Is it too much to ask for other colors (especially white) to get this sort of thing? Blue already has cryptic, and Archmage's Charm, and Mystic Confluence.
White deserves a "exile an artifact, exile an enchantment, exile an attacking creature, gain 5 life, return a card with cmc 3 or less from your graveyard to play" version of this.
At a guess, this type of card would be harder to do for other colors because there's less timing restricted abilties to put on it. "Counter Target Spell" and "Counter Target activated or triggered ability" are rarely going to be able to be used together, but also aren't mutually exclusive. It's hard to come up with a pair like that for other colors, and that plays into the power level of the card in a big way.
Is it too much to ask for other colors (especially white) to get this sort of thing? Blue already has cryptic, and Archmage's Charm, and Mystic Confluence.
White deserves a "exile an artifact, exile an enchantment, exile an attacking creature, gain 5 life, return a card with cmc 3 or less from your graveyard to play" version of this.
At a guess, this type of card would be harder to do for other colors because there's less timing restricted abilties to put on it. "Counter Target Spell" and "Counter Target activated or triggered ability" are rarely going to be able to be used together, but also aren't mutually exclusive. It's hard to come up with a pair like that for other colors, and that plays into the power level of the card in a big way.
But... it's ok if the other colors get a less timing-restricted / more powerful version of this card. I know it's a controversial stance but blue doesn't always have to have the best card in a cycle. For the example I gave, you could replace the "return a permanent cmc 3 or less" with "return any permanent that went to the graveyard this turn" to make it more timing restricted.
I do think this card has a place in EDH, but that depends on you wanting to copy one of your own creatures often enough. Copy your own creature plus draw a card at instant speed is a good enough "fail case" for the card, worth leaving the 6 mana up assuming you have a thing worth copying, and you'll almost always get a beneficial bounce out of it too. This makes you not reliant at all on the time restricted modes, but turns those modes into a huge blowout when they come up.
At 6 mana it's too expensive to see any real competitive play, but holy smokes my johnny senses are tingling. When you can get the value out of this it's awesome.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Anytime a card offers THIS many options, it's entirely worth considering. This card is NEVER dead. I think you better prepare yourself to see this thing...A LOT. Take note that the bouncing portion of the card does not state "opponent"...
Can i order the trigger as i want? Can i copy my creature first and the return it to my hand?
This isn’t the rulings thread so I don’t want to get in trouble for responding, but no. All targets must be selected when you put the spell on the stack, so your token won’t be on the field. And the abilities will happen in the order printed on the card.
Is it too much to ask for other colors (especially white) to get this sort of thing? Blue already has cryptic, and Archmage's Charm, and Mystic Confluence.
White deserves a "exile an artifact, exile an enchantment, exile an attacking creature, gain 5 life, return a card with cmc 3 or less from your graveyard to play" version of this.
I'm not sure why everyone is so focused on the two counter options, I'm all about the *****ton of advantage gained from creating a surprise blocker (preferably with an etb ability of its own), bouncing the scariest attacker, and drawing a card. Getting a counter once in a while is nice, but I'm viewing this card from a very different angle.
Six mana is a lot to keep open, but I think the flexibility and card advantage is well worth it for casual EDH.
Why, seriously why? They already had cryptic command why does blue need ANOTHER freaking toolbox card like this? Even at 6cc this will be played especially in U/W control builds because three of the modes are pretty much assured to be used at once each time you use the thing and the fourth can help you end the game with your trump creature being copied. Least with cryptic you could only choose two modes.
It's 6 mana. No competitive deck wants a six-mana counterspell outside of Limited and Cube, no matter how many things are stapled on it. Sure, the ceiling is amazing, but both this and Cryptic Command have the same floor as Dismiss, and no one will play Dismiss for six mana.
Did you forget cryptic command is played in modern? Despite the cost.
Right but cryptic is 4 mana. They are saying that a counter + draw is not playable at 6 mana and since the other modes are less likely to be used they aren't worth that extra mana.
