I am usually on the other side of the "they shouldnt print chaff" argument.
However, this time I'm on the train.
Only because this is Ultimate Masters. A Limited Print Run. They raised the price.
Because its true that chaff is usually 1/7 of a pack price, that means at minimum a terrible chaff rare in this set should still hold $2 value. Another Half the rares should be $5-12 value. They did not do that in this set. And though usually I am the first one to say "of course there are crap rares, they cant all be winners that would be ridiculous", that usually applies to a standard set or normal supplemental. NOT a $14 Masters pack. It really should be LOADED, even the commons and uncommons. Granted the Hit/Miss ratio on the Mythics seem to be pretty good in this set and there are quite a few Good Rares....it should still be more, and thats not because the player base is being greedy or unrealistic, its because Wizards chose to give us a $14 Ultimate Masters Set.
I think the $14 is a bit of a misnomer. People could just as easily buy 8 3-pack blisters and pay $12/pack. The extra $2/pack is WotC selling you a "lottery ticket" box topper. I don't agree with the idea, but here we are nonetheless.
While I agree, you can easily get the pack for less than MSRP, that is what Wizards set it at in their announcement. Even at $12.....it should still be Loaded (You get standard set packs for less than MSRP too) Like I said Im usually on the other side of the "whining" argument about quality rares in a set.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Sorry, but what I'm missing? Looking at UMA shift in Mtggoldfish, for now, there is 94 cards (the 20 mythics, 40 rares, 34 rest)
Comparing with Modern Masters 1, that has a EV of $400:
MM (254 cards)
cards over $30
4 mythic
5 rares
$20-29.99
1 mythic
4 rares
$10-19.99
1 mythic
9 rares
1 uncommon
uncommon over $5
3
common over $5
1
uncommon $2-4.99
7
common $2-4.99
2
UMA (94 cards)
Over $30
13 mythic
11 rares
$20-29.99
3 mythic
6 rares
$10-19.99
3 mythic
8 rares
uncommon over $5
6
common over $5
0
uncommon $2-4.99
4
common $2-4.99
1
Sure, the prices will drop a lot in the next six months, but will start to increase after a year, because there's a lot of cards that retain value.
looking at all cards (except foils) in M25 from the "full spoilers pre order" to now, the value dropped 45% from $937.8 to $517.4. Those 94 cards in MTGgoldfish already worth $1667, even if all the other cards have $0, and the price drop the same as M25, $916,85, witch is the second best value from masters sets, losing to MM1. But UMA isn't M25, there is less Imperial Recruiters and more Modern Staples, and they said there isn't unlimited supply (we can't truly believe in that). Modern Masters 2015 had a decrease of 15% from pre order to now, MM1 and MM17 increased in value.
Looking at those numbers, I can't see how this set is "equal the rest of masters sets, just with a bigger price".
Sorry, but what I'm missing? Looking at UMA shift in Mtggoldfish, for now, there is 94 cards (the 20 mythics, 40 rares, 34 rest)
Comparing with Modern Masters 1, that has a EV of $400:
MM (254 cards)
cards over $30
4 mythic
5 rares
$20-29.99
1 mythic
4 rares
$10-19.99
1 mythic
9 rares
1 uncommon
uncommon over $5
3
common over $5
1
uncommon $2-4.99
7
common $2-4.99
2
UMA (94 cards)
Over $30
13 mythic
11 rares
$20-29.99
3 mythic
6 rares
$10-19.99
3 mythic
8 rares
uncommon over $5
6
common over $5
0
uncommon $2-4.99
4
common $2-4.99
1
Sure, the prices will drop a lot in the next six months, but will start to increase after a year, because there's a lot of cards that retain value.
looking at all cards (except foils) in M25 from the "full spoilers pre order" to now, the value dropped 45% from $937.8 to $517.4. Those 94 cards in MTGgoldfish already worth $1667, even if all the other cards have $0, and the price drop the same as M25, $916,85, witch is the second best value from masters sets, losing to MM1. But UMA isn't M25, there is less Imperial Recruiters and more Modern Staples, and they said there isn't unlimited supply (we can't truly believe in that). Modern Masters 2015 had a decrease of 15% from pre order to now, MM1 and MM17 increased in value.
