Sorcery speed: check
ridiculously high mana cost: check
Rare: check
25 cents a pop: check
I'll get 3 of these in a booster box I purchase: check
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
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Its a big spell, if it does something its always going to be catastrophic.
Would be much cooler to have a snaggy mechanic on it, like Jump Start or "anything", but in the end, its just 6 mana gain control of something, or 8+ mana and you flat out win the game.
Stealing a planeswalker right when it has enough loyality to ultimate is a recipe for winning BIG , stealing a creature bomb like Niv is winning really big too (especially stealing Teferi + Niv or something stupid).
Anyway.
That the card is bad for almost anybody else is great, it will cost like 50 cents, i get my foil and i am a happy dude.
:/ that cost is definitely something of itself could of been an instant like the Pits before it.
Hahaha, noooo...
I agree the cost is prohibitive, but there is no real way to balance something like this. EOT stealing anything, permanently, and untapping with it would be a seriously busted design. At least they need to tap out before ultimating my PW.
This does a good Insurrection imitation in EDH. If you can generate a boatload of mana the text basically reads: You win.
At the same CMC you only get 2 creatures.
With a non-infinite boatload of mana that's a lot of math for lethal to do if you can't cover everything... and as far as I'm concerned with my meta I'm definitely not spending all that time only to be greeted with Swan Song.
Then we get to the real kicker - it doesn't grant haste, so it's really poor imitation of insurrection to begin with. Sure, the theft is "permanent"... but never trust one turn cycle to pass without the whole table scrambling for wipes after someone has essentially took everyone else's board. Then there's the fun fact that this by itself also gets walled by shroud/hexproof...
Even with infinite mana it's dependent on board-state... dead card in hand if someone just wiped the board.
It's only timmy in cost, but so situational on effect and a poor imitation of a card that's not even really played that much nowadays. The meta must be really casual (emphasis on really) for this to even successfully pull off.
With a non-infinite boatload of mana that's a lot of math for lethal to do if you can't cover everything... and as far as I'm concerned with my meta I'm definitely not spending all that time only to be greeted with Swan Song.
Then we get to the real kicker - it doesn't grant haste, so it's really poor imitation of insurrection to begin with. Sure, the theft is "permanent"... but never trust one turn cycle to pass without the whole table scrambling for wipes after someone has essentially took everyone else's board. Then there's the fun fact that this by itself also gets walled by shroud/hexproof...
Even with infinite mana it's dependent on board-state... dead card in hand if someone just wiped the board.
It's only timmy in cost, but so situational on effect and a poor imitation of a card that's not even really played that much nowadays. The meta must be really casual (emphasis on really) for this to even successfully pull off.
It all comes down to what you expect to steal.
A boat load of 1/1 tokens ? Pretty bad to steal them.
The big deal is the ability to steal planeswalkers, catching them the moment they have the loyalty counters to ultimate right away is really big ; but frankly planeswalkers tend to be fairly bad in multiplayer EDH as they dont really survive long enough anyway.
----
But the card is sweet enough to be a good card to play, if you can expect to catch good targets and play it for big mana reasonable often.
I'm not so sure on that. 6 mana steal a permanent is usually good, but UUUU is really color intensive. Maybe as a first pick, but I will probably be passing on this if I open it pack 2. Maybe if azorius is very durdly and simic has color fixing it will still be cast-able enough times to make it worth the risk.
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This card bothers me. SOMEONE is going to find something to do with it and it's going to be hilarious, but of all the cards that should be Mythic, this is a big one. not the tournament staple that inevitably will be. The one that looks little Timmy, or Johnny Combo Player in the eye 'do you accept my challenge?'
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There is a long history of spells stealing any permanent costing 6+. Confiscate, Take Possession etc.
Dream Leash from OG Ravnica only cost 5, but had a draw back, and because of that can't hit walkers (other than Gideon's i guess).
If this cost UUU instead of UUUU it would be undercosted historically speaking.
