I totally understand and support Mark's decision of not talking about the balance issues as it's not his area. But has ANYONE addressed that issue in a more direct way? It's not his job to do it so, but it should be someone's job, shouldn't it?
he is talking about what people criticized most... so apparently no one criticized the price increase and the spam of products? why is he just focusing on the main sets ?
am i living in a bubble ?
he is talking about what people criticized most... so apparently no one criticized the price increase and the spam of products? why is he just focusing on the main sets ?
am i living in a bubble ?
He talked jumpstart
and double masters came out after all of those so the column was made before double masters
he is talking about what people criticized most... so apparently no one criticized the price increase and the spam of products? why is he just focusing on the main sets ?
am i living in a bubble ?
He talks about what he knows, which is always the 4 main sets every year. He did talk about Jumpstart which was interesting. He rarely works on supplemental sets and there is not much to talk about when they are mostly reprints.
I think that Paul Cheon's team probably got too aggressive this year. they pushed cards way too much. It was a new team so I guess they need to be reigned in a bit. Hopefully the balance issues will start going down with the rotation.
I liked what Mark said about Companion - it was a bad idea for Set Design to design this mechanic. It was too hard to balance. They should have realized this however and removed it from the set.
he is talking about what people criticized most... so apparently no one criticized the price increase and the spam of products? why is he just focusing on the main sets ?
am i living in a bubble ?
He often doesn't talk about supplemental products like the masters sets because he has nothing to do with them and him criticizing the work of his colleges would have unhelpful ramifications. Price increases are also under this umbrella of "not his job" so he doesn't cover them. While he likens it to the State of the Nation it would be like a State of the Interior as it only covers one specific aspect of the nation as a whole. If you expected the head designer to go on a rant about development and marketing then you set yourself up for disappointment.
he is talking about what people criticized most... so apparently no one criticized the price increase and the spam of products? why is he just focusing on the main sets ?
am i living in a bubble ?
He often doesn't talk about supplemental products like the masters sets because he has nothing to do with them and him criticizing the work of his colleges would have unhelpful ramifications. Price increases are also under this umbrella of "not his job" so he doesn't cover them. While he likens it to the State of the Nation it would be like a State of the Interior as it only covers one specific aspect of the nation as a whole. If you expected the head designer to go on a rant about development and marketing then you set yourself up for disappointment.
You make it sound like echo chambers and confirmation bias are bad things.
he is talking about what people criticized most... so apparently no one criticized the price increase and the spam of products? why is he just focusing on the main sets ?
am i living in a bubble ?
He often doesn't talk about supplemental products like the masters sets because he has nothing to do with them and him criticizing the work of his colleges would have unhelpful ramifications. Price increases are also under this umbrella of "not his job" so he doesn't cover them. While he likens it to the State of the Nation it would be like a State of the Interior as it only covers one specific aspect of the nation as a whole. If you expected the head designer to go on a rant about development and marketing then you set yourself up for disappointment.
You make it sound like echo chambers and confirmation bias are bad things.
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#DefundThePolice
What are you talking about? What echo chamber? What confirmation bias? Critical self-reflection is neither of those.
You make it sound like echo chambers and confirmation bias are bad things.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
What are you talking about? What echo chamber? What confirmation bias? Critical self-reflection is neither of those.
I'm talking about the inevitable consequence(s) of meeting player expectations with 'the head designer going on a rant about development and marketing.'
this article comes tantalizingly close to understanding the massive, massive issues facing this game, but skirts past them with a self-congratulatory wink at how excellent everything is. And while I do think Mark Rosewater is a ponce, it doesn't matter whether you like him or not, it matters that you recognize that under his management this game has seen some of the absolute worst mistakes in card design, product glut, and metagame stagnation. You can think that a particular area of botched whatever is not his fault, and it doesn't matter. He is the prominent audience-facing member of staff, he takes credit for a lot of decisions (usually successful ones), and players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.
In case you haven't noticed because you're buried up to your eyes in Secret Lair drops and titan excrement... it is appropriate.
EDIT: If you read this article and weren't at least a little incensed, read this line again.
