the Gaulish barbarians already evoked by the Gruul
I am genuinely interested in hearing your case about what makes the Gruul gaul-inspired. Because in the game I know and play, the gruul are based on the mainstream perception of anarchists mixed with the punk subculture. Which, truth be told, was, at least visually, mostly done in Return to Ravnica. But even in original Ravnica the Gruul were more anarchists than barbarians with an aesthetic that had nothing to do with the gauls, at all.
I'll answer this as soon as I'm able, hopefully tomorrow. To address a subsequent post of yours, I'm not sure slavery (in any context) would be appropriate right now, given the current political climate.
I really, really don't get how someone can say the two settigns are too similar.
Because I have a BA in history, by way of Roman studies, and sometimes teach world history to 7th graders? The allusions are rather obvious, especially when taken together. You're right, just about any individual trope could fit on any plane, but I don't think that's ever been advocated. And, frankly, I think you're looking at the guilds through the wrong lens; the Orzhov, for example, aren't just a bank - they're a Byzantine representation of the early church.
What does Ravnica have to do with rome? Apart from the fact it has a legion and a senate, which have become pretty generic words, there's nothing roman about Ravnica.
Geez. Didnt we do this, on this message board, two yeas ago, and a few years before that? To sum up at least 14 pages of comments across 3 threads, No. Ravinica was not a top-down plane intended to be Rome.
But.
If one were to do such a thing, the result would look an awful lot like Ravnica. The focus is on "The City" and urban life. Fations, mystery cults, ethnic divisions between establishment groups and slavic newcomers, the architecture reflecting same, the promised previous (several) social contract(s) never being fully implemented so the current state of things reflects the capriciousness of who benefited from the incompleteness and who didn't, even the risk of committee/Republican rule being co-opted by a dictator... One would have to go to a LOT of effort to make a Rome-world more Roman than Ravnica.
I highly doubt that if Magic ever does a roman plane that they will focus on rome entirely. Rome, the empire, was much more than rome, the city.
Most of the points you listed are so generic and universal that they've actually been done in other planes multiple times without feeling like Ravnica.
I don't really understand your claim at all. Saying that a roman plane will be like Ravnica makes even less sense than saying that Kaladesh feels like Ravnica, because both took place exclusively inside a city.
Personally I think that a huge part of a roman plane identity will be the "endless conquest" trope that the roman empire was known for (and what made it so big), something which Ravnica distinctly lacks. Add in the "city heart of the empire" trope which Ravnica doesn't really cover, because it's all city; as well as gladiator fights, which Ravnica only really touched upon vaguely with the Rakdos, much much less than Dominaria.
Interestingly, my vision of a Roman setting is so heavily influenced by things like Gladiator and Spartacus that I can only see it through the lens of a decadent and uncaring social elite governing a military class bent upon expansion and conquering, with an exploited and oppressed slave class used by the elites to be exploited for resources, entertainment, or both. Those elements are inextricably linked to how I perceive the Roman Empire. I wouldn't ordinarily chime in since my understanding of Rome is limited to mainly tidbits of history classes and pop culture, but I think in this instance it bears mentioning since WotC often defers to common tropes and expectations of common knowledge when using real world influences for settings. I can't imagine them doing a Roman setting and not drawing substantially from things like Gladiator and Spartacus.
Like Kylem by way of Ravnica?
Rome is... complicated. If we define it too narrowly, we're doing a great disservice to a civilization that spanned the known western world for over half a millennium. If we define it too broadly, we run the risk of making almost any plane comparable (or relevant) by some metric. For most of its existence, I think it's fair to observe that the city very much was Rome, especially for the elites whose republican prerogatives hinged on full citizenship. That's where comparisons to Ravnica ultimately tie in, whatever your take on the individual guilds might be. While I can see some form of gladiatorial combat perhaps being foundational to another plane entirely (such as Kylem, as you just pointed out), I think it also bears mentioning that the Rakdos already epitomize the gratuitous spectacle and blood sport that Romans were so very fond of.
I'd like to see two sets on the same plane, we've yet to have that since Ixalan and I miss it a little bit.
