been outside lately?
This isn't even the worst thing going on in Magic, let alone the world, and you're investing this much emotional energy into it? Literally my entire livelihood is tied to this game and I'm not upset about this, what's wrong with y'all? Let people like things.
There's has been a certain amount of overreaction from some people, but what do you expect? People have valid complaints with this product and they've been spelled out many times on this thread. Of course there's going to be some overreaction, just as some there will be some people who don't take it seriously enough. And even if someone is overreacting doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.
'A certain amount of overreaction' is a ridiculous understatement. Have you SEEN that petulant, churlish, melodramatic video put out by TCC that folks are pointing to and agreeing with?
The folks at WotC are good people. They want to make the game fun for everyone and nerds demonstrably LOVE when you mash up their favorite things, so of course they jumped at the chance to put two and two together. This was supposed to be a nice surprise for everyone who loves TWD or zombies, and they even made absolutely sure that the cards weren't anywhere near broken to keep the whiners from mewling, but no, we have to ***** all over their hard work for no legitimate reason. God forbid they try to make money as a business while doing cool things for us.
'A certain amount of overreaction' is a ridiculous understatement. Have you SEEN that petulant, churlish, melodramatic video put out by TCC that folks are pointing to and agreeing with?
And what points of his do you disagree with? Which parts of it were poorly thought out? How do you wish to rebut? So far you're the only one calling names here while accusing others of doing the same.
I think it personally just tarnishes the MTG image when they just wholecloth put existing IPs into the game today. Much of MTG's charm and clout was formed by how it reimagined existing things. P3K and AN exist, but they also come from an earlier of MTG.
'A certain amount of overreaction' is a ridiculous understatement. Have you SEEN that petulant, churlish, melodramatic video put out by TCC that folks are pointing to and agreeing with?
The folks at WotC are good people. They want to make the game fun for everyone and nerds demonstrably LOVE when you mash up their favorite things, so of course they jumped at the chance to put two and two together. This was supposed to be a nice surprise for everyone who loves TWD or zombies, and they even made absolutely sure that the cards weren't anywhere near broken to keep the whiners from mewling, but no, we have to ***** all over their hard work for no legitimate reason. God forbid they try to make money as a business while doing cool things for us.
Magic players are such entitled, mean-spirited ******* gremlins.
You know I only see you being mean-spirited. Maybe you can let people have their own opinions without flaming everyone? TIA
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Protection from reason (Decadent_Creed can't be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by reason.)
I thought more on their "it would look bad with two names" reasoning of WotC's. I'm sure the reason we are not seeing two names on the card isn't because of style, or whatever fancy word they wish to use, but instead because they don't have a second name for those cards. Considering they mentioned that down the road these cards will be printed correctly (my words) it's strange they don't have those names already figured out. It's rumored they were doing this for years and they don't have a plan in place for this? Really?
Honestly, if they had the second name in place that would have mitigated some of the issues many players have about this product as we knew that there was a plan in place eventually. Here we have a sort of tentative plan of reprint.
I just don't want Magic to become the TCG equivalent of Super Smash Brothers. Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
This is an interesting point to bring up as Smash has been getting diluted for years now. So many non Nintendo characters. I haven't played in years (not for any reason, just grew out of it) but each time I see characters like Ryu, Cloud, and now Minecraft (if they wanted a blocky character they could have just put out 8-bit Mario and Link) show up I can only sit there and go "Nintendo knows they have more characters, right?" (Midna, Geno, different Ganons, different pokemon trainers with starters of that generation) Some are acceptable (Sonic, Mega Man, Belmont, Bayonetta) but at this point it's no longer Nintendo characters up against each other. It's like Kingdom Hearts 3 with no Final Fantasy even though that was what made that series unique and one of its selling points.
Dilute a product too much and it stops being the thing you loved it for. Yes, evolving and improving is important, but something like this is not the way to go about it.
I knew that I'd be painted as some curmugdeon who tries to take other's fun away for this. However, that's not actually the case. I just don't want Magic to become the TCG equivalent of Super Smash Brothers. Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
This is mostly how I feel. As long as it doesn't encroach on the storyline and stays within the realm of casual whimsical fun stuff, it's all good by me. Thankfully these products seem to have been limited to a mostly casual crowd and haven't invaded Magic as an actual game to any meaningful degree.
Not a fan of maro's damage control tweets this morning either.
They seem to be emphasizing that theres plenty of product to buy, and that they'll reprint them with magic names/art "if needed"
Its so incredibly tone deaf, even still.
