So I heard a rumor recently from DesolatorMagic on YouTube that All Pro Play involving Paper Magic as of right now is cancelled forever including MagicFest events by ChannelFireball though I don't know what this entails for Star City Games. Even though small Organized Play events are expected to open back up again on June 1st at LGSs across the globe these large Organized Play events will either have to be condensed to smaller player turnouts with a lower prize pool or event organizers will have to install plexiglas on tables with hand sanitizer at the ready which might not be such a bad idea unless players are required to wear masks and/or gloves (they'll probably have to let's face it). I don't think Paper Magic at LGSs are going to go away though it might look a bit different.
It seems as though ChannelFireball probably realized at this point given the current environment we're in right now, that the risk to operate these kind of big Paper Magic tournaments simply isn't worth the reward they're getting as Rudy from Alpha Investments mentioned several times. Having to go through these various safety procedures in order to keep people safe from spreading COVID-19 doesn't seem like something that these event organizers really want to do and who could blame them honestly. With too many people to keep track of with a tally counter, having to wipe down tables in-between game matches, making sure that no profanity has been written on plexiglas installed on tables, it's more work for them to do aside from announcing matches, pairings to see who plays who, and handing out prizes.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I wouldn't say forever. But until a viable vaccine is made widely available, for sure. But then again, there's this whole subset of people who don't believe in vaccines so I dunno. Maybe that's an American problem only and the Magic Fests in other locations will still take place.
It's only a matter of time before the game goes fully digital. Maybe Covid will have sped up this process. Might explain the plethora of products WotC is releasing this year. Just to get that stuff out of the way before they focus on the digital aspect.
MTGA just got that 3rd masters set (and it's pretty good, all things considered). Having the ability to curate their own format in the way they want to is probably going to be the eventual successor of modern (pioneer might have just been a band aid to bridge the gap).
It's only a matter of time before the game goes fully digital. Maybe Covid will have sped up this process. Might explain the plethora of products WotC is releasing this year. Just to get that stuff out of the way before they focus on the digital aspect.
That would fit in line with Hasbro "prepping" Wizards of the Coast as a company to be sold next year. The weird thing is that Rudy from Alpha Investments predicted this 2 years before COVID-19 occurred. Coincidence? Well I guess we're all going to have to find out now won't we?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
First, as a scientist, but let's face it - anyone that has a high school understanding of biology and immunology knows that vaccines work. Many if not most anti-vax people are actually highly educated and the opposition to vaccines stems from a risk-reward and oppression of personal choice. Vaccines have an efficacy between 10-90%, and side effects are difficult to determine and can be realized many years down the line. For instamce, Antibody mediated enhancement can create a catastrophic cascade resulting in much worse outcomes than those in an unvaccinated individual. (And just as an FYI covid is a member of the class of viruses that is difficult to safely vaccinate against)
That said, the idea of turning magic or any other social activity into an online only format is possible in the short term, but as a sustained model, it ends up failing. There is a reason gyms are popular - the competitive aspect, the gloating and encouragement that one gets from human interaction does not produce the same effects when taken out of a social environment. When paper magic dies, magic will die.
First, as a scientist, but let's face it - anyone that has a high school understanding of biology and immunology knows that vaccines work. Many if not most anti-vax people are actually highly educated and the opposition to vaccines stems from a risk-reward and oppression of personal choice. Vaccines have an efficacy between 10-90%, and side effects are difficult to determine and can be realized many years down the line. For instamce, Antibody mediated enhancement can create a catastrophic cascade resulting in much worse outcomes than those in an unvaccinated individual. (And just as an FYI covid is a member of the class of viruses that is difficult to safely vaccinate against)
That said, the idea of turning magic or any other social activity into an online only format is possible in the short term, but as a sustained model, it ends up failing. There is a reason gyms are popular - the competitive aspect, the gloating and encouragement that one gets from human interaction does not produce the same effects when taken out of a social environment. When paper magic dies, magic will die.
i agree completely, and if paper goes away so do i and the majority of the people in my play group. so do several of my local stores too, some of them were able to hold rather large events consistently.
unfortunately given all the changes over the past year, and the approach to both marketing and design, they do seem to heavily skew everything now toward short term sales rather than long term sustainability.
i do worry that trend will continue and that we're seeing the beginnings of the death of magic. i know, that's the sky is falling type rhetoric, but wotc or more likely hasbro, especially lately, has been taking the wrong lessons to heart. i'd wager that the surge in arena activity (due to covid) is misinterpret as a arena being a successful push toward complete digitization and the clear path moving forward, neglecting that stores would be holding events if they were allowed to right now. kind of like when we throw a gimmick into a bad set and it sells well, but we fail to realize its because of the gimmick and not because of set design so we get a similar pile of garbage churned out over the next few sets until sales dwindle and we're onto the next gimmick.