Looking at those numbers, I can't see how this set is "equal the rest of masters sets, just with a bigger price".
Are you factoring in the 'foil in every pack' and box toppers?
OK Warmachine prime you have two things confused. the cost of materials for a goyf and a stormcrow are the same (- minus the holo foil), but that is not the only cost involved. Reprint equity/ value is a real thing. the more copies of a thing you make the cheaper it will get because of supply and demand . this is true for magic cards, TV's , Comic books, anything that isnt perishable or has a set life expectancy ( cars, appliances , food items). Goyf use to be a 100 dollar card, they have printed it down to a 50 dollar card and i suspect this printing will get it to 40. in this case wizards used 10 dollars of reprint equity up in the set. if they dont reprint goyf again for a long time price will rise and they will gain reprint equity , or they could do another reprint soon and push the value down lower and lose more equity in exchange for liquid capital, it works somewhat like pulling principle out of an investment . Wizards pulling reprint equity /value out of cards HURTS LGS and single sellers.
we wont buy sets if there is no value in them , to give us cards with value they have to expend reprint equity , this set has a ton of reprint equity in it, and some of it was slow build like back to basics and ancient tomb, neither of these will regain the lost reprint equity . other like lilli and snap caster might go down a little to none due to demand and price inflexibility. in either case they have spent equity in the cards. The more a card is printed the less value it has unless demand is super high. If you put snap caster in a standard bulk set like guilds/m19/ixalan even at mythic due to the increased supply he would be a 25 to 30 dollar card and that is one of the most price inflexible cards in the game right now . look at cruicable or scapeshift both were in the 50 to 60 range now both under 10 . Slow build cards like back to basic and ancient tombs are about to be 10 dollar cards cause they are expensive for being low supply not from true demand , at least the new prints will be the old ones will lose 50% or more value once it settles out.
Now the more reprint equity/ value you put in a set the cheaper overall and the quicker the price will drop on those cards unless the liquid capital cost of the product matches or exceeds the reprint equity . they spend more reprint equity and raised the liquid capital cost to cover the expended investment of equity.
to dumb it down some, 99% of the people playing this game like valuable cards, most would not play the game if every card they opened had 0 value money wise. As much as some people fight it , the secondary market is real , it what gives wizards the reprint equity, and its also why Magic unlike every other card game has lasted 25+ years . If wizards put out this set at 4 dollars a pack every rare in it would be under 7 and the mythic would be at 25 or less if it mass printed , with no true gain for wizards, tons of equity lost, and every single seller / lgs being punched in the nuts. they could have put it at 10 a pack and short run, but then why would the stores sell the boxes? when the equity in the boxes is higher than what they are paying , the LGS and singles guys would just pop the boxes and sell you the singles. Its in Wizards best interest to keep card values high because it gives them more reprint equity to use in future products, and it keeps the people selling wizards products and running their events in better shape and with more liquid capital . Higher card prices "in general" are good for the games health and well being .
But what would really happen? The prices of the so called bomb cards would fall dramatically because of the high supply.
And this is a problem...?
Two issues. You kill consumer confidence on a level like we haven't seen since chronicles. Think similar to if they banned 5 of the top 10 most expensive cards in every major format. Do we want another reserve list, because that's what it took to save the game last time they printed things into oblivion.
The other issue is the immense harm you do to the singles market. You could sink hundreds of lgs and online vendors all in one fell swoop. The loss of thousands of dollars in inventory value can easily bankrupt a lgs. They won't even recoup the losses through sealed product, because that is cheap with no margins.
Literally, the reckless reprinting people want nearly killed the game 20 years ago, and would be just as bad, if not worse, today. The argument to crash singles prices makes no economic sense to Wizards or to the health of the game and ignores history. A middle ground of controlled reprints is the only long term solution that works.
Two issues. You kill consumer confidence on a level like we haven't seen since chronicles. Think similar to if they banned 5 of the top 10 most expensive cards in every major format. Do we want another reserve list, because that's what it took to save the game last time they printed things into oblivion.
