I just wanna point out that nothing prevents you from dropping the hawk again the same turn it bounces itself. If ramping becomes that important, you can just keep hitting people, bouncing the hawk, and replaying it that same turn. So it doesn't have to ramp on turns 3, 5, and 7, it can ramp on turns 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 if you can keep connecting and want to invest in it.
The point was already made that, while you're busy fiddling with Glacier Hawk, any player ramping with green is already going off and winning the game.
Hmm not necessarily. Context is king afterall. Out of context skews things.
Are we playing commander where I only have one hawk, or standard for example where I potentially have four? Do I have access to a haste enabler such as Crashing Drawbridge? How many ramp spells have been played by my opponent? How many more lands are they ahead? What turn is it? Does my opponent have reach? Does my opponent have an anti-air spell?
The given reason white isn't suppose to get ramp or draw is since is suppose to be able to answer anything and these keep it in check. I'm guessing the idea is you don't always ramp to match but to also thin your deck and help you cast more answers. If it works in play is debatable.
Another thing to keep in mind is to wait and play your normal land drop after the bird hits someone. I do that with Knight of the White Orchid and not the best most effective way it also is away thin out and ramp as well as giving you somewhat of a benefit for not going first.
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you need this alive for at least 4 turns to go over the usual mono-white one-land-per-turn situation
That's only if you play like a robot and mindlessly recast the bird every turn. You can have 5 lands available (and 1 tapped) on turn 4 if you just... don't replay the hawk when you've got a juicy 5 drop. Untap and go into turn 5 with 7 mana, which is a pretty decent amount of ramp out of 1 card and 4 mana.
I just wanna point out that nothing prevents you from dropping the hawk again the same turn it bounces itself. If ramping becomes that important, you can just keep hitting people, bouncing the hawk, and replaying it that same turn. So it doesn't have to ramp on turns 3, 5, and 7, it can ramp on turns 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 if you can keep connecting and want to invest in it.
The point was already made that, while you're busy fiddling with Glacier Hawk, any player ramping with green is already going off and winning the game.
Hmm not necessarily. Context is king afterall. Out of context skews things.
Are we playing commander where I only have one hawk, or standard for example where I potentially have four? Do I have access to a haste enabler such as Crashing Drawbridge? How many ramp spells have been played by my opponent? How many more lands are they ahead? What turn is it? Does my opponent have reach? Does my opponent have an anti-air spell?
So... it's better than Thawing Glacier. I'd go on a limb and say it's better than burnished hart as well (by the time you can sacrifice the hart, you'd have gotten an equal amount of land from the hawk for 2 less mana). While this isn't smothering tithe, this might be the next-best actual ramp spell that white has.
While these aren't huge hurdles to clear, it feels like people are complaining about the card for reasons that aren't related to the card. White now has its own version of Farseek and people are complaining because having a Farseek (even one with free buyback) doesn't keep up with Skyshroud Claim and Boundless Realms cast in subsequent turns. If the complaint is that white doesn't yet have a critical mass of ramp cards throughout the mana curve, literally no single card could have "fixed" that problem.
To be fair, I realize that white really needs access to extra mana before turn 4 (when the first land this thing grabs you untaps). That problem isn't solved by this card. As far as producing a usable ramp card, however, this card seems to deliver.
So... it's better than Thawing Glacier. I'd go on a limb and say it's better than burnished hart as well (by the time you can sacrifice the hart, you'd have gotten an equal amount of land from the hawk for 2 less mana). While this isn't smothering tithe, this might be the next-best actual ramp spell that white has.
While these aren't huge hurdles to clear, it feels like people are complaining about the card for reasons that aren't related to the card. White now has its own version of Farseek and people are complaining because having a Farseek (even one with free buyback) doesn't keep up with Skyshroud Claim and Boundless Realms cast in subsequent turns. If the complaint is that white doesn't yet have a critical mass of ramp cards throughout the mana curve, literally no single card could have "fixed" that problem.
To be fair, I realize that white really needs access to extra mana before turn 4 (when the first land this thing grabs you untaps). That problem isn't solved by this card. As far as producing a usable ramp card, however, this card seems to deliver.
