Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
You truly have been on the receiving end of some pretty big injustices here. I'm just sitting here shaking my head at what you had to go through. If there's anything I can do, let me know. You've been through some s****y stuff on this thread page, been judged and whatnot. Shame on all these people. Shame on them.
Thank you, your thinly veiled sarcasm truly adds to this discussion. I mean, by all accounts, you truly are a beacon of support here and we should all learn a thing or two from it.
@gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
No actually that’s exactly the point I was making. Her race isn’t relevant. It’s not relevant to her individual character or any tropes she could be portraying. The same way it’s fine to have female knights because gender isn’t relevant to them or the dictions that inspire them. They could be any race, gender or sex and it wouldn’t matter. It’s not like, because she’s dark skinned she’s been through the same thing black people in our world have. I’m not going to go into the ridiculousness of “representation other than to say that if you need someone to look like you in order to empathize with their struggles and journey or to think that you could achieve similarly then that’s a deficiency in you and no one else. Skin color doesn’t matter.
So this makes the point I was making. I’m not saying that she needs a tragic backstory. But, is it not reasonable to ask why she is who she is? She is a legendary creature after all. There has to be a reason they chose a black woman to be the Twins step-mother, meaning she’s queen. Married to a white man. I’m not suggesting there be incredible detail, but you’ve chosen to cross a handful of barriers, there should be a level of significance to it. If you’re cool with checked boxes, that’s fine. But, I can assure you that’s not the same as respresentation.
Must utterly disagree. Part of normalizing things like racial diversity is... you know... not bringing up things like "why was she married to a white man?"
Straight up, pointing out that there simply must be reasons for these details, that there has to be significance to justify its inclusion, flat out continues to other marginalized people. It's very much akin to pointing out that a marriage is interracial or that a couple has a "gay marriage" instead of, you know, just... these two people are married, no more context needed, that continues to highlight them as other, and not simply people who are existing as people doing things people do all the time.
By not explaining it as being something that requires a reason in any way, it's far more inclusive and presented as simply a normal part of this world. Women are knights, a black woman is married to a white man. None of it is explained, because it's all just a normal part of life on Eldraine. You know, like fairies flying around and giants stomping about and food coming to life and having sentience is just a normal part of life on this world.
The wildest part is... guess what virtually never needs an explanation for why it is in stories and worlds like this? Fairies, and giants, and living, sentient food. They're allowed to be just a normal part of this world, to simply exist within the world, without any explanation needed. But gender and racial diversity? Nah. That simply must have an explanation to justify it existing.
So, normal is, in a world full of Fae, Giants, Elves, etc., there is exactly one black woman who is Queen? That’s out of place. There is no context. Where the hell did she come from? If she was a purple elf, and there were no other elves present, I would be asking the same damn question.
So to reiterate, for those in the back, where the f*** are the rest of the people that share her characteristics? That’s the point. That is what leads me to believe she is only there to check a damn box. In what world is there exactly one person who looks/acts as they do?
Color aside, let’s say she speaks freaking French. Would that make a lick of sense? I’d want to know why.
My question isn’t why is she black, it’s why is she the only black person depicted in this set. That’s normal? There’s what, ~250 cards in this set? It’s normal to reserve 1-3 card slots for art with PoC? By my count, there exactly 3 that clearly depict a PoC in the art. None in crowds.
You people sit up here and bang the drum of “good job wizards”, yet I’m like, ok you could’ve done more. You don’t normalize anything by introducing in small doses. Give this women some staying power here. Give her a reason to exist.
I mean, by your own admission there are other PoC so... not sure where you're going with that. That statistically it's not at the ratio you think is appropriate?
So, normal is, in a world full of Fae, Giants, Elves, etc., there is exactly one black woman who is Queen? That’s out of place. There is no context. Where the hell did she come from? If she was a purple elf, and there were no other elves present, I would be asking the same damn question.
So to reiterate, for those in the back, where the f*** are the rest of the people that share her characteristics? That’s the point. That is what leads me to believe she is only there to check a damn box. In what world is there exactly one person who looks/acts as they do?
Color aside, let’s say she speaks freaking French. Would that make a lick of sense? I’d want to know why.
My question isn’t why is she black, it’s why is she the only black person depicted in this set. That’s normal? There’s what, ~250 cards in this set? It’s normal to reserve 1-3 card slots for art with PoC? By my count, there exactly 3 that clearly depict a PoC in the art. None in crowds.
You people sit up here and bang the drum of “good job wizards”, yet I’m like, ok you could’ve done more. You don’t normalize anything by introducing in small doses. Give this women some staying power here. Give her a reason to exist.
So, normal is, in a world full of Fae, Giants, Elves, etc., there is exactly one black woman who is Queen? That’s out of place. There is no context. Where the hell did she come from? If she was a purple elf, and there were no other elves present, I would be asking the same damn question.