It ignores every other major issue people have with this product. It ignores the availability problem to other countries, it ignores the blatant walking back on promises made in the past, that we cant even get staple reprints we want/need and when we do theyre bumped up to some kind of premium
but dont worry guys! Theres plenty for us to buy! We'll love this product!
In the most exploitative, predatory way we can imagine.
That no one asked for.
How loud does the feedback need to get here for **** sake.
It ignores every other major issue people have with this product. It ignores the availability problem to other countries, it ignores the blatant walking back on promises made in the past, that we cant even get staple reprints we want/need and when we do theyre bumped up to some kind of premium
They'll walk back this promise, but when it comes to the Reserved List they run and hide like they need to take it to Mount Doom to destroy it.
It ignores every other major issue people have with this product. It ignores the availability problem to other countries, it ignores the blatant walking back on promises made in the past, that we cant even get staple reprints we want/need and when we do theyre bumped up to some kind of premium
They'll walk back this promise, but when it comes to the Reserved List they run and hide like they need to take it to Mount Doom to destroy it.
Right? Like... how do you maintain any faith in this company any more.
I dont really want to discuss the reserve list here but the constant flip flopping on their own promises makes maintaining faith and trust next to impossible.
Which ends up begging the question; why bother if theres no integrity there.
Can someone please pin the card images to the 1st page of this thread. I just want to see the cards. I've seen Glen, Michonne, and Negan. Have I missed any?
How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
I'd love it if it makes them happy. Let people have their fun. It's 2020.
IP crossovers cards with no in-universe equivalent should not be legal by default because it dilutes MtGs own creative vision.
You play the cards you feel fit “MtGs own creative vision” in your eyes, and let others play their Godzillas, Transformers, My Little Ponies, Walkers, cartoon Goblins, and anime waifu Planeswalkers if it makes them happy. Don’t police what others may find fun or interesting. Let them enjoy their cards as you enjoy yours.
I knew that I'd be painted as some curmugdeon who tries to take other's fun away for this. However, that's not actually the case. I just don't want Magic to become the TCG equivalent of Super Smash Brothers. Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
Look, I fully get when people object to this because of the limited availability, or the price point, or the lack of international shipping. Valid points! Then there's folks who complain because they don't like Walking Dead (or other IP) cards and don't personally want to run those cards. Fine too!
But then you go one step further and want to ban these cards because you feel other people also shouldn't be allowed to run them, you go to far. When you talk about bans and legality you are policing the format and it's toxic. If someone gets a kick out of running these cards, let them. If someone wants to run these cards in some officially sanctioned EDH event, let them.
Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
[...]
But then you go one step further and want to ban these cards because you feel other people also shouldn't be allowed to run them, you go to far. When you talk about bans and legality you are policing the format and it's toxic. If someone gets a kick out of running these cards, let them. If someone wants to run these cards in some officially sanctioned EDH event, let them.
I thought more on their "it would look bad with two names" reasoning of WotC's. I'm sure the reason we are not seeing two names on the card isn't because of style, or whatever fancy word they wish to use, but instead because they don't have a second name for those cards. Considering they mentioned that down the road these cards will be printed correctly (my words) it's strange they don't have those names already figured out. It's rumored they were doing this for years and they don't have a plan in place for this? Really?
Honestly, if they had the second name in place that would have mitigated some of the issues many players have about this product as we knew that there was a plan in place eventually. Here we have a sort of tentative plan of reprint.
The thing is they didn’t even need to fully flesh out where the Magic appropriate legend would have come from they just needed ‘Name, Title’ and have them in alt-skin frames. Also not having the zombies be 2/2 black Zombies is dumb. If their excuse is ‘Oh well color doesn’t matter in TWD.’ is dumb because the cards that make them have colored mana costs and adhere to MTG rules. Not only that they don’t call them zombies in the franchise but Darryl and Michonne refer to Zombies in their abilities. So they broke immersion for TWD in one half and them when back to MTG immersion in the other half...which is stupid because it breaks immersion for people of both franchises.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
To the folks who think the the anger here is an overreaction: What happens when they screw around and printed something like, say Uro, Hogaak, or Oko for the first time in a drop like this rather than in a normal set? Something that, at first glance, may not be hugely strong but after some time becomes a format-defining mistake?
Warping a format around a limited-release card that not everyone has access to is a ticket to disaster for your player base. Sure, they can "Godzilla-style" reprint it later with a different name, but that would take at least a year considering the time it takes to get a wide set into print, which is FAR too long for a solution to that problem. Do you ban that card outright? Sounds like a good way to piss off anyone who paid the premium prices to buy your limited-release product from you, or at a higher price after the fact from a third party.
