People have already started buying up cards for the format. Siege Rhino went from $1 to $4 two days after the announcement. A lot of high volume buyout gambling is happening right now. Makes me not want to even bother with the format. At this point they can print Pioneer Masters in Summer 2020 or just forget about the format. I also don't feel like playing against Siege Rhino anymore. Everyone was trilled when it was gone.
prices will stabilize, but i absolutely agree. people in this very thread have complained about the cost to get into modern, and this will be no different in very short order. they can't just go and reprint tons of stuff without adversely effecting standard so they forced themselves yet again into a corner where they won't do anything about the secondary market but it consistently causes a problem because of their approach to reprints
Every card in pioneer is also in modern. Once they do another modern masters they can reprint pioneer stuff.
People have already started buying up cards for the format. Siege Rhino went from $1 to $4 two days after the announcement. A lot of high volume buyout gambling is happening right now. Makes me not want to even bother with the format. At this point they can print Pioneer Masters in Summer 2020 or just forget about the format. I also don't feel like playing against Siege Rhino anymore. Everyone was trilled when it was gone.
prices will stabilize, but i absolutely agree. people in this very thread have complained about the cost to get into modern, and this will be no different in very short order. they can't just go and reprint tons of stuff without adversely effecting standard so they forced themselves yet again into a corner where they won't do anything about the secondary market but it consistently causes a problem because of their approach to reprints
Every card in pioneer is also in modern. Once they do another modern masters they can reprint pioneer stuff.
right, because they handled that so well. Remember Tarmogoyf getting the mythic treatment, despite the initial announcement of the new rarity sounding a lot like 'we will not do it to SPECIFICALLY Tarmogoyf type cards'? they will take Modern and Pioneer tournament staples (and not nearly enough of either) put anything with real value at mythic, and put them in $7-10 packs with a bunch of chaff that not even the drafters are happy to see. they discontinued the Masters series because aside from the last hurrah of Ultimate, they ran it into the ground through poor implementation, and Modern still has a bunch of cards approaching or exceeding $100 apiece. and most of the problem cards are from sets with relatively lower print runs. I am skeptical about anything in this new format holding a high price, but Wizards can't really fix it if something does. say a card from BFZ skyrockets, TKS perhaps. if that absurd print run didn't provide us with enough copies, a Masters set won't be able to touch it. idk what the print run numbers of ANY set was, but I would wager that even after multiple Masters set reprints, there are still fewer copies of Tarmogoyf in the world than a given BFZ mythic. they need to go back to real reprints in core sets
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I don't think they will change how they put reprints in the Core set. It satisfies all formats and you maintain reprint equity, just don't expect LotV or other powerhouse reprint in Core. I agree that a Pioneer Master-origin-horizon set is to be expected to inject some reprints from old sets that missed the cut off. With the fetch banning, it makes me believe they want a "slower" format than Modern to push games farther so ETB tapped is likely a mainstay. That being said I would love to see the Mirage fetches be reprinted (e.g.Bad River) for Pioneer.
The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
It would be legal for Legacy, Vintage and Pauper, but for Modern, it depends on HOW they print it. If they print it in Standard then its legal for Modern. If they print a Pioneer set only, then I presume it is exclusive of modern, however, in the end, WOTC can do whatever they want.
The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
There would be no fetch lands for pioneer. I'm 99% sure they will ban mirage fetches in pioneer when they release them in return to zendikar in a year.
The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
There would be no fetch lands for pioneer. I'm 99% sure they will ban mirage fetches in pioneer when they release them in return to zendikar in a year.
The Mirage fetch lands are about the same speed as evolving wilds are they not?
The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
There would be no fetch lands for pioneer. I'm 99% sure they will ban mirage fetches in pioneer when they release them in return to zendikar in a year.
The Mirage fetch lands are about the same speed as evolving wilds are they not?
Oh sorry I googled Mirage fetch lands and the first pic was with Onslaught fetch lands so I mixed them up with modern legal fetches. My comment was about regular modern fetches - Onslaught/Zendikar. I dont know about Mirage fetches, looks like Wizards dont like fetches much and would like to keep them at minimum to minimize shuffling effects in new formats.
True Wizards doesn't like the constant shuffling effects. Yet I think the Mirage fetch lands would be safe alternative to the modern fetch lands. They would help search up lands but not as fast as modern fetch lands.