Will you stop complaining now? It's pretty clear that, while Eldraine has a really big majority of white people, minorities still exist
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Please, I beg you, call me a racist. No need to tiptoe around me with that nonsense. I’ll go to bat for my beliefs and not be shouted down by anybody. You shamed the other user for refusing to engage, you will not get that same luxury here.
Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit.
That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
I think you and I have made quite similar points about tokenism, perhaps we're actually in agreement there?
Now, when you went to say that your ideal fantasy world meant no black people, then maybe you were being just a little overconfident about your ability to stand your ground...
[quote from="Buffsam89 »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/814047-eld-mothership-spoilers-9-16-queen-linden-and-her?comment=69"]Please, I beg you, call me a racist. No need to tiptoe around me with that nonsense. I’ll go to bat for my beliefs and not be shouted down by anybody. You shamed the other user for refusing to engage, you will not get that same luxury here.
Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit.
That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
Now, when you went to say that your ideal fantasy world meant no black people, then maybe you were being just a little overconfident about your ability to stand your ground...
Ah yes. More character assassination based purely on assumptions. Please, point to where I said this. I’ll be more than happy to wait.
You see, I’m a 30 something White male. What I also am is a father of 2 children, one of which is a 7yo stepdaughter who is black. We live in a small town, mostly white peeps. She just started second grade and is currently the only child in her grade that is “caramel” as she calls it.
A few things I’ve experienced first hand, that I’m 100% certain none of you SJW’s(yeah, flag me) have ever had to experience is trying to explain to a 7yo why she isn’t white. Why all of her friends are white. Why all of the things she likes feature mostly white people. She has 2 Disney princesses to choose from, or she immediately questions if she should be that character for Halloween or not. My 7yo has chosen to be Minnie Mouse. She could have been Moana, or that one from Princess and the frog, but she chose Minnie Mouse. She adores the other Disney princesses, so the only reason I can assume she chose neither is because she feels she can’t. Why does she get 2 choices?
Same here, how is “normal” 4 choices(sorry sap, like 3 of those are actually recognizable as PoC, the others are for sure reaches). You took the opportunity to make female Knights feel normal(coincidently, they are all White) by pushing them hard enough into your fantasy setting that it feels normal. Why not do the exact same with PoC?
I’m done. You people go right ahead and sit up there on your high-horses. Cool beans. But you don’t know me. You don’t know who I am. And you certainly don’t know the life I’ve lied. So go ahead and be fine with a this showing here. I guarantee if my daughter was old enough, she would be underwhelmed with the showing of people who share her characteristics.
I mean, at best what you should be advocating for is more PoC instead of calling the Queen out of place, because you're in a thread where people are calling her out of place because Eldraine should be white people only. At worst you're being disingenuous or other negative traits with your argument and it's just an attempt to mask the insincerity.
And there isn't any reason for backstory because the intent is to not treat it as a special thing. Different people will respond to that in different ways, but making a huge deal about it isn't something that would be met with positive acclaim either. It's pretty close to a no win situation.
Ah yes. More character assassination based purely on assumptions. Please, point to where I said this. I’ll be more than happy to wait.
Sure thing:
don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
Emphasis added.
So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.
You see, I’m a 30 something White male. What I also am is a father of 2 children, one of which is a 7yo stepdaughter who is black. We live in a small town, mostly white peeps. She just started second grade and is currently the only child in her grade that is “caramel” as she calls it.
A few things I’ve experienced first hand, that I’m 100% certain none of you SJW’s(yeah, flag me) have ever had to experience is trying to explain to a 7yo why she isn’t white. Why all of her friends are white. Why all of the things she likes feature mostly white people. She has 2 Disney princesses to choose from, or she immediately questions if she should be that character for Halloween or not. My 7yo has chosen to be Minnie Mouse. She could have been Moana, or that one from Princess and the frog, but she chose Minnie Mouse. She adores the other Disney princesses, so the only reason I can assume she chose neither is because she feels she can’t. Why does she get 2 choices?
Same here, how is “normal” 4 choices(sorry sap, like 3 of those are actually recognizable as PoC, the others are for sure reaches). You took the opportunity to make female Knights feel normal(coincidently, they are all White) by pushing them hard enough into your fantasy setting that it feels normal. Why not do the exact same with PoC?
I’m done. You people go right ahead and sit up there on your high-horses. Cool beans. But you don’t know me. You don’t know who I am. And you certainly don’t know the life I’ve lied. So go ahead and be fine with a this showing here. I guarantee if my daughter was old enough, she would be underwhelmed with the showing of people who share her characteristics.
Again, *****ty people, all of you.