Guilds/Allegiance/War don’t count?
Good point. Not sure how I didn't remember it, considering the strength of the cards and what the story actually meant, but I guess I care about that much less than I thought.
I try and keep up with the story fairly well, but the ending of Bolas I only know as Dack died, Gideon died, Chandra and Nissa may or may not be lesbians, and Bolas lost. That's it.
Because I have a BA in history, by way of Roman studies, and sometimes teach world history to 7th graders? The allusions are rather obvious, especially when taken together. You're right, just about any individual trope could fit on any plane, but I don't think that's ever been advocated. And, frankly, I think you're looking at the guilds through the wrong lens; the Orzhov, for example, aren't just a bank - they're a Byzantine representation of the early church.
I think the danger of sophistry runs high here. If they make a Roman set its going to center around EMPIRE in some way obviously.
It's just a hunch, but I think one of the new sets will take us to "the Nordic plane". That one has been a likely candidate for such a long time at this point, it'd be weird to see other top-down planes like Roman Empire or Wild West first.
Innistrad seems like a sure bet. I'm hoping for something truly surprising though, like a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor or Kamigawa. They could do something really special with Kamigawa by having only Japanese artists do the card art and maybe even have a Japanese artist in charge of the art direction to revamp the aesthetic of the plane to make it more palatable for general consumers.
Because I have a BA in history, by way of Roman studies, and sometimes teach world history to 7th graders? The allusions are rather obvious, especially when taken together. You're right, just about any individual trope could fit on any plane, but I don't think that's ever been advocated. And, frankly, I think you're looking at the guilds through the wrong lens; the Orzhov, for example, aren't just a bank - they're a Byzantine representation of the early church.
I think the danger of sophistry runs high here.
What's the value of such an accusation if you're not going to substantiate it with evidence?
Quote from Marl Karx »
If they make a Roman set its going to center around EMPIRE in some way obviously.
Obviously. Care to remind me what that looks like?
Innistrad seems like a sure bet. I'm hoping for something truly surprising though, like a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor or Kamigawa. They could do something really special with Kamigawa by having only Japanese artists do the card art and maybe even have a Japanese artist in charge of the art direction to revamp the aesthetic of the plane to make it more palatable for general consumers.
that would probably be the showcase art cards if we went back to Kamigawa
if we do go back i hope they still keep the spirit tribal stuff and finally give us a 5-color spirit tribal legend (clearly its not happening in Commander legends since were only going up to 3 colors in that)
Innistrad seems like a sure bet. I'm hoping for something truly surprising though, like a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor or Kamigawa. They could do something really special with Kamigawa by having only Japanese artists do the card art and maybe even have a Japanese artist in charge of the art direction to revamp the aesthetic of the plane to make it more palatable for general consumers.
Bring back Ittoku. I loved his work and that of several Japanese artists in the original Kamigawa. With the Kami War over, there's less of an emphasis on abstract, alien art like Kami manifestations and the plane can focus on being MTG's take on Japan now.
Red country by Joe Abercrombie depicts a medieval west style world very well, so if they went that way it would be great. As soon as they add any sort of guns then it would fail.
I personally loved the kamigawa setting and it's not the plane's fault that the cards sucked so bad. Hard pass on innistrad 3 please, for at least like ten years
To address a subsequent post of yours, I'm not sure slavery (in any context) would be appropriate right now, given the current political climate.
Maybe? Truth be told, I cannot really say much on this matter as I am not affected by past slavery, but I'd assume that you could make slavery on a rome-inspired world different enough from the real life context to not feel poor in taste. Make a large part of the slavery be about indentured servitude rather than capturing people and if you do have prisoners of war slaves, make them barbarians from the north, which would look european, which not only feels natural given the source material but also avoids bad optics, given current events.
And, frankly, I think you're looking at the guilds through the wrong lens; the Orzhov, for example, aren't just a bank - they're a Byzantine representation of the early church.
I never claimed the orzhov were only a bank, but that is their core. They are a bank first and foremost and the religion is just a farce, a mask, both thematically and aesthetically. Everything about their design, including the masked thrulls is about hiding their true identity from the public.