The problem with allowing something like this to skate by is that it sets a precedent that they can continue to pull stunts like this with no consequence. These cards may not rock the boat, but if no one holds them accountable, then there's nothing to stop them from printing new legal cards in more drops ad nauseum. Cards that aren't being tested for their impact on different formats because "They're just for fun for collectors and fans!". And if you think that they can self-police enough as to not randomly print broken things because they weren't tested properly, well... *Gestures wildly at the last 2 years of releases*
Wow. What makes everyone in the world entitled to get Magic cards (new or old) at the same price and rate of distribution?
That's a ridiculous argument, assumption, and a completely unrealistic expectation (for any product or service).
These cards... like many things, are seasonal fruit.
Do I complain that I can't get my favorite Malawi coffee, freshly squeezed tangelo juice, kiwi, coconut, or ripe cherries for cheap all year long when I reside in an area where none of them grow? By your logic, shouldn't I? I mean...they're all legal for a fruit salad! Instead, I'm happy I get apples and bananas at all, and I drank other coffees during the three year interim period I couldn't get what I really wanted to brew.
Now I know what you're thinking..."it's apples and oranges", and "we're brewing decks here, not coffee"
But seriously, globalization has really spoiled the lot of you complainers, and this is a perfect example of how ridiculous these complaint threads are.
As if WoTC owes you, me, or anyone else anything to begin with!
What's next?...A complaint thread about how some artists won't sign your cards for free?
As if Wizards doesn't have a right to make decisions about their own product distribution based on what research they determine is profitable for them (and not trivial community feedback from a small but vocal segment of players who for (insert random reason here) feel certain products aren't "fun", for them). The audacity!
Who among you thinks they're so much better than Maro at doing his job?
You all had a better game designs than Richard Garfield and your own printing facilities before all this began too I'm sure.
Hasbro is run by a bunch of game theory amateurs as well, right?
Geez. How ungrateful can you be?
You should all be polishing then kissing busts of their faces before saying a prayer every morning thanking them for contributing to your apparent need for this particular form of card-playing recreation! Don't like Magic anymore? Play some poker and try to make a profit that way. At least you won't have to build a multi-hundred to multi-thousand dollar deck to play!
I'd tell those among you who can do a better job than Maro to please can stand up now, but I suspect you'll all remain seated in silence because deep down you all know you're just a bunch of know-it-all whiny armchair critics who either missed the boat on cards which are now out of your price range on the secondary market (which is a reflection of the immense increasing popularity of this game and your own neglect to buy them sooner, not poor market anticipation or printing decisions by Wizards), or/or because now you can't afford to keep up with every new product Wizards designs and releases which you apparently don't even want or need to begin with.
Anyone who thinks everything should have the same rate of distribution and cost the same price everywhere completely ignores the logistics of business, where products are created or manufactured, shipping, warehouse storage, and employee costs, the costs of setting up storefront retail distribution networks, insurance, security, etc. Some regions simply don't have a dense enough population, or the average person has little if any interest in a particular product (assuming the demographic even has disposable income for such an expensive recreational hobby), and as such, Wizards won't plant their flag in some places, logically and reasonably so.
There are plenty of things available elsewhere that you and I can't get or have to pay extra for, so why is this any different or any more surprising or upsetting?
Want my advice?
Focus on fundamental priorities at a time like this; what you can do and can get to feel emotionally and operationally secure, not what you can't get or the "what if" drama of possibly sitting at a table with a commander player who uses a general you don't like which isn't even competitive and shouldn't disrupt your in-game strategy. Honestly, if you get so easily emotionally triggered by these or other cards, just take a deep breath, don't buy them, ignore their existence if you must, and refuse to play with anyone else who wants to. Then perhaps you'll have that sublime epiphany when you're sitting all alone (or with likeminded haters) and finally see how petty and immature you look and feel afterward.
Meanwhile, I'm almost motivated to order extra copies of this product purely out of spite just so I can sell them at a markup to the have-nots who complain today that they don't want them but will eventually, almost inevitably regret not buying them when they were cheaper as they scramble to get them once secondary market supply starts to dwindle and prices climb quickly which those who are smart enough among us already know will almost certainly be the case!
EDIT: I honestly wish Wizards would finally print a Legendary artifact called The World's Smallest Violin so I could include at least one copy in every sideboard!
A bit overboard there, Mystic, but its nice to know that there's at least one other adult in the room :/
Honestly I'm just going to buy some of these for the zombie tokens. They're legit the best part of the set and dollars to donuts they're the most expensive part when the dust settles. Probably going to give the characters away to my friends for a chuckle.