I would maybe have 4 Mirage fetches at most, and really to fetch a shockland for turn 2 or 3. Maybe Manalith or pain-lands will be more common in some of my multi-color decks in pioneer.
True enough, 4 Mirage fetches to along with maybe 2-4 evolving wilds could help smooth decks a little bit but I don't think it would be as aggressive as Modern fetches.
The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
There would be no fetch lands for pioneer. I'm 99% sure they will ban mirage fetches in pioneer when they release them in return to zendikar in a year.
The Mirage fetch lands are about the same speed as evolving wilds are they not?
Oh sorry I googled Mirage fetch lands and the first pic was with Onslaught fetch lands so I mixed them up with modern legal fetches. My comment was about regular modern fetches - Onslaught/Zendikar. I dont know about Mirage fetches, looks like Wizards dont like fetches much and would like to keep them at minimum to minimize shuffling effects in new formats.
People keep saying that, and have been saying that for years, but they keep on printing new land-search-and-shuffle stuff. Like really, if it was a significant consideration in design, Fabled Passage wouldn't exist. Evolvng Wilds wouldn't be reprinted every eyeblink. They wouldn't have added yet more fetching to Modern in the form of Prismatic Vista. They'd find/design other ways to ramp green than the usual "Search your library for a land". They'd stop printing cards with the Assassin's Trophy / Old-Growth Dryads / Path to Exile / Field of Ruin clause.
There's no actual identifiable sign that they're designing to avoid land-search-and-shuffle as a time saving imperative. If they really wanted to minimize shuffling they'd find a way, and they repeatedly opt not to.
What you say is true. It would be nice to get some budget friendly fetch lands. Also a forum to talk and discuss deck designs for Pioneer would be great.
What you say is true. It would be nice to get some budget friendly fetch lands. Also a forum to talk and discuss deck designs for Pioneer would be great.
That's the biggest disappointment from this announcement to me. With the banning of the fetchlands in Pioneer, I fear they'll never reprint the fetches in Standard again. I doubt they'll even reprint the slow fetches or finish their cycle with an enemy colored group. It's a god damn shame too. Slow fetches and Tango lands/Cycle lands in enemy colors would do a LOT to make decent enemy colored mana bases more viable in EDH and in other formats.
I wish they would get over themselves and print the lands that need to be printed in the actual EDH products. Increase the amount of new cards a little bit and just add the lands that need to be added already. No precon deck that claims to be decent should have a manabase as bad as this years Jeskai deck ever again (it doesn't help that the deck itself is crappy too).
I do not think the only issue with fetches is the searching. The other problem is that every multi-colored deck basically needs to run fetches and the fetches feed a lot of graveyard strategies.
It’s not that they want to remove shuffle effects from the game. That’s impossible and would severely limit card design. It’s that they know they want a collective effort to limit mid game shuffling because it slows the game down and doesn’t play well with growing stream views.
Banning fetches from the start serves two purposes:
1) Of the top played cards in modern with shuffle effects only Trophy ports over to Pioneer so they have already drastically cut shuffling from format to format. That being said, they still to allow color fixing for deck construction so Fabled Passage is a good start as a card that won’t be jammed into every deck, and must be played smartly.
And 2) They can test the strength of “broken” cards in a vacuum of an eternal format without their primary enablers (fetches). The results of that test will likely dictate which direction the format goes in the future.
I’d venture to guess that the first thought the majority of enfranchised players had at the announcement was “awesome I get to brew with DTT or DRS again” not “ah the mana base is going to be less optimal”. Which I’m sure was their goal.