I am also not sure I'd call them a representation of the early church. The orzhov are not a state religion. In fact they are rivaled by the selesnians for being the major religion on Ravnica. Even so I'd doubt that an ancient rome plane would focus on the church part, because I'd wager a guess that for most people "ancient rome" is understood as the pre christian era.
Rome is... complicated. If we define it too narrowly, we're doing a great disservice to a civilization that spanned the known western world for over half a millennium.
I mean, ancient egypt existed for far, far longer and they didn't even make Amonkhet "100%" ancient egypt, rather stuffing out the rest of the world with a "corrupted by great evil" trope. Picking a more narrow range of tropes is probably what creative is going to aim for anyway, to give the setting a more defined feel.
If we define it too broadly, we run the risk of making almost any plane comparable (or relevant) by some metric. For most of its existence, I think it's fair to observe that the city very much was Rome, especially for the elites whose republican prerogatives hinged on full citizenship. That's where comparisons to Ravnica ultimately tie in, whatever your take on the individual guilds might be. While I can see some form of gladiatorial combat perhaps being foundational to another plane entirely (such as Kylem, as you just pointed out), I think it also bears mentioning that the Rakdos already epitomize the gratuitous spectacle and blood sport that Romans were so very fond of.
I feel like you're doing here what you advised against at the start of this quote: Going over the tropes too broadly. Yes, Ravnica (Rakdos) has gladiatorial combat, but not exclusively and it's such a minor part as to be almost nonexistent. Gladiatorial combat is not a central part of Ravnica. Neither is elitism, nor bureaucracy or political tugs of war. Yes, they are part of Ravnica, but only because they naturally fit into the core of it: Ravnica is the metropolis world, a fantasy take on the modern metropolis. It's not the capital of a larger empire. There is no "outside" Ravnica (unless you call places like the rubblebelt the outside... which would technically be correct but also kinda weird to put it like that). Ravnica is just Ravnica. And everything that exists inside it exists because it naturally fits, not because the city plane was built around these concepts.*
Contrast this with a roman plane: The major city would also be something you could call a fantasy metropolis, but its significance inside the setting, its interaction with and contextual placement inside the world will be entirely different.
Also something I wanted to mention: The Rakdos are not about gladiatorial combat. They do have that, but that's by far not "the thing" they do. It's just one of many things. The Rakdos are closer to a (modern) circus (with lethal tendencies) than a colisseum. Saying that the Rakdos are about arena fights is as weird as saying modern circuses are about horses. Like, no, horses are part of it, but they're not "the thing" by any stretch of the imagination.
*Disclaimer: Ravnica -the card set/block- was not built around being a city, but around the ten two-colour combinations. Making them into ten guilds set in a large city just seemed like the natural thing to do I suppose. Nevertheless, the city tropes came after deciding to make it into a city plane, not before.
Innistrad seems like a sure bet. I'm hoping for something truly surprising though, like a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor or Kamigawa. They could do something really special with Kamigawa by having only Japanese artists do the card art and maybe even have a Japanese artist in charge of the art direction to revamp the aesthetic of the plane to make it more palatable for general consumers.
Bring back Ittoku. I loved his work and that of several Japanese artists in the original Kamigawa. With the Kami War over, there's less of an emphasis on abstract, alien art like Kami manifestations and the plane can focus on being MTG's take on Japan now.
Ittoku and Shishizaru are two of my favorite magic artists.
Innistrad seems like a sure bet. I'm hoping for something truly surprising though, like a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor or Kamigawa. They could do something really special with Kamigawa by having only Japanese artists do the card art and maybe even have a Japanese artist in charge of the art direction to revamp the aesthetic of the plane to make it more palatable for general consumers.
Bring back Ittoku. I loved his work and that of several Japanese artists in the original Kamigawa. With the Kami War over, there's less of an emphasis on abstract, alien art like Kami manifestations and the plane can focus on being MTG's take on Japan now.
Ittoku and Shishizaru are two of my favorite magic artists.