I'd love it if it makes them happy. Let people have their fun. It's 2020.
IP crossovers cards with no in-universe equivalent should not be legal by default because it dilutes MtGs own creative vision.
You play the cards you feel fit “MtGs own creative vision” in your eyes, and let others play their Godzillas, Transformers, My Little Ponies, Walkers, cartoon Goblins, and anime waifu Planeswalkers if it makes them happy. Don’t police what others may find fun or interesting. Let them enjoy their cards as you enjoy yours.
I knew that I'd be painted as some curmugdeon who tries to take other's fun away for this. However, that's not actually the case. I just don't want Magic to become the TCG equivalent of Super Smash Brothers. Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
Look, I fully get when people object to this because of the limited availability, or the price point, or the lack of international shipping. Valid points! Then there's folks who complain because they don't like Walking Dead (or other IP) cards and don't personally want to run those cards. Fine too!
But then you go one step further and want to ban these cards because you feel other people also shouldn't be allowed to run them, you go to far. When you talk about bans and legality you are policing the format and it's toxic. If someone gets a kick out of running these cards, let them. If someone wants to run these cards in some officially sanctioned EDH event, let them.
and yet house bans happen all the time thanks to the way the rules committee hides behind that one particular rule, but that's a-okay. silver border cards aren't legal anywhere either, except sometimes they're okay if the group agrees. why should that be okay and house banning these not be okay? just because of the black border? that's kind of silly. these things opened up so many cans of worms. a legit ban would've bypassed all of that, and you still could've house ruled them legal without stepping on someone's experience.
at the same time, they're extremely easy to hate on for all of the valid arguments against them and what that represents. you playing them by extension means you support those views and practices. you bought into it. that's how that works. that doesn't sit well with a lot of people who do not like this product. so if someone at the table or the entire rest of the table, hates what these mean for magic, hate having their immersion broken like that... well... now you're forcing that onto them. they don't have any say in how your cards are represented, and that can be a big thing for a lot of people. alters are one thing, they're just painted onto existing cards, not really a big deal and pretty creative too. they're not mechanically unique with no alternative, that's the most important thing to remember here. it's not joker's tutor with a unique ability, its the joker painted onto a demonic tutor. godzilla didn't sit right with some people, but was much more excusable because an alternative in-universe magic card existed, and was referenced directly on the card. that was an alright compromise for many.
your argument about forced views and toxic policing works both ways here. relative to this one product.
its an unnecessary mess that alienates the playerbase all just to try to turn a greater profit. i think we really have to ask if this is adding anything to the game, or if its detracting from it. right now, that answer is pretty obvious given the massive amount of backlash over them. at that point... is it worth pushing onto the players or was it a mistake?
I'm a Vorthos player. I play the game but I consume mostly because I enjoy exploring the themes, characters and setting. The lack of these being just "skins" and the fact that they are not silver-border, and therefore optional, bothers me greatly. These factors, as well as the FOMO, limited distribution, and response to the problem by WotC is all just too much. I've been slowly buying less MtG in recent years and the release of this product will only make my consumption even less limited.
Fellow EDH players beware: if you play with these cards I will consider it my personal mission to knock you out *of the game, even if I have to go down in flames along with you. There shall be no Quarto.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I'm a Vorthos player. I play the game but I consume mostly because I enjoy exploring the themes, characters and setting. The lack of these being just "skins" and the fact that they are not silver-border, and therefore optional, bothers me greatly. These factors, as well as the FOMO, limited distribution, and response to the problem by WotC is all just too much. I've been slowly buying less MtG in recent years and the release of this product will only make my consumption even less limited.
Fellow EDH players beware: if you play with these cards I will consider it my personal mission to knock you out *of the game, even if I have to go down in flames along with you. There shall be no Quarto.
"This product doesn't appeal to me, therefore I will bully anyone who enjoys it."
Thanks for succinctly summing up your side's entire argument.
Why is it apparently not okay, offensive, or upsetting if someone plays these new TWD characters, but it's perfectly alright if someone plays an altered Liliana which also has the potential to "break the player's immersion" with non-Magic related, often trademarked character representations who we could argue equally have no business or reason for being on Magic cards?
