Think of first strike and double strike like tickets to gain entry to combat. Outside of silver-border land, combat has two damage steps. The first is premium, like first class on an airplane. First strike and double strike give creatures permission to ride first class and deal damage first. Then there's the second combat damage step, like coach/business class/etc. Every creature without first strike, every creature with double strike, and any creature that gained first strike in between the two steps gets to ride here. To continue the simile, think of creatures with double strike like rich people who buy an extra seat for comfort/being fat/their dog. End simile.
Anyhow, the point is that first/double strike have nothing to do with dealing damage outside of combat, unlike lifelink and deathtouch, which care about the actual damage dealt, because they work with the structure of the turn itself. Trample falls into the same category of ability.
Think of first strike and double strike like tickets to gain entry to combat. Outside of silver-border land, combat has two damage steps. The first is premium, like first class on an airplane. First strike and double strike give creatures permission to ride first class and deal damage first. Then there's the second combat damage step, like coach/business class/etc. Every creature without first strike, every creature with double strike, and any creature that gained first strike in between the two steps gets to ride here. To continue the simile, think of creatures with double strike like rich people who buy an extra seat for comfort/being fat/their dog. End simile.
Anyhow, the point is that first/double strike have nothing to do with dealing damage outside of combat, unlike lifelink and deathtouch, which care about the actual damage dealt, because they work with the structure of the turn itself. Trample falls into the same category of ability.
I appreciate this response. Thanks for taking the time out to explain it in a thorough and civil manner
'buster
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
also, yah i know the first one was g/w, but this one really wants to be in red. there are 14 wolves in red, vs 2 in white. a lot of this set so far feels off mechanically. like there's quite a few cards that are just... not quite in the right colors
Arlinn: I've got a Wolf! Vivien: I've got a Bear Spirit I can summon from my bow. Yanggu: I've got a dog who - Tolsimir: Sic 'em, Voja!
Arlinn: Ooh, nice wolf! Ajani: Where's the Cat love?
Vivien: I like Cats. I'm sure I've got some lions and tigers in this thing somewhere...
Yanggu: Lions, tigers, and Bears? Oh, my!
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I know this belongs in the rules section, but i have to ask.
What happens when this card and his legendary wolf token friend enter the battlefield with either a token doubler (i.e. Doubling Season) or a trigger copying effect (i.e. Panharmonicon) in play???
Curious to hear how the triggers stack and especially if, when the fight trigger resolves, there are one or two wolves in play.
I know this belongs in the rules section, but i have to ask.
What happens when this card and his legendary wolf token friend enter the battlefield with either a token doubler (i.e. Doubling Season) or a trigger copying effect (i.e. Panharmonicon) in play???
Curious to hear how the triggers stack and especially if, when the fight trigger resolves, there are one or two wolves in play.
Well, for this i will label the triggers
A = Create Voja
B = Wolf Etb fight
-- = to represent the stack
Soo if you control a Panharmonicon once you play Tolsimir you would have 2 triggers -- A A
Once the first trigger resolved you would get 2 of B cause of Voja -- A B B
first trigger to resolve would be the B to the right
Once all B resolves you get to resolve the last A, if the old Voja is still in play, then after the double B enters the stack you would need to choose one Voja because of the legendary rule -- B B it doesn't metter which voja you pick tho.
If you control doubling seasson:
Tolsimir etb -- A
A resolves, you get 2 vojas -- B B
before a B can resolve you have to choose one Voja
again, don't metter which voja u choose (only metters if you want both fight triggers to actually fight a creature, cause only the one of the surviving voja will deal damage)
if you have both cards in play
tolsimir etb -- A A
A resolves -- A B B B B
pick one voja
Resolves all B (only 2 Bs will actually deal damage)
resolve last A -- B B B B
there are 3 vojas in play, choose 2 to sacrifice
Resolves all B (only 2 Bs will actually deal damage)(if you choose a new voja to stay)
I know this belongs in the rules section, but i have to ask.
What happens when this card and his legendary wolf token friend enter the battlefield with either a token doubler (i.e. Doubling Season) or a trigger copying effect (i.e. Panharmonicon) in play???
Curious to hear how the triggers stack and especially if, when the fight trigger resolves, there are one or two wolves in play.
With a token doubler, both tokens will trigger Tolsimir when they enter the battlefield, but you'll lose one as a state-based action. That mean you'll gain 6 life and get one fight.
Panharmonicon works differently. With two separate ETB triggers, each will resolve and trigger Tolsimir separately. You'll still gain 6 life, but both wolves will get to fight assuming the first wolf dies in the fight or to the legendary rule.
Thanks fof the explanation guys. Very thorough.
What i'd like to know for sure is: Is there any situation possible where two wolves fight one creature and have them deal at least 6 damage to another creature before the legendary rule applies?
Thanks fof the explanation guys. Very thorough.
What i'd like to know for sure is: Is there any situation possible where two wolves fight one creature and have them deal at least 6 damage to another creature before the legendary rule applies?
Oh right, forgot Pan doubles the fight triggers. Make that 12 life and 2 fights per wolf. Legendary rule always beats out triggered abilities due to being a state-based action, so the wolves need to do their fights one at a time.
I did some research about the legendary rule and when it checks.
Even with all triggers on the stack, as soon as priority is passed, gamestates get checked and i have to comply to the rule.
Rules Ref.: 704.3.