The other issue is the immense harm you do to the singles market. You could sink hundreds of lgs and online vendors all in one fell swoop. The loss of thousands of dollars in inventory value can easily bankrupt a lgs. They won't even recoup the losses through sealed product, because that is cheap with no margins.
Literally, the reckless reprinting people want nearly killed the game 20 years ago, and would be just as bad, if not worse, today. The argument to crash singles prices makes no economic sense to Wizards or to the health of the game and ignores history. A middle ground of controlled reprints is the only long term solution that works.
To get the levels of Chronicles reprinting problems would literally require reprinting the same cards over and over in rapid succession, and that's not going to happen any time soon. Goyfs being $20 will not mean we have a Chronicles situation.
Nobody is asking to crash pricing. We also know about reprint equity.
What a majority want to see is MORE AGGRESSIVE printings, stretching the envelope with reprints, not the usual chaff and give a person a reasonable chance to make back their money on a single pack of Masters.
Methinks a lot of Wizard employees have the day off and are posting up in this thread judging by join dates and post numbers.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
To get the levels of Chronicles reprinting problems would literally require reprinting the same cards over and over in rapid succession, and that's not going to happen any time soon. Goyfs being $20 will not mean we have a Chronicles situation.
you do realize a standard set is putting out more copies of cards than Chronicles right, you put a card in a standard set its price will tank, no if ands or buts with few exceptions. look at Scapeshift, or cruciable of worlds bother went from 60 dollars to 7 or less.
Nobody is asking to crash pricing. We also know about reprint equity.
What a majority want to see is MORE AGGRESSIVE printings, stretching the envelope with reprints, not the usual chaff and give a person a reasonable chance to make back their money on a single pack of Masters.
Methinks a lot of Wizard employees have the day off and are posting up in this thread judging by join dates and post numbers.
Actually i didn't have twitch and couldn't remember my other log in
the closer reprint equity is to wholesale price, the less likely the consumer is to see the actually product. the more good ***** they put in the box the more it will get popped for singles by LGS and single sellers. This product is honestly very close to that point and even the E bay guys know it cause they are making 50 bucks instead of their normal 6 a box. they can't be any more aggressive or they would cause huge issues with either the secondary market ( read as real and only market) or you just would not see sealed boxes for msrp and it would be like MM13 .
Methinks a lot of Wizard employees have the day off and are posting up in this thread judging by join dates and post numbers.
These types of comments serve zero purpose and only undermine any reasonable nature of a conversation
They're the "YOU'RE FAKE NEWS" of MTGS and hurt us all when they are posted
So you seek to delegitamize my comments by calling it fake news. Let the forum-ship decide for themselves. Free thought and all. It hurts NO ONE!!!
One sided arguments are pointless. I let mine stand on their own merit. I'll reiterate, Ulitmate Masters is no where near ultimate. An improvement for sure, but when the bar is set so low with Iconic Trashters and MassTurds 25, anything looks better.
Hold WotC accountable. That is what will be good for all.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Wow from the last wave there’s still several hits in those
I love love love the new art on Ulamog's Crusher (I still think there’s two replacement titans of ulamog and kozilek on the way (not them In particular just new ones.).)
Oh slight flaw with the flavor text I believe the minors disapeared/died nearly insataniously when ulamog and kozilek get killed in the story
One sided arguments are pointless. I let mine stand on their own merit. I'll reiterate, Ulitmate Masters is no where near ultimate. An improvement for sure, but when the bar is set so low with Iconic Trashters and MassTurds 25, anything looks better.
Card for card, value for value, Ultimate Masters is holds the highest value and the highest number of value cards compared to any other Masters set.
Methinks a lot of Wizard employees have the day off and are posting up in this thread judging by join dates and post numbers.
These types of comments serve zero purpose and only undermine any reasonable nature of a conversation
They're the "YOU'RE FAKE NEWS" of MTGS and hurt us all when they are posted
So you seek to delegitamize my comments by calling it fake news. Let the forum-ship decide for themselves. Free thought and all. It hurts NO ONE!!!