"For example, I think both mutate and companions are things we should have done, but in hindsight, it shouldn't have been in the same set."
this article comes tantalizingly close to understanding the massive, massive issues facing this game, but skirts past them with a self-congratulatory wink at how excellent everything is. And while I do think Mark Rosewater is a ponce, it doesn't matter whether you like him or not, it matters that you recognize that under his management this game has seen some of the absolute worst mistakes in card design, product glut, and metagame stagnation. You can think that a particular area of botched whatever is not his fault, and it doesn't matter. He is the prominent audience-facing member of staff, he takes credit for a lot of decisions (usually successful ones), and players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.
In case you haven't noticed because you're buried up to your eyes in Secret Lair drops and titan excrement... it is appropriate.
EDIT: If you read this article and weren't at least a little incensed, read this line again.
"For example, I think both mutate and companions are things we should have done, but in hindsight, it shouldn't have been in the same set."
I'm not incensed, but I'd like to hear why I should be.
The rest of the Titans were missing.
Not only were the players unhappy about some of the things that didn't come back, they were also unhappy that something new didn't have everything. The set introduced two Titans (Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath) that were in enemy colors. That, and the flavor text, implied that there were at least three more. Where were they?
And while I do think Mark Rosewater is a ponce, it doesn't matter whether you like him or not, it matters that you recognize that under his management this game has seen some of the absolute worst mistakes in card design, product glut, and metagame stagnation. You can think that a particular area of botched whatever is not his fault, and it doesn't matter. He is the prominent audience-facing member of staff, he takes credit for a lot of decisions (usually successful ones), and players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.
The cashier at Arby's is the most prominent audience-facing member of their staff and thus they should be held accountable for the pricing and quality of items!
I'm glad we could step back and realize this profound truth. That because someone in a company interacts with the public all of the company's decisions must be considered their personal decisions and they must take responsibility for them. I assumed that a person should only be held responsible for things they did or held influence over not anything that I wanted to attribute to them. This means I can start blaming Neil Degrasse Tyson for any science-related problems such as global warming, pluto not being a planet, and our general lack of flying personal vehicles? He is the most audience-facing member of science so it sticks right?
I would even go so far as to say heaping all of your problems and expectations on one person - who is decidedly not responsible for the goings on of an entire company - is exactly the wrong way to affect change, and counterproductive in the extreme. MaRo represents a virtual bottleneck between everyone he collaborates with at WotC and all of the consumers wailing at him constantly, through which the effective flow of communication is patently diminished.
it matters that you recognize that under his management this game has seen some of the absolute worst mistakes in card design, product glut, and metagame stagnation. You can think that a particular area of botched whatever is not his fault, and it doesn't matter. He is the prominent audience-facing member of staff, he takes credit for a lot of decisions (usually successful ones), and players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.
I don't disagree that we've had a lot of issues during his, what... 16 years as head designer. But you have to recognize that under his management, we've also seen some great cards and phenomenal growth as a game. It is dishonest and unfair to only look at flaws and blame them on one person. Are you saying everything is terrible and are unwilling to concede that he has helped the game, as well? And if so, why do you even play if the past 16 years have been all doom and gloom?
The Arby's cashier example says better than I could why you're wrong about blaming him for things outside of his control just for being customer-facing. Considering how rude and unforgiving players can be, I'm frankly not surprised that those responsible don't want to be more "prominent audience-facing" and put their heads on the chopping block of exaggeration and vitriol.
In case you haven't noticed because you're buried up to your eyes in Secret Lair drops and titan excrement... it is appropriate.
Oh, I've noticed. Trust me, I've noticed. Money grab after money grab, overpriced product, limited quantity product, faulty low-quality product (cardboard-flavored Pringles), decisions made to hunt whales at the expense of average players, "this product isn't for everyone" attitudes, lack of meaningful reprints, confusing glut of different types of boosters, so many alternate versions of cards that no one can keep them straight, etc.
And yet, I can't agree with your assessment. You said
players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.
Great, I agree - when appropriate. But then you go on to blame the head card designer for marketing decisions, play design failures, "product glut" which is likely determined by both marketing and product teams, etc.