Except that, because it's a land, Thawing Glaciers doesn't really have an opportunity cost so far as deck space is concerned. And in this particular color, I'd rather have Burnished Hart buddy up with Sun Titan than play Glacier Hawk any number of times.
or standard for example where I potentially have four?
I'd say that experience easily counts for as much as context. Have you played EDH before? I don't have 7 turns to waste doing absolutely nothing but fetching plains, and my opponents are typically making very aggressive - and potentially game winning - plays by then, especially when they have access to real ramp.
or standard for example where I potentially have four?
I'd say that experience easily counts for as much as context. Have you played EDH before? I don't have 7 turns to waste doing absolutely nothing but fetching plains, and my opponents are typically making very aggressive - and potentially game winning - plays by then, especially when they have access to real ramp.
Well you aren't necessarily wasting 7 turns. Unless you are playing cutthroat edh, but then thats cutthroat edh. Even if you swung, bounced, replayed, you would still have leftover mana. So building a deck a low average cmc would actually mean you could do multiple things a turn.
Literally going in all my commander decks that have white but not green.
EDIT: Thinking again... Maybe not. The lack of haste is a killer.
EDIT 2: The first time you play this, you have to wait a turn before he can attack. After that you just leave 2 mana up and cast him in your second main phase. So effectively he becomes 2 mana ramp every turn. Not bad. Especially for White.
While admirable for white, I just don’t understand why this needed to be returned to the hand, effectively compromising the “ramp” it itself permitted? Had it ramped as an attack trigger I could understand. As it is, this should have remained IMO. Not bad, just not all it could have been. I prefer the new white courser. But both are good to use with the Pegasus and Birth of Meletis, Tithe, Land Tax, Gift of Estates and Knight of the White Orchid/Weathered Wayfarer. Few are in the league of smothering tithe which thankfully white can tutor...
This is *not* going to happen every game, but running Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves is pretty much just good deckbuilding.
T1 - Plains(or any other mana source) Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves
T2 - Bird, equip, swing, fetch your land, play a land. Make a 1 mana play
T3 - Bird again, equip, swing, fetch.
Again, this is the cieling of what can be done, but if you have ways to eat your own lands (like Kjeldoran Outpost, Dust Bowl etc. this gets very sick. So that's the tension the developers had when designing the card. It may have been nerfed a little too hard, but if it were much better it would have to be a green card or just break the pie.
This is *not* going to happen every game, but running Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves is pretty much just good deckbuilding.
T1 - Plains(or any other mana source) Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves
T2 - Bird, equip, swing, fetch your land, play a land. Make a 1 mana play
T3 - Bird again, equip, swing, fetch.
Again, this is the cieling of what can be done, but if you have ways to eat your own lands (like Kjeldoran Outpost, Dust Bowl etc. this gets very sick. So that's the tension the developers had when designing the card. It may have been nerfed a little too hard, but if it were much better it would have to be a green card or just break the pie.
This is *not* going to happen every game, but running Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves is pretty much just good deckbuilding.
T1 - Plains(or any other mana source) Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves
T2 - Bird, equip, swing, fetch your land, play a land. Make a 1 mana play
T3 - Bird again, equip, swing, fetch.
Again, this is the cieling of what can be done, but if you have ways to eat your own lands (like Kjeldoran Outpost, Dust Bowl etc. this gets very sick. So that's the tension the developers had when designing the card. It may have been nerfed a little too hard, but if it were much better it would have to be a green card or just break the pie.
Because, as you pointed out - it's not good. My play scenario is a perfectly fine way to play out your first few turns. Sword of the Animist on something like a T1 [card[Diamond Mare[/card] (or other 2CMC or less beasty you can play off of sol Ring) is also a fine way for white to get lands off a T1 Sol Ring.
Can you get incidental value from Glacier Hawk with EDH staples you're likely to already have in your deck? Yeah, absolutely. Is that enough to warrant replacing something else in the 99? My personal opinion is no, it's not. A general principal of Magic is "don't play bad cards just because they combo well with something else." Stick with Land Tax and, if you want something that's good on its own and also combos with Lightning Greaves, Weathered Wayfarer. Also: don't play mono white.
