----------------------------------------------- rxphantom asked: High fives for Secret Lair! My local game store, like most, was frankly doing too well, making too much money, and needed to be knocked down a peg.
First off, you have a valid question “Why can’t you run Secret Lair through local game stores?” Framing it as a passive-aggressive snide response adds an unnecessary tone to the post and most of the time will keep people from answering your question. When seeking answers, be polite. Quite often, as you’ll see with this answer, there are reasons you might be unaware of.
So why don’t we run Secret Lair through local game stores? The short answer is we can’t logistically, at least not without drastically raising the price and taking significantly longer to get the product to you.
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
Local game stores are very important to us and we’re making more products than ever sold through local game stores, but not every product works cleanly through them, Secret Lair being a good example. It’s just logistically and financially unviable.
------------------------------------------------
I don't get why shipping these Secret Lair cards to LGS costs more; they could be included with other releases like Ikoria, for example. It sounds a bit bogus to me, but it might be true. Who knows?
I sell product to people that make responsible decisions.
Not everyone has to be shady and piss on customers to make a living.
Selling candy flavored vape to children is a shady business practice. This is basic marketing, and adults with a paycheck and a degree of restraint should know better.
So why don’t we run Secret Lair through local game stores? The short answer is we can’t logistically, at least not without drastically raising the price and taking significantly longer to get the product to you.
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
I don't get why shipping these Secret Lair cards to LGS costs more; they could be included with other releases like Ikoria, for example. It sounds a bit bogus to me, but it might be true. Who knows?
I mean, if you want to produce a product only for the people who pre-order it, it doesn't make much sense to add a middleman who then ships it to you. If you want to sell something with a limited window to order, it also doesn't make sense to do it through an lgs since they have to reply back with signups somehow and coordinate orders. You could try, but it's just not going to work as well as direct sales.
If you're thinking of it more like a from the vault type situation, then that removes the whole limited window, secret revealed shortly before, bespoke nature of the product.
----------------------------------------------- rxphantom asked: High fives for Secret Lair! My local game store, like most, was frankly doing too well, making too much money, and needed to be knocked down a peg.
First off, you have a valid question “Why can’t you run Secret Lair through local game stores?” Framing it as a passive-aggressive snide response adds an unnecessary tone to the post and most of the time will keep people from answering your question. When seeking answers, be polite. Quite often, as you’ll see with this answer, there are reasons you might be unaware of.
So why don’t we run Secret Lair through local game stores? The short answer is we can’t logistically, at least not without drastically raising the price and taking significantly longer to get the product to you.
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
Local game stores are very important to us and we’re making more products than ever sold through local game stores, but not every product works cleanly through them, Secret Lair being a good example. It’s just logistically and financially unviable.
------------------------------------------------
I don't get why shipping these Secret Lair cards to LGS costs more; they could be included with other releases like Ikoria, for example. It sounds a bit bogus to me, but it might be true. Who knows?
Because this lets the scoot around many of the things they dislike.
These things being the following. Certain specialty products sitting on the shelf at some LGS, gathering dust, as nobody wants it really after the initial hype. Then you got buyer's guides coming out telling you if it should be bought or not, as they talk about things like the quality of the card stock or if the foiling was bad. Then there is the extra payment on the overhead for storing these products in some warehouse because they made more than was needed.
Buyer's guides can't be truthfully made if the product is always on limited-time offer, as they can't tell you if the card stock got better or if the foiling process improved, they can only make assumptions. The company doesn't need to pay a fee for warehouses if they only met the demand within that limited window. Products won't sit on some shelf unless a LGS owner bought as much as they could.
These are offers done in the same way as mobile games would do, attached image for an example. As they put it as this special thing up for a limited amount of time. It targets your impulse buying, your feeling of missing out. And the artwork is deliberately done to appeal to as many different demographics as possible, including children with an easy potshot example being <explosion sounds> that looks like it was ripped from one of the Clash Royal / Clash of Clans games.
