I understand the concern with the older formats but I'd rather this rule be implemented there just simply because it's more games that get played. As it is now, the thing to do around my area in Modern with combo decks is mulligan to five then concede if you don't get what you want. Entire matches get conceded with combo decks unless both players are mulliganing and frankly that's just not fun.
I really like the London mulligan. It means going to five and even four is not as back-breaking as it used to be.
In the old old, you see fewer and fewer cards, so the likelyhood of having a zero-lander or one-lander (or all-lands) hand increases with each mulligan. That is what make mulligan so awful: after the first one, your chance of actually improving your hands goes down fast. There is no almost no point of going to three cards.
With the new rules, you always get to see a full seven, so you can easily get a two-lands-three-spells or three-lands-two-spells at five, which is a fine hand to keep. Your still down cards, but there likelihood of having a relevant game is much better.
That's actually pretty cool, although a part of me would hope that the further down you go, the deeper you scry (mulligan to five, scry 2. Mulligan to 4, scry 3, etc...
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I like it. I dont like it. I like it because of the consistency it offers against landless and all-land hands but assuming it changed to this London style I find it hard to believe that combo won't force another change.
Also, I must be missing something about why there can't be different mulligan rules for different formats. Bad example but something like nfl vs arena football rules. Still football but different rules to fit the different needs.
Seems like a positive change, but I do not want this in Commander, people will just mull nonstop till they get their combo pieces.
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Seems like a positive change, but I do not want this in Commander, people will just mull nonstop till they get their combo pieces.
Wouldn't that just be a bigger tell to the rest of the table to be prepared for combotown?
But then it means people will have to mainboard more anti-combo hate pieces - and - be forced to mulligan so they can get one or two hate cards early to counter the combo decks' now far more consistent early game.
Good point. Edit: That's a new aspect combo players would themselves consider more.
It will allow for more interesting reads. If the combo deck doesn't mulligan for example, are they trying to psych you out or did they actually get their combo pieces?
But then it means people will have to mainboard more anti-combo hate pieces - and - be forced to mulligan so they can get one or two hate cards early to counter the combo decks' now far more consistent early game.
Which would be a meta call. Some metas may require that, others may not.
Experiement with and with-out it, see what ends up being more efficient.
Very likely not, Vintage Dredge only needs one card to really have a keep hand, it is in the very least going to increase Dredge's game 1 performances, this very possibly has a positive effect on shops too since you can get Mishra's Workshop and Lock Piece in opening hand a little easier. This could end up with Bazar and Shop getting restricted.
You do remember they have to ditch a few cards to the bottom right
Depending on the match up, that can be irrelevant.
Very likely not, Vintage Dredge only needs one card to really have a keep hand, it is in the very least going to increase Dredge's game 1 performances, this very possibly has a positive effect on shops too since you can get Mishra's Workshop and Lock Piece in opening hand a little easier. This could end up with Bazar and Shop getting restricted.
If thats the result then I won't argue. Merely just said test and find out what is more efficient.
If it tests well why not just make this mulligan standard and draft exclusive and use the current one for other eternal formats? Pretty sure all of us are used to using different mulligan rules for stuff like commander, this would be no different.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
If it tests well why not just make this mulligan standard and draft exclusive and use the current one for other eternal formats? Pretty sure all of us are used to using different mulligan rules for stuff like commander, this would be no different.
Agreed. Though 6he more I've been thinking about it for edh, the fact that there's no shuffle between new hands is critical. Until we can test the rule enough I don't want to assume much
Maybe. But it could eat a ban if it was too easily abusable.
I'm for this in Pauper. Although it may make certain control decks more consistent. Maybe with a concurrent ban of a couple of cards there as well.
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If it tests well why not just make this mulligan standard and draft exclusive and use the current one for other eternal formats? Pretty sure all of us are used to using different mulligan rules for stuff like commander, this would be no different.
Been mulling this over more. (Pun maybe intend)
Definitely for limited/sealed/booster pack wars. Would make the environment there more fun.
Standard would be fine unless WotC screwed up on a Shadows/Kaladesh level.
Modern/Legacy/Vintage are iffy as they have the most potential to abuse it.
Commander I am still not sold on it being the worst for the format due to the general size of decks compared to other formats.
This mulligan is LAUGHABLE with Serum Powder , any Leyline, all the stuff that involves having a card in your starting hand.
Its also INSANELY broken in vintage with any kind of combo deck its just stupidly better to assemble the hand you need.
