If you’re in Blue you should already have a ton of cards in hand, so this could easily and very likely will usually grab you more than 7 cards. Especially in EDH, where it will have the most relevance no matter what.
True but don't having anything (outside memory) to represent a gamestate change that will be in place for the rest of the game is also bad.
At least on Arena ppl can see the reminder as a emblem (for all things that changes the game, even Stomp or Fog effects that will only be active for one turn).
For ppl playing this in EDH/commander/cube (don't see it being played anywhere else) having to remember of this effect without a token/emblem will be hard and deliver a bad play experience.
I've never heard anyone complain about Praetor's Counsel, or monstrosity, or exert, etc. Do you get frustrated by effects that prevent you from untapping a given permanent on your next turn?
I've never heard anyone complain about Praetor's Counsel, or monstrosity, or exert, etc. Do you get frustrated by effects that prevent you from untapping a given permanent on your next turn?
*Praetor's Counsel should create an emblem.
*Monstrosity usually was represented by the +1/+1 counter on the permanent so it was easy to see if something was monstrous or not.
*Exert and freeze are both pretty annoying mechanic for however there are degrees. Getting frozen in the other players turn is usually not an issue. I know what not to untap. Getting frozen in my turn (or exerted for that matter) plays a lot less nice. And yes, I think exert was a pretty bad mechanic.
True but don't having anything (outside memory) to represent a gamestate change that will be in place for the rest of the game is also bad.
At least on Arena ppl can see the reminder as a emblem (for all things that changes the game, even Stomp or Fog effects that will only be active for one turn).
For ppl playing this in EDH/commander/cube (don't see it being played anywhere else) having to remember of this effect without a token/emblem will be hard and deliver a bad play experience.
I've never heard anyone complain about Praetor's Counsel, or monstrosity, or exert, etc. Do you get frustrated by effects that prevent you from untapping a given permanent on your next turn?
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People forget about Preator's Counsel after 10 turns, yeah..
Monstrosity do have counters to represent this, and when something gives counters to a creature with Monstrosity ppl have to remember that it is not monstruous yet, in its time it caused alot of discussion and if i remember right one of the designers comemted about it and +1+1 counters (maybe around Rav Allegiances but can be wrong on that one)
Found:
Monstrosity was our answer. Monsters had a one-time upgrade which would make them bigger and often grant them other abilities. The mechanic originally had a "use once per game" restriction, but it was later changed to reference if creatures were "monstrous," which meant the ability had been used. As that always created some number of +1/+1 counters, we used the counters as a memory aide.To make it clear that those counters were created by a monstrosity effect rather than some other means, we severely cut down the ways in Theros block to put +1/+1 counters onto other creatures. The set mostly gave creatures ways to put +1/+1 counters on themselves.
Monstrosity was used in Theros. We removed it from Born of the Gods to make way for other mechanics. In Journey into Nyx, we realized the error of our ways and brought monstrosity back. That's the only time (to my memory) that we used a named keyword mechanic in the first and third sets in a block and not the second. Monstrosity would later be used in Commander (2015 Edition) and Conspiracy: Take the Crown.
The Set Design team liked monstrosity, but there were a couple of problems. One was the +1/+1 counter issue. Simic was a guild centered on generating +1/+1 counters. Having the restriction that it couldn't put +1/+1 counters onto other creatures just fought against how the guild wanted to work. The second problem was the name monstrosity. While other members of Ravnica might see the Simic's creations as monsters, the Simic didn't. It didn't feel right using a word that the guild wouldn't use about itself.
The solution to this problem was to tweak the mechanic, which would also allow us to change its name. Monstrosity became adapt. Now, instead of caring if the creature was "monstrous" (aka whether the ability had been activated), it now just looks for whether there's +1/+1 counters on the creature. This creates two new interactions. One, if you remove the counters from the creature, you're allowed to activate adapt again, and two, if you can somehow get +1/+1 counters onto an adapt creature, you can prevent it from using the ability. And that is how adapt came to be the Simic mechanic.
Exert had its own token in boosters and to this day ppl still use counters to remember.
I mean, proplayers use dice to remember of upkeep and start of turn effects (they place the dice above their deck soo they don't draw and say die from a pact..)
Sagas happen after the draw step and do get counters to represent their stage (and can be manipulated by removing counters) (with the layout of the card one could make the argument that sagas should not have counters and ppl should just remember the last chapter that happened...)
Signaling the imminent return of the Phyrexian praetors, no doubt. I'm amused by the prospect that Jin-Gitaxias would be taking lessons from Vorinclex on matters of hand size.