And you're trying to delegitimise the comments of anyone who isn't joining in on your WOTC witch hunt (whether it's warranted or not) by calling everyone who disagrees with you "Wizard employees [with] the day off." And jshrwd wasn't calling what you said 'fake news'*, but saying that that's what you're doing by calling everyone a Wizards employee.
One sided arguments are pointless. I let mine stand on their own merit. I'll reiterate, Ulitmate Masters is no where near ultimate. An improvement for sure, but when the bar is set so low with Iconic Trashters and MassTurds 25, anything looks better.
Emphasis mine. You say you let your arguments stand on their own, but in the very same comment, try to shut down anyone who disagrees with you?
*The statement 'fake news' is, without a doubt, the stupidest statement to have come to the fore in recent years. (Please note, this is not a dig on those who use it, but only the statement itself.)
You say you let your arguments stand on their own, but in the very same comment, try to shut down anyone who disagrees with you?
Where have I said that? I never did. Say whatever you want, I'll say what I want. Things are peachy.
Card for card, value for value, Ultimate Masters is holds the highest value and the highest number of value cards compared to any other Masters set
It also has the absolute highest point of entry ever as well. At this point in time. Give it a few weeks and see what happens. MM1 probably has a higher EV to pack cost ratio than this set. Let me go check it out.
UPDATE:
MM1 993.38 set value as of now on MTGGoldfish. $6.99 MSRP comes in at a ratio of 142.1 to 1
UMA 1772.05 set valus as of now on MTGGoldfish. $13.99 MSRP comes in at a ratio of 126.7 to 1
MM1 beats it in "bang for the buck" ratio at this time.
Again, this set COULD and SHOULD have been better. I set the bar high, its obvious others don't. That's their prerogative, I have mine.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
MM1 ev was lower when it lauched. And $7 was impossible to get. The $1772 prove is the "ultimate" doesn't mean "better cost/benefit", means "moah stuff", and probably came with higher price.
Where can I buy MM1 for $6.99? Could I ever buy MM1 for $6.99? How many people are buying UMA for $13.99?
This. People take the MSRP at face value a bit too much, especially regarding this product where the market behavior almost immediately proved the valid target demographic doesn't buy the idea this is actually "ultimate", since pretty much everyone is going under MSRP right off the bat.
If we take the packs for their actual sale value as opposed to MSRP, I'd say UMA actually comes out ahead of MM1. At the same time though I'd say it's unfair to compare them considering we're using the same real-time data on two products at vastly different phases of their lifetime (UMA hasn't even started crunching down and MM1 has gone way past price-recovery time), but even if we based them at the only time we could (basically comparing UMA to MM1 during their pre-crunch-down timings based on the actual sale prices instead of MSRP), I'd roughly say they're about even in terms of value... and in Masters terms that means "still significantly better than everything else".
UMA to me is "inverse MM1", with the end result being roughly the same, but the situation leading it being the exact opposite. Instead of pricing something "too low" (words of blasphemy to some people here) and resulting in people complaining that everyone else is jacking prices up instead, they priced it "too high", making themselves look like the bad guys instead of every existing middleman but functionally the market doesn't run too differently, just in the opposite direction for what I'm predicting would be the same result.
OK Warmachine prime you have two things confused. the cost of materials for a goyf and a stormcrow are the same (- minus the holo foil), but that is not the only cost involved. Reprint equity/ value is a real thing. the more copies of a thing you make the cheaper it will get because of supply and demand . this is true for magic cards, TV's , Comic books, anything that isnt perishable or has a set life expectancy ( cars, appliances , food items). Goyf use to be a 100 dollar card, they have printed it down to a 50 dollar card and i suspect this printing will get it to 40. in this case wizards used 10 dollars of reprint equity up in the set. if they dont reprint goyf again for a long time price will rise and they will gain reprint equity , or they could do another reprint soon and push the value down lower and lose more equity in exchange for liquid capital, it works somewhat like pulling principle out of an investment . Wizards pulling reprint equity /value out of cards HURTS LGS and single sellers.
we wont buy sets if there is no value in them , to give us cards with value they have to expend reprint equity , this set has a ton of reprint equity in it, and some of it was slow build like back to basics and ancient tomb, neither of these will regain the lost reprint equity . other like lilli and snap caster might go down a little to none due to demand and price inflexibility. in either case they have spent equity in the cards. The more a card is printed the less value it has unless demand is super high. If you put snap caster in a standard bulk set like guilds/m19/ixalan even at mythic due to the increased supply he would be a 25 to 30 dollar card and that is one of the most price inflexible cards in the game right now . look at cruicable or scapeshift both were in the 50 to 60 range now both under 10 . Slow build cards like back to basic and ancient tombs are about to be 10 dollar cards cause they are expensive for being low supply not from true demand , at least the new prints will be the old ones will lose 50% or more value once it settles out.
