Banning art is comparable to book burning, ironically an action taken by the Nazi's.
My great-grandparents and grandparents where Holocaust escapees and from the stories they told about when they had to flee Poland don't really see the connection between Nazi book burning and magic deciding to not feature their own cards that have problematic elements.
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Banning art is comparable to book burning, ironically an action taken by the Nazi's.
I guess the more you try to avoid the thing you hate, the more you become that very thing.
Oddly enough D&D and early Magic were criticized for Satanic imagery from outside sources, now it's the company censoring itself from within. Really strange.
Fascism and racism are not free speech, they're hate speech, and do not deserve all of the same rights as a book that contains gay people in it or something. There is a harm principle at play. Fighting fascism and racism is not and never will be the same as performing it, even if you cross some line. The stain of fascism and racism on world history and culture is unique.
Regardless, as others have pointed out, this is not even state censorship in the first place, but a voluntary private decision. So it's definitely not comparable.
It's because 'cleanse' is too evocative of ethnic 'cleansing', especially when that's also true of what the card does.
Black creatures do not equate black people though. By that logic, Virtue's Ruin destroy white creatures, does it mean white folks are innately more virtuous?
A generic word doesn't hold THAT much power. It'd be a lot different if the card is something like "Purging Savages" or has art depicting characters with African features.
While I agree with Invoke Prejudice's ban for obvious art reasons, and the Gypsies too, the other ones seem pretty hypocritical and pandering from WotC considering cards such as Torture and Murder are just fine.
It's because 'cleanse' is too evocative of ethnic 'cleansing', especially when that's also true of what the card does.
Black creatures do not equate black people though. By that logic, Virtue's Ruin destroy white creatures, does it mean white folks are innately more virtuous?
A generic word doesn't hold THAT much power. It'd be a lot different if the card is something like "Purging Savages" or has art depicting characters with African features.
The name 'Virtue's Ruin' does not evoke genocide. 'Cleanse' does, at least on a card that literally kills en mass. Virtue's Ruin evokes a fantasy villain killing all the good guys that oppose them. Cleanse is a bit murkier.
Yes, it could be worse. Yes, it's not that bad. Maybe it's not even bad enough. But eh? It's justifiable. You've got to draw the line somewhere.
Banning art is comparable to book burning, ironically an action taken by the Nazi's.
I guess the more you try to avoid the thing you hate, the more you become that very thing.
Oddly enough D&D and early Magic were criticized for Satanic imagery from outside sources, now it's the company censoring itself from within. Really strange.
I assume we are at the dawn of the big 21st century ethnic genocide. An anti-white one.
While I agree with Invoke Prejudice's ban for obvious art reasons, and the Gypsies too, the other ones seem pretty hypocritical and pandering from WotC considering cards such as Torture and Murder are just fine.
Use of racist imagery and language is not the same as depictions of violence. That's not hypocritical on WotC's part, it's a blatant equivocation on yours.
While I agree with Invoke Prejudice's ban for obvious art reasons, and the Gypsies too, the other ones seem pretty hypocritical and pandering from WotC considering cards such as Torture and Murder are just fine.
Use of racist imagery and language is not the same as depictions of violence. That's not hypocritical on WotC's part, it's a blatant equivocation on yours.
The current protests and social outcries going on all over the world are for both racism and violence, not just one or the other.
I love the internet for always bringing the receipts. I think it's a much bigger deal that WotC knew about the racist overtones and did nothing than what cards they identified as problematic now. We can quibble over which of these cards *really* deserves to go, but I think it's far more consequential that WotC was clearly aware of the issues and took no action in that time. It's only now, when the movement of the moment is unavoidable that they acted.
That certainly takes a bit of energy out of my appreciation earlier.
Keep in mind the original announcement mentions the art in particular as part of the problem. Note that they are not removing the cards - they are removing the art of the cards.
Why Crusade when Honor of the Pure? I just hope if its possible that they "reprint" some cards with different names and art.
Keeping in line with the art being part of the problem (though I'm sure the titles, and to some extent the abilities and feel of the cards), I'm going to say that Crusade has two strikes against it above Honor the Pure:
The name Crusade is evocative of a real historical event and genocidal war, and thus while a "Crusade" can be a general term (Cathars' Crusade), a card simply titled "Crusade" as a solitary proper noun brings additional potential connotations. Especially when joined with number 2 below:
The art features real life religious symbols - Most new sets (such as the Avacinian church, or Theros deities) now use newly created symbology as well. Aside from using and existing religious symbol, tied with the first point it absolutely solidifies the card as being tied to the historical event as well.