That would be justified if this stole any permanent but that's not what this does. This steals two permanent types, not all of them. This is more comparable to Control Magic and Mind Control than the cards you listed. Albeit this does of course have the extra option of taking a planeswalker. So xxUUU, let's say X=1 to steal one thing making the total cost 5 mana, is in the ballpark of Control Magic type effects and isn't so far below your baseline of 6cmc even though this card misses out on all other card types those have the option of taking as well. And if you're going for more than one target, aka casting a 7+ mana sorcery to get two cards, then you kind of deserve it.
I don't think this would really be played outside of fringe decks in just about any format even if it were a U cheaper. I just don't see the harm in letting very expensive sorceries like this have a little bit of wiggle room so that they might be tinkered with instead of, as others in this thread have said, most likely just end up as complete bulk.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
This does a good Insurrection imitation in EDH. If you can generate a boatload of mana the text basically reads: You win.
At the same CMC you only get 2 creatures.
With a non-infinite boatload of mana that's a lot of math for lethal to do if you can't cover everything... and as far as I'm concerned with my meta I'm definitely not spending all that time only to be greeted with Swan Song.
Then we get to the real kicker - it doesn't grant haste, so it's really poor imitation of insurrection to begin with. Sure, the theft is "permanent"... but never trust one turn cycle to pass without the whole table scrambling for wipes after someone has essentially took everyone else's board. Then there's the fun fact that this by itself also gets walled by shroud/hexproof...
Even with infinite mana it's dependent on board-state... dead card in hand if someone just wiped the board.
It's only timmy in cost, but so situational on effect and a poor imitation of a card that's not even really played that much nowadays. The meta must be really casual (emphasis on really) for this to even successfully pull off.
Well EDH metas tend to be pretty casual. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to get to 20+ mana if you're playing green and/or Sol Ring type cards. Infinite mana is pretty easy to set up as well. Cards like these are meant to be late-game haymakers that end the game/defeat an opponent on the spot. You're right that it's dependent on the board state, but not any more so than Insurrection.
That would be justified if this stole any permanent but that's not what this does. This steals two permanent types, not all of them.
This will hardly matter. Creatures and PW are the most threatening stuff to steal in the 99% of cases anyway. Unlike artifacts, enchantments or lands, those are not only "supporting tools" that often do little or nothing alone, but proactive card types that are able to win the games alone.
That's also why cards like Hero's Downfall are always played in every main deck that support the colors while stuff like Creeping Mold is on the sideboard or very niche strategies at best. Creatures and PW are simply the 2 most common card types to use to actively win games where you need the most answers against so the Mass Manipulation will be always be effective regardless of what the opponents is playing (well, at least in Standard, I know that in older formats this would be bad against combo, storm and stax, but those are niche strategies as well).
Also, please note that this is a non-Aura steal, so you can't compare this card against a Control Magic but, more correctly on stuff like Confiscation Coup or Entrancing Melody, which are not as efficent nor versatile as this does with the same cmc. WHich means that a Disenchant is not enough to get the creature back, you actually have to kill it as it a regular foe as others, which means doing a terrible card disadvantage anyway. Tell me, how many non-aura steal spells do you know that at six mana are able to take any creature and/or planeswalker without any restriction based on power, cmc or other parameters? The only card really comparable to this is Blatant Thievery, but in 1vs1 games Mass proves to be much better.
Confiscation Coup was firmly a 1-of sideboard card and Entrancing Melody never saw play at all. Not all cards have to be perfectly constrained by president, especially when the president set has pegged cards with similar effects to this one as ranging from fairly bad to niche sideboard tech. I'm not saying that this card should be come kind of standard powerhouse, but what I am saying is that as it is, this card has no home because it's unplayable constructed formats and subpar in EDH. It would potentially see some experimentation if it were 5 mana to steal one thing and 7 to steal two. Don't know why you're getting so worked up about that.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
This is fairly playable if standard needs a 6 mana steal effect. Probably not, because enough threats are either hexproof, or easily backed up by counterspells.