Even just putting a creature on the bottom for stuff like Oath of Druids is a thing.
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For any other format this will be more of an advantage to get at least a somewhat reasonable playable hand if you have to mulligan to 6 and especially 5 and lower ; the vast majority of the time you have to find your 2nd or 3rd land to get the hand playable, and the scry just barely helps with that, but you only get to see the card if you keep the questionable hand, so its a very unsatisfying gamble.
Starting with -X cards is tremendously worse for decks that have to trade 1-for-1 or grind an opponent down, but for a combo deck that just needs to find its pieces, the quantity of cards is almost irrelevant, all that matters is to find the combo pieces and at least a critical mass of lands to cast them.
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As it is, this simply cannot ever be allowed in older formats, it just doesnt work and produces a lot more problems than its trying to solve (with the amount of fetchlands the cards on "bottom" will quickly end up randomly in the deck anyway).
Removing the shuffling from mulligans is the only reasonable plus, or just keep drawing 7 till you keep, THEN shuffle the library again if you used any mulligan, to start with some kind of random library at least.
I think I like this rule for standard and draft. I am hesitant about it when it comes to Commander.
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The same issue, it is too consistent, especially if they keep the free mulligan.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
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In the old old, you see fewer and fewer cards, so the likelyhood of having a zero-lander or one-lander (or all-lands) hand increases with each mulligan. That is what make mulligan so awful: after the first one, your chance of actually improving your hands goes down fast. There is no almost no point of going to three cards.
With the new rules, you always get to see a full seven, so you can easily get a two-lands-three-spells or three-lands-two-spells at five, which is a fine hand to keep. Your still down cards, but there likelihood of having a relevant game is much better.
I hope combo decks don't ruin it all.
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Also, I must be missing something about why there can't be different mulligan rules for different formats. Bad example but something like nfl vs arena football rules. Still football but different rules to fit the different needs.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Would you even need Serum Powder anymore?
Good point. Edit: That's a new aspect combo players would themselves consider more.
But then it means people will have to mainboard more anti-combo hate pieces - and - be forced to mulligan so they can get one or two hate cards early to counter the combo decks' now far more consistent early game.
You do remember they have to ditch a few cards to the bottom right
So you only got a couple of shots to get the combo
Besides it’s usually a three piece and you need the lands for them you mill away what you need by force sometimes
Very likely not, Vintage Dredge only needs one card to really have a keep hand, it is in the very least going to increase Dredge's game 1 performances, this very possibly has a positive effect on shops too since you can get Mishra's Workshop and Lock Piece in opening hand a little easier. This could end up with Bazar and Shop getting restricted.
Depending on the match up, that can be irrelevant.
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seems decent for standard/limited though
Agreed. Though 6he more I've been thinking about it for edh, the fact that there's no shuffle between new hands is critical. Until we can test the rule enough I don't want to assume much
Maybe. But it could eat a ban if it was too easily abusable.
I'm for this in Pauper. Although it may make certain control decks more consistent. Maybe with a concurrent ban of a couple of cards there as well.
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Definitely for limited/sealed/booster pack wars. Would make the environment there more fun.
Standard would be fine unless WotC screwed up on a Shadows/Kaladesh level.
Modern/Legacy/Vintage are iffy as they have the most potential to abuse it.
Commander I am still not sold on it being the worst for the format due to the general size of decks compared to other formats.
Its also INSANELY broken in vintage with any kind of combo deck its just stupidly better to assemble the hand you need.
Even just putting a creature on the bottom for stuff like Oath of Druids is a thing.
----
For any other format this will be more of an advantage to get at least a somewhat reasonable playable hand if you have to mulligan to 6 and especially 5 and lower ; the vast majority of the time you have to find your 2nd or 3rd land to get the hand playable, and the scry just barely helps with that, but you only get to see the card if you keep the questionable hand, so its a very unsatisfying gamble.
Starting with -X cards is tremendously worse for decks that have to trade 1-for-1 or grind an opponent down, but for a combo deck that just needs to find its pieces, the quantity of cards is almost irrelevant, all that matters is to find the combo pieces and at least a critical mass of lands to cast them.
----
As it is, this simply cannot ever be allowed in older formats, it just doesnt work and produces a lot more problems than its trying to solve (with the amount of fetchlands the cards on "bottom" will quickly end up randomly in the deck anyway).
Removing the shuffling from mulligans is the only reasonable plus, or just keep drawing 7 till you keep, THEN shuffle the library again if you used any mulligan, to start with some kind of random library at least.
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