Slinger, there is a HUGE difference between cancelled forever and temporarily suspended. My advice, don't be so hyperbolic and/or don't buy into the hyperbole so readily.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Magic Fest was never shut down for getting "con crud". I got a major stomach bug from eating some con food at the last Magic Fest. Why shut down for something like this when people got sick anyway?
Magic Fest was never shut down for getting "con crud". I got a major stomach bug from eating some con food at the last Magic Fest. Why shut down for something like this when people got sick anyway?
Because getting the *****s from bad food you eat isn't very contagious and this disease that has killed 355,305 in a handful of months is.
That's very interesting, and certainly ominous. It's probably good that they're getting data, though the tenor of the questions makes me cautious about what WotC's next moves will be, especially in the back half when they ask about playing and spending habits changing over the past three months.
The video linked in OPs post...the guy repeatedly taunt spams BM emotes, ropes his opponent when he's dead on board, and a whole host of other unsavory behavior...it made the video very hard to get through. Makes me not really give much credence to his ramblings.
How much do you think Wizards makes from Magic in paper vs. magic digital?
And you think they're going to stop paper?
This is indeed a good point. I suppose my concern has more to do with how WotC responds to what I expect will be a downturn in paper sales during the pandemic. The survey implies to me that they have concerns of how the pandemic will impact paper play (and therefore sales). That doesn't mean I think they end paper Magic because of it directly, but if a persisting pandemic with potential waves of lockdowns slows sales growth, the stockholders will be demanding a change in strategy of some kind to get the profit train back on whatever targets have been set. If there is indeed a slump in paper sales (and we haven't been shown that that has happened, but it's certainly not unreasonable to expect given inability to play and financial realities for many players), the company will be pressed to do something to hit targets.
I don't know what that something is, I think you're right that it won't be to end paper Magic, but covid may have far reaching impacts on how the business views their products and organized play.
How much do you think Wizards makes from Magic in paper vs. magic digital?
And you think they're going to stop paper?
This is indeed a good point. I suppose my concern has more to do with how WotC responds to what I expect will be a downturn in paper sales during the pandemic. The survey implies to me that they have concerns of how the pandemic will impact paper play (and therefore sales). That doesn't mean I think they end paper Magic because of it directly, but if a persisting pandemic with potential waves of lockdowns slows sales growth, the stockholders will be demanding a change in strategy of some kind to get the profit train back on whatever targets have been set. If there is indeed a slump in paper sales (and we haven't been shown that that has happened, but it's certainly not unreasonable to expect given inability to play and financial realities for many players), the company will be pressed to do something to hit targets.
I don't know what that something is, I think you're right that it won't be to end paper Magic, but covid may have far reaching impacts on how the business views their products and organized play.
Fair enough - I agree with you on that. I worry that this situation will cause Wizards to lean into what seems to be their current focus on collectibles, premiums, and high-end packages that they can charge a lot for knowing full well that a majority of players won't be able to afford.
Just got confirmation from motleyslayer about this that he got off of Facebook, thought I'd share it with you all:
@everyone CFB events will be dissolved this year. I got this information first hand from a venue that got the news that CFB events will not fulfill their contracts and obligations this year. We double checked with people contracted by CFB and they confirm that they will be out of a job soon.
This will have a huge ripple effect we believe because this means zero competitive paper events from Wizards this year (for now).
Its unclear if this is a combination of COVID19 and / or their contract being terminated. COVID19 certainly didnt help.
CFB the cardshop is a separate entity so shouldnt be affected much. But this certainly means no events and no vendors buying cards.
CFB events (the part of CFB that ran MagicFests) will be dissolved as per end of year, so we don't know exactly what will happen with MagicFests after this year or what this means for Competitive Paper Magic but it's probably not good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
It's very likely that Magic will have a new company attempt to pickup the competitive large tournament scene for them, weather this turns out to be better or worse than CFB is unknown, but I'm from CA and know many of the CFB people from back before CFB was a thing, and they were extremely in love with MtG and were passionate about the game and providing good experiences for the players, so hopefully anyone else to pick up the mantle of large or pro magic tournaments will share those qualities.
It's very likely that Magic will have a new company attempt to pickup the competitive large tournament scene for them, weather this turns out to be better or worse than CFB is unknown, but I'm from CA and know many of the CFB people from back before CFB was a thing, and they were extremely in love with MtG and were passionate about the game and providing good experiences for the players, so hopefully anyone else to pick up the mantle of large or pro magic tournaments will share those qualities.