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Elaborate?
I dont think removing hand size signals anything other than that this is a blue card
As for the card itself... i dont like it. At that mana cost and sorcery speed you cant afford to do nothing for a turn just to refuel. That amount of mana is where games end, so tapping down everything just to draw more is a sure way to eat it to the face and lose given word vomit palooza that is the current approach to creature design
Praetor's Counsel doesn't need an emblem. If its hard for you to remember then make one yourself as a helpful reminder. Emblems are just reminders, that's why there's no interaction with them. Players are more than welcome to make themselves reminders and use them.
It's no different than simply marking on a life pad that you have no max hand size or that you made a specific creature monstrous.
That kind of bookkeeping is welcomed by most judges I know because it keeps game states straightened out.
So what youre saying is no max hand size is a uniquely phyrexian thing?
Or is that not what youre saying.
Im sorry im just not seeing any connection here. Even less so when we take into account no phyrexia set is upcoming in the next year.
I was just drawing a humorous, and perhaps overly nebulous, comparison between Sea Gate Restoration and Praetor's Counsel. Similar cost, similar effects, similar application (see: EDH). I was also alluding to the art in Praetor's Counsel referencing Vorinclex rather than Jin-Gitaxias, the latter being the obvious reference point for hand size based effects within that particular sphere of influence.
Praetor's Counsel doesn't need an emblem. If its hard for you to remember then make one yourself as a helpful reminder. Emblems are just reminders, that's why there's no interaction with them. Players are more than welcome to make themselves reminders and use them.
It's no different than simply marking on a life pad that you have no max hand size or that you made a specific creature monstrous.
That kind of bookkeeping is welcomed by most judges I know because it keeps game states straightened out.
Preator's Consel exiles itself so the card acts alread like a Emblem (and ppl can still forget it), now think about this card that doesn't exile itself and give no clue of its previous casting, in this case of no self exile a emblem would be better.
Despite the draw effect not being above water for the manacost, the land side does makeup for it not being a dead card in hand from the start of the game.
Memorial to Genius is the strictly better card for me here (and that is just an UC... why is this mythic?)
you can use both, the mana early and the draw late
while this card... tse... they even dare to make it a sorcery
this set is so trash, and everyone i know was hyped for it and now no one buys a box, even though there are box toppers
There is nothing triggering the flip. You either play them as the spell or as the land.
However, the spell part is always the front face, in all zones. You cannot search for these cards with anything that searches lands.
What you theoretically could do is play it as a land, then later bounce the land and cast the spell side.
Ah cool, as a 20+ year veteran of MtG I just could not understand these flip cards for the life of me. I searched online for the rules and even though it was probably obvious where to find the rules, I couldn't figure it out. Thanks!
I am actually well aware of Wizards' decision (and reasoning) on the whole emblem thing. I think that all "for the rest of the game" effects should be represented by something (and emblems are already in the rules). In fact Elspeth's original effect has the same wording.
I am also not of the opinion that I should accept the status quo if I disagree with it and lower my expectations to not be disappointed if the status quo is delivered.
I agree, at this point there should just be a generic emblem with "you have no maximum hand size" if they are going to keep making cards that have that effect.
When I have an effect like this, usually from Praetor's Counsel, I just leave the card on the field as the "emblem." Now of course this doesn't exile and therefore you could forget it's in your graveyard if you did that, but that's a whatever.
This card is not very good. Seems like all of these DFCs in this set I'm thinking more of as a land first and spell second rather than how they are literally printed.
Yeah... is everybody calling it bad just not an EDH player, or are you just trying to combo out and win before turn 7 in cEDH? I think it's actually quite playable.
Yeah... is everybody calling it bad just not an EDH player, or are you just trying to combo out and win before turn 7 in cEDH? I think it's actually quite playable.
Or it could be that it's possible this card only does something if you already have a decent hand of cards. At worst it's seven mana draw one and have infinite hand size, which does nothing with one card in hand, and at best it's a big blue draw spell with Reliquary Tower attached (and you can just play Reliquary Tower anyways). It's issue is that unlike other big blue draw spells, like Blue Sun's Zenith and Mind Spring, it's harder to control how much you can draw.
This card isn't bad, but it's most certainly not great. At 7 mana it's not hard to expect more from a card and for this one it's only sometimes amazing.
I don't want to even get into the "Do you want to play 3 life to play an Island?"