Honestly, I wish MTG would acknowledge that when abstract, eyesore artwork is the focus, it's unpopular. People like fantasy to be remarkable but still relatable - hence why humans perform best in market research. If Eldrazi can ruin a plane as beloved and admired as Zendikar, then it's an indication of what Kami art could do to an otherwise popular setting like Kamigawa. And if Zendikar has a second shot at getting it right and recreating the original Adventure World vibe before ROE independent of Edlrazi, Kamigawa could easily fill the niche of Japan World with the plane, its geography and aesthetic being the foundation for a Japanese world. Eldrazi left Zendikar, the Kami War is over. Have development cost cards more aggressively, return popular aspects of the world (Moonfolk, Ninjas, Samurai, etc) and supplement with Japan World tropes. The physical plane is MTG's take on Japan. It's just a matter of having the right focus, the right aesthetic and good mechanics.
Because I have a BA in history, by way of Roman studies, and sometimes teach world history to 7th graders? The allusions are rather obvious, especially when taken together. You're right, just about any individual trope could fit on any plane, but I don't think that's ever been advocated. And, frankly, I think you're looking at the guilds through the wrong lens; the Orzhov, for example, aren't just a bank - they're a Byzantine representation of the early church.
I think the danger of sophistry runs high here.
What's the value of such an accusation if you're not going to substantiate it with evidence?
Quote from Marl Karx »
If they make a Roman set its going to center around EMPIRE in some way obviously.
Obviously. Care to remind me what that looks like?
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I don't understand question 2. Considering the way wizards works, there would have to be a Caesar and the Legion(s). And architecture (probably w/ acqueducts), some allusion to roads (a la Appian Way). Unclear how they would handle slaves and revolts but certainly a Spartacus character and gladiators. Something with Hannibal and elephants because the real historical timeline of the Second Punic War is not going to deter them. Romulus and Remus clearly.
Just think of the major, overdone tropes -- presumably including some kind of pantheon. A fair few of the Olympians wouldn't even necessarily be rehashes of the Theros Gods. Doubtful on someone like Aeneas but I would expect them to work in some kind of Triumvirate. Don't know how they would insert other emperors like Nero but assuming they're time-hopping there's probably barbarians (Vandals and Visigoths) too
Ravnica already has the Roman civil engineering achievements through the Izzet guild, the legions in Boros, and the barbarians in Gruul. The Roman pantheon wasn't a stand alone analogue of the Greek gods, they were literally one and the same, just as they subsumed and assimilated many other cultures (Jupiter = Zeus Pater, 'Zeus the Father'). If Wizards wanted to do a deeply spiritual take they could look at the household deities worshiped by common citizens, or the mystery cults practice by the broader civilization (Eluisinian, Isis, Mythraic, etc), though I suppose those are already partially covered by some of the other guilds as well, albeit more abstractly. That leaves what, the emperors (totaling about ~70 in number) and the conquest of the rest of the western world as we know it as the only fresh tropes? Even then, I'm not swayed by the latter considering that other planes already resemble some of the Roman provinces *cough*Amonkhet*cough*. We're getting into narrower and narrower territory for a wholly Roman plane here.
Maybe? Truth be told, I cannot really say much on this matter as I am not affected by past slavery, but I'd assume that you could make slavery on a rome-inspired world different enough from the real life context to not feel poor in taste. Make a large part of the slavery be about indentured servitude rather than capturing people and if you do have prisoners of war slaves, make them barbarians from the north, which would look european, which not only feels natural given the source material but also avoids bad optics, given current events.
I'd be interested to hear about how you're not affected by slavery, but maybe privately. I can only take this to mean you're not American; no judgment either way.
Sadly, indentured servitude isn't far enough afield given the current political climate, as I've heard too many people try to compare late 19th / early 20th century treatment of Irish immigrants (see: white people) as being as bad or worse than that of African Americans.
Quote from Flisch »
Which is really not relevant here. We're not talking historical accuracy. We're talking tropes.