Now the more reprint equity/ value you put in a set the cheaper overall and the quicker the price will drop on those cards unless the liquid capital cost of the product matches or exceeds the reprint equity . they spend more reprint equity and raised the liquid capital cost to cover the expended investment of equity.
to dumb it down some, 99% of the people playing this game like valuable cards, most would not play the game if every card they opened had 0 value money wise. As much as some people fight it , the secondary market is real , it what gives wizards the reprint equity, and its also why Magic unlike every other card game has lasted 25+ years . If wizards put out this set at 4 dollars a pack every rare in it would be under 7 and the mythic would be at 25 or less if it mass printed , with no true gain for wizards, tons of equity lost, and every single seller / lgs being punched in the nuts. they could have put it at 10 a pack and short run, but then why would the stores sell the boxes? when the equity in the boxes is higher than what they are paying , the LGS and singles guys would just pop the boxes and sell you the singles. Its in Wizards best interest to keep card values high because it gives them more reprint equity to use in future products, and it keeps the people selling wizards products and running their events in better shape and with more liquid capital . Higher card prices "in general" are good for the games health and well being .
To get the levels of Chronicles reprinting problems would literally require reprinting the same cards over and over in rapid succession, and that's not going to happen any time soon. Goyfs being $20 will not mean we have a Chronicles situation.
you do realize a standard set is putting out more copies of cards than Chronicles right, you put a card in a standard set its price will tank, no if ands or buts with few exceptions. look at Scapeshift, or cruciable of worlds bother went from 60 dollars to 7 or less.
And you realize that most standard sets have next to no noticeable reprints, right? Sorry, I don't care if Crucible is now $10, just like I didn't care when my Onslaught allied fetchlands went from $70+ to $10. More people being able to afford the game and play is not a bad thing.
Oh no my piece of cardboard is now closer to the price of cardboard! The horror!
To get the levels of Chronicles reprinting problems would literally require reprinting the same cards over and over in rapid succession, and that's not going to happen any time soon. Goyfs being $20 will not mean we have a Chronicles situation.
you do realize a standard set is putting out more copies of cards than Chronicles right, you put a card in a standard set its price will tank, no if ands or buts with few exceptions. look at Scapeshift, or cruciable of worlds bother went from 60 dollars to 7 or less.
And you realize that most standard sets have next to no noticeable reprints, right? Sorry, I don't care if Crucible is now $10, just like I didn't care when my Onslaught allied fetchlands went from $70+ to $10. More people being able to afford the game and play is not a bad thing.
Oh no my piece of cardboard is now closer to the price of cardboard! The horror!
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
regarding the value of the set... did they change the rate of mythics ? cause since we got 20 instead of 15 mythics, the chance to get a specific mythic would be lower, right ? so i am not sure if they tricked people with 20 instead of 15 mythics, if they didnt increase the mythic droprate
Correct. It's basically harder to get a specific Mythic, so it actually makes them "rarer" than the typical Mythic.
A crummy move still, but the reason why there weren't as much vocal complaints because even the 4 worst of the lot (Balefire, Lord of Extinction, Emperion and Sigarda) are by no means Comet Storm terrible... and people are more willing to overlook 20 Mythics with 4 "sub-par but still decent choices" over 15 Mythics with 1 outright trash.
I mean to be fair by now anybody who buys packs can tell you it's basically stupid to buy packs to look for a specific Mythic regardless of the number of Mythics... so the overall quality becomes more important than the quantity. 20 "Good" Mythics is better than 14/15 Good Mythics even if the rate to pull a specific one is lower.
