That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure.
This is exactly how I have felt for a while now. I've always been a big flavour/story guy, not just in Magic but in general. And I would love to be able to be invested in Magic story, but over recent years they've made it completely impossible to do so.
That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure.
This is exactly how I have felt for a while now. I've always been a big flavour/story guy, not just in Magic but in general. And I would love to be able to be invested in Magic story, but over recent years they've made it completely impossible to do so.
I mean, nothing is stopping you from making your own content related to it. If you aren't getting enough of a media there are other options than stop liking it.
That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure.
This is exactly how I have felt for a while now. I've always been a big flavour/story guy, not just in Magic but in general. And I would love to be able to be invested in Magic story, but over recent years they've made it completely impossible to do so.
Sheep using hunger to justify the wolf’s behavior.
Corporate greed should never be an excuse to compromise customer loyalty and enfranchisement. “That’s just the way it is” or “that’s how we’ve always done it” are dangerous suggestions. If corporate demand strained creative to outsource its material, as I suspect, utilizing them for product development over investment into the brand (lore) to the point that Theros was compromised, then there’s a lot more at stake for them in the long term.
“It’s a card game” from people taking time to post on this forum is rich irony. There is no “it’s fiction” or “it’s a game.” There is only passion.
That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure.
Wouldn't fault either of you for wanting to stop. 2019 has been a rough year for many aspects of magic. Last real interest for me is just from Commander Legends in 2020, and that is all the way in 4th quarter of next year. I could personally care less about Ikoria or Zendikar Rising. Theros is probably the last set I'm going to pick-up for awhile.
That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure.
This is exactly how I have felt for a while now. I've always been a big flavour/story guy, not just in Magic but in general. And I would love to be able to be invested in Magic story, but over recent years they've made it completely impossible to do so.
I mean, nothing is stopping you from making your own content related to it. If you aren't getting enough of a media there are other options than stop liking it.
I'm still invested in the game in other ways. I like custom card design, for one. And I still attend prereleases. I'm just frustrated that one of my favourite aspects of the game - one of my favourite things in general - has been set on copious amounts of fire lately.
I'd agree that it's important to understand WotC's point of view, but my concern is that this extends too much into making excuses for them.
It's not making excuses. It's just explaining something that already happened in the past. It's not the first time they discontinue the novels. In the end they always came back.
Wouldn't fault either of you for wanting to stop. 2019 has been a rough year for many aspects of magic.
Honestly 2019 was a terrible year for mtg customers, it set up a lot of potentially dangerous things: mtg arena becoming more popular than paper; too much exclusive cards like bab, brawl precon ones and so on; broken cards that were banned in multiple formats; the aknowledging of the secondary market with secret lair... yup, dangerous territory ahead
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Sheep using hunger to justify the wolf’s behavior.
Corporate greed should never be an excuse to compromise customer loyalty and enfranchisement. “That’s just the way it is” or “that’s how we’ve always done it” are dangerous suggestions. If corporate demand strained creative to outsource its material, as I suspect, utilizing them for product development over investment into the brand (lore) to the point that Theros was compromised, then there’s a lot more at stake for them in the long term.
No one's excusing anything, simply correctly identifying the reality of the situation. WotC either doesn't see this move as significantly risky to customer loyalty or enfranchisement or they saw the recent past as just a larger risk to continue. Being salty about your passion not yielding the results you wanted in the face of corporate behavior is a realistic reaction, and I sympathize to an extent. I guess I've just been involved with the game long enough to understand that the creative products were only ever in service to card sales and they will end creative initiatives immediately if they fear they aren't effective for selling more of the primary products. You aren't the first person I've seen burned by a business move like this, sadly I doubt you'll be the last because creative will never be treated like an end unto itself, the status quo is that it's a means to a different end. Fans think it's for them, but that's sadly not how the business sees it. It's an expendable component of the business model.
I'd agree that it's important to understand WotC's point of view, but my concern is that this extends too much into making excuses for them.
It's not making excuses. It's just explaining something that already happened in the past. It's not the first time they discontinue the novels. In the end they always came back.
You have absolutely been making excuses for that decision in this thread. I don't even know what point you possibly think you could be making by denying it. Perhaps you're just a compulsive liar? I don't appreciate your dishonesty.