I'm not overly fond of appeals to authority, but you said you couldn't understand how someone can say the two setting are similar. For one, as someone educated on the subject, I'm saying they're similar because they are. For two, as a middle school teacher, I also have no problem breaking down complex ideas into more digestible, easily recognizable bits - and that's exactly what the tropes are.
Quote from Flisch »
I never claimed the orzhov were only a bank...
You didn't, but... leaving out the other pertinent details is a convenient, if misleading way of making your point. The narrative that "guilds =/= Rome" only works if a) you choose to isolate them instead of taking them together, and b) you focus only on the few details which don't actually resemble Rome, no matter how compelling or substantial other details might be.
Quote from Flisch »
They are a bank first and foremost and the religion is just a farce, a mask, both thematically and aesthetically. Everything about their design, including the masked thrulls is about hiding their true identity from the public.
That is arguably the nature of some religions, and in many ways / certain points in time the exact function of the Christian church. If they weren't being deliberately overt about it, I'd bet dollars to donuts WotC were at least making a thinly veiled attempt at parody.
Quote from Flisch »
I am also not sure I'd call them a representation of the early church. The orzhov are not a state religion. In fact they are rivaled by the selesnians for being the major religion on Ravnica. Even so I'd doubt that an ancient rome plane would focus on the church part, because I'd wager a guess that for most people "ancient rome" is understood as the pre christian era.
Christianity didn't become the state religion until 325 AD, though it obviously existed well before then (as early as 33 AD, in fact). Rome is considered to have fallen, officially, in 476. You're right to point out that my observations are a conflation of Roman tropes across disparate time periods, but that doesn't make them any less valid. I will add here, since you brought it up, that the mystery cults practiced by the Romans stretching back to the dawn of the empire were predominantly agrarian in nature, which draws yet another direct parallel with the Selesnya.
Quote from Flisch »
I feel like you're doing here what you advised against at the start of this quote: Going over the tropes too broadly. Yes, Ravnica (Rakdos) has gladiatorial combat, but not exclusively and it's such a minor part as to be almost nonexistent. Gladiatorial combat is not a central part of Ravnica.
...
Also something I wanted to mention: The Rakdos are not about gladiatorial combat. They do have that, but that's by far not "the thing" they do. It's just one of many things. The Rakdos are closer to a (modern) circus (with lethal tendencies) than a colisseum. Saying that the Rakdos are about arena fights is as weird as saying modern circuses are about horses. Like, no, horses are part of it, but they're not "the thing" by any stretch of the imagination.
Neither is elitism, nor bureaucracy or political tugs of war. Yes, they are part of Ravnica, but only because they naturally fit into the core of it: Ravnica is the metropolis world, a fantasy take on the modern metropolis.
Again, you're separating the part from the whole.
Quote from Flisch »
There is no "outside" Ravnica (unless you call places like the rubblebelt the outside... which would technically be correct but also kinda weird to put it like that).
I mean, what if I do? That's kind of where I get the barbarian vibe from.
Quote from Flisch »
Ravnica is just Ravnica. And everything that exists inside it exists because it naturally fits, not because the city plane was built around these concepts.
Wizards has never indicated that they took their inspiration for Ravnica from Rome, and that may very well be true. Regardless of what influenced their creative decisions then, the form that Ravnica has since taken on would make building a plane around Roman tropes now somewhat difficult. That's my ultimate point.
If they do Wild West they have to do guns. It's a defining trope of the genre. Obviously it would be equipment and red spells. Steampunk depiction would give firearms a fantasy feel, think Kaladesh. Vehicles could show up for Stagecoaches etc. again with a Steampunk slant. Think mechanical steeds, or a giant mechanical spider like Wild Wild West. Ox creature type had to be printed on Animal Sanctuary for a reason, as well as Snake. Wolves and Bears fit right in and they are common Magic creatures. Got to expand on the horse creature type as well. Maybe creature vehicles that always count as creatures but also have the vehicle rule, granting a bonus when it's used as a vehicle. It's not that hard to depict Native Americans. They did fine with Mayans in Ixalan and characters like Saheeli Rai.