It slots pretty handily into any (or all) of the top Izzet commanders, unless we're pretending that redundancy in the 99 is a bad thing. Is Boundless Realms also a bad card just because you can ramp into it with mana rocks? Or do we admit that the optimal play is to wait for a larger board state / hand size, respectively? It's not win-more in the decks that want it, but it can definitely be a part of your win condition.
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I've never heard anyone complain about Praetor's Counsel, or monstrosity, or exert, etc. Do you get frustrated by effects that prevent you from untapping a given permanent on your next turn?
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#DefundThePolice
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*Praetor's Counsel should create an emblem.
*Monstrosity usually was represented by the +1/+1 counter on the permanent so it was easy to see if something was monstrous or not.
*Exert and freeze are both pretty annoying mechanic for however there are degrees. Getting frozen in the other players turn is usually not an issue. I know what not to untap. Getting frozen in my turn (or exerted for that matter) plays a lot less nice. And yes, I think exert was a pretty bad mechanic.
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For the great Miss Y!
People forget about Preator's Counsel after 10 turns, yeah..
Monstrosity do have counters to represent this, and when something gives counters to a creature with Monstrosity ppl have to remember that it is not monstruous yet, in its time it caused alot of discussion and if i remember right one of the designers comemted about it and +1+1 counters (maybe around Rav Allegiances but can be wrong on that one)
Found:
Exert had its own token in boosters and to this day ppl still use counters to remember.
I mean, proplayers use dice to remember of upkeep and start of turn effects (they place the dice above their deck soo they don't draw and say die from a pact..)
Sagas happen after the draw step and do get counters to represent their stage (and can be manipulated by removing counters) (with the layout of the card one could make the argument that sagas should not have counters and ppl should just remember the last chapter that happened...)
So what youre saying is no max hand size is a uniquely phyrexian thing?
Or is that not what youre saying.
Im sorry im just not seeing any connection here. Even less so when we take into account no phyrexia set is upcoming in the next year.
It's no different than simply marking on a life pad that you have no max hand size or that you made a specific creature monstrous.
That kind of bookkeeping is welcomed by most judges I know because it keeps game states straightened out.
I was just drawing a humorous, and perhaps overly nebulous, comparison between Sea Gate Restoration and Praetor's Counsel. Similar cost, similar effects, similar application (see: EDH). I was also alluding to the art in Praetor's Counsel referencing Vorinclex rather than Jin-Gitaxias, the latter being the obvious reference point for hand size based effects within that particular sphere of influence.
Sincere apologies for not being more clear.
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Preator's Consel exiles itself so the card acts alread like a Emblem (and ppl can still forget it), now think about this card that doesn't exile itself and give no clue of its previous casting, in this case of no self exile a emblem would be better.
you can use both, the mana early and the draw late
while this card... tse... they even dare to make it a sorcery
this set is so trash, and everyone i know was hyped for it and now no one buys a box, even though there are box toppers
However, the spell part is always the front face, in all zones. You cannot search for these cards with anything that searches lands.
What you theoretically could do is play it as a land, then later bounce the land and cast the spell side.
Ah cool, as a 20+ year veteran of MtG I just could not understand these flip cards for the life of me. I searched online for the rules and even though it was probably obvious where to find the rules, I couldn't figure it out. Thanks!
I agree, at this point there should just be a generic emblem with "you have no maximum hand size" if they are going to keep making cards that have that effect.
When I have an effect like this, usually from Praetor's Counsel, I just leave the card on the field as the "emblem." Now of course this doesn't exile and therefore you could forget it's in your graveyard if you did that, but that's a whatever.
This card is not very good. Seems like all of these DFCs in this set I'm thinking more of as a land first and spell second rather than how they are literally printed.
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Or it could be that it's possible this card only does something if you already have a decent hand of cards. At worst it's seven mana draw one and have infinite hand size, which does nothing with one card in hand, and at best it's a big blue draw spell with Reliquary Tower attached (and you can just play Reliquary Tower anyways). It's issue is that unlike other big blue draw spells, like Blue Sun's Zenith and Mind Spring, it's harder to control how much you can draw.
This card isn't bad, but it's most certainly not great. At 7 mana it's not hard to expect more from a card and for this one it's only sometimes amazing.
I don't want to even get into the "Do you want to play 3 life to play an Island?"
It slots pretty handily into any (or all) of the top Izzet commanders, unless we're pretending that redundancy in the 99 is a bad thing. Is Boundless Realms also a bad card just because you can ramp into it with mana rocks? Or do we admit that the optimal play is to wait for a larger board state / hand size, respectively? It's not win-more in the decks that want it, but it can definitely be a part of your win condition.
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#DefundThePolice