Additionally, you're really taking for granted that if you do nothing you'll eventually get your Vorthos itch scratched again. Therefore, everyone else should stop complaining. I find this attitude counterproductive.
Here's what it boils down to. Is WotC's reaction understandable, if unfortunate for those of us who were looking forward to Theros? Yes, it is. But if we were to just shut up and silently accept it, what does that show them? "Oh, we don't actually need to worry about story, because no one actually cares/everyone will just take whatever half-baked garbage we give them". If we don't want this to be the standard, then we need them to know we don't like it, however understandable the reason for it this time may be.
Is whinging on a forum going to do that? Hell no. But the whole purpose of a forum is to discuss thoughts and opinions, and that's exactly what we're doing.
You have absolutely been making excuses for that decision in this thread. I don't even know what point you possibly think you could be making by denying it. Perhaps you're just a compulsive liar? I don't appreciate your dishonesty.
No one's excusing anything, simply correctly identifying the reality of the situation.
This guy gets it
You can go ahead and cry like a little baby as much as you want. If you think this is what will help the Vorthos community, go ahead.
However don't get angry when other people are a little more mature.
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
You have absolutely been making excuses for that decision in this thread. I don't even know what point you possibly think you could be making by denying it. Perhaps you're just a compulsive liar? I don't appreciate your dishonesty.
No one's excusing anything, simply correctly identifying the reality of the situation.
This guy gets it
You can go ahead and cry like a little baby as much as you want. If you think this is what will help the Vorthos community, go ahead.
However don't get angry when other people are a little more mature.
You are both mistaken. You're not being purely descriptive; your posts also have normative content. The fact that you don't recognize that at best reflects on your muddy and lazy thinking.
And calling me a crybaby of all things just serves to prove me right about what you're saying. So thanks for making my argument for me.
This casual disregard for lore in recent times, both in terms of poor content and no content, is not how things should be.
Accepting the reality of how things are and how things have been is foolish. Denying reality is counter-productive.
The fact that I accept reality does not mean that I should be happy about that reality or that I should stop expressing my displeasure.
The fact that I acknowledge reality does not negate the second truth that silent and sober acknowledgment of that truth and cessation of complaint detracts from any backlash that could inspire change and may feed into a perception that the decision itself is accepted and acceptable.
I realize that a non-stop complaint train we have no ability to fix may grind the nerves of some people. I further realize that wizards likely isn't checking this specific thread to gauge the attitude of the community.
With that said, I believe that some marginal value exists in maintaining a consistent discontent that opposes the status quo instead of simply riding the wave to see what happens. Doing so will not stop me from moving on in my life or from also making more impactful actions (such as "voting with my wallet").
You are both mistaken. You're not being purely descriptive; your posts also have normative content. The fact that you don't recognize that at best reflects on your muddy and lazy thinking.
You are both mistaken. You're not being purely descriptive; your posts also have normative content. The fact that you don't recognize that at best reflects on your muddy and lazy thinking.
I'm not sure I understand.
Is that irony?
I realize I'm getting a bit incensed. While I have been trying to make a case for supporting the lore here, what really angers me is not that I'm not getting a novel that I'd 50% not read anyway. It's the denial of the implicit positions that pragmatism commits the pragmatist to. Which is I guess a bizarre and abstract reason to get pissed off, but we all have our pet peeves.
You are both mistaken. You're not being purely descriptive; your posts also have normative content. The fact that you don't recognize that at best reflects on your muddy and lazy thinking.
I'm not sure I understand.
Is that irony?
Not intentionally, at least. I don't understand the point you were making.
I realize I'm getting a bit incensed. While I have been trying to make a case for supporting the lore here, what really angers me is not that I'm not getting a novel that I'd 50% not read anyway. It's the denial of the implicit positions that pragmatism commits the pragmatist to. Which is I guess a bizarre and abstract reason to get pissed off, but we all have our pet peeves.
Yes it probably is, I'll admit I don't get the reason for the anger, but I apologize if I contributed to it nonetheless.
While I believe lore is important, I'm not really a Vorthos. I'm a goddamn Melvin. And if I can find more passion in my cold little Melvin heart for the lore than a self-proclaimed Vorthos, something profoundly wrong has gone with the world.