You specifically bring up Secret Lair drops, a product of pure reprints that never even has to involve the design team because the cards were designed years ago - how is it appropriate to blame Rosewater for a product he has no say in? Sure, they're overpriced Pringles that often don't get shipped and sometimes feature butt-ugly artwork, but again, they don't involve the design team.
EDIT: If you read this article and weren't at least a little incensed, read this line again.
"For example, I think both mutate and companions are things we should have done, but in hindsight, it shouldn't have been in the same set."
I did read that, and I tried to put it in context. He spoke about how two highly complex abilities over-taxed the play design team. I think he was saying that, had they been in separate sets, they would have done a better job discovering the issues. It's possible they still would have released the flaming bag of poop that was companion as is, but it's also possible they would have fixed it before release. This seems a reasonable assessment from what he said, if I try to read without bias or prejudice.
Now, personally, I think companion was a bad idea that was even more poorly executed, and I don't think it would have been good in any incarnation. But if I apply logic instead of emotion, I can see where he is coming from.
For all his faults, Mark Rosewater loves Magic, and I believe he wants the game to succeed and enjoys interfacing with the players. I may not agree with him on everything (for example, I think he's dead wrong about hybrid mana in Commander, and I prefer multiplayer, while he prefers duels), but I appreciate the effort he puts in, I appreciate his attempts at transparency and showing us glimpses from behind the scenes. And I absolutely admire his ability to not let the negativity get to him. I often joke that I hate people in general, but if I had as much negativity inappropriately thrown at me as he does, it would stop being a joke.
this article comes tantalizingly close to understanding the massive, massive issues facing this game, but skirts past them with a self-congratulatory wink at how excellent everything is. And while I do think Mark Rosewater is a ponce, it doesn't matter whether you like him or not, it matters that you recognize that under his management this game has seen some of the absolute worst mistakes in card design, product glut, and metagame stagnation.
You're aware that Mark has been head of design for quite a while. The game is 27 years. Mark has been head for 17 of them. That's most of Magic's lifespan. How long do you think the game has been in ditches?
You can think that a particular area of botched whatever is not his fault, and it doesn't matter. He is the prominent audience-facing member of staff, he takes credit for a lot of decisions (usually successful ones), and players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.
In case you haven't noticed because you're buried up to your eyes in Secret Lair drops and titan excrement... it is appropriate.
I mean, sure, it's appropriate for Mark to say something about some of the issues with the game outside his control in his role as a public spokesperson. That would be why he addressed the balance issues in his article despite it not really being his problem and even acknowledged how his work can make it more difficult for the people who are responsible for that.
And he has elsewhere repeatedly addressed complaints such as product overload and pricing. Whether or not his statements on those fronts are satisfactory, it is false to try to make it out like he's dodging any accountability when he isn't.
EDIT: If you read this article and weren't at least a little incensed, read this line again.
"For example, I think both mutate and companions are things we should have done, but in hindsight, it shouldn't have been in the same set."
Well, I largely agree with this statement. Companion at least might have worked if it had more space to devote to making it work. And Mutate is good as is and would have been even better if it wasn't partly eclipsed by Companion.
The rest of the Titans were missing.
Not only were the players unhappy about some of the things that didn't come back, they were also unhappy that something new didn't have everything. The set introduced two Titans (Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath) that were in enemy colors. That, and the flavor text, implied that there were at least three more. Where were they?
State of Magic R&D 2020, TL;DR.
Possibly he meant they were enemy fro. Each other due to the allied and enemy colored variance? To be honest if this is the biggest thing your worried about in his article then maybe you should just sign off now.
I hate to be the one to point this out. But if the game is growing and people are buying the products, then things are successful.
If they release a product and it doesn't sell, the it's unsuccessful.
They literally only make money by releasing what people want. (bad products make less money, go figure)
So anyone here complaining about any new products and the direction of the game clearly don't represent magic players as a whole.
From what I have learned in my 11 years of being here on MTGSal, most people complain. They will complain about everything. Magic has definitely grown substantially since I have started playing it, and I haven't agreed with everything they've done, I think they've been trying and that is what has mattered.
Jumpstart and M20 reprints were very well done, and Jumpstart itself is a great way to motivate new players. I hope they continue the trend.