The product's marketing and accessibility is very manipulative. Just take the upcoming one for example. So far these have been based on holidays in some manner. So the next one out in a few days is Valentine's Day themed. And its specifically launching on that day no less. So now you got to make a decision if you do have a significant other, how much do you save for the secret lair and how much do you spend on them? Five lairs can be around $150-$200. The only people who don't have to make this decision are those not currently in a relationship.
Then there is the lie that Mark Rosewater states about having to raise the price and that it would take longer. The increased cost is just a multiplier for how much cash they can grab. They sold Planeswalker Decks which is packaging + 60 cards. These lairs are just packing + 3-8 cards. At most the packaging might cost them a bit more. Yet when done in large runs, like in the hundred thousands, its cheap. Its only expensive if they made a few.
If that all disgusts you, good, you should feel disgusted.
ATTACHMENTS
t3spi4eirpv11
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
----------------------------------------------- rxphantom asked: High fives for Secret Lair! My local game store, like most, was frankly doing too well, making too much money, and needed to be knocked down a peg.
First off, you have a valid question “Why can’t you run Secret Lair through local game stores?” Framing it as a passive-aggressive snide response adds an unnecessary tone to the post and most of the time will keep people from answering your question. When seeking answers, be polite. Quite often, as you’ll see with this answer, there are reasons you might be unaware of.
So why don’t we run Secret Lair through local game stores? The short answer is we can’t logistically, at least not without drastically raising the price and taking significantly longer to get the product to you.
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
Local game stores are very important to us and we’re making more products than ever sold through local game stores, but not every product works cleanly through them, Secret Lair being a good example. It’s just logistically and financially unviable.
------------------------------------------------
I don't get why shipping these Secret Lair cards to LGS costs more; they could be included with other releases like Ikoria, for example. It sounds a bit bogus to me, but it might be true. Who knows?
Because this lets the scoot around many of the things they dislike.
These things being the following. Certain specialty products sitting on the shelf at some LGS, gathering dust, as nobody wants it really after the initial hype. Then you got buyer's guides coming out telling you if it should be bought or not, as they talk about things like the quality of the card stock or if the foiling was bad. Then there is the extra payment on the overhead for storing these products in some warehouse because they made more than was needed.
Buyer's guides can't be truthfully made if the product is always on limited-time offer, as they can't tell you if the card stock got better or if the foiling process improved, they can only make assumptions. The company doesn't need to pay a fee for warehouses if they only met the demand within that limited window. Products won't sit on some shelf unless a LGS owner bought as much as they could.
These are offers done in the same way as mobile games would do, attached image for an example. As they put it as this special thing up for a limited amount of time. It targets your impulse buying, your feeling of missing out. And the artwork is deliberately done to appeal to as many different demographics as possible, including children with an easy potshot example being <explosion sounds> that looks like it was ripped from one of the Clash Royal / Clash of Clans games.
The product's marketing and accessibility is very manipulative. Just take the upcoming one for example. So far these have been based on holidays in some manner. So the next one out in a few days is Valentine's Day themed. And its specifically launching on that day no less. So now you got to make a decision if you do have a significant other, how much do you save for the secret lair and how much do you spend on them? Five lairs can be around $150-$200. The only people who don't have to make this decision are those not currently in a relationship.
Then there is the lie that Mark Rosewater states about having to raise the price and that it would take longer. The increased cost is just a multiplier for how much cash they can grab. They sold Planeswalker Decks which is packaging + 60 cards. These lairs are just packing + 3-8 cards. At most the packaging might cost them a bit more. Yet when done in large runs, like in the hundred thousands, its cheap. Its only expensive if they made a few.
If that all disgusts you, good, you should feel disgusted.
And if I'm not disgusted, how should I feel then? Your underlying premise is that, for whichever demographic Wizards is targeting, these are must-haves in their entirety. I fundamentally disagree with that premise; for most players these hold no interest, a few players will want some of them, and a scant few will feel the need to own them all. Only for the latter group is that an issue, and that has more to do with their own personal inclinations and prerogatives than anything inherent to Wizard's recently adopted business model. If you really feel pressured to choose between your girlfriend and card stock, you might want re-think the nature of your relationship... or maybe she's the one who needs to do the re-thinking.