MikeyG, although we have points of disagreement you have been impeccably respectful about them.
What I find troublesome is this complacent attitude of just accepting things as they are and not being vocal. These are a lot of the same people that were telling me Arixmethes and Callaphe were just minor characters WOtC could care less about making into cards when I was vocal about that. Sorry, but I don’t sit back and allow things to happen. I’m taking charge of the feedback and mobilizing the community to react. If you’re not interested in the discussion, that’s your choice. But I’m not about to let some CEO look at high Theros sales and conclude that blocks with no novels sell better.
While I believe lore is important, I'm not really a Vorthos. I'm a goddamn Melvin. And if I can find more passion in my cold little Melvin heart for the lore than a self-proclaimed Vorthos, something profoundly wrong has gone with the world.
Well, as much as I'd love to embark upon a rant about capitalism and its impacts on people and society, but I feel that'd be rather afield from Theros.
MikeyG, although we have points of disagreement you have been impeccably respectful about them.
Thank you, though it saddens me that that's remarkable. Disagreements over a thing like this are no reason to become disrespectful.
It's also ironic, given what a hardass I used to be around here. Pretty sure I scared off a lot of folks back in the day, and when I posted a fake resignation from the staff for April Fools Day more than a few celebrated for that reason. Growing up mellows one out, it seems.
What I find troublesome is this complacent attitude of just accepting things as they are and not being vocal.
Describing things as they are ought not imply that being vocal is futile. In fact, understanding the reality of things as they stand is the critical first step in any successful push to change them.
These are a lot of the same people that were telling me Arixmethes and Callaphe were just minor characters WOtC could care less about making into cards when I was vocal about that. Sorry, but I don’t sit back and allow things to happen. I’m taking charge of the feedback and mobilizing the community to react.
And therein lies the problem: don't react, respond.
Understand how and why WotC perceives fan outrage as they do. Corporate entities rarely have a nuanced view of fan displeasure and if you're only reacting, it all just becomes noise to them. A Cacophony, which is thematically appropriate. The lesson they learned from the Weisman blowback wasn't "you need more care for quality", it was "your marketing tool is potentially counterproductive" and they responded in a fairly predictable way. If you're embarking on a campaign of community organization, noise alone will get you attention, but it doesn't always clearly communicate why you're displeased or what you believe the solution to be.
I'm not saying you should say nothing or do nothing, I'm saying understand the lay of the land so whatever strategy you employ is informed and hopefully more effective.
If you’re not interested in the discussion, that’s your choice. But I’m not about to let some CEO look at high Theros sales and conclude that blocks with no novels sell better.
Is that the conclusion? I don't think it is, but let's play it out. How would you change that CEO's mind and what would you want to change it to?
I asked people to send emails and contact Maro on blogatog already. Because I’m only one person and no one is responding. Many have taken to Twitter. Please don’t lecture me about responding, I’m the one that got Arixmethes and Callaphe onto cards doing this.
While I have been trying to make a case for supporting the lore here, what really angers me is not that I'm not getting a novel that I'd 50% not read anyway.
Honestly this is what i don't get about your position. It sounds so nice but theorical. In practice things are really different. Wotc will see people complaining but not buying and they will say "screw this, we are out". I bet that 50% or even more of the people who complained about forsaken didn't even buy the book.
wotc salesmen are going to see these numbers and cancel it. You would do the same if it was your company. You think they should keep the novels going just to make you happy, even if you don't want to buy them?
What I find troublesome is this complacent attitude of just accepting things as they are and not being vocal.
Just because i don't want to *****storm wotc social media it doesn't mean i'm not angry or i have accepted this. But if you think that being vocal will bring you somewhere, good luck. Being vocal in the wrong was what bring us in this situation in the first place.
Try to be constructive instead.
I'm sorry you won't get the theros novel. You'll never will. You are unlucky that theros was almost right after that disaster of Forsaken a paid for that, even if it wasn't guilty.
I hope that novels, or short stories, or whatever they will decide to use to spread some lore will return. Like i said, they always did. Slowly, but they did. This community has many good vorthos and some of them are inside wotc. It will get some time to get the businessmen trust again, but it can happen.
But if you think that constant furious *****ing on social medias will get your theros story to be released and novels to be funded again in a month, sorry, it won't happen. It will actually have a detrimental effect.
You can get angry at me for being a pragmatist, sorry, but it's just the way i am.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
This may sound a bit callous, but be glad the game is alive at all and whatever lore and cards you get is the cherry on top. My favorite tcg died, came back to life, then died again, and its not coming back a third time. The story, characters, and lore I did get I will always cherish. Its why seeing Dalakos, Crafter of Wonders in this new Theros set actually renewed my interest in MTG as I made a custom card two years ago that was remarkably similar to it. That the custom card's flavor and theme was based off of a character from that dead tcg.
I asked people to send emails and contact Maro on blogatog already. Because I’m only one person and no one is responding. Many have taken to Twitter.
What is your plan for mobilization?
Please don’t lecture me about responding, I’m the one that got Arixmethes and Callaphe onto cards doing this.
Wonderful, that is an accomplishment! And I truly do mean that. Presumably that was accomplished through more than just making noise, which is my point. Particularly since there is a sizeable difference between petitioning to get a character made into a card and attempting to push a corporation to release lore content for Theros. Getting a beloved character on a card requires little to no additional financial commitment, what I presume you're looking for now absolutely does.
ilovesaprolings is correct, social media uproar alone isn't going to get the Theros lore content released, and that uproar could in fact have detrimental consequences. I want you to see success in your mission, but I am not confident that passion and pluck are going to carry you to victory. So perhaps instead of getting snippy with people who want you to succeed, you lean on the community to help you strategize, organize, and actualize.
So again I will ask: what is the change you want to see and how to you plan to achieve that? What tools do you see as being at your disposal? What resources exist in the community that will help you reach your goal? What people are in the community that would be potent allies?
While I have been trying to make a case for supporting the lore here, what really angers me is not that I'm not getting a novel that I'd 50% not read anyway.
Honestly this is what i don't get about your position. It sounds so nice but theorical. In practice things are really different. Wotc will see people complaining but not buying and they will say "screw this, we are out". I bet that 50% or even more of the people who complained about forsaken didn't even buy the book.
wotc salesmen are going to see these numbers and cancel it. You would do the same if it was your company. You think they should keep the novels going just to make you happy, even if you don't want to buy them?
Well, to use a theorical cliché: it's the principle of the thing!
I want them to write good novels. If they did, I might lean more into the Vorthos category. But the condition of the possibility for good novels is that there are, first, any novels.
I think you're right that, eventually, they will resume putting novels out. So the sky isn't falling. But it is a question of sooner rather than later. I think it's reasonable to conclude that giving voice to demand corresponds to a sooner response.
As you've noted, this whole process has happened before. And the lore for MTG has been suffering for a very, very long time. Meaning, MTG creative has been inconsistent in their output of a product, they've had to start and stop several times and still haven't fixed the problem. This kind of flailing indicates that they need some kind of input. So, following from that, we ought to be criticizing what they're getting wrong, to address the fundamental problems which haven't been fixed. In order to do that effectively and constructively, we need two things: to understand the problem as it actually is, as MikeyG states, and to engage in discourse which allows for this to be brought into greater clarity for all relevant parties (consumers and producers). The latter has been my focus as one of the pitfalls to this process are the discursive dead-ends that characterize a lot of threads here. In this case, an example could be something like "novels suck anyway, it's not worth discussing." I believe that if we do move forward in building more clarity, that has potential for being influential on discussions over a wider scope. In other words, we have to consciously choose to depart from the typical structure of these discussions, in which fans tend to cannibalize or invalidate one another, and instead do something like "build community." Easier said than done. My position is that we have to start from theory as a basis and incorporate practical considerations along the way.
It's true that if we go too far into purely destructive criticism, corporate could try to play it safe for longer, although there's a lot of potential for a negative feedback loop going that route. And if we shy away from criticism, we're guaranteed to get more of the same if not worse. So even if you don't personally share the same sentiments which, for example, Tiro has about Theros, it's possible to discuss the issue into a positive resolution. Everyone's passions vary, and people stating how they sincerely feel is actually foundational to maturity rather than disaffectation. That's what I feel is the remedy to "toxic fandom."
I agree with what you said, but as i said before, it's important to be constructive. Acting right now under extreme anger is not a good way.
Be constructive. First of all, share your vorthos passion with your friends, it may seem a little thing to do but you can always try to improve your community locally.
Second, use the social media constructively. Try to create hype about a set's lore, share stories or art, and so on. I just saw a post on reddit were someone made a custom satyr token to celebrate Theros. Create "vorthos stuff" and share it: this is a good way to help the cause. Big bad bussinessmen won't care about the emotion of a single one, but will be impressed by high numbers of sharing/views.
I wanted to do something similar for Ravnica, a plane i feel get lore butchered every time we visit it, but right now i don't have the means to do so.
Spamming maro inbox won't help very much. Sure, let him know the issue, but be respectful and don't insist too much. That man isn't responsible for novels and other similar things, so he can't actually reverse the decision. Still he is a man who cares about vorthos, he was a lore writer too, ii'm sure he will try to help.
Luckily 2020 may be a good for vorthos, regarding the cards. We will get commander legends, it will probably be the best vorthos set with a lot of major and minor lore characters. The vorthos community will be able to vote with its wallet.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
One thing I think to keep in mind is until we get more info we don't know why there is no ebook/web fiction, hell we don't even know if this a thing going forward. Not saying we can't be upset but we can't go off saying it was Kelmen, Wisemen, backlash over which ever novel or what simply since they didn't care enough to tell us whats going on. I guess I should clarify this isn't a excuse at giving our criticism but simple where to direct it until we know more.
Spamming maro inbox won't help very much. Sure, let him know the issue, but be respectful and don't insist too much. That man isn't responsible for novels and other similar things, so he can't actually reverse the decision. Still he is a man who cares about vorthos, he was a lore writer too, ii'm sure he will try to help.
Maro has offered many time to email him stuff about other departments and he would forward them to right people, heads up. Not the most effective way but is one way to reach out to show our displeasure.
On this note Maro is a spokes person and head of design not creative (or development or marketing). Until give the ok he won't publicly speak on the matter and people should be unset if he isn't answering simply since he might not be allowed to.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
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I mean, nothing is stopping you from making your own content related to it. If you aren't getting enough of a media there are other options than stop liking it.
It's not making excuses. It's just explaining something that already happened in the past. It's not the first time they discontinue the novels. In the end they always came back.
Eh, welcome to the real world where wolves eat sheeps daily.
Honestly 2019 was a terrible year for mtg customers, it set up a lot of potentially dangerous things: mtg arena becoming more popular than paper; too much exclusive cards like bab, brawl precon ones and so on; broken cards that were banned in multiple formats; the aknowledging of the secondary market with secret lair... yup, dangerous territory ahead
No one's excusing anything, simply correctly identifying the reality of the situation. WotC either doesn't see this move as significantly risky to customer loyalty or enfranchisement or they saw the recent past as just a larger risk to continue. Being salty about your passion not yielding the results you wanted in the face of corporate behavior is a realistic reaction, and I sympathize to an extent. I guess I've just been involved with the game long enough to understand that the creative products were only ever in service to card sales and they will end creative initiatives immediately if they fear they aren't effective for selling more of the primary products. You aren't the first person I've seen burned by a business move like this, sadly I doubt you'll be the last because creative will never be treated like an end unto itself, the status quo is that it's a means to a different end. Fans think it's for them, but that's sadly not how the business sees it. It's an expendable component of the business model.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
You have absolutely been making excuses for that decision in this thread. I don't even know what point you possibly think you could be making by denying it. Perhaps you're just a compulsive liar? I don't appreciate your dishonesty.
Additionally, you're really taking for granted that if you do nothing you'll eventually get your Vorthos itch scratched again. Therefore, everyone else should stop complaining. I find this attitude counterproductive.
Is whinging on a forum going to do that? Hell no. But the whole purpose of a forum is to discuss thoughts and opinions, and that's exactly what we're doing.
Sigh
This guy gets it
You can go ahead and cry like a little baby as much as you want. If you think this is what will help the Vorthos community, go ahead.
However don't get angry when other people are a little more mature.
You are both mistaken. You're not being purely descriptive; your posts also have normative content. The fact that you don't recognize that at best reflects on your muddy and lazy thinking.
And calling me a crybaby of all things just serves to prove me right about what you're saying. So thanks for making my argument for me.
Accepting the reality of how things are and how things have been is foolish. Denying reality is counter-productive.
The fact that I accept reality does not mean that I should be happy about that reality or that I should stop expressing my displeasure.
The fact that I acknowledge reality does not negate the second truth that silent and sober acknowledgment of that truth and cessation of complaint detracts from any backlash that could inspire change and may feed into a perception that the decision itself is accepted and acceptable.
I realize that a non-stop complaint train we have no ability to fix may grind the nerves of some people. I further realize that wizards likely isn't checking this specific thread to gauge the attitude of the community.
With that said, I believe that some marginal value exists in maintaining a consistent discontent that opposes the status quo instead of simply riding the wave to see what happens. Doing so will not stop me from moving on in my life or from also making more impactful actions (such as "voting with my wallet").
I'm not sure I understand.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Is that irony?
I realize I'm getting a bit incensed. While I have been trying to make a case for supporting the lore here, what really angers me is not that I'm not getting a novel that I'd 50% not read anyway. It's the denial of the implicit positions that pragmatism commits the pragmatist to. Which is I guess a bizarre and abstract reason to get pissed off, but we all have our pet peeves.
Not intentionally, at least. I don't understand the point you were making.
Yes it probably is, I'll admit I don't get the reason for the anger, but I apologize if I contributed to it nonetheless.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
MikeyG, although we have points of disagreement you have been impeccably respectful about them.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Well, as much as I'd love to embark upon a rant about capitalism and its impacts on people and society, but I feel that'd be rather afield from Theros.
Thank you, though it saddens me that that's remarkable. Disagreements over a thing like this are no reason to become disrespectful.
It's also ironic, given what a hardass I used to be around here. Pretty sure I scared off a lot of folks back in the day, and when I posted a fake resignation from the staff for April Fools Day more than a few celebrated for that reason. Growing up mellows one out, it seems.
Describing things as they are ought not imply that being vocal is futile. In fact, understanding the reality of things as they stand is the critical first step in any successful push to change them.
And therein lies the problem: don't react, respond.
Understand how and why WotC perceives fan outrage as they do. Corporate entities rarely have a nuanced view of fan displeasure and if you're only reacting, it all just becomes noise to them. A Cacophony, which is thematically appropriate. The lesson they learned from the Weisman blowback wasn't "you need more care for quality", it was "your marketing tool is potentially counterproductive" and they responded in a fairly predictable way. If you're embarking on a campaign of community organization, noise alone will get you attention, but it doesn't always clearly communicate why you're displeased or what you believe the solution to be.
I'm not saying you should say nothing or do nothing, I'm saying understand the lay of the land so whatever strategy you employ is informed and hopefully more effective.
Is that the conclusion? I don't think it is, but let's play it out. How would you change that CEO's mind and what would you want to change it to?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Honestly this is what i don't get about your position. It sounds so nice but theorical. In practice things are really different. Wotc will see people complaining but not buying and they will say "screw this, we are out". I bet that 50% or even more of the people who complained about forsaken didn't even buy the book.
wotc salesmen are going to see these numbers and cancel it. You would do the same if it was your company. You think they should keep the novels going just to make you happy, even if you don't want to buy them?
Just because i don't want to *****storm wotc social media it doesn't mean i'm not angry or i have accepted this. But if you think that being vocal will bring you somewhere, good luck. Being vocal in the wrong was what bring us in this situation in the first place.
Try to be constructive instead.
I'm sorry you won't get the theros novel. You'll never will. You are unlucky that theros was almost right after that disaster of Forsaken a paid for that, even if it wasn't guilty.
I hope that novels, or short stories, or whatever they will decide to use to spread some lore will return. Like i said, they always did. Slowly, but they did. This community has many good vorthos and some of them are inside wotc. It will get some time to get the businessmen trust again, but it can happen.
But if you think that constant furious *****ing on social medias will get your theros story to be released and novels to be funded again in a month, sorry, it won't happen. It will actually have a detrimental effect.
You can get angry at me for being a pragmatist, sorry, but it's just the way i am.