In EDH, however... Well, this thing probably just wins with High Tide and/or Extraplanar Lens, and folks seem to stick those two into any mono-blue deck. Even in games where there aren't many creatures you still get to walk away with everybody else's commanders for 10 mana (easy to get fairly quickly in mono-blue EDH even without infinite mana shennanigans, and quite trivial in UG). Pretty bomby, that move. Not quuuuite "I randomly cast Tooth and Nail and you all lose because I drew this one card, lol" but still silly enough.
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"Masques Block is the worst block ever! There's not one decent card in there! The whole internet say's so, you're literally the only person who ever said it was good!" - random noob in a conversation with an Eldrazi.
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ridiculously high mana cost: check
Rare: check
25 cents a pop: check
I'll get 3 of these in a booster box I purchase: check
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Its a big spell, if it does something its always going to be catastrophic.
Would be much cooler to have a snaggy mechanic on it, like Jump Start or "anything", but in the end, its just 6 mana gain control of something, or 8+ mana and you flat out win the game.
Stealing a planeswalker right when it has enough loyality to ultimate is a recipe for winning BIG , stealing a creature bomb like Niv is winning really big too (especially stealing Teferi + Niv or something stupid).
Anyway.
That the card is bad for almost anybody else is great, it will cost like 50 cents, i get my foil and i am a happy dude.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Hahaha, noooo...
I agree the cost is prohibitive, but there is no real way to balance something like this. EOT stealing anything, permanently, and untapping with it would be a seriously busted design. At least they need to tap out before ultimating my PW.
At the same CMC you only get 2 creatures.
With a non-infinite boatload of mana that's a lot of math for lethal to do if you can't cover everything... and as far as I'm concerned with my meta I'm definitely not spending all that time only to be greeted with Swan Song.
Then we get to the real kicker - it doesn't grant haste, so it's really poor imitation of insurrection to begin with. Sure, the theft is "permanent"... but never trust one turn cycle to pass without the whole table scrambling for wipes after someone has essentially took everyone else's board. Then there's the fun fact that this by itself also gets walled by shroud/hexproof...
Even with infinite mana it's dependent on board-state... dead card in hand if someone just wiped the board.
It's only timmy in cost, but so situational on effect and a poor imitation of a card that's not even really played that much nowadays. The meta must be really casual (emphasis on really) for this to even successfully pull off.
man... I wish I was that optimistic
It all comes down to what you expect to steal.
A boat load of 1/1 tokens ? Pretty bad to steal them.
A single giant eldrazi ? fair, but not good.
A bunch of haymakers like Consecrated Sphinx, Niv-Mizzet, Parun and a Karn Liberated , oh hell yea, you are in the drivers seat now.
----
The big deal is the ability to steal planeswalkers, catching them the moment they have the loyalty counters to ultimate right away is really big ; but frankly planeswalkers tend to be fairly bad in multiplayer EDH as they dont really survive long enough anyway.
----
But the card is sweet enough to be a good card to play, if you can expect to catch good targets and play it for big mana reasonable often.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I'm not so sure on that. 6 mana steal a permanent is usually good, but UUUU is really color intensive. Maybe as a first pick, but I will probably be passing on this if I open it pack 2. Maybe if azorius is very durdly and simic has color fixing it will still be cast-able enough times to make it worth the risk.
I don't think this would really be played outside of fringe decks in just about any format even if it were a U cheaper. I just don't see the harm in letting very expensive sorceries like this have a little bit of wiggle room so that they might be tinkered with instead of, as others in this thread have said, most likely just end up as complete bulk.
-Chandra Nalaar
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
-Chandra Nalaar
In EDH, however... Well, this thing probably just wins with High Tide and/or Extraplanar Lens, and folks seem to stick those two into any mono-blue deck. Even in games where there aren't many creatures you still get to walk away with everybody else's commanders for 10 mana (easy to get fairly quickly in mono-blue EDH even without infinite mana shennanigans, and quite trivial in UG). Pretty bomby, that move. Not quuuuite "I randomly cast Tooth and Nail and you all lose because I drew this one card, lol" but still silly enough.