This is *not* going to happen every game, but running Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves is pretty much just good deckbuilding.
T1 - Plains(or any other mana source) Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves
T2 - Bird, equip, swing, fetch your land, play a land. Make a 1 mana play
T3 - Bird again, equip, swing, fetch.
Again, this is the cieling of what can be done, but if you have ways to eat your own lands (like Kjeldoran Outpost, Dust Bowl etc. this gets very sick. So that's the tension the developers had when designing the card. It may have been nerfed a little too hard, but if it were much better it would have to be a green card or just break the pie.
you've certainly got a fair point, but those stars need to align pretty well... and honestly, i almost never see greaves these days. there has been a HUGE influx of board wipes and spot removal, so a lot of players just kinda stopped running it because their crap gets bounced, wiped, or killed in response to the equip.
its still a valid point, any haste enabler with this does increase the potential for sure
Can you get incidental value from Glacier Hawk with EDH staples you're likely to already have in your deck? Yeah, absolutely. Is that enough to warrant replacing something else in the 99? My personal opinion is no, it's not. A general principal of Magic is "don't play bad cards just because they combo well with something else." Stick with Land Tax and, if you want something that's good on its own and also combos with Lightning Greaves, Weathered Wayfarer. Also: don't play mono white.
The hope is that this, and a few other cards will be enough to open up mono white. I certainly agree this isn't enough on its own but rather then replacing something in the 99 for existing options maybe this will help add some consistency to those decks. Land Tax,, Withered Wayfarer, Sword of the Animist and even original Thawing Hlaciers are all cards that fill the same role, but having 1 more option isn't the worst idea. Obviously color shifted farseek would be better but we're never getting that.
This card is bad, but it represents the floor of what they're allowing White to do with land ramp now. It can only go up from here.
I guess the reason it returns to your hand is like a reference to falconing? There's some flavor to it but making the ramp conditional on your opponent's board state is already enough of a drawback, it doesn't need more piled on.
I guess the reason it returns to your hand is like a reference to falconing?
Probably more because Primeval Titan touched too many people inappropriately. Like a powerful, green Joe Biden.
They specifically said they tested it without the return to hand clause, and found it too strong. Which makes sense, given it could be a Farseek every turn as long as someone else was ramping.
I guess the reason it returns to your hand is like a reference to falconing?
Probably more because Primeval Titan touched too many people inappropriately. Like a powerful, green Joe Biden.
They specifically said they tested it without the return to hand clause, and found it too strong. Which makes sense, given it could be a Farseek every turn as long as someone else was ramping.
That’s what doesn’t sit well with me. The fact that for it to be a Rampant Growth every turn, someone else must be ramping. So, at best, you’re just maintaining parity. Why is that too strong?
You also have to hit the player that is ramping, so that’s already two restrictions just to keep up. It’s silly to me and I’m a fan of the color pie concept. But c’mon...
That’s what doesn’t sit well with me. The fact that for it to be a Rampant Growth every turn, someone else must be ramping. So, at best, you’re just maintaining parity. Why is that too strong?
Because even the Green player is using multiple cards to ramp - as said itt, Farseek into Kodama's Reach into Skyshroud Claim and so forth.
And you're keeping up with all that ramp with only a single two-drop.
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turn 2: play Hawk (2 lands, 0 available)
turn 3: attack, replay Hawk (4 lands, 2 available)
turn 4: attack, replay Hawk (6 lands, 4 available)
turn 5: attack, replay Hawk (8 lands, 6 available)
turn 6: attack, replay Hawk (10 lands, 8 available)
you need this alive for at least 4 turns to go over the usual mono-white one-land-per-turn situation
Are we playing commander where I only have one hawk, or standard for example where I potentially have four? Do I have access to a haste enabler such as Crashing Drawbridge? How many ramp spells have been played by my opponent? How many more lands are they ahead? What turn is it? Does my opponent have reach? Does my opponent have an anti-air spell?