These cards were designed primarily as collectibles, and perhaps for Commander (if any format, since they're obviously not good enough to be played elsewhere). As we know (or should know by now), Commander is supposed to be a casual and friendly format, so the resistance and hostility towards said cards is particularly strange and unfounded. It's okay to be a competitive commander player and only want to play with and against the best decks possible. In fact, I fit into this category and will post photos of any of my decks (twenty one and counting) for those who are curious. However, not everyone wants to play traditional Magic the same way some people like to play novelty Risk or Monopoly variants (which I personally consider abominations). That's just the way it is. Games change, evolve, merge with other worlds and cultural phenomena, and get discontinued at times for better or worse, so just accept it, live, and let live.
Put things into perspective and ask yourselves...
Will these cards being printed really break the mold of your meta, or will they simply put you on tilt and break your concentration?
Does it have to be either?
What are the odds that people you play with will even get these, and then how often, if ever will you expect to play against them given the current health crisis?
Isn't this really all about giving us more zombie tokens?
See how easily your blood pressure went back down?
It's almost as if there are completionist collectors here <snip> who believe they need to get every card, but then get upset because some get printed on occasion which run contrary to the flavor they've come to love which creates a cascade overload of ethical conflicts in their primary processing subroutines.
I was surprised because I expected alternate art copies of existing cards (lord of the undead, death baron, gravecrawler, undead warchief, etc).
But to get upset over this product when they're still essentially printing money? It wasn't worth the energy
Of course I won't police people on this - if it gets too much, I'll just quietly leave.
[...]
But then you go one step further and want to ban these cards because you feel other people also shouldn't be allowed to run them, you go to far. When you talk about bans and legality you are policing the format and it's toxic. If someone gets a kick out of running these cards, let them. If someone wants to run these cards in some officially sanctioned EDH event, let them.
Uhhhh...
Scroll up and read the rest of the posts. Poster is calling for these cards not be legally playable. That's policing.
and yet house bans happen all the time thanks to the way the rules committee hides behind that one particular rule, but that's a-okay. silver border cards aren't legal anywhere either, except sometimes they're okay if the group agrees. why should that be okay and house banning these not be okay? just because of the black border? that's kind of silly. these things opened up so many cans of worms. a legit ban would've bypassed all of that, and you still could've house ruled them legal without stepping on someone's experience.
If you're OK with house rules being so different, then why ban anything at all? Your own group doesn't like these cards? Great! Problem solved, right? Just don't force your house rules on everyone else, and we're all good!
you playing them by extension means you support those views and practices. you bought into it. that's how that works.
A card is a card is a card. The player with their TWD card is no more responsible for the decisions of multi-billion-dollar-company Hasbro than the player playing Therese Nielsen cards, or Reserved List cards, or Nexus of Faith, or even the person with the War of the Spark novel on their shelves. Let people have their fun.
so if someone at the table or the entire rest of the table, hates what these mean for magic, hate having their immersion broken like that... well... now you're forcing that onto them.[...]
your argument about forced views and toxic policing works both ways here.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. You are responsible for how you feel. Other players aren't responsible for how you feel during a game of Magic, provided they play in good faith and are just wanting to have a good time and aren't purposely griefing you. This applies to every card, deck, or interaction. The person playing TWD cards isn't policing what you play, but you want to police what they play.
If these cards greatly upset you, not only when you play them (which you won't), but when you see others play them, that really is something for you to work out for yourself. Honestly, if you can't, then don't play with players who do. You don't have to! I'd rather you say "I don't like TWD cards therefor I won't play with players who run TWD cards" then "I don't like TWD cards therefor players can't play them when I'm around". The first let's you take ownership of your feelings, and consequences. The latter makes others responsible for your feelings, and suffer the consequences.
Ah yes, the "there are worse things out there so you can't complain about this specific thing" line of reasoning, the chef's kiss of logical fallacies as it were.
Even people that usually defend WotC are having issues with this product and there are plenty things to dislike about this. No one here has told others if they enjoy it that they are a terrible person. Those complaining are those that want to see the game do better and over the last couple years with many other choices it looks like this game is on shaky ground and this is just part of it.
If someone wants to like this and they get joy by buying this, then great, that's all on them and no one should stop them (unless buying this is a string of poor spending habits in which case it should be stopped). That said those that buy this should understand what this products means and how supporting it could affect the game in the long run.
There's has been a certain amount of overreaction from some people, but what do you expect? People have valid complaints with this product and they've been spelled out many times on this thread. Of course there's going to be some overreaction, just as some there will be some people who don't take it seriously enough. And even if someone is overreacting doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
The folks at WotC are good people. They want to make the game fun for everyone and nerds demonstrably LOVE when you mash up their favorite things, so of course they jumped at the chance to put two and two together. This was supposed to be a nice surprise for everyone who loves TWD or zombies, and they even made absolutely sure that the cards weren't anywhere near broken to keep the whiners from mewling, but no, we have to ***** all over their hard work for no legitimate reason. God forbid they try to make money as a business while doing cool things for us.