Throne was awesome, love the flavor, art, and cards. Theros, not as exciting due to the lack of Bestow, and the story was lacking.
Ikoria... never liked Vivien, so she was a turn off, but I enjoyed most of the set, it has cards for many kinds of decks. Companions would've been fine if some their abilities weren't so broken. It's a balance issue, and they should've just banned the problematic companions instead of changing the whole mechanic itself; now people would be unlikely to play them again. It's silly to ruin a new feature when they could've play-test them further prior.
Besides. You only have the salesman's declaration that more is being sold...
Yes because salesmen always lie. They say every product is the best selling ever. They push obviously failing products as the greatest thing ever and keep making more of them even after they fail spectacularly. Oh wait, no that's not right at all. A salesman regularly deceives but rarely lies. They regularly admit that products are gone because they are unpopular. It doesn't actually hurt to admit something is unpopular because it only upsets the fans of that thing which were unpopular meaning it doesn't have many fans. Yes, we take the "Best thing ever" with a grain of salt but that doesn't' mean its obviously a lie and they are tanking hard.
Most importantly, the company is trying to make money. They have reason to believe that everything they are doing will make them more money. Obviously they aren't right 100% of the time but to assume they are doing things that a majority of people actively hate because they want more money is nonsensical.
I hate to be the one to point this out. But if the game is growing and people are buying the products, then things are successful.
If they release a product and it doesn't sell, the it's unsuccessful.
They literally only make money by releasing what people want. (bad products make less money, go figure)
So anyone here complaining about any new products and the direction of the game clearly don't represent magic players as a whole.
The danger here, is that American-style food sells very very well, for example. McDonalds and High-fructrose corn syrup are extremely successful.
They make you less healthy when you eat them.
Sure, but why assign blame to the companies that produce them? It ultimately doesn't matter how many different types of products McDonald's sells, or how many different people they sell them to, as long as the product is consumed with moderation by each individual patron. If someone raised their clenched fist to the sky and shouted 'Damn you McDonald's for making me eat so many of your terrible burgers!', you'd probably have a good laugh.
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#DefundThePolice
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It’s his yearly ritual to talk about pros and cons of each set and stuff that happen through the year
am i living in a bubble ?
He talked jumpstart
and double masters came out after all of those so the column was made before double masters
He talks about what he knows, which is always the 4 main sets every year. He did talk about Jumpstart which was interesting. He rarely works on supplemental sets and there is not much to talk about when they are mostly reprints.
I think that Paul Cheon's team probably got too aggressive this year. they pushed cards way too much. It was a new team so I guess they need to be reigned in a bit. Hopefully the balance issues will start going down with the rotation.
I liked what Mark said about Companion - it was a bad idea for Set Design to design this mechanic. It was too hard to balance. They should have realized this however and removed it from the set.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
You make it sound like echo chambers and confirmation bias are bad things.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
I'm talking about the inevitable consequence(s) of meeting player expectations with 'the head designer going on a rant about development and marketing.'
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
In case you haven't noticed because you're buried up to your eyes in Secret Lair drops and titan excrement... it is appropriate.
EDIT: If you read this article and weren't at least a little incensed, read this line again.
I'm not incensed, but I'd like to hear why I should be.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
I'm glad we could step back and realize this profound truth. That because someone in a company interacts with the public all of the company's decisions must be considered their personal decisions and they must take responsibility for them. I assumed that a person should only be held responsible for things they did or held influence over not anything that I wanted to attribute to them. This means I can start blaming Neil Degrasse Tyson for any science-related problems such as global warming, pluto not being a planet, and our general lack of flying personal vehicles? He is the most audience-facing member of science so it sticks right?
So... don't shoot the messenger.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
The Arby's cashier example says better than I could why you're wrong about blaming him for things outside of his control just for being customer-facing. Considering how rude and unforgiving players can be, I'm frankly not surprised that those responsible don't want to be more "prominent audience-facing" and put their heads on the chopping block of exaggeration and vitriol.
Oh, I've noticed. Trust me, I've noticed. Money grab after money grab, overpriced product, limited quantity product, faulty low-quality product (cardboard-flavored Pringles), decisions made to hunt whales at the expense of average players, "this product isn't for everyone" attitudes, lack of meaningful reprints, confusing glut of different types of boosters, so many alternate versions of cards that no one can keep them straight, etc.