I believe forced march is a good candidate for removal as well. Notably to me it invokes the "Trail of Tears" - a forced march of Native Americans that resulted in a catastrophic amount of deaths.
Cleanse also seems an exaggerated reaction to me. "Destroy all black creatures." has in no way anything to do with violence against African-Americans or any other colored people... And I actually really looked at the artwork for the first time, noticed it's Phil Foglio and actually slightly amusing, as per his usual style (there seems to be a devil wearing jeans...).
Agree it's common sense that it wasn't about race it's a card color.
wait for some would say how about white and red? whats next?
environmentalist for cards that targeted green?
how about marine life?
animal abuse like peta?
feminist seeing pictures of angels being beaten in cards?
a "Crusader" in Standard right now. Maybe it's more the combination of the name and the unfortunate implications of "White creatures get +1/+1", but then again, when the concept of colors is a core component of your game, this is kind of unavoidable.
We had multiple arts of crusade they should had done it with the og art not the other cards.
there are even multiple meaning with crusade
noun
a medieval military expedition, one of a series made by Europeans to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries. verb
lead or take part in an energetic and organized campaign concerning a social, political, or religious issue. "he crusaded against gambling in the 1950s"
So it isn't a offensive terminology as it was for the rest of the reprint.
I certainly heavily disagree with the decision even if it came from noble intentions. Banning stuff you dislike, no matter how strongly you dislike it, isn't the answer. That's just going to drive a wedge between the sides and distract from the real issue. Honestly, what I think might really help is to actually give racism its platform and let it openly debate its heart out. If no one steps up to debate for the racist perspective, someone should play devil's advocate and really give it its time in the spotlight. So, exactly how well is it going to hold up against the harsh glare of facts?
I personally feel that all this tearing down statues and moral purity is just an attempt to stir the pot or if successful, the chance to claim false victory. The triumph of gay marriage didn't come from banning things. It came from people realizing that "the gays" weren't some evil other that existed somewhere else. Gay people were their friends and family. Gay people were their idols. It wasn't so long ago that I was the first LGBT person quite a few people had ever knowingly met and been friends with. Now, it is a little more challenging with visible physical characteristics since you can't come out as black or whatever but being white, I've actually experienced racist treatment from older black people who I often even ended up becoming friends with.
Banning art is comparable to book burning, ironically an action taken by the Nazi's.
I guess the more you try to avoid the thing you hate, the more you become that very thing.
Oddly enough D&D and early Magic were criticized for Satanic imagery from outside sources, now it's the company censoring itself from within. Really strange.
I assume we are at the dawn of the big 21st century ethnic genocide. An anti-white one.
The white genocide, white extinction,[1] or white replacement conspiracy theory[2][3][4] is a white supremacist[5][6][7][8] belief that there is a deliberate plot, often blamed on Jews,[5][8] to promote miscegenation,[9] mass non-white immigration, racial integration, low fertility rates, abortion, governmental land-confiscation from whites, organised violence,[10] and eliminationism in white-founded countries[5] in order to cause the extinction of whites through forced assimilation[10] and violent genocide.[1]
Honestly, what I think might really help is to actually give racism its platform and let it openly debate its heart out. If no one steps up to debate for the racist perspective, someone should play devil's advocate and really give it its time in the spotlight. So, exactly how well is it going to hold up against the harsh glare of facts?
Easy to say when the actual consequences don't really impact you directly, isn't it? A lot harder to stomach people debating your worth like it's a thought exercise when your day to day is defined by that dehumanization.
You want to debate the merits of racism, by all means have a great time. In private. Don't subject racialized people to it because I don't think they'd appreciate their humanity being up for debate.
The triumph of gay marriage didn't come from banning things. It came from people realizing that "the gays" weren't some evil other that existed somewhere else. Gay people were their friends and family. Gay people were their idols.
Gay rights absolutely progressed because of culture shifts where dehumanization, slurs, and violence were challenged and eventually filtered out of society (mostly). And at every turn, there were people making the same arguments we're seeing here. "Oh, we can't even use the word ****** anymore?? They're so sensitive." "I don't like that people call me a bigot for expressing my beliefs." "The world might censor me, but I still believe they're deviant." "What's next, treating trans people like they aren't crazy??"