What is your plan for mobilization?
Wonderful, that is an accomplishment! And I truly do mean that. Presumably that was accomplished through more than just making noise, which is my point. Particularly since there is a sizeable difference between petitioning to get a character made into a card and attempting to push a corporation to release lore content for Theros. Getting a beloved character on a card requires little to no additional financial commitment, what I presume you're looking for now absolutely does.
ilovesaprolings is correct, social media uproar alone isn't going to get the Theros lore content released, and that uproar could in fact have detrimental consequences. I want you to see success in your mission, but I am not confident that passion and pluck are going to carry you to victory. So perhaps instead of getting snippy with people who want you to succeed, you lean on the community to help you strategize, organize, and actualize.
So again I will ask: what is the change you want to see and how to you plan to achieve that? What tools do you see as being at your disposal? What resources exist in the community that will help you reach your goal? What people are in the community that would be potent allies?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Well, to use a theorical cliché: it's the principle of the thing!
I want them to write good novels. If they did, I might lean more into the Vorthos category. But the condition of the possibility for good novels is that there are, first, any novels.
I think you're right that, eventually, they will resume putting novels out. So the sky isn't falling. But it is a question of sooner rather than later. I think it's reasonable to conclude that giving voice to demand corresponds to a sooner response.
As you've noted, this whole process has happened before. And the lore for MTG has been suffering for a very, very long time. Meaning, MTG creative has been inconsistent in their output of a product, they've had to start and stop several times and still haven't fixed the problem. This kind of flailing indicates that they need some kind of input. So, following from that, we ought to be criticizing what they're getting wrong, to address the fundamental problems which haven't been fixed. In order to do that effectively and constructively, we need two things: to understand the problem as it actually is, as MikeyG states, and to engage in discourse which allows for this to be brought into greater clarity for all relevant parties (consumers and producers). The latter has been my focus as one of the pitfalls to this process are the discursive dead-ends that characterize a lot of threads here. In this case, an example could be something like "novels suck anyway, it's not worth discussing." I believe that if we do move forward in building more clarity, that has potential for being influential on discussions over a wider scope. In other words, we have to consciously choose to depart from the typical structure of these discussions, in which fans tend to cannibalize or invalidate one another, and instead do something like "build community." Easier said than done. My position is that we have to start from theory as a basis and incorporate practical considerations along the way.
It's true that if we go too far into purely destructive criticism, corporate could try to play it safe for longer, although there's a lot of potential for a negative feedback loop going that route. And if we shy away from criticism, we're guaranteed to get more of the same if not worse. So even if you don't personally share the same sentiments which, for example, Tiro has about Theros, it's possible to discuss the issue into a positive resolution. Everyone's passions vary, and people stating how they sincerely feel is actually foundational to maturity rather than disaffectation. That's what I feel is the remedy to "toxic fandom."
Be constructive. First of all, share your vorthos passion with your friends, it may seem a little thing to do but you can always try to improve your community locally.
Second, use the social media constructively. Try to create hype about a set's lore, share stories or art, and so on. I just saw a post on reddit were someone made a custom satyr token to celebrate Theros. Create "vorthos stuff" and share it: this is a good way to help the cause. Big bad bussinessmen won't care about the emotion of a single one, but will be impressed by high numbers of sharing/views.
I wanted to do something similar for Ravnica, a plane i feel get lore butchered every time we visit it, but right now i don't have the means to do so.
Spamming maro inbox won't help very much. Sure, let him know the issue, but be respectful and don't insist too much. That man isn't responsible for novels and other similar things, so he can't actually reverse the decision. Still he is a man who cares about vorthos, he was a lore writer too, ii'm sure he will try to help.
Luckily 2020 may be a good for vorthos, regarding the cards. We will get commander legends, it will probably be the best vorthos set with a lot of major and minor lore characters. The vorthos community will be able to vote with its wallet.
Maro has offered many time to email him stuff about other departments and he would forward them to right people, heads up. Not the most effective way but is one way to reach out to show our displeasure.
On this note Maro is a spokes person and head of design not creative (or development or marketing). Until give the ok he won't publicly speak on the matter and people should be unset if he isn't answering simply since he might not be allowed to.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"