And yet, I can't agree with your assessment. You said Great, I agree - when appropriate. But then you go on to blame the head card designer for marketing decisions, play design failures, "product glut" which is likely determined by both marketing and product teams, etc.
You specifically bring up Secret Lair drops, a product of pure reprints that never even has to involve the design team because the cards were designed years ago - how is it appropriate to blame Rosewater for a product he has no say in? Sure, they're overpriced Pringles that often don't get shipped and sometimes feature butt-ugly artwork, but again, they don't involve the design team. I did read that, and I tried to put it in context. He spoke about how two highly complex abilities over-taxed the play design team. I think he was saying that, had they been in separate sets, they would have done a better job discovering the issues. It's possible they still would have released the flaming bag of poop that was companion as is, but it's also possible they would have fixed it before release. This seems a reasonable assessment from what he said, if I try to read without bias or prejudice.
Now, personally, I think companion was a bad idea that was even more poorly executed, and I don't think it would have been good in any incarnation. But if I apply logic instead of emotion, I can see where he is coming from.
For all his faults, Mark Rosewater loves Magic, and I believe he wants the game to succeed and enjoys interfacing with the players. I may not agree with him on everything (for example, I think he's dead wrong about hybrid mana in Commander, and I prefer multiplayer, while he prefers duels), but I appreciate the effort he puts in, I appreciate his attempts at transparency and showing us glimpses from behind the scenes. And I absolutely admire his ability to not let the negativity get to him. I often joke that I hate people in general, but if I had as much negativity inappropriately thrown at me as he does, it would stop being a joke.
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You're aware that Mark has been head of design for quite a while. The game is 27 years. Mark has been head for 17 of them. That's most of Magic's lifespan. How long do you think the game has been in ditches?
I mean, sure, it's appropriate for Mark to say something about some of the issues with the game outside his control in his role as a public spokesperson. That would be why he addressed the balance issues in his article despite it not really being his problem and even acknowledged how his work can make it more difficult for the people who are responsible for that.
And he has elsewhere repeatedly addressed complaints such as product overload and pricing. Whether or not his statements on those fronts are satisfactory, it is false to try to make it out like he's dodging any accountability when he isn't.
Well, I largely agree with this statement. Companion at least might have worked if it had more space to devote to making it work. And Mutate is good as is and would have been even better if it wasn't partly eclipsed by Companion.
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If they release a product and it doesn't sell, the it's unsuccessful.
They literally only make money by releasing what people want. (bad products make less money, go figure)
So anyone here complaining about any new products and the direction of the game clearly don't represent magic players as a whole.
Possibly he meant they were enemy fro. Each other due to the allied and enemy colored variance? To be honest if this is the biggest thing your worried about in his article then maybe you should just sign off now.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
From what I have learned in my 11 years of being here on MTGSal, most people complain. They will complain about everything. Magic has definitely grown substantially since I have started playing it, and I haven't agreed with everything they've done, I think they've been trying and that is what has mattered.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Throne was awesome, love the flavor, art, and cards. Theros, not as exciting due to the lack of Bestow, and the story was lacking.
Ikoria... never liked Vivien, so she was a turn off, but I enjoyed most of the set, it has cards for many kinds of decks. Companions would've been fine if some their abilities weren't so broken. It's a balance issue, and they should've just banned the problematic companions instead of changing the whole mechanic itself; now people would be unlikely to play them again. It's silly to ruin a new feature when they could've play-test them further prior.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Most importantly, the company is trying to make money. They have reason to believe that everything they are doing will make them more money. Obviously they aren't right 100% of the time but to assume they are doing things that a majority of people actively hate because they want more money is nonsensical.
Sure, but why assign blame to the companies that produce them? It ultimately doesn't matter how many different types of products McDonald's sells, or how many different people they sell them to, as long as the product is consumed with moderation by each individual patron. If someone raised their clenched fist to the sky and shouted 'Damn you McDonald's for making me eat so many of your terrible burgers!', you'd probably have a good laugh.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice