Isn’t it a color pie bend or break? Red is the color of rage, need and risk... it’s all or nothing. So, why is red putting cards in the bottom of the library? If I’m not wrong, it’s the first ever card in red that gives a draw without discard.
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Isn’t it a color pie bend or break? Red is the color of rage, need and risk... it’s all or nothing. So, why is red putting cards in the bottom of the library? If I’m not wrong, it’s the first ever card in red that gives a draw without discard.
I mean there's not a whole lot of difference between the bottom of the deck and discard. In fact, aside from exile, I'd argue that the bottom of the deck is MORE out of play than the graveyard.
I like this a LOT more than the exile-draw red has. I really hope red does this instead long term.
This is really just a "rummage" (discard to draw) variant, and with these numbers it isn't card advantage either (ignoring the damage part of the card, just talking about the ability itself).
Isn’t it a color pie bend or break? Red is the color of rage, need and risk... it’s all or nothing. So, why is red putting cards in the bottom of the library? If I’m not wrong, it’s the first ever card in red that gives a draw without discard.
Again, I'm just not that excited by this, it is worse than discard most of the time (doesn't get you fun discard triggers or put something valuable in the graveyard).
The card itself seems great, because "kill a creature, discard one, then draw one" is great for 2 mana. But I wouldn't really consider this some brand new form of card draw for red. **Also, it is a total nonbo with the Rielle, the Everwise, who is quoted on the card, so that kinda sucks.
Isn’t it a color pie bend or break? Red is the color of rage, need and risk... it’s all or nothing. So, why is red putting cards in the bottom of the library? If I’m not wrong, it’s the first ever card in red that gives a draw without discard.
At worst its a bend, but its not a break. Red is still shortsighted. Instead of just pitching a card to the graveyard, it puts on the bottom of the library where it would likely never see it again, unless you are playing Grenzo, Dungeon Warden anyway. So in a way it can still be viewed as all or nothing within the context of just this card.
I do not care for this effect, though the card is fine. Discarding is far more desirable a drawback than bottom of the library. They should have give this to white.
I love the new design! There are plenty of janky combo decks where you want to cheat something out of your library, and now there is a cheap way (outside of legacy) to put something stuck in your hand back in your deck, all while gaining value. Awesome!
I feel like the point being missed here is that this iteration of rummaging is purposefully weaker than "discard, then draw". That allows it be put on stronger cards, since it's harder to make into a net profit (such as discarding a card that wants to be in the graveyard). They would likely not have printed this as a "discard, then draw" spell.
WotC just knows that the more discard they print, the more likely graveyards strategies are to take over formats. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a "fixed" Faithless Looting variant in the next few years that's 1cmc: tuck 2 cards to draw 2 cards.
WotC just knows that the more discard they print, the more likely graveyards strategies are to take over formats. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a "fixed" Faithless Looting variant in the next few years that's 1cmc: tuck 2 cards to draw 2 cards.
To be sincere, that's the same idea that came to my mind... but I think they should not let the graveyard strategy die. There should be graveyard decks... the strategy needs good enablers. I hate tron... but even I know Tron should exist. The same with graveyard decks... they should and have to exist. It's not ok to let an entire archetype die.
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I feel like the point being missed here is that this iteration of rummaging is purposefully weaker than "discard, then draw". That allows it be put on stronger cards, since it's harder to make into a net profit (such as discarding a card that wants to be in the graveyard). They would likely not have printed this as a "discard, then draw" spell.
Oh definitely, I agree. And I agree with what others are saying re: future graveyard shenanigans only increasing. This is probably sort of a "test run" of this effect which we will be seeing more of.
I don't think this means the end of self-discard, though. Like a lot of other things, this can be a "knob" for Wotc to play with. They put Cathartic Reunion in the same set, so they clearly aren't giving up "discard to draw" as an ability.
I do not care for this effect, though the card is fine. Discarding is far more desirable a drawback than bottom of the library. They should have give this to white.