So, unless i'm totally wrong, with multiple legendary wolves entering the battlefield, all triggers get stacked and as soon as i pass priority for the resolution, i have to sac one of the tokens.
Lifegain just happens and then, when the fight ability of the sacced token resolves, there will be no wolf to fight and nothing happens. Correct?
I did some research about the legendary rule and when it checks.
Even with all triggers on the stack, as soon as priority is passed, gamestates get checked and i have to comply to the rule.
Rules Ref.: 704.3.
So, unless i'm totally wrong, with multiple legendary wolves entering the battlefield, all triggers get stacked and as soon as i pass priority for the resolution, i have to sac one of the tokens.
Lifegain just happens and then, when the fight ability of the sacced token resolves, there will be no wolf to fight and nothing happens. Correct?
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Why? Nothing about scourge wolf is any better for fighting that a basic 2/2 wolf token.
I guess the double strike has no effect here?
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
First strike and double strike only effect combat.
Along the same lines of thinking, I immediately thought about Garruk Relentless' deathtouch wolf tokens, but alas that would also require a 3rd color.
Think of first strike and double strike like tickets to gain entry to combat. Outside of silver-border land, combat has two damage steps. The first is premium, like first class on an airplane. First strike and double strike give creatures permission to ride first class and deal damage first. Then there's the second combat damage step, like coach/business class/etc. Every creature without first strike, every creature with double strike, and any creature that gained first strike in between the two steps gets to ride here. To continue the simile, think of creatures with double strike like rich people who buy an extra seat for comfort/being fat/their dog. End simile.
Anyhow, the point is that first/double strike have nothing to do with dealing damage outside of combat, unlike lifelink and deathtouch, which care about the actual damage dealt, because they work with the structure of the turn itself. Trample falls into the same category of ability.
I appreciate this response. Thanks for taking the time out to explain it in a thorough and civil manner
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
Nice catch, Voja is a old but good boy
Why?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
also, yah i know the first one was g/w, but this one really wants to be in red. there are 14 wolves in red, vs 2 in white. a lot of this set so far feels off mechanically. like there's quite a few cards that are just... not quite in the right colors
Vivien: I've got a Bear Spirit I can summon from my bow.
Yanggu: I've got a dog who -
Tolsimir: Sic 'em, Voja!
Arlinn: Ooh, nice wolf!
Ajani: Where's the Cat love?
Vivien: I like Cats. I'm sure I've got some lions and tigers in this thing somewhere...
Yanggu: Lions, tigers, and Bears? Oh, my!
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
5 mana - destroy target creature with toughness 2 or less + create 2 3/3s + gain 3 life
-Chandra Nalaar
What happens when this card and his legendary wolf token friend enter the battlefield with either a token doubler (i.e. Doubling Season) or a trigger copying effect (i.e. Panharmonicon) in play???
Curious to hear how the triggers stack and especially if, when the fight trigger resolves, there are one or two wolves in play.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Well, for this i will label the triggers
A = Create Voja
B = Wolf Etb fight
-- = to represent the stack
Soo if you control a Panharmonicon once you play Tolsimir you would have 2 triggers -- A A
Once the first trigger resolved you would get 2 of B cause of Voja -- A B B
first trigger to resolve would be the B to the right
Once all B resolves you get to resolve the last A, if the old Voja is still in play, then after the double B enters the stack you would need to choose one Voja because of the legendary rule -- B B it doesn't metter which voja you pick tho.
If you control doubling seasson:
Tolsimir etb -- A
A resolves, you get 2 vojas -- B B
before a B can resolve you have to choose one Voja
again, don't metter which voja u choose (only metters if you want both fight triggers to actually fight a creature, cause only the one of the surviving voja will deal damage)
if you have both cards in play
tolsimir etb -- A A
A resolves -- A B B B B
pick one voja
Resolves all B (only 2 Bs will actually deal damage)
resolve last A -- B B B B
there are 3 vojas in play, choose 2 to sacrifice
Resolves all B (only 2 Bs will actually deal damage)(if you choose a new voja to stay)
With a token doubler, both tokens will trigger Tolsimir when they enter the battlefield, but you'll lose one as a state-based action. That mean you'll gain 6 life and get one fight.
Panharmonicon works differently. With two separate ETB triggers, each will resolve and trigger Tolsimir separately. You'll still gain 6 life, but both wolves will get to fight assuming the first wolf dies in the fight or to the legendary rule.
What i'd like to know for sure is: Is there any situation possible where two wolves fight one creature and have them deal at least 6 damage to another creature before the legendary rule applies?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Oh right, forgot Pan doubles the fight triggers. Make that 12 life and 2 fights per wolf. Legendary rule always beats out triggered abilities due to being a state-based action, so the wolves need to do their fights one at a time.
Even with all triggers on the stack, as soon as priority is passed, gamestates get checked and i have to comply to the rule.
Rules Ref.: 704.3.
So, unless i'm totally wrong, with multiple legendary wolves entering the battlefield, all triggers get stacked and as soon as i pass priority for the resolution, i have to sac one of the tokens.
Lifegain just happens and then, when the fight ability of the sacced token resolves, there will be no wolf to fight and nothing happens. Correct?
I'm still building this
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Basically, yeah.
And my theory is that Voja is like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa_xNsTK-vE
On phasing:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/184022229493/can-you-errata-so-that-all-werewolves-are-also
Werewolves might be able to be put in the deck too