Representation was definitely a big part of it, but let's not erase history here. A whole lotta bigots felt some kind of way about society telling them they couldn't treat the gays like second class citizens anymore. Housing and job discrimination had to be legally banned, conversion therapy is still being banned, hate crimes against the community were banned, in my country hate speech target LGBTQ2S+ people was banned, etc. We told everyone else they couldn't do hurtful things to us a lot, actually.
I've actually experienced racist treatment from older black people who I often even ended up becoming friends with.
While I agree with Invoke Prejudice's ban for obvious art reasons, and the Gypsies too, the other ones seem pretty hypocritical and pandering from WotC considering cards such as Torture and Murder are just fine.
Use of racist imagery and language is not the same as depictions of violence. That's not hypocritical on WotC's part, it's a blatant equivocation on yours.
The current protests and social outcries going on all over the world are for both racism and violence, not just one or the other.
The current protests and social outcries going on all over the world are for both racism and police violence. Not violence in general.
I certainly heavily disagree with the decision even if it came from noble intentions. Banning stuff you dislike, no matter how strongly you dislike it, isn't the answer. That's just going to drive a wedge between the sides and distract from the real issue. Honestly, what I think might really help is to actually give racism its platform and let it openly debate its heart out. If no one steps up to debate for the racist perspective, someone should play devil's advocate and really give it its time in the spotlight. So, exactly how well is it going to hold up against the harsh glare of facts?
I personally feel that all this tearing down statues and moral purity is just an attempt to stir the pot or if successful, the chance to claim false victory. The triumph of gay marriage didn't come from banning things. It came from people realizing that "the gays" weren't some evil other that existed somewhere else. Gay people were their friends and family. Gay people were their idols. It wasn't so long ago that I was the first LGBT person quite a few people had ever knowingly met and been friends with. Now, it is a little more challenging with visible physical characteristics since you can't come out as black or whatever but being white, I've actually experienced racist treatment from older black people who I often even ended up becoming friends with.
Realistically, it's a small gesture since only one or two of these cards see fringe play at best. However it also acknowledges that they were mistakes, and the admission of such actions is the first step to preventing similar mistakes in future.
I find the hypocrisy in the reactions to the GF murder as sickening as the event itself. In the past few days, we’ve seen corporates – many with questionable supply chains and recruitment practices – falling over themselves to align their 'message' with public sentiment. A constant circle-jerk of ankle biting celebs extolling their own ‘wokeness’ by publicly rejecting racism and slavery while wearing appropriated fashions and diamonds to camera that you can bet were pulled from the earth by questionable means. And, ‘protesters’ ripping down symbols to historical slavery then posting their efforts to ‘insta’ using phones manufactured by firms that rely on modern day slavery practices to preserve their profit lines.
Then we have the decision by the bbc and certain stars to pull any content that could be deemed offensive. Do they really expect us to believe this is an entirely conscious decision driving by authentic guilt, rather than an act of self-preservation?
A lot of people live in glass houses and need to look at themselves before they start throwing stones.
Reaction after virtuous reaction. All heat no light.
Ban death mark while your at it, if I see a person of Color playing this card I will say he is a racist as it is a black card that kills white creatures.........obviously I’m not being serious here, everyone on this planet is a hypocryte or has been a hypocryte, including me.
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My great-grandparents and grandparents where Holocaust escapees and from the stories they told about when they had to flee Poland don't really see the connection between Nazi book burning and magic deciding to not feature their own cards that have problematic elements.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
That is one hell of a big coincidence. Dang.
Boop. Now that's a bad look, they'll have to say something about that at some point.
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Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Fascism and racism are not free speech, they're hate speech, and do not deserve all of the same rights as a book that contains gay people in it or something. There is a harm principle at play. Fighting fascism and racism is not and never will be the same as performing it, even if you cross some line. The stain of fascism and racism on world history and culture is unique.
Regardless, as others have pointed out, this is not even state censorship in the first place, but a voluntary private decision. So it's definitely not comparable.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Black creatures do not equate black people though. By that logic, Virtue's Ruin destroy white creatures, does it mean white folks are innately more virtuous?
A generic word doesn't hold THAT much power. It'd be a lot different if the card is something like "Purging Savages" or has art depicting characters with African features.
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Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
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Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_stone-throwing
This is something WotC has known and acknowledged since at least 2014.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/106100301518/any-chance-of-seeing-the-arabian-nights-card
Nature's Ruin
Perish
Reign of Terror
Virtue's Ruin
The name 'Virtue's Ruin' does not evoke genocide. 'Cleanse' does, at least on a card that literally kills en mass. Virtue's Ruin evokes a fantasy villain killing all the good guys that oppose them. Cleanse is a bit murkier.