That actually led me to wondering whether If Star City Games was going to pick up the competitive large tournament scene from ChannelFireball.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Probably WotC will share the rights of magic fests between multiple event organisers around the world. I mean it is of for CFB to take care of Magic Fests in USA but if they need to take care of other magic fest say in Canada, Peru, Japan, France, etc etc etc all in a small time frame things will get pricy and hard to manage. I heard that CFB in Europe did some partnerships with old organizers because without them it would be impossible to do things(Wonder if they did this with the rest of magic fests around the world). I don't think they gained much (financially) from all those events, and they probably had to pay some to WotC to have exclusive rights over those events. Imo the Covid crash just accelerated things for CFB events...
It's only a matter of time before the game goes fully digital. Maybe Covid will have sped up this process. Might explain the plethora of products WotC is releasing this year. Just to get that stuff out of the way before they focus on the digital aspect.
That would fit in line with Hasbro "prepping" Wizards of the Coast as a company to be sold next year. The weird thing is that Rudy from Alpha Investments predicted this 2 years before COVID-19 occurred. Coincidence? Well I guess we're all going to have to find out now won't we?
What data leads you to believe that Hasbro is prepping to sell Wizard's of the Coast? I'd argue its quite the opposite as Hasbro has taken on a considerable amount of Goodwill in its most recent SEC Filing (which can include acquisitions and investments as minority/majority stakeholders and R&D), and Magic is mentioned several times as a high performer and major revenue contributor and profit center.
I left this on Tolarion Academy wall awhile back, but the recent offerings of the premium high dollar, yet limited product, is an excellent example of this kind of "fundraising"
What data leads you to believe that Hasbro is prepping to sell Wizard's of the Coast?
It's fairly obvious Hasbro is forcing WotC to produce more types of products in order to artificially elevate sales number growth:
Secret lairs, premium boosters, signature spell-books, duel decks, planeswalker decks, commander decks, a ton of auxiliary 'experimental' sets (such as Conspirac, Battlebond, Jump Start, masters sets, Mystery Booster Boxes, etc) sets each year now instead of just 1 each summer.
This leads to two results: it keeps earnings growth estimates up to keep stock holders an inverters happy, and secondly (and perhaps more importantly but certainly more relevant here) gives the illusion of elevated value through sales numbers growth instead of declining value if/when Hasbro decides WotC has peaked and it's time to sell them for maximum profits.
What data leads you to believe that Hasbro is prepping to sell Wizard's of the Coast?
It's fairly obvious Hasbro is forcing WotC to produce more types of products in order to artificially elevate sales number growth:
Secret lairs, premium boosters, signature spell-books, duel decks, planeswalker decks, commander decks, a ton of auxiliary 'experimental' sets (such as Conspirac, Battlebond, Jump Start, masters sets, Mystery Booster Boxes, etc) sets each year now instead of just 1 each summer.
This leads to two results: it keeps earnings growth estimates up to keep stock holders an inverters happy, and secondly (and perhaps more importantly but certainly more relevant here) gives the illusion of elevated value through sales numbers growth instead of declining value if/when Hasbro decides WotC has peaked and it's time to sell them for maximum profits.
Bingo. It's not just about catering to whales when it's about fulfilling a contractual obligation. I think it's also why we've been seeing Wizards of the Coast allowing so much power creep to run rampant in recent sets not to mention their unwillingness to do anything about the corruption involved with the MPL. It seems to be coming to a head with the recent banning of #1 Paper Magic player Austin Bursavich. Then you also have COVID-19 making it nearly impossible to play Paper Magic unless you own a $400 webcam to livestream while the MTG Secondary Market continues to skyrocket.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
They compensate their corona losses with premium products. Also more sales means more value not the other way around. Its laughable what economic logic magic players have.
Also who is supposed to be the buyer of wotc? Its not like hasbro could just ask for a price
It seems as though ChannelFireball probably realized at this point given the current environment we're in right now, that the risk to operate these kind of big Paper Magic tournaments simply isn't worth the reward they're getting as Rudy from Alpha Investments mentioned several times. Having to go through these various safety procedures in order to keep people safe from spreading COVID-19 doesn't seem like something that these event organizers really want to do and who could blame them honestly. With too many people to keep track of with a tally counter, having to wipe down tables in-between game matches, making sure that no profanity has been written on plexiglas installed on tables, it's more work for them to do aside from announcing matches, pairings to see who plays who, and handing out prizes.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
It's only a matter of time before the game goes fully digital. Maybe Covid will have sped up this process. Might explain the plethora of products WotC is releasing this year. Just to get that stuff out of the way before they focus on the digital aspect.