I see that you chose to ignore how in my comment you just replied to, I suggested our positions on tokenism are in agreement? So I'll repeat myself: you're right, WotC throwing in a token or two of PoC is not the same as giving representation. But I'm far from being a person who is giving them nothing but praise for Throne of Eldraine. Earlier in that thread I called it bourgeois and romanticist, which for me is a pretty scathing criticism.
I mean, at best what you should be advocating for is more PoC instead of calling the Queen out of place, because you're in a thread where people are calling her out of place because Eldraine should be white people only. At worst you're being disingenuous or other negative traits with your argument and it's just an attempt to mask the insincerity.
And there isn't any reason for backstory because the intent is to not treat it as a special thing. Different people will respond to that in different ways, but making a huge deal about it isn't something that would be met with positive acclaim either. It's pretty close to a no win situation.
This is a special thing. It’s a legendary card. She is a queen. Married to the King. Who is the father of our 2 main characters. All 3 or which do not share similar characteristics. Is it a big deal? Yeah, it kind of is. My point, again, that “‘Cuz Fantasy” just doesn’t cut it. Beyond the fact that there is source material, there is also actual real world implications. Black people aren't black just because that’s the way it is.
If there isn’t a reason for her existence, then why does she? Being able to relate doesn’t just go skin deep. Then, peeps like my daughter could have an actual reason to gravitate towards her.
So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.
For real? So saying fantasy shouldn’t dip too much into realism means I wish it was all white? Was it because I took issue with the point of this character being “needed”? As that means it’s forced? I think that spin would give sir mix-a-lot a run for his money.
Her skin color is what I'm referring to in that context, not her existence as a character at all. And as I said if you read the novel it goes into her as a character reasonably enough. Treating her like a minority and like a weird special case because she's black though is just putting more emphasis on something that they're trying to treat as normal. It's much like they didn't make Alesha flying a trans flag and in pale pink, light blue, and white clothes despite leading the Mardu, or any number of other examples where they're trying to show diverse people as normal. Making it a question that has to be answered is undermining that entirely.
As I said, if you want to say they should have added more PoC in background cases that's something else. But that doesn't mean that Linden is an anomaly for Eldraine itself.
It's my understanding of the lore (having not read the book) that she was chosen (just like Kenrith) to go on a quest for all 5 knight hoods.
She only got 4 because she chose to save Kenrith and his two children (Will and Rowen). They ended up getting married thus she is queen. If the witch had killed King Kenrith, she likely would have still been the Monarch as she would have likely received the 5th knighthood and been coronated.
The fact she is black has little to do with any of that story, and really should it? Do we need to explain why King Kenrith was worthy of going on a quest for all 5 knighthoods? It seems like the latter is just accepted as plausible without pretext while the former is unfathomable.
So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.
For real? So saying fantasy shouldn’t dip too much into realism means I wish it was all white? Was it because I took issue with the point of this character being “needed”? As that means it’s forced? I think that spin would give sir mix-a-lot a run for his money.
Perhaps you weren't reflecting very much on what you were writing. Or maybe you're in denial about your true feelings. Who knows? But it feels increasingly bizarre to me that you came to this thread being so upset and expressing such animus against "SJWs" when your point is that WotC actually needs to do better than Throne of Eldraine. *****' amen, dude.
Things are way heated, and have long since passed being on topic. Locking this thread to let things cool off for now. I will re-open this thread in a few days.
Must utterly disagree. Part of normalizing things like racial diversity is... you know... not bringing up things like "why was she married to a white man?"
Straight up, pointing out that there simply must be reasons for these details, that there has to be significance to justify its inclusion, flat out continues to other marginalized people. It's very much akin to pointing out that a marriage is interracial or that a couple has a "gay marriage" instead of, you know, just... these two people are married, no more context needed, that continues to highlight them as other, and not simply people who are existing as people doing things people do all the time.
By not explaining it as being something that requires a reason in any way, it's far more inclusive and presented as simply a normal part of this world. Women are knights, a black woman is married to a white man. None of it is explained, because it's all just a normal part of life on Eldraine. You know, like fairies flying around and giants stomping about and food coming to life and having sentience is just a normal part of life on this world.
The wildest part is... guess what virtually never needs an explanation for why it is in stories and worlds like this? Fairies, and giants, and living, sentient food. They're allowed to be just a normal part of this world, to simply exist within the world, without any explanation needed. But gender and racial diversity? Nah. That simply must have an explanation to justify it existing.
So, normal is, in a world full of Fae, Giants, Elves, etc., there is exactly one black woman who is Queen? That’s out of place. There is no context. Where the hell did she come from? If she was a purple elf, and there were no other elves present, I would be asking the same damn question.