Yes, it could be worse. Yes, it's not that bad. Maybe it's not even bad enough. But eh? It's justifiable. You've got to draw the line somewhere.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I assume we are at the dawn of the big 21st century ethnic genocide. An anti-white one.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Use of racist imagery and language is not the same as depictions of violence. That's not hypocritical on WotC's part, it's a blatant equivocation on yours.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
The current protests and social outcries going on all over the world are for both racism and violence, not just one or the other.
I love the internet for always bringing the receipts. I think it's a much bigger deal that WotC knew about the racist overtones and did nothing than what cards they identified as problematic now. We can quibble over which of these cards *really* deserves to go, but I think it's far more consequential that WotC was clearly aware of the issues and took no action in that time. It's only now, when the movement of the moment is unavoidable that they acted.
That certainly takes a bit of energy out of my appreciation earlier.
Page three and we're already peddling white genocide bull*****. Lovely.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Keeping in line with the art being part of the problem (though I'm sure the titles, and to some extent the abilities and feel of the cards), I'm going to say that Crusade has two strikes against it above Honor the Pure:
I believe forced march is a good candidate for removal as well. Notably to me it invokes the "Trail of Tears" - a forced march of Native Americans that resulted in a catastrophic amount of deaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Agree it's common sense that it wasn't about race it's a card color.
wait for some would say how about white and red? whats next?
environmentalist for cards that targeted green?
how about marine life?
animal abuse like peta?
feminist seeing pictures of angels being beaten in cards?
We had multiple arts of crusade they should had done it with the og art not the other cards.
there are even multiple meaning with crusade
noun
a medieval military expedition, one of a series made by Europeans to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries.
verb
lead or take part in an energetic and organized campaign concerning a social, political, or religious issue.
"he crusaded against gambling in the 1950s"
So it isn't a offensive terminology as it was for the rest of the reprint.
this is too much.
I personally feel that all this tearing down statues and moral purity is just an attempt to stir the pot or if successful, the chance to claim false victory. The triumph of gay marriage didn't come from banning things. It came from people realizing that "the gays" weren't some evil other that existed somewhere else. Gay people were their friends and family. Gay people were their idols. It wasn't so long ago that I was the first LGBT person quite a few people had ever knowingly met and been friends with. Now, it is a little more challenging with visible physical characteristics since you can't come out as black or whatever but being white, I've actually experienced racist treatment from older black people who I often even ended up becoming friends with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory
Check yourself.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Easy to say when the actual consequences don't really impact you directly, isn't it? A lot harder to stomach people debating your worth like it's a thought exercise when your day to day is defined by that dehumanization.
You want to debate the merits of racism, by all means have a great time. In private. Don't subject racialized people to it because I don't think they'd appreciate their humanity being up for debate.
Gay rights absolutely progressed because of culture shifts where dehumanization, slurs, and violence were challenged and eventually filtered out of society (mostly). And at every turn, there were people making the same arguments we're seeing here. "Oh, we can't even use the word ****** anymore?? They're so sensitive." "I don't like that people call me a bigot for expressing my beliefs." "The world might censor me, but I still believe they're deviant." "What's next, treating trans people like they aren't crazy??"
Representation was definitely a big part of it, but let's not erase history here. A whole lotta bigots felt some kind of way about society telling them they couldn't treat the gays like second class citizens anymore. Housing and job discrimination had to be legally banned, conversion therapy is still being banned, hate crimes against the community were banned, in my country hate speech target LGBTQ2S+ people was banned, etc. We told everyone else they couldn't do hurtful things to us a lot, actually.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The current protests and social outcries going on all over the world are for both racism and police violence. Not violence in general.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Realistically, it's a small gesture since only one or two of these cards see fringe play at best. However it also acknowledges that they were mistakes, and the admission of such actions is the first step to preventing similar mistakes in future.
Then we have the decision by the bbc and certain stars to pull any content that could be deemed offensive. Do they really expect us to believe this is an entirely conscious decision driving by authentic guilt, rather than an act of self-preservation?
A lot of people live in glass houses and need to look at themselves before they start throwing stones.
Reaction after virtuous reaction. All heat no light.
It’s modern day slavery. If you support BLM, throw your iPhone and Samsung in the bin, it is symbolic of misery.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...balt-mines-drc
Ban death mark while your at it, if I see a person of Color playing this card I will say he is a racist as it is a black card that kills white creatures.........obviously I’m not being serious here, everyone on this planet is a hypocryte or has been a hypocryte, including me.