<snip>
And what points of his do you disagree with? Which parts of it were poorly thought out? How do you wish to rebut? So far you're the only one calling names here while accusing others of doing the same.
You know I only see you being mean-spirited. Maybe you can let people have their own opinions without flaming everyone? TIA
Honestly, if they had the second name in place that would have mitigated some of the issues many players have about this product as we knew that there was a plan in place eventually. Here we have a sort of tentative plan of reprint.
This is an interesting point to bring up as Smash has been getting diluted for years now. So many non Nintendo characters. I haven't played in years (not for any reason, just grew out of it) but each time I see characters like Ryu, Cloud, and now Minecraft (if they wanted a blocky character they could have just put out 8-bit Mario and Link) show up I can only sit there and go "Nintendo knows they have more characters, right?" (Midna, Geno, different Ganons, different pokemon trainers with starters of that generation) Some are acceptable (Sonic, Mega Man, Belmont, Bayonetta) but at this point it's no longer Nintendo characters up against each other. It's like Kingdom Hearts 3 with no Final Fantasy even though that was what made that series unique and one of its selling points.
Dilute a product too much and it stops being the thing you loved it for. Yes, evolving and improving is important, but something like this is not the way to go about it.
This is mostly how I feel. As long as it doesn't encroach on the storyline and stays within the realm of casual whimsical fun stuff, it's all good by me. Thankfully these products seem to have been limited to a mostly casual crowd and haven't invaded Magic as an actual game to any meaningful degree.
They seem to be emphasizing that theres plenty of product to buy, and that they'll reprint them with magic names/art "if needed"
Its so incredibly tone deaf, even still.
It ignores every other major issue people have with this product. It ignores the availability problem to other countries, it ignores the blatant walking back on promises made in the past, that we cant even get staple reprints we want/need and when we do theyre bumped up to some kind of premium
but dont worry guys! Theres plenty for us to buy! We'll love this product!
In the most exploitative, predatory way we can imagine.
That no one asked for.
How loud does the feedback need to get here for **** sake.
They'll walk back this promise, but when it comes to the Reserved List they run and hide like they need to take it to Mount Doom to destroy it.
Right? Like... how do you maintain any faith in this company any more.
I dont really want to discuss the reserve list here but the constant flip flopping on their own promises makes maintaining faith and trust next to impossible.
Which ends up begging the question; why bother if theres no integrity there.
Look, I fully get when people object to this because of the limited availability, or the price point, or the lack of international shipping. Valid points! Then there's folks who complain because they don't like Walking Dead (or other IP) cards and don't personally want to run those cards. Fine too!
But then you go one step further and want to ban these cards because you feel other people also shouldn't be allowed to run them, you go to far. When you talk about bans and legality you are policing the format and it's toxic. If someone gets a kick out of running these cards, let them. If someone wants to run these cards in some officially sanctioned EDH event, let them.
Uhhhh...
The thing is they didn’t even need to fully flesh out where the Magic appropriate legend would have come from they just needed ‘Name, Title’ and have them in alt-skin frames. Also not having the zombies be 2/2 black Zombies is dumb. If their excuse is ‘Oh well color doesn’t matter in TWD.’ is dumb because the cards that make them have colored mana costs and adhere to MTG rules. Not only that they don’t call them zombies in the franchise but Darryl and Michonne refer to Zombies in their abilities. So they broke immersion for TWD in one half and them when back to MTG immersion in the other half...which is stupid because it breaks immersion for people of both franchises.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
This has the details of the cards and tokens we've seen so far.
We've only seen 4 of the 5 cards and are missing some of the tokens. Probably more Walkers and maybe a few Treasures.
Warping a format around a limited-release card that not everyone has access to is a ticket to disaster for your player base. Sure, they can "Godzilla-style" reprint it later with a different name, but that would take at least a year considering the time it takes to get a wide set into print, which is FAR too long for a solution to that problem. Do you ban that card outright? Sounds like a good way to piss off anyone who paid the premium prices to buy your limited-release product from you, or at a higher price after the fact from a third party.