If discard is more desirable because you want and can use them from the graveyard then it’s not a drawback anymore.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I feel like the point being missed here is that this iteration of rummaging is purposefully weaker than "discard, then draw". That allows it be put on stronger cards, since it's harder to make into a net profit (such as discarding a card that wants to be in the graveyard). They would likely not have printed this as a "discard, then draw" spell.
Oh definitely, I agree. And I agree with what others are saying re: future graveyard shenanigans only increasing. This is probably sort of a "test run" of this effect which we will be seeing more of.
I don't think this means the end of self-discard, though. Like a lot of other things, this can be a "knob" for Wotc to play with. They put Cathartic Reunion in the same set, so they clearly aren't giving up "discard to draw" as an ability.
Agreed. And they're probably more likely to do lots of discard to graveyard in sets that have a graveyard theme, or those sets around it. This just gives them an extra option to turn up the power level on certain effects without risking graveyard synergies.
I do not care for this effect, though the card is fine. Discarding is far more desirable a drawback than bottom of the library. They should have give this to white.
If discard is more desirable because you want and can use them from the graveyard then it’s not a drawback anymore.
Making a drawback work to your advantage does not mean it wasn't designed to be a drawback. The point of designing a good drawback is to give players the sense of agency and freedom to discover ways of "cheating" the drawback, it makes them feel clever and the game feel more fun. Magic players like to feel clever, so the desirable drawback is one where there are more (and varied) ways to interact with the drawback and bottom of the library currently has limited ways to be interacted with and discard has a lot.
1R
Instant C
~ deals 3 damage to target creature. You may put a card from your hand on the bottom of your library. If you do, draw a card.
*****. This is a legit card. The card that Gavin and the R color council member were talking about in terms of new red draw design.
But dang the fact you can put a card you don’t need on the bottom to replace it is dope
(Should have Ben discard though)
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I mean there's not a whole lot of difference between the bottom of the deck and discard. In fact, aside from exile, I'd argue that the bottom of the deck is MORE out of play than the graveyard.
This is really just a "rummage" (discard to draw) variant, and with these numbers it isn't card advantage either (ignoring the damage part of the card, just talking about the ability itself).
Again, I'm just not that excited by this, it is worse than discard most of the time (doesn't get you fun discard triggers or put something valuable in the graveyard).
The card itself seems great, because "kill a creature, discard one, then draw one" is great for 2 mana. But I wouldn't really consider this some brand new form of card draw for red. **Also, it is a total nonbo with the Rielle, the Everwise, who is quoted on the card, so that kinda sucks.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
To be sincere, that's the same idea that came to my mind... but I think they should not let the graveyard strategy die. There should be graveyard decks... the strategy needs good enablers. I hate tron... but even I know Tron should exist. The same with graveyard decks... they should and have to exist. It's not ok to let an entire archetype die.
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Oh definitely, I agree. And I agree with what others are saying re: future graveyard shenanigans only increasing. This is probably sort of a "test run" of this effect which we will be seeing more of.
I don't think this means the end of self-discard, though. Like a lot of other things, this can be a "knob" for Wotc to play with. They put Cathartic Reunion in the same set, so they clearly aren't giving up "discard to draw" as an ability.
If discard is more desirable because you want and can use them from the graveyard then it’s not a drawback anymore.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Making a drawback work to your advantage does not mean it wasn't designed to be a drawback. The point of designing a good drawback is to give players the sense of agency and freedom to discover ways of "cheating" the drawback, it makes them feel clever and the game feel more fun. Magic players like to feel clever, so the desirable drawback is one where there are more (and varied) ways to interact with the drawback and bottom of the library currently has limited ways to be interacted with and discard has a lot.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Or Demonic Consultation for Evil Eye of Orms-by-Gore (you don't have it in your library, obviously), exile your library, then play Thassa's Oracle
No extra card, no red involved.
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