This IS modern playable. As a 4 off no, but lets say that U/W control is in the later stages of the match and can win next turn, and you have burned all your cryptic commands keeping them off balance. A pair or maybe but unlikely a trio of this can offput a lot of annoyance if timed right. Likely at this stage you can get 4 out of 5 of its lines unless your in a mirror match and even then you can stop man lands from activating for blocks i.e. celestial colonnade. Hitting 6 mana if your a control deck is doable, you want to reach the mid to late game. This card while yes a bit unwieldly can be used as cryptic 5 and 6 if it needs to stop a unfavorable play.
This card is very powerful and versatile. It’s certainly a welcome addition to Commander. It’s almost as if wizards wants me to rebuild my Azami deck. But I hated how broken that deck was
Is it too much to ask for other colors (especially white) to get this sort of thing? Blue already has cryptic, and Archmage's Charm, and Mystic Confluence.
White deserves a "exile an artifact, exile an enchantment, exile an attacking creature, gain 5 life, return a card with cmc 3 or less from your graveyard to play" version of this.
At a guess, this type of card would be harder to do for other colors because there's less timing restricted abilties to put on it. "Counter Target Spell" and "Counter Target activated or triggered ability" are rarely going to be able to be used together, but also aren't mutually exclusive. It's hard to come up with a pair like that for other colors, and that plays into the power level of the card in a big way.
But... it's ok if the other colors get a less timing-restricted / more powerful version of this card. I know it's a controversial stance but blue doesn't always have to have the best card in a cycle. For the example I gave, you could replace the "return a permanent cmc 3 or less" with "return any permanent that went to the graveyard this turn" to make it more timing restricted.
I do think this card has a place in EDH, but that depends on you wanting to copy one of your own creatures often enough. Copy your own creature plus draw a card at instant speed is a good enough "fail case" for the card, worth leaving the 6 mana up assuming you have a thing worth copying, and you'll almost always get a beneficial bounce out of it too. This makes you not reliant at all on the time restricted modes, but turns those modes into a huge blowout when they come up.
While blue doesn't need to have the most powerful version, my point is that getting 5 relevant abilities on a card while having choosing one or more create a variety of options without having to make it cost so much mana it's unwieldy is... extremely rough for non-blue colors. Blue can get away with it more easily because they have those timing limited options that read powerfully, but don't always work together, while also not actively fighting each other. That's not to say it's impossible, and white might have the next best shot at it given that it can have timing restricted destruction/exile effects that depend on combat. But it's still hard to come up with a set of effects that can be costed low enough to be interesting, but also read well enough to get people excited.
Can i order the trigger as i want? Can i copy my creature first and the return it to my hand?
This isn’t the rulings thread so I don’t want to get in trouble for responding, but no. All targets must be selected when you put the spell on the stack, so your token won’t be on the field. And the abilities will happen in the order printed on the card.
I think he meant returning the same creature he was also copying. But that wouldn't work either, because you follow instructions from top to bottom.
I also like the fact that if you have an Eternal Witness or Archaeomancer on the field, you basically have a counterspell that recurs itself and draws you a card.
While blue doesn't need to have the most powerful version, my point is that getting 5 relevant abilities on a card while having choosing one or more create a variety of options without having to make it cost so much mana it's unwieldy is... extremely rough for non-blue colors. Blue can get away with it more easily because they have those timing limited options that read powerfully, but don't always work together, while also not actively fighting each other. That's not to say it's impossible, and white might have the next best shot at it given that it can have timing restricted destruction/exile effects that depend on combat. But it's still hard to come up with a set of effects that can be costed low enough to be interesting, but also read well enough to get people excited.
That's a fair point. I think the way you'd have to make it work would be to look at the more situational things the colors can do, even if they aren't necessarily timing restricted. So green could destroy flyers (strong but sometimes dead), red could deal damage to all nonflyers (strong but could hurt your own board state), black could require you to sacrifice a creature for one of its modes.
Seems more an illusion of choice card than a card with 31 options. As you will always bounce a nonland permanent and draw a card. Then you have the ability to Counterspell and/or Stifle. Then you basically have a clone effect on top. So if you have a creature and your opponent has a spell on the stack you just select all but the stifle effect for maximum value.