So to reiterate, for those in the back, where the f*** are the rest of the people that share her characteristics? That’s the point. That is what leads me to believe she is only there to check a damn box. In what world is there exactly one person who looks/acts as they do?
Color aside, let’s say she speaks freaking French. Would that make a lick of sense? I’d want to know why.
My question isn’t why is she black, it’s why is she the only black person depicted in this set. That’s normal? There’s what, ~250 cards in this set? It’s normal to reserve 1-3 card slots for art with PoC? By my count, there exactly 3 that clearly depict a PoC in the art. None in crowds.
You people sit up here and bang the drum of “good job wizards”, yet I’m like, ok you could’ve done more. You don’t normalize anything by introducing in small doses. Give this women some staying power here. Give her a reason to exist.
Huh, is she? I'm afraid I hadn't noticed that. Nor other people of color mixed in.
Bro
Will you stop complaining now? It's pretty clear that, while Eldraine has a really big majority of white people, minorities still exist
actually, 2 other cards you link are also white guys
Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit.
That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.
I think you and I have made quite similar points about tokenism, perhaps we're actually in agreement there?
Now, when you went to say that your ideal fantasy world meant no black people, then maybe you were being just a little overconfident about your ability to stand your ground...
Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit.
That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.
Ah yes. More character assassination based purely on assumptions. Please, point to where I said this. I’ll be more than happy to wait.
You see, I’m a 30 something White male. What I also am is a father of 2 children, one of which is a 7yo stepdaughter who is black. We live in a small town, mostly white peeps. She just started second grade and is currently the only child in her grade that is “caramel” as she calls it.
A few things I’ve experienced first hand, that I’m 100% certain none of you SJW’s(yeah, flag me) have ever had to experience is trying to explain to a 7yo why she isn’t white. Why all of her friends are white. Why all of the things she likes feature mostly white people. She has 2 Disney princesses to choose from, or she immediately questions if she should be that character for Halloween or not. My 7yo has chosen to be Minnie Mouse. She could have been Moana, or that one from Princess and the frog, but she chose Minnie Mouse. She adores the other Disney princesses, so the only reason I can assume she chose neither is because she feels she can’t. Why does she get 2 choices?
Same here, how is “normal” 4 choices(sorry sap, like 3 of those are actually recognizable as PoC, the others are for sure reaches). You took the opportunity to make female Knights feel normal(coincidently, they are all White) by pushing them hard enough into your fantasy setting that it feels normal. Why not do the exact same with PoC?
I’m done. You people go right ahead and sit up there on your high-horses. Cool beans. But you don’t know me. You don’t know who I am. And you certainly don’t know the life I’ve lied. So go ahead and be fine with a this showing here. I guarantee if my daughter was old enough, she would be underwhelmed with the showing of people who share her characteristics.
<snip>
And there isn't any reason for backstory because the intent is to not treat it as a special thing. Different people will respond to that in different ways, but making a huge deal about it isn't something that would be met with positive acclaim either. It's pretty close to a no win situation.
Sure thing:
Emphasis added.
So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.
I see that you chose to ignore how in my comment you just replied to, I suggested our positions on tokenism are in agreement? So I'll repeat myself: you're right, WotC throwing in a token or two of PoC is not the same as giving representation. But I'm far from being a person who is giving them nothing but praise for Throne of Eldraine. Earlier in that thread I called it bourgeois and romanticist, which for me is a pretty scathing criticism.
This is a special thing. It’s a legendary card. She is a queen. Married to the King. Who is the father of our 2 main characters. All 3 or which do not share similar characteristics. Is it a big deal? Yeah, it kind of is. My point, again, that “‘Cuz Fantasy” just doesn’t cut it. Beyond the fact that there is source material, there is also actual real world implications. Black people aren't black just because that’s the way it is.
If there isn’t a reason for her existence, then why does she? Being able to relate doesn’t just go skin deep. Then, peeps like my daughter could have an actual reason to gravitate towards her.
For real? So saying fantasy shouldn’t dip too much into realism means I wish it was all white? Was it because I took issue with the point of this character being “needed”? As that means it’s forced? I think that spin would give sir mix-a-lot a run for his money.
As I said, if you want to say they should have added more PoC in background cases that's something else. But that doesn't mean that Linden is an anomaly for Eldraine itself.
The fact she is black has little to do with any of that story, and really should it? Do we need to explain why King Kenrith was worthy of going on a quest for all 5 knighthoods? It seems like the latter is just accepted as plausible without pretext while the former is unfathomable.
Perhaps you weren't reflecting very much on what you were writing. Or maybe you're in denial about your true feelings. Who knows? But it feels increasingly bizarre to me that you came to this thread being so upset and expressing such animus against "SJWs" when your point is that WotC actually needs to do better than Throne of Eldraine. *****' amen, dude.
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