MTGA just got that 3rd masters set (and it's pretty good, all things considered). Having the ability to curate their own format in the way they want to is probably going to be the eventual successor of modern (pioneer might have just been a band aid to bridge the gap).
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
That said, the idea of turning magic or any other social activity into an online only format is possible in the short term, but as a sustained model, it ends up failing. There is a reason gyms are popular - the competitive aspect, the gloating and encouragement that one gets from human interaction does not produce the same effects when taken out of a social environment. When paper magic dies, magic will die.
i agree completely, and if paper goes away so do i and the majority of the people in my play group. so do several of my local stores too, some of them were able to hold rather large events consistently.
unfortunately given all the changes over the past year, and the approach to both marketing and design, they do seem to heavily skew everything now toward short term sales rather than long term sustainability.
i do worry that trend will continue and that we're seeing the beginnings of the death of magic. i know, that's the sky is falling type rhetoric, but wotc or more likely hasbro, especially lately, has been taking the wrong lessons to heart. i'd wager that the surge in arena activity (due to covid) is misinterpret as a arena being a successful push toward complete digitization and the clear path moving forward, neglecting that stores would be holding events if they were allowed to right now. kind of like when we throw a gimmick into a bad set and it sells well, but we fail to realize its because of the gimmick and not because of set design so we get a similar pile of garbage churned out over the next few sets until sales dwindle and we're onto the next gimmick.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Because getting the *****s from bad food you eat isn't very contagious and this disease that has killed 355,305 in a handful of months is.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
That's very interesting, and certainly ominous. It's probably good that they're getting data, though the tenor of the questions makes me cautious about what WotC's next moves will be, especially in the back half when they ask about playing and spending habits changing over the past three months.
Thank you for posting it here.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
And you think they're going to stop paper?
This is indeed a good point. I suppose my concern has more to do with how WotC responds to what I expect will be a downturn in paper sales during the pandemic. The survey implies to me that they have concerns of how the pandemic will impact paper play (and therefore sales). That doesn't mean I think they end paper Magic because of it directly, but if a persisting pandemic with potential waves of lockdowns slows sales growth, the stockholders will be demanding a change in strategy of some kind to get the profit train back on whatever targets have been set. If there is indeed a slump in paper sales (and we haven't been shown that that has happened, but it's certainly not unreasonable to expect given inability to play and financial realities for many players), the company will be pressed to do something to hit targets.
I don't know what that something is, I think you're right that it won't be to end paper Magic, but covid may have far reaching impacts on how the business views their products and organized play.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Fair enough - I agree with you on that. I worry that this situation will cause Wizards to lean into what seems to be their current focus on collectibles, premiums, and high-end packages that they can charge a lot for knowing full well that a majority of players won't be able to afford.
CFB events (the part of CFB that ran MagicFests) will be dissolved as per end of year, so we don't know exactly what will happen with MagicFests after this year or what this means for Competitive Paper Magic but it's probably not good.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
What data leads you to believe that Hasbro is prepping to sell Wizard's of the Coast? I'd argue its quite the opposite as Hasbro has taken on a considerable amount of Goodwill in its most recent SEC Filing (which can include acquisitions and investments as minority/majority stakeholders and R&D), and Magic is mentioned several times as a high performer and major revenue contributor and profit center.
I left this on Tolarion Academy wall awhile back, but the recent offerings of the premium high dollar, yet limited product, is an excellent example of this kind of "fundraising"
Sometimes I stream on twitch.tv/Game_Haus
Come trade with Puca Trade!, the best place to get those hard to get cards no one else will trade!
It's fairly obvious Hasbro is forcing WotC to produce more types of products in order to artificially elevate sales number growth:
Secret lairs, premium boosters, signature spell-books, duel decks, planeswalker decks, commander decks, a ton of auxiliary 'experimental' sets (such as Conspirac, Battlebond, Jump Start, masters sets, Mystery Booster Boxes, etc) sets each year now instead of just 1 each summer.
This leads to two results: it keeps earnings growth estimates up to keep stock holders an inverters happy, and secondly (and perhaps more importantly but certainly more relevant here) gives the illusion of elevated value through sales numbers growth instead of declining value if/when Hasbro decides WotC has peaked and it's time to sell them for maximum profits.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Also who is supposed to be the buyer of wotc? Its not like hasbro could just ask for a price
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t