I think we are all really stuck on fetch lands and have put too much stock in always having access to them in non rotating formats. Banning of the allied fetch lands in Pioneer all but confirms we are done getting true fetch lands (land types not basics) in standard ever. Not a bad decision on their part. They have always been problematic there. Not just shuffling times but they also homogenize deck diversity and also thin decks too efficiently in the numbers cycled fetches are played in. Fabled Passage as a standard playable Evolving Wilds is not problematic for standard because it only finds basics and has a real cost in a technical way and not just a managing resources way like Prismatic Vista. It's not a really good land in the pioneer format for 3 color + decks though. It pulls lands tapped early on and doesn't line up well with decks with heavy color requirements. In Modern fetch lands can pull multiple colors out of your deck to diversify your Mana base extremely quickly. They allow you to pull heavy color requirements. You can for example pull GGB, UUU, UUB, and UBG in just 3 fetches in Modern. Fabled Passage and Prismatic Vista both don't do anything close to this powerful. There are exceptions to this. Prismatic Vista would help DRS if it found a way into pioneer. Fabled Passage won't help Deathrite Shaman accelerate early but it can help enable revolt and shuffle an unwanted card away from say Courser of Crufix. Which is I believe the idea in a non rotating format without true fetches (land types not just basics.) You should play Fabled Passage when your build dictates it and not just an obligatory include. There are some other good lands throughout this era of cards beyond just Fabled Passage and Shocks to take advantage of. Cycling lands can be powerful in control decks to help mitigate higher land counts. Cards like Courser of Crufix would be able to take advantage of scry lands. Obviously the Fast land cycle and Pain lands will fair well in Aggro decks. The dual Man lands will probably find niche rolls in many types of decks also. In fact this format could make the lesser land cycles more relevant and give them a source of value when they literally can't compete at all with Modern/Legacy Mana bases.
Additional note, anyone who is complaining about price hikes for Pioneer really have things pretty good. The price hikes on Modern were waaaaay worse for a long time. $50 moderately played shock lands, $10 Remand, $50 Cryptic Command, $10 spell Snare $80 Noble Hierarch and $200 Tarmogyfes were rampant, just to name a few. Heck the most expensive card in the format is only about $50 a couple weeks in! Formats create a supply and demand economy, nothing can change that. Looking to do MTG on the cheap? MTGA is the only realistic option. I am now really loving my decision not to sell off all my stuff post rotating. And people called me crazy!
(Pioneer and Modern are Non-rotating formats, not eternal ones. There is a difference!)
@ haloreaper117- Your uninformed. Standard has only ever had fetches in them three times in M:tG’s history. The only time they caused a problem was when WotC, after saying for years fetches are fine in Standard without fetchable dual lands, included them in a Standard with fetchable duals.
And the shuffling taking up to much streaming time is a hollow excuse because not enough people watch streams of players playing games with real cards because there boring to watch. The heavy stream watchings are from Arena where shuffling time isn’t an issue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
@ haloreaper117- Your uninformed. Standard has only ever had fetches in them three times in M:tG’s history. The only time they caused a problem was when WotC, after saying for years fetches are fine in Standard without fetchable dual lands, included them in a Standard with fetchable duals.
And the shuffling taking up to much streaming time is a hollow excuse because not enough people watch streams of players playing games with real cards because there boring to watch. The heavy stream watchings are from Arena where shuffling time isn’t an issue.
Of all of the standards with fetch lands, wouldn't that make the ugly Khans-BFZ format the most salient to pioneer precisely because the format has fetchable duals?
We don't need fetchlands to maximize the utility of Fatal Push when we have Gilded Goose. Admittedly not ideal, but it is unlikely we need to worry about trying to push something on turn 1, anyway. Renegade Map also works well. As far as worrying about color fixing...well, we will have access to Attune With Aether, Arboreal Grazer (which can put nonbasic lands onto the battlefield, Traverse the Ulvenwald, and so on.
We don't need fetchlands to maximize the utility of Fatal Push when we have Gilded Goose.
So we have a solution, in the form of a card we can have no more than 4 of in deck, and is itself prone to removal in the turn before it becomes unsick, and probably wouldn't be played in many low-curve aggro builds, in specifically Black-Green decks. That ... really doesn't compare to the likelihood of an on-demand revolt trigger in a fetch-loaded modern deck. Like, not even close.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Every card in pioneer is also in modern. Once they do another modern masters they can reprint pioneer stuff.