One fairly interesting take would be Law Enforcement as it's another major trope of the genre. Closest they have done is the Azorius Guild.
Because I have a BA in history, by way of Roman studies, and sometimes teach world history to 7th graders? The allusions are rather obvious, especially when taken together. Y
I'm sorry but nothing of this really matters. Cultured people like you are not the main marketing focus. The only thing that matters is if the average murican thinks that Ravnica is a roman plane. And i can bet my fetchlands that the answer is no.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I'm too old and grumpy to bother with the 17 different partial quotes needed to pull all of the references on just this page out of the thread but...
Can we PLEASE not literally encourage our art and cultural content creators (such as they are) to cater to the dumbest person's impression of history/art/civilization/literature? That'd kinda exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to do.
But that's by and large what they're already doing. Perhaps not in so many words, but they create settings utilizing tropes as a shorthand so the settings can be more easily digestible and therefore more easily marketable. They've said before that when given the choice between tropes which may not be entirely accurate and following source material more closely, they tend to err on the side of broadest appeal. Throne of Eldraine was in part a response to Lorwyn-Shadowmoor, which they felt in hindsight tried to be too close to the source material and lost people.
It's capitalism, they're going to make things have as much mass market appeal as they can regardless of whether or not some players encourage it or not.
I'm too old and grumpy to bother with the 17 different partial quotes needed to pull all of the references on just this page out of the thread but...
Can we PLEASE not literally encourage our art and cultural content creators (such as they are) to cater to the dumbest person's impression of history/art/civilization/literature? That'd kinda exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to do.
These are consumer goods. It would be irresponsible for WotC to not try to appeal to the broadest possible audience. The aim should be to appeal to the broadest possible audience while exploring other cultures and civilizations in an honest way. Obviously that will have different definitions to different people, but that's just part of making consumer goods.
I'm too old and grumpy to bother with the 17 different partial quotes needed to pull all of the references on just this page out of the thread but...
Can we PLEASE not literally encourage our art and cultural content creators (such as they are) to cater to the dumbest person's impression of history/art/civilization/literature? That'd kinda exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to do.
But that's by and large what they're already doing. Perhaps not in so many words, but they create settings utilizing tropes as a shorthand so the settings can be more easily digestible and therefore more easily marketable. They've said before that when given the choice between tropes which may not be entirely accurate and following source material more closely, they tend to err on the side of broadest appeal. Throne of Eldraine was in part a response to Lorwyn-Shadowmoor, which they felt in hindsight tried to be too close to the source material and lost people.
It's capitalism, they're going to make things have as much mass market appeal as they can regardless of whether or not some players encourage it or not.
I think Eldraine might be a good example of what they could do, given that it's 120% Storybook Land and maybe 9.3% Arthurian legend. But a whole plane / set / block without the city of Rome itself?
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✊🏿 Justice for George Floyd ✊🏿
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Guilds/Allegiance/War don’t count?
I'll answer this as soon as I'm able, hopefully tomorrow. To address a subsequent post of yours, I'm not sure slavery (in any context) would be appropriate right now, given the current political climate.
Because I have a BA in history, by way of Roman studies, and sometimes teach world history to 7th graders? The allusions are rather obvious, especially when taken together. You're right, just about any individual trope could fit on any plane, but I don't think that's ever been advocated. And, frankly, I think you're looking at the guilds through the wrong lens; the Orzhov, for example, aren't just a bank - they're a Byzantine representation of the early church.
Rome is... complicated. If we define it too narrowly, we're doing a great disservice to a civilization that spanned the known western world for over half a millennium. If we define it too broadly, we run the risk of making almost any plane comparable (or relevant) by some metric. For most of its existence, I think it's fair to observe that the city very much was Rome, especially for the elites whose republican prerogatives hinged on full citizenship. That's where comparisons to Ravnica ultimately tie in, whatever your take on the individual guilds might be. While I can see some form of gladiatorial combat perhaps being foundational to another plane entirely (such as Kylem, as you just pointed out), I think it also bears mentioning that the Rakdos already epitomize the gratuitous spectacle and blood sport that Romans were so very fond of.