Another thing to keep in mind is to wait and play your normal land drop after the bird hits someone. I do that with Knight of the White Orchid and not the best most effective way it also is away thin out and ramp as well as giving you somewhat of a benefit for not going first.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This card is not legal in Standard.
While these aren't huge hurdles to clear, it feels like people are complaining about the card for reasons that aren't related to the card. White now has its own version of Farseek and people are complaining because having a Farseek (even one with free buyback) doesn't keep up with Skyshroud Claim and Boundless Realms cast in subsequent turns. If the complaint is that white doesn't yet have a critical mass of ramp cards throughout the mana curve, literally no single card could have "fixed" that problem.
To be fair, I realize that white really needs access to extra mana before turn 4 (when the first land this thing grabs you untaps). That problem isn't solved by this card. As far as producing a usable ramp card, however, this card seems to deliver.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Except that, because it's a land, Thawing Glaciers doesn't really have an opportunity cost so far as deck space is concerned. And in this particular color, I'd rather have Burnished Hart buddy up with Sun Titan than play Glacier Hawk any number of times.
I'd say that experience easily counts for as much as context. Have you played EDH before? I don't have 7 turns to waste doing absolutely nothing but fetching plains, and my opponents are typically making very aggressive - and potentially game winning - plays by then, especially when they have access to real ramp.
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#DefundThePolice
EDIT: Thinking again... Maybe not. The lack of haste is a killer.
EDIT 2: The first time you play this, you have to wait a turn before he can attack. After that you just leave 2 mana up and cast him in your second main phase. So effectively he becomes 2 mana ramp every turn. Not bad. Especially for White.
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#DefundThePolice
But it doesnt, still "ok", but unreliable form of ramp.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
WotC: "We have a rampant growth at home."
The rampant growth at home: Cartographer's Hawk
This is *not* going to happen every game, but running Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves is pretty much just good deckbuilding.
T1 - Plains(or any other mana source) Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves
T2 - Bird, equip, swing, fetch your land, play a land. Make a 1 mana play
T3 - Bird again, equip, swing, fetch.
Again, this is the cieling of what can be done, but if you have ways to eat your own lands (like Kjeldoran Outpost, Dust Bowl etc. this gets very sick. So that's the tension the developers had when designing the card. It may have been nerfed a little too hard, but if it were much better it would have to be a green card or just break the pie.
Why not add Amulet of Vigor and Sword of the Animist for one of the most underwhelming 5 card combos ever printed?
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Because, as you pointed out - it's not good. My play scenario is a perfectly fine way to play out your first few turns. Sword of the Animist on something like a T1 [card[Diamond Mare[/card] (or other 2CMC or less beasty you can play off of sol Ring) is also a fine way for white to get lands off a T1 Sol Ring.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
you've certainly got a fair point, but those stars need to align pretty well... and honestly, i almost never see greaves these days. there has been a HUGE influx of board wipes and spot removal, so a lot of players just kinda stopped running it because their crap gets bounced, wiped, or killed in response to the equip.
its still a valid point, any haste enabler with this does increase the potential for sure
The hope is that this, and a few other cards will be enough to open up mono white. I certainly agree this isn't enough on its own but rather then replacing something in the 99 for existing options maybe this will help add some consistency to those decks. Land Tax,, Withered Wayfarer, Sword of the Animist and even original Thawing Hlaciers are all cards that fill the same role, but having 1 more option isn't the worst idea. Obviously color shifted farseek would be better but we're never getting that.
I guess the reason it returns to your hand is like a reference to falconing? There's some flavor to it but making the ramp conditional on your opponent's board state is already enough of a drawback, it doesn't need more piled on.
Probably more because Primeval Titan touched too many people inappropriately. Like a powerful, green Joe Biden.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
That’s what doesn’t sit well with me. The fact that for it to be a Rampant Growth every turn, someone else must be ramping. So, at best, you’re just maintaining parity. Why is that too strong?
You also have to hit the player that is ramping, so that’s already two restrictions just to keep up. It’s silly to me and I’m a fan of the color pie concept. But c’mon...
And you're keeping up with all that ramp with only a single two-drop.