----------------------------------------------- rxphantom asked: High fives for Secret Lair! My local game store, like most, was frankly doing too well, making too much money, and needed to be knocked down a peg.
First off, you have a valid question “Why can’t you run Secret Lair through local game stores?” Framing it as a passive-aggressive snide response adds an unnecessary tone to the post and most of the time will keep people from answering your question. When seeking answers, be polite. Quite often, as you’ll see with this answer, there are reasons you might be unaware of.
So why don’t we run Secret Lair through local game stores? The short answer is we can’t logistically, at least not without drastically raising the price and taking significantly longer to get the product to you.
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
Local game stores are very important to us and we’re making more products than ever sold through local game stores, but not every product works cleanly through them, Secret Lair being a good example. It’s just logistically and financially unviable.
------------------------------------------------
I don't get why shipping these Secret Lair cards to LGS costs more; they could be included with other releases like Ikoria, for example. It sounds a bit bogus to me, but it might be true. Who knows?
Because this lets the scoot around many of the things they dislike.
These things being the following. Certain specialty products sitting on the shelf at some LGS, gathering dust, as nobody wants it really after the initial hype. Then you got buyer's guides coming out telling you if it should be bought or not, as they talk about things like the quality of the card stock or if the foiling was bad. Then there is the extra payment on the overhead for storing these products in some warehouse because they made more than was needed.
Buyer's guides can't be truthfully made if the product is always on limited-time offer, as they can't tell you if the card stock got better or if the foiling process improved, they can only make assumptions. The company doesn't need to pay a fee for warehouses if they only met the demand within that limited window. Products won't sit on some shelf unless a LGS owner bought as much as they could.
These are offers done in the same way as mobile games would do, attached image for an example. As they put it as this special thing up for a limited amount of time. It targets your impulse buying, your feeling of missing out. And the artwork is deliberately done to appeal to as many different demographics as possible, including children with an easy potshot example being <explosion sounds> that looks like it was ripped from one of the Clash Royal / Clash of Clans games.
The product's marketing and accessibility is very manipulative. Just take the upcoming one for example. So far these have been based on holidays in some manner. So the next one out in a few days is Valentine's Day themed. And its specifically launching on that day no less. So now you got to make a decision if you do have a significant other, how much do you save for the secret lair and how much do you spend on them? Five lairs can be around $150-$200. The only people who don't have to make this decision are those not currently in a relationship.
Then there is the lie that Mark Rosewater states about having to raise the price and that it would take longer. The increased cost is just a multiplier for how much cash they can grab. They sold Planeswalker Decks which is packaging + 60 cards. These lairs are just packing + 3-8 cards. At most the packaging might cost them a bit more. Yet when done in large runs, like in the hundred thousands, its cheap. Its only expensive if they made a few.
If that all disgusts you, good, you should feel disgusted.
And if I'm not disgusted, how should I feel then? Your underlying premise is that, for whichever demographic Wizards is targeting, these are must-haves in their entirety. I fundamentally disagree with that premise; for most players these hold no interest, a few players will want some of them, and a scant few will feel the need to own them all. Only for the latter group is that an issue, and that has more to do with their own personal inclinations and prerogatives than anything inherent to Wizard's recently adopted business model. If you really feel pressured to choose between your girlfriend and card stock, you might want re-think the nature of your relationship... or maybe she's the one who needs to do the re-thinking.
Relationships aside, there is a demographic everyone is forgetting. There are people who want it/them but didn't budget for it. For instance, my budgets span a full month. By the time the first rolls around, I have my budget set up for the entire month. This also includes my "mad" cash for things like Magic cards, vacations, etc. For many others, this cycle is usually two weeks or even weekly. But regardless of the budget window, the end result is that larger purchases are planned for in advance. Unlike some people, I'm not wealthy enough yet to buy that house in Beverly Hills on a whim.
For new (normal release) sets, this is easy. They're months ahead and already worked into the budget.
The announcement of this (and the previous) Secret Lair is so short that I'm sure a good percentage of people can't budget for it even if they want it. And the idea of paying 50% mark up or more is certainly unsavory for all but the most avid collectors.
And please keep in mind I'm not talking about people who can't afford it. I'm talking about the responsible people. I'm not dropping $200 without more time and information about what I'm buying.
Your underlying premise is that, for whichever demographic Wizards is targeting, these are must-haves in their entirety.
Thats because they aren't but are marketed and presented as such. You don't have a notice of three months in advance to make a smart purchase, you have hours to make that decision.
fundamentally disagree with that premise; for most players these hold no interest, a few players will want some of them, and a scant few will feel the need to own them all. Only for the latter group is that an issue, and that has more to do with their own personal inclinations and prerogatives than anything inherent to Wizard's recently adopted business model.
So you are defending secret lairs?
If you really feel pressured to choose between your girlfriend and card stock, you might want re-think the nature of your relationship... or maybe she's the one who needs to do the re-thinking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
Local game stores are very important to us and we’re making more products than ever sold through local game stores, but not every product works cleanly through them, Secret Lair being a good example. It’s just logistically and financially unviable.
I agree the traditional model of semi-predictable booster boxes / etc won't work with LGS stores on print-to-order. But who says we have to use a traditional model? This isn't the only industry challenged with this lately. Recent online ordering from retailers like Target/Walmart/HomeDepot are adapting where you can order inventory online and schedule it for pickup at a local location where it is not already in stock. It provides the best of online (per-buyer) ordering and retail pick-up without the messy retailer guess-logic on inventory management.
Imagine for a second LGSs were treated as Secret Lair distribution centers, and when ordering you could select an approved LGS of your choice, potentially with a perk for doing so like reduced cost, a promo planeswalker, etc. The LGS gets a bulk shipment representing actual orders, and buyers have a reason to give them some foot traffic. I would personally use this option if it was available, because it gives me the flexibility of dropping by the store when it works for me, rather than worrying about not being home with an expensive package shows up.
Wizards could give a small kickback to the store for the saved bulk shipping cost. Just a thought!
Given the recent barrage of monthly products, I would actually say that's a fair point. I'm not any more used to this pace of release than you are, but if something important to me started occurring more frequently (or got more expensive), then I'd either have to adjust my budget or - if it suddenly moved beyond my means - leave it behind entirely. That's the reality we face as adults, whatever our respective income levels may be.
It’s not necessary to have. Secret Lair benefits those who want it and is neutral for those who do not. Just as Un-sets are. The only issue I see here is more announcing of announcements, not revealing the content ahead of time, and there simply being a lot going on at once. None of which warrant pages of ranting.
I sell product to people that make responsible decisions.
Not everyone has to be shady and piss on customers to make a living.
Selling candy flavored vape to children is a shady business practice. This is basic marketing, and adults with a paycheck and a degree of restraint should know better.
Lots of condescension here, most of it unnecessary.
As a professor at a business college, OnlyOne has a greater portion of correctness.
It is not basic marketing to use predatory business practices, and blind flash sales certainly are. It is not that good products sell on their own and bad products require predatory practices. Good and bad products benefit from predatory practices. Which is why there is a place, even in capitalist economic systems, for regulation. Companies who use practices like this invite their customers to leave, or failing that, for the industry to be regulated. It is then up to the business to decide if the profits gained by the predatory practices (certainty) are worth the (probability-based) risk of loss of customer loss and regulation imposition.
However, MaRo continues to be....a piece of work.
customer says: Why do you sell apples? Selling apples has negative consequences.
MaRo says: Don't ask the question in a rude manner. You don't know how apples work. Selling apples requires we do it this way. We sell other fruit too.
Response: yeah...but you (MaRo) didn't answer the question. You stated that you know that selling apples in the way you do has the negative consequences that the customer stated. And you're defending selling apples, tacitly acknowledging the harm and claiming to care about the factor you're harming. The customer knew this would be your dismissive response...that is why they were rude in the first place.
Edit: FYI, I bought one Secret Lair. I plan to ignore all of them outside a very narrow preference set. They are with certainty problematic, but simultaneously not a tremendous level of bad business practices over what they were already doing. That Secret Lair also constitutes the only money I've directly given to WotC for magic cards since 2007 other than about 2 prereleases a year, because I don't like their business practices. So...nuance.
Certainly no more necessary than a classy rant about being pissed on. Next time I'll be sure to match the decorum of my conversational partner(s).
Could you unpack for me the blind part of 'blind flash sales'? I wouldn't mind a professional primer on predatory practices while you're at it, but I'll settle for a quick Google search.
I'm just here wondering what exactly anyone thinks they can do about it. If you don't want to eliminate the profit motive that incentivizes companies to make these things, we're just going to see more of them. Consumer boycotts don't work. Whining on mtg salvation dot com definitely doesn't work. Even just not buying magic cards probably won't work because it's not really customer feedback. Spamming maro doesn't work because the dude knows his audience isn't really representative of 90% of the people who play this game but moreover it's not his decision.
Have you considered pushing for, maybe like a law against "surprise" products? It worked pretty well for the EU with regard to loot boxes.
Also the whole "it hurts lgs" is a nonstarter bc lgs are just as free to buy the products and sell them at a markup, which they do.
Your underlying premise is that, for whichever demographic Wizards is targeting, these are must-haves in their entirety.
Thats because they aren't but are marketed and presented as such. You don't have a notice of three months in advance to make a smart purchase, you have hours to make that decision.
fundamentally disagree with that premise; for most players these hold no interest, a few players will want some of them, and a scant few will feel the need to own them all. Only for the latter group is that an issue, and that has more to do with their own personal inclinations and prerogatives than anything inherent to Wizard's recently adopted business model.
So you are defending secret lairs?
If you really feel pressured to choose between your girlfriend and card stock, you might want re-think the nature of your relationship... or maybe she's the one who needs to do the re-thinking.
I appear to have missed this post yesterday. Sorry.
Can we pretend, for a moment, that there's some degree of correlation between investment/interest in Magic and forethought or preparedness when it comes to future purchases? I, for instance, have a running spreadsheet on Google docs to track all of my must-haves from past or upcoming sets. My current level of interest in actually making purchases or playing the game is middling, but I've been playing Magic since the late 90's so my overall investment is pretty high, and I manage my collection accordingly. To date, I have not purchased a single Secret Lair, but I'm optimistic at the prospect. What that means - or what I think that means - is that I have a pretty good idea of what reprints I might want to buy months in advance, regardless of where they come from or how much notice I get. How is it, then, that others here with a similar or higher level of interest (I'm not dropping $200+ on alternate art cards) seem to be having such a hard time with an hours long purchase window? How much advance notice is reasonable for a person with the disposable income to afford foiled cardboard?
And no, I'm not defending Wizards; they certainly don't need my help, of all people. But I do like to point out the entitled behavior of my fellow consumers from time to time.
Yeah I don’t get all this lgs junk. Wizards doesn’t exist to help your local game store. They exist to make money. Quit crying about lgs not making 2-3$ per box they’d sell. Tell them to run more events and sell more snacks... news flash, lgs don’t make money off product...
Then there is the lie that Mark Rosewater states about having to raise the price and that it would take longer. The increased cost is just a multiplier for how much cash they can grab. They sold Planeswalker Decks which is packaging + 60 cards. These lairs are just packing + 3-8 cards. At most the packaging might cost them a bit more. Yet when done in large runs, like in the hundred thousands, its cheap. Its only expensive if they made a few.
That's not a lie. Consider if they needed to print enough of the product to make it some of available to every LGS - Unit cost would be the same, but manufacturing time would be longer so there would be more stock needing to sit in warehouses until all the product was ready to be delivered. Then, they'd be selling as a wholesaler which means either they make smaller profit off the stores or the stores make no profit off selling to the consumers. Since the product then would not be print-to-demand, they have to guess how much product people will want to buy or either they or the LGSs will end up with product sitting in inventory which is never good for a business. Secret Lairs would end u the same as From the Vault; either (a) inflatedly over priced by LGSs or (b) sitting on shelves.
Yeah I don’t get the complaints, because lgs always hiked ftv absurdly. I’d rather choose what I want for 30-40$ instead of buying ftv angels for 70$....
WotC, sell me a playset of Oubliette for $19.99 and I may bite. If not, keep your overpriced crap, I'm not buying.
Easy as that.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Personally, I might buy if they release a special art for defense of the heart on Valentine’s Day... or if they’re daring enough to do an Earthbind reprint with (slightly) tamer art.
while I don’t like how this was done, after all, I still have my own tastes.
Oh for peak sake guys if you don’t like it just don’t look into these and just move on
I only get cards or things based on what’s in it and you can just get singles as well
According to some who have already responded in this thread will have you believe, you’re part of the problem too if you think this way.
Everyone here is negative on everything that comes out
It happens all the dang time especially whenever final dumps happen on sets positive talk on rares and mythics goes from love to hate On a set watch it happen with ikoria and when the decklist of commander 2020 comes out that day
And no I’m not part of the problem the only secret lair I got was kildescope killers and that’s the only good one so far (yes aware that cards drastically lost value) I got it because I love ur alt art since I play all 3 of those legends
But not that it matters you can get the cards as singles
Quit crying about lgs not making 2-3$ per box they’d sell. Tell them to run more events and sell more snacks... news flash, lgs don’t make money off product...
You have no idea what you're talking about.
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-----------------------------------------------
rxphantom asked: High fives for Secret Lair! My local game store, like most, was frankly doing too well, making too much money, and needed to be knocked down a peg.
First off, you have a valid question “Why can’t you run Secret Lair through local game stores?” Framing it as a passive-aggressive snide response adds an unnecessary tone to the post and most of the time will keep people from answering your question. When seeking answers, be polite. Quite often, as you’ll see with this answer, there are reasons you might be unaware of.
So why don’t we run Secret Lair through local game stores? The short answer is we can’t logistically, at least not without drastically raising the price and taking significantly longer to get the product to you.
Secret Lair is what is known as a “short window print to order” product. It requires having a single uniform ordering point, otherwise there’s no way to monitor the time cut-off. Also, with print to order, you want a single uniform shipping point. In addition, we want the product to get to as many players as possible (and yes, we’re working on the global reach issues) and many players do not have easy access to a local game store.
Local game stores are very important to us and we’re making more products than ever sold through local game stores, but not every product works cleanly through them, Secret Lair being a good example. It’s just logistically and financially unviable.
------------------------------------------------
I don't get why shipping these Secret Lair cards to LGS costs more; they could be included with other releases like Ikoria, for example. It sounds a bit bogus to me, but it might be true. Who knows?
Selling candy flavored vape to children is a shady business practice. This is basic marketing, and adults with a paycheck and a degree of restraint should know better.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
I mean, if you want to produce a product only for the people who pre-order it, it doesn't make much sense to add a middleman who then ships it to you. If you want to sell something with a limited window to order, it also doesn't make sense to do it through an lgs since they have to reply back with signups somehow and coordinate orders. You could try, but it's just not going to work as well as direct sales.
If you're thinking of it more like a from the vault type situation, then that removes the whole limited window, secret revealed shortly before, bespoke nature of the product.
These things being the following. Certain specialty products sitting on the shelf at some LGS, gathering dust, as nobody wants it really after the initial hype. Then you got buyer's guides coming out telling you if it should be bought or not, as they talk about things like the quality of the card stock or if the foiling was bad. Then there is the extra payment on the overhead for storing these products in some warehouse because they made more than was needed.
Buyer's guides can't be truthfully made if the product is always on limited-time offer, as they can't tell you if the card stock got better or if the foiling process improved, they can only make assumptions. The company doesn't need to pay a fee for warehouses if they only met the demand within that limited window. Products won't sit on some shelf unless a LGS owner bought as much as they could.
These are offers done in the same way as mobile games would do, attached image for an example. As they put it as this special thing up for a limited amount of time. It targets your impulse buying, your feeling of missing out. And the artwork is deliberately done to appeal to as many different demographics as possible, including children with an easy potshot example being <explosion sounds> that looks like it was ripped from one of the Clash Royal / Clash of Clans games.
The product's marketing and accessibility is very manipulative. Just take the upcoming one for example. So far these have been based on holidays in some manner. So the next one out in a few days is Valentine's Day themed. And its specifically launching on that day no less. So now you got to make a decision if you do have a significant other, how much do you save for the secret lair and how much do you spend on them? Five lairs can be around $150-$200. The only people who don't have to make this decision are those not currently in a relationship.
Then there is the lie that Mark Rosewater states about having to raise the price and that it would take longer. The increased cost is just a multiplier for how much cash they can grab. They sold Planeswalker Decks which is packaging + 60 cards. These lairs are just packing + 3-8 cards. At most the packaging might cost them a bit more. Yet when done in large runs, like in the hundred thousands, its cheap. Its only expensive if they made a few.
If that all disgusts you, good, you should feel disgusted.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
And if I'm not disgusted, how should I feel then? Your underlying premise is that, for whichever demographic Wizards is targeting, these are must-haves in their entirety. I fundamentally disagree with that premise; for most players these hold no interest, a few players will want some of them, and a scant few will feel the need to own them all. Only for the latter group is that an issue, and that has more to do with their own personal inclinations and prerogatives than anything inherent to Wizard's recently adopted business model. If you really feel pressured to choose between your girlfriend and card stock, you might want re-think the nature of your relationship... or maybe she's the one who needs to do the re-thinking.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Relationships aside, there is a demographic everyone is forgetting. There are people who want it/them but didn't budget for it. For instance, my budgets span a full month. By the time the first rolls around, I have my budget set up for the entire month. This also includes my "mad" cash for things like Magic cards, vacations, etc. For many others, this cycle is usually two weeks or even weekly. But regardless of the budget window, the end result is that larger purchases are planned for in advance. Unlike some people, I'm not wealthy enough yet to buy that house in Beverly Hills on a whim.
For new (normal release) sets, this is easy. They're months ahead and already worked into the budget.
The announcement of this (and the previous) Secret Lair is so short that I'm sure a good percentage of people can't budget for it even if they want it. And the idea of paying 50% mark up or more is certainly unsavory for all but the most avid collectors.
And please keep in mind I'm not talking about people who can't afford it. I'm talking about the responsible people. I'm not dropping $200 without more time and information about what I'm buying.
Thats because they aren't but are marketed and presented as such. You don't have a notice of three months in advance to make a smart purchase, you have hours to make that decision.
So you are defending secret lairs?
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
I agree the traditional model of semi-predictable booster boxes / etc won't work with LGS stores on print-to-order. But who says we have to use a traditional model? This isn't the only industry challenged with this lately. Recent online ordering from retailers like Target/Walmart/HomeDepot are adapting where you can order inventory online and schedule it for pickup at a local location where it is not already in stock. It provides the best of online (per-buyer) ordering and retail pick-up without the messy retailer guess-logic on inventory management.
Imagine for a second LGSs were treated as Secret Lair distribution centers, and when ordering you could select an approved LGS of your choice, potentially with a perk for doing so like reduced cost, a promo planeswalker, etc. The LGS gets a bulk shipment representing actual orders, and buyers have a reason to give them some foot traffic. I would personally use this option if it was available, because it gives me the flexibility of dropping by the store when it works for me, rather than worrying about not being home with an expensive package shows up.
Wizards could give a small kickback to the store for the saved bulk shipping cost. Just a thought!
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Lots of condescension here, most of it unnecessary.
As a professor at a business college, OnlyOne has a greater portion of correctness.
It is not basic marketing to use predatory business practices, and blind flash sales certainly are. It is not that good products sell on their own and bad products require predatory practices. Good and bad products benefit from predatory practices. Which is why there is a place, even in capitalist economic systems, for regulation. Companies who use practices like this invite their customers to leave, or failing that, for the industry to be regulated. It is then up to the business to decide if the profits gained by the predatory practices (certainty) are worth the (probability-based) risk of loss of customer loss and regulation imposition.
However, MaRo continues to be....a piece of work.
customer says: Why do you sell apples? Selling apples has negative consequences.
MaRo says: Don't ask the question in a rude manner. You don't know how apples work. Selling apples requires we do it this way. We sell other fruit too.
Response: yeah...but you (MaRo) didn't answer the question. You stated that you know that selling apples in the way you do has the negative consequences that the customer stated. And you're defending selling apples, tacitly acknowledging the harm and claiming to care about the factor you're harming. The customer knew this would be your dismissive response...that is why they were rude in the first place.
Edit: FYI, I bought one Secret Lair. I plan to ignore all of them outside a very narrow preference set. They are with certainty problematic, but simultaneously not a tremendous level of bad business practices over what they were already doing. That Secret Lair also constitutes the only money I've directly given to WotC for magic cards since 2007 other than about 2 prereleases a year, because I don't like their business practices. So...nuance.
Could you unpack for me the blind part of 'blind flash sales'? I wouldn't mind a professional primer on predatory practices while you're at it, but I'll settle for a quick Google search.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Have you considered pushing for, maybe like a law against "surprise" products? It worked pretty well for the EU with regard to loot boxes.
Also the whole "it hurts lgs" is a nonstarter bc lgs are just as free to buy the products and sell them at a markup, which they do.
I appear to have missed this post yesterday. Sorry.
Can we pretend, for a moment, that there's some degree of correlation between investment/interest in Magic and forethought or preparedness when it comes to future purchases? I, for instance, have a running spreadsheet on Google docs to track all of my must-haves from past or upcoming sets. My current level of interest in actually making purchases or playing the game is middling, but I've been playing Magic since the late 90's so my overall investment is pretty high, and I manage my collection accordingly. To date, I have not purchased a single Secret Lair, but I'm optimistic at the prospect. What that means - or what I think that means - is that I have a pretty good idea of what reprints I might want to buy months in advance, regardless of where they come from or how much notice I get. How is it, then, that others here with a similar or higher level of interest (I'm not dropping $200+ on alternate art cards) seem to be having such a hard time with an hours long purchase window? How much advance notice is reasonable for a person with the disposable income to afford foiled cardboard?
And no, I'm not defending Wizards; they certainly don't need my help, of all people. But I do like to point out the entitled behavior of my fellow consumers from time to time.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
That's not a lie. Consider if they needed to print enough of the product to make it some of available to every LGS - Unit cost would be the same, but manufacturing time would be longer so there would be more stock needing to sit in warehouses until all the product was ready to be delivered. Then, they'd be selling as a wholesaler which means either they make smaller profit off the stores or the stores make no profit off selling to the consumers. Since the product then would not be print-to-demand, they have to guess how much product people will want to buy or either they or the LGSs will end up with product sitting in inventory which is never good for a business. Secret Lairs would end u the same as From the Vault; either (a) inflatedly over priced by LGSs or (b) sitting on shelves.
Easy as that.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
while I don’t like how this was done, after all, I still have my own tastes.
Everyone here is negative on everything that comes out
It happens all the dang time especially whenever final dumps happen on sets positive talk on rares and mythics goes from love to hate On a set watch it happen with ikoria and when the decklist of commander 2020 comes out that day
And no I’m not part of the problem the only secret lair I got was kildescope killers and that’s the only good one so far (yes aware that cards drastically lost value) I got it because I love ur alt art since I play all 3 of those legends
But not that it matters you can get the cards as singles
You have no idea what you're talking about.