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Good point. Not sure how I didn't remember it, considering the strength of the cards and what the story actually meant, but I guess I care about that much less than I thought.
I try and keep up with the story fairly well, but the ending of Bolas I only know as Dack died, Gideon died, Chandra and Nissa may or may not be lesbians, and Bolas lost. That's it.
I think the danger of sophistry runs high here. If they make a Roman set its going to center around EMPIRE in some way obviously.
What's the value of such an accusation if you're not going to substantiate it with evidence?
Obviously. Care to remind me what that looks like?
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that would probably be the showcase art cards if we went back to Kamigawa
if we do go back i hope they still keep the spirit tribal stuff and finally give us a 5-color spirit tribal legend (clearly its not happening in Commander legends since were only going up to 3 colors in that)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I personally loved the kamigawa setting and it's not the plane's fault that the cards sucked so bad. Hard pass on innistrad 3 please, for at least like ten years
Maybe? Truth be told, I cannot really say much on this matter as I am not affected by past slavery, but I'd assume that you could make slavery on a rome-inspired world different enough from the real life context to not feel poor in taste. Make a large part of the slavery be about indentured servitude rather than capturing people and if you do have prisoners of war slaves, make them barbarians from the north, which would look european, which not only feels natural given the source material but also avoids bad optics, given current events.
Which is really not relevant here. We're not talking historical accuracy. We're talking tropes.
I never claimed the orzhov were only a bank, but that is their core. They are a bank first and foremost and the religion is just a farce, a mask, both thematically and aesthetically. Everything about their design, including the masked thrulls is about hiding their true identity from the public.
I am also not sure I'd call them a representation of the early church. The orzhov are not a state religion. In fact they are rivaled by the selesnians for being the major religion on Ravnica. Even so I'd doubt that an ancient rome plane would focus on the church part, because I'd wager a guess that for most people "ancient rome" is understood as the pre christian era.
I mean, ancient egypt existed for far, far longer and they didn't even make Amonkhet "100%" ancient egypt, rather stuffing out the rest of the world with a "corrupted by great evil" trope. Picking a more narrow range of tropes is probably what creative is going to aim for anyway, to give the setting a more defined feel.
I feel like you're doing here what you advised against at the start of this quote: Going over the tropes too broadly. Yes, Ravnica (Rakdos) has gladiatorial combat, but not exclusively and it's such a minor part as to be almost nonexistent. Gladiatorial combat is not a central part of Ravnica. Neither is elitism, nor bureaucracy or political tugs of war. Yes, they are part of Ravnica, but only because they naturally fit into the core of it: Ravnica is the metropolis world, a fantasy take on the modern metropolis. It's not the capital of a larger empire. There is no "outside" Ravnica (unless you call places like the rubblebelt the outside... which would technically be correct but also kinda weird to put it like that). Ravnica is just Ravnica. And everything that exists inside it exists because it naturally fits, not because the city plane was built around these concepts.*
Contrast this with a roman plane: The major city would also be something you could call a fantasy metropolis, but its significance inside the setting, its interaction with and contextual placement inside the world will be entirely different.
Also something I wanted to mention: The Rakdos are not about gladiatorial combat. They do have that, but that's by far not "the thing" they do. It's just one of many things. The Rakdos are closer to a (modern) circus (with lethal tendencies) than a colisseum. Saying that the Rakdos are about arena fights is as weird as saying modern circuses are about horses. Like, no, horses are part of it, but they're not "the thing" by any stretch of the imagination.
*Disclaimer: Ravnica -the card set/block- was not built around being a city, but around the ten two-colour combinations. Making them into ten guilds set in a large city just seemed like the natural thing to do I suppose. Nevertheless, the city tropes came after deciding to make it into a city plane, not before.
Ittoku and Shishizaru are two of my favorite magic artists.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I don't understand question 2. Considering the way wizards works, there would have to be a Caesar and the Legion(s). And architecture (probably w/ acqueducts), some allusion to roads (a la Appian Way). Unclear how they would handle slaves and revolts but certainly a Spartacus character and gladiators. Something with Hannibal and elephants because the real historical timeline of the Second Punic War is not going to deter them. Romulus and Remus clearly.