right, because they handled that so well. Remember Tarmogoyf getting the mythic treatment, despite the initial announcement of the new rarity sounding a lot like 'we will not do it to SPECIFICALLY Tarmogoyf type cards'? they will take Modern and Pioneer tournament staples (and not nearly enough of either) put anything with real value at mythic, and put them in $7-10 packs with a bunch of chaff that not even the drafters are happy to see. they discontinued the Masters series because aside from the last hurrah of Ultimate, they ran it into the ground through poor implementation, and Modern still has a bunch of cards approaching or exceeding $100 apiece. and most of the problem cards are from sets with relatively lower print runs. I am skeptical about anything in this new format holding a high price, but Wizards can't really fix it if something does. say a card from BFZ skyrockets, TKS perhaps. if that absurd print run didn't provide us with enough copies, a Masters set won't be able to touch it. idk what the print run numbers of ANY set was, but I would wager that even after multiple Masters set reprints, there are still fewer copies of Tarmogoyf in the world than a given BFZ mythic. they need to go back to real reprints in core sets
It would be legal for Legacy, Vintage and Pauper, but for Modern, it depends on HOW they print it. If they print it in Standard then its legal for Modern. If they print a Pioneer set only, then I presume it is exclusive of modern, however, in the end, WOTC can do whatever they want.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
The Mirage fetch lands are about the same speed as evolving wilds are they not?
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
People keep saying that, and have been saying that for years, but they keep on printing new land-search-and-shuffle stuff. Like really, if it was a significant consideration in design, Fabled Passage wouldn't exist. Evolvng Wilds wouldn't be reprinted every eyeblink. They wouldn't have added yet more fetching to Modern in the form of Prismatic Vista. They'd find/design other ways to ramp green than the usual "Search your library for a land". They'd stop printing cards with the Assassin's Trophy / Old-Growth Dryads / Path to Exile / Field of Ruin clause.
There's no actual identifiable sign that they're designing to avoid land-search-and-shuffle as a time saving imperative. If they really wanted to minimize shuffling they'd find a way, and they repeatedly opt not to.
That's the biggest disappointment from this announcement to me. With the banning of the fetchlands in Pioneer, I fear they'll never reprint the fetches in Standard again. I doubt they'll even reprint the slow fetches or finish their cycle with an enemy colored group. It's a god damn shame too. Slow fetches and Tango lands/Cycle lands in enemy colors would do a LOT to make decent enemy colored mana bases more viable in EDH and in other formats.
I wish they would get over themselves and print the lands that need to be printed in the actual EDH products. Increase the amount of new cards a little bit and just add the lands that need to be added already. No precon deck that claims to be decent should have a manabase as bad as this years Jeskai deck ever again (it doesn't help that the deck itself is crappy too).
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Banning fetches from the start serves two purposes:
1) Of the top played cards in modern with shuffle effects only Trophy ports over to Pioneer so they have already drastically cut shuffling from format to format. That being said, they still to allow color fixing for deck construction so Fabled Passage is a good start as a card that won’t be jammed into every deck, and must be played smartly.
And 2) They can test the strength of “broken” cards in a vacuum of an eternal format without their primary enablers (fetches). The results of that test will likely dictate which direction the format goes in the future.
I’d venture to guess that the first thought the majority of enfranchised players had at the announcement was “awesome I get to brew with DTT or DRS again” not “ah the mana base is going to be less optimal”. Which I’m sure was their goal.
Additional note, anyone who is complaining about price hikes for Pioneer really have things pretty good. The price hikes on Modern were waaaaay worse for a long time. $50 moderately played shock lands, $10 Remand, $50 Cryptic Command, $10 spell Snare $80 Noble Hierarch and $200 Tarmogyfes were rampant, just to name a few. Heck the most expensive card in the format is only about $50 a couple weeks in! Formats create a supply and demand economy, nothing can change that. Looking to do MTG on the cheap? MTGA is the only realistic option. I am now really loving my decision not to sell off all my stuff post rotating. And people called me crazy!
(Pioneer and Modern are Non-rotating formats, not eternal ones. There is a difference!)
And the shuffling taking up to much streaming time is a hollow excuse because not enough people watch streams of players playing games with real cards because there boring to watch. The heavy stream watchings are from Arena where shuffling time isn’t an issue.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Of all of the standards with fetch lands, wouldn't that make the ugly Khans-BFZ format the most salient to pioneer precisely because the format has fetchable duals?
How broken can we make Approach of the Second Sun when we have access to Scheming Symmetry?
So we have a solution, in the form of a card we can have no more than 4 of in deck, and is itself prone to removal in the turn before it becomes unsick, and probably wouldn't be played in many low-curve aggro builds, in specifically Black-Green decks. That ... really doesn't compare to the likelihood of an on-demand revolt trigger in a fetch-loaded modern deck. Like, not even close.