The problem with allowing something like this to skate by is that it sets a precedent that they can continue to pull stunts like this with no consequence. These cards may not rock the boat, but if no one holds them accountable, then there's nothing to stop them from printing new legal cards in more drops ad nauseum. Cards that aren't being tested for their impact on different formats because "They're just for fun for collectors and fans!". And if you think that they can self-police enough as to not randomly print broken things because they weren't tested properly, well... *Gestures wildly at the last 2 years of releases*
That's a ridiculous argument, assumption, and a completely unrealistic expectation (for any product or service).
These cards... like many things, are seasonal fruit.
Do I complain that I can't get my favorite Malawi coffee, freshly squeezed tangelo juice, kiwi, coconut, or ripe cherries for cheap all year long when I reside in an area where none of them grow? By your logic, shouldn't I? I mean...they're all legal for a fruit salad! Instead, I'm happy I get apples and bananas at all, and I drank other coffees during the three year interim period I couldn't get what I really wanted to brew.
Now I know what you're thinking..."it's apples and oranges", and "we're brewing decks here, not coffee"
But seriously, globalization has really spoiled the lot of you complainers, and this is a perfect example of how ridiculous these complaint threads are.
As if WoTC owes you, me, or anyone else anything to begin with!
What's next?...A complaint thread about how some artists won't sign your cards for free?
As if Wizards doesn't have a right to make decisions about their own product distribution based on what research they determine is profitable for them (and not trivial community feedback from a small but vocal segment of players who for (insert random reason here) feel certain products aren't "fun", for them). The audacity!
Who among you thinks they're so much better than Maro at doing his job?
You all had a better game designs than Richard Garfield and your own printing facilities before all this began too I'm sure.
Hasbro is run by a bunch of game theory amateurs as well, right?
Geez. How ungrateful can you be?
You should all be polishing then kissing busts of their faces before saying a prayer every morning thanking them for contributing to your apparent need for this particular form of card-playing recreation! Don't like Magic anymore? Play some poker and try to make a profit that way. At least you won't have to build a multi-hundred to multi-thousand dollar deck to play!
I'd tell those among you who can do a better job than Maro to please can stand up now, but I suspect you'll all remain seated in silence because deep down you all know you're just a bunch of know-it-all whiny armchair critics who either missed the boat on cards which are now out of your price range on the secondary market (which is a reflection of the immense increasing popularity of this game and your own neglect to buy them sooner, not poor market anticipation or printing decisions by Wizards), or/or because now you can't afford to keep up with every new product Wizards designs and releases which you apparently don't even want or need to begin with.
Anyone who thinks everything should have the same rate of distribution and cost the same price everywhere completely ignores the logistics of business, where products are created or manufactured, shipping, warehouse storage, and employee costs, the costs of setting up storefront retail distribution networks, insurance, security, etc. Some regions simply don't have a dense enough population, or the average person has little if any interest in a particular product (assuming the demographic even has disposable income for such an expensive recreational hobby), and as such, Wizards won't plant their flag in some places, logically and reasonably so.
There are plenty of things available elsewhere that you and I can't get or have to pay extra for, so why is this any different or any more surprising or upsetting?
Want my advice?
Focus on fundamental priorities at a time like this; what you can do and can get to feel emotionally and operationally secure, not what you can't get or the "what if" drama of possibly sitting at a table with a commander player who uses a general you don't like which isn't even competitive and shouldn't disrupt your in-game strategy. Honestly, if you get so easily emotionally triggered by these or other cards, just take a deep breath, don't buy them, ignore their existence if you must, and refuse to play with anyone else who wants to. Then perhaps you'll have that sublime epiphany when you're sitting all alone (or with likeminded haters) and finally see how petty and immature you look and feel afterward.
Meanwhile, I'm almost motivated to order extra copies of this product purely out of spite just so I can sell them at a markup to the have-nots who complain today that they don't want them but will eventually, almost inevitably regret not buying them when they were cheaper as they scramble to get them once secondary market supply starts to dwindle and prices climb quickly which those who are smart enough among us already know will almost certainly be the case!
EDIT: I honestly wish Wizards would finally print a Legendary artifact called The World's Smallest Violin so I could include at least one copy in every sideboard!