I'm confused. People are saying this is the 31 option card. I thought people were kidding about that - is this the 31 option card? If so, how?
5 different options, you can either choose them or not -> 2 to the power of 5 = 32 and -1 because you have to choose at least one, not choosing any options is not allowed, so 31 options.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the only Standard-playable 6 CMC counterspell since the days of Draining Whelk, anyone thinking this won't see play has never seen Temur Rec or Azorius Control pass the turn with 6-7 mana open. You're almost sure to get at least the bounce effect in addition to the guaranteed Dismiss you're getting. This should probably see play as a 1-of in any U-based Control build, to say nothing of how insanely useful it seems for Commander (Disclaimer, I don't really like Commander so I may be missing something here).
This should probably see play as a 1-of in any U-based Control build, to say nothing of how insanely useful it seems for Commander (Disclaimer, I don't really like Commander so I may be missing something here).
Commander, particularly casual and multiplayer Commander - is a slow enough format that six mana is not a major concern. Commander also appreciates flexibility as scenarios tend to be much more varied and unpredictable given the sheer number of decks and strategies supported by the format so a card that's relevant in a wider number of game states is very attractive. Plus, being able to do different things that can negatively or positively affect other players is a big resource for politicking a game.
I'm confused. People are saying this is the 31 option card. I thought people were kidding about that - is this the 31 option card? If so, how?
5 different options, you can either choose them or not -> 2 to the power of 5 = 32 and -1 because you have to choose at least one, not choosing any options is not allowed, so 31 options.
It's also easy to visualize in the form of color combinations, since they are both 5. 5 colors + 10 pairs + 10 arcs and wedges + 5 four color combinations + 1 of all five colors = 31.
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But... it's ok if the other colors get a less timing-restricted / more powerful version of this card. I know it's a controversial stance but blue doesn't always have to have the best card in a cycle. For the example I gave, you could replace the "return a permanent cmc 3 or less" with "return any permanent that went to the graveyard this turn" to make it more timing restricted.
I do think this card has a place in EDH, but that depends on you wanting to copy one of your own creatures often enough. Copy your own creature plus draw a card at instant speed is a good enough "fail case" for the card, worth leaving the 6 mana up assuming you have a thing worth copying, and you'll almost always get a beneficial bounce out of it too. This makes you not reliant at all on the time restricted modes, but turns those modes into a huge blowout when they come up.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Anytime a card offers THIS many options, it's entirely worth considering. This card is NEVER dead. I think you better prepare yourself to see this thing...A LOT. Take note that the bouncing portion of the card does not state "opponent"...
This isn’t the rulings thread so I don’t want to get in trouble for responding, but no. All targets must be selected when you put the spell on the stack, so your token won’t be on the field. And the abilities will happen in the order printed on the card.
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Six mana is a lot to keep open, but I think the flexibility and card advantage is well worth it for casual EDH.
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I think he meant returning the same creature he was also copying. But that wouldn't work either, because you follow instructions from top to bottom.
I also like the fact that if you have an Eternal Witness or Archaeomancer on the field, you basically have a counterspell that recurs itself and draws you a card.
That's a fair point. I think the way you'd have to make it work would be to look at the more situational things the colors can do, even if they aren't necessarily timing restricted. So green could destroy flyers (strong but sometimes dead), red could deal damage to all nonflyers (strong but could hurt your own board state), black could require you to sacrifice a creature for one of its modes.
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5 different options, you can either choose them or not -> 2 to the power of 5 = 32 and -1 because you have to choose at least one, not choosing any options is not allowed, so 31 options.
Commander, particularly casual and multiplayer Commander - is a slow enough format that six mana is not a major concern. Commander also appreciates flexibility as scenarios tend to be much more varied and unpredictable given the sheer number of decks and strategies supported by the format so a card that's relevant in a wider number of game states is very attractive. Plus, being able to do different things that can negatively or positively affect other players is a big resource for politicking a game.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
It's also easy to visualize in the form of color combinations, since they are both 5. 5 colors + 10 pairs + 10 arcs and wedges + 5 four color combinations + 1 of all five colors = 31.