Just think of the major, overdone tropes -- presumably including some kind of pantheon. A fair few of the Olympians wouldn't even necessarily be rehashes of the Theros Gods. Doubtful on someone like Aeneas but I would expect them to work in some kind of Triumvirate. Don't know how they would insert other emperors like Nero but assuming they're time-hopping there's probably barbarians (Vandals and Visigoths) too
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This might simultaneously be both the sneakiest/funniest thing MaRo could ever do. Ever.
Great idea honestly.
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I'd be interested to hear about how you're not affected by slavery, but maybe privately. I can only take this to mean you're not American; no judgment either way.
Sadly, indentured servitude isn't far enough afield given the current political climate, as I've heard too many people try to compare late 19th / early 20th century treatment of Irish immigrants (see: white people) as being as bad or worse than that of African Americans.
I'm not overly fond of appeals to authority, but you said you couldn't understand how someone can say the two setting are similar. For one, as someone educated on the subject, I'm saying they're similar because they are. For two, as a middle school teacher, I also have no problem breaking down complex ideas into more digestible, easily recognizable bits - and that's exactly what the tropes are.
You didn't, but... leaving out the other pertinent details is a convenient, if misleading way of making your point. The narrative that "guilds =/= Rome" only works if a) you choose to isolate them instead of taking them together, and b) you focus only on the few details which don't actually resemble Rome, no matter how compelling or substantial other details might be.
That is arguably the nature of some religions, and in many ways / certain points in time the exact function of the Christian church. If they weren't being deliberately overt about it, I'd bet dollars to donuts WotC were at least making a thinly veiled attempt at parody.
Christianity didn't become the state religion until 325 AD, though it obviously existed well before then (as early as 33 AD, in fact). Rome is considered to have fallen, officially, in 476. You're right to point out that my observations are a conflation of Roman tropes across disparate time periods, but that doesn't make them any less valid. I will add here, since you brought it up, that the mystery cults practiced by the Romans stretching back to the dawn of the empire were predominantly agrarian in nature, which draws yet another direct parallel with the Selesnya.
Well, I did specifically say 'gratuitous spectacle and blood sport.' That's as much a reflection on the people attending such events as it is the people participating in them. For what it's worth, Rakdos Bloodsport was the actual name of a theme deck from Dissension.
Again, you're separating the part from the whole.
I mean, what if I do? That's kind of where I get the barbarian vibe from.
Wizards has never indicated that they took their inspiration for Ravnica from Rome, and that may very well be true. Regardless of what influenced their creative decisions then, the form that Ravnica has since taken on would make building a plane around Roman tropes now somewhat difficult. That's my ultimate point.
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One fairly interesting take would be Law Enforcement as it's another major trope of the genre. Closest they have done is the Azorius Guild.
I'm sorry but nothing of this really matters. Cultured people like you are not the main marketing focus. The only thing that matters is if the average murican thinks that Ravnica is a roman plane. And i can bet my fetchlands that the answer is no.
But that's by and large what they're already doing. Perhaps not in so many words, but they create settings utilizing tropes as a shorthand so the settings can be more easily digestible and therefore more easily marketable. They've said before that when given the choice between tropes which may not be entirely accurate and following source material more closely, they tend to err on the side of broadest appeal. Throne of Eldraine was in part a response to Lorwyn-Shadowmoor, which they felt in hindsight tried to be too close to the source material and lost people.
It's capitalism, they're going to make things have as much mass market appeal as they can regardless of whether or not some players encourage it or not.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
These are consumer goods. It would be irresponsible for WotC to not try to appeal to the broadest possible audience. The aim should be to appeal to the broadest possible audience while exploring other cultures and civilizations in an honest way. Obviously that will have different definitions to different people, but that's just part of making consumer goods.
I think Eldraine might be a good example of what they could do, given that it's 120% Storybook Land and maybe 9.3% Arthurian legend. But a whole plane / set / block without the city of Rome itself?
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