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Honestly I'm just going to buy some of these for the zombie tokens. They're legit the best part of the set and dollars to donuts they're the most expensive part when the dust settles. Probably going to give the characters away to my friends for a chuckle.
and yet house bans happen all the time thanks to the way the rules committee hides behind that one particular rule, but that's a-okay. silver border cards aren't legal anywhere either, except sometimes they're okay if the group agrees. why should that be okay and house banning these not be okay? just because of the black border? that's kind of silly. these things opened up so many cans of worms. a legit ban would've bypassed all of that, and you still could've house ruled them legal without stepping on someone's experience.
at the same time, they're extremely easy to hate on for all of the valid arguments against them and what that represents. you playing them by extension means you support those views and practices. you bought into it. that's how that works. that doesn't sit well with a lot of people who do not like this product. so if someone at the table or the entire rest of the table, hates what these mean for magic, hate having their immersion broken like that... well... now you're forcing that onto them. they don't have any say in how your cards are represented, and that can be a big thing for a lot of people. alters are one thing, they're just painted onto existing cards, not really a big deal and pretty creative too. they're not mechanically unique with no alternative, that's the most important thing to remember here. it's not joker's tutor with a unique ability, its the joker painted onto a demonic tutor. godzilla didn't sit right with some people, but was much more excusable because an alternative in-universe magic card existed, and was referenced directly on the card. that was an alright compromise for many.
your argument about forced views and toxic policing works both ways here. relative to this one product.
its an unnecessary mess that alienates the playerbase all just to try to turn a greater profit. i think we really have to ask if this is adding anything to the game, or if its detracting from it. right now, that answer is pretty obvious given the massive amount of backlash over them. at that point... is it worth pushing onto the players or was it a mistake?
No, not really.
I'm a Vorthos player. I play the game but I consume mostly because I enjoy exploring the themes, characters and setting. The lack of these being just "skins" and the fact that they are not silver-border, and therefore optional, bothers me greatly. These factors, as well as the FOMO, limited distribution, and response to the problem by WotC is all just too much. I've been slowly buying less MtG in recent years and the release of this product will only make my consumption even less limited.
Fellow EDH players beware: if you play with these cards I will consider it my personal mission to knock you out *of the game, even if I have to go down in flames along with you. There shall be no Quarto.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
"This product doesn't appeal to me, therefore I will bully anyone who enjoys it."
Thanks for succinctly summing up your side's entire argument.
These cards were designed primarily as collectibles, and perhaps for Commander (if any format, since they're obviously not good enough to be played elsewhere). As we know (or should know by now), Commander is supposed to be a casual and friendly format, so the resistance and hostility towards said cards is particularly strange and unfounded. It's okay to be a competitive commander player and only want to play with and against the best decks possible. In fact, I fit into this category and will post photos of any of my decks (twenty one and counting) for those who are curious. However, not everyone wants to play traditional Magic the same way some people like to play novelty Risk or Monopoly variants (which I personally consider abominations). That's just the way it is. Games change, evolve, merge with other worlds and cultural phenomena, and get discontinued at times for better or worse, so just accept it, live, and let live.
Put things into perspective and ask yourselves...
Will these cards being printed really break the mold of your meta, or will they simply put you on tilt and break your concentration?
Does it have to be either?
What are the odds that people you play with will even get these, and then how often, if ever will you expect to play against them given the current health crisis?
Isn't this really all about giving us more zombie tokens?
See how easily your blood pressure went back down?
It's almost as if there are completionist collectors here <snip> who believe they need to get every card, but then get upset because some get printed on occasion which run contrary to the flavor they've come to love which creates a cascade overload of ethical conflicts in their primary processing subroutines.
I was surprised because I expected alternate art copies of existing cards (lord of the undead, death baron, gravecrawler, undead warchief, etc).
But to get upset over this product when they're still essentially printing money? It wasn't worth the energy
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Scroll up and read the rest of the posts. Poster is calling for these cards not be legally playable. That's policing.
If you're OK with house rules being so different, then why ban anything at all? Your own group doesn't like these cards? Great! Problem solved, right? Just don't force your house rules on everyone else, and we're all good!
A card is a card is a card. The player with their TWD card is no more responsible for the decisions of multi-billion-dollar-company Hasbro than the player playing Therese Nielsen cards, or Reserved List cards, or Nexus of Faith, or even the person with the War of the Spark novel on their shelves. Let people have their fun.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. You are responsible for how you feel. Other players aren't responsible for how you feel during a game of Magic, provided they play in good faith and are just wanting to have a good time and aren't purposely griefing you. This applies to every card, deck, or interaction. The person playing TWD cards isn't policing what you play, but you want to police what they play.
If these cards greatly upset you, not only when you play them (which you won't), but when you see others play them, that really is something for you to work out for yourself. Honestly, if you can't, then don't play with players who do. You don't have to! I'd rather you say "I don't like TWD cards therefor I won't play with players who run TWD cards" then "I don't like TWD cards therefor players can't play them when I'm around". The first let's you take ownership of your feelings, and consequences. The latter makes others responsible for your feelings, and suffer the consequences.