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While I agree, you can easily get the pack for less than MSRP, that is what Wizards set it at in their announcement. Even at $12.....it should still be Loaded (You get standard set packs for less than MSRP too) Like I said Im usually on the other side of the "whining" argument about quality rares in a set.
Comparing with Modern Masters 1, that has a EV of $400:
MM (254 cards)
cards over $30
4 mythic
5 rares
$20-29.99
1 mythic
4 rares
$10-19.99
1 mythic
9 rares
1 uncommon
uncommon over $5
3
common over $5
1
uncommon $2-4.99
7
common $2-4.99
2
UMA (94 cards)
Over $30
13 mythic
11 rares
$20-29.99
3 mythic
6 rares
$10-19.99
3 mythic
8 rares
uncommon over $5
6
common over $5
0
uncommon $2-4.99
4
common $2-4.99
1
Sure, the prices will drop a lot in the next six months, but will start to increase after a year, because there's a lot of cards that retain value.
looking at all cards (except foils) in M25 from the "full spoilers pre order" to now, the value dropped 45% from $937.8 to $517.4. Those 94 cards in MTGgoldfish already worth $1667, even if all the other cards have $0, and the price drop the same as M25, $916,85, witch is the second best value from masters sets, losing to MM1. But UMA isn't M25, there is less Imperial Recruiters and more Modern Staples, and they said there isn't unlimited supply (we can't truly believe in that). Modern Masters 2015 had a decrease of 15% from pre order to now, MM1 and MM17 increased in value.
Looking at those numbers, I can't see how this set is "equal the rest of masters sets, just with a bigger price".
And this is a problem...?
Are you factoring in the 'foil in every pack' and box toppers?
No, add that and looks like a really good $12 pack to me.
we wont buy sets if there is no value in them , to give us cards with value they have to expend reprint equity , this set has a ton of reprint equity in it, and some of it was slow build like back to basics and ancient tomb, neither of these will regain the lost reprint equity . other like lilli and snap caster might go down a little to none due to demand and price inflexibility. in either case they have spent equity in the cards. The more a card is printed the less value it has unless demand is super high. If you put snap caster in a standard bulk set like guilds/m19/ixalan even at mythic due to the increased supply he would be a 25 to 30 dollar card and that is one of the most price inflexible cards in the game right now . look at cruicable or scapeshift both were in the 50 to 60 range now both under 10 . Slow build cards like back to basic and ancient tombs are about to be 10 dollar cards cause they are expensive for being low supply not from true demand , at least the new prints will be the old ones will lose 50% or more value once it settles out.
Now the more reprint equity/ value you put in a set the cheaper overall and the quicker the price will drop on those cards unless the liquid capital cost of the product matches or exceeds the reprint equity . they spend more reprint equity and raised the liquid capital cost to cover the expended investment of equity.
to dumb it down some, 99% of the people playing this game like valuable cards, most would not play the game if every card they opened had 0 value money wise. As much as some people fight it , the secondary market is real , it what gives wizards the reprint equity, and its also why Magic unlike every other card game has lasted 25+ years . If wizards put out this set at 4 dollars a pack every rare in it would be under 7 and the mythic would be at 25 or less if it mass printed , with no true gain for wizards, tons of equity lost, and every single seller / lgs being punched in the nuts. they could have put it at 10 a pack and short run, but then why would the stores sell the boxes? when the equity in the boxes is higher than what they are paying , the LGS and singles guys would just pop the boxes and sell you the singles. Its in Wizards best interest to keep card values high because it gives them more reprint equity to use in future products, and it keeps the people selling wizards products and running their events in better shape and with more liquid capital . Higher card prices "in general" are good for the games health and well being .
Two issues. You kill consumer confidence on a level like we haven't seen since chronicles. Think similar to if they banned 5 of the top 10 most expensive cards in every major format. Do we want another reserve list, because that's what it took to save the game last time they printed things into oblivion.
The other issue is the immense harm you do to the singles market. You could sink hundreds of lgs and online vendors all in one fell swoop. The loss of thousands of dollars in inventory value can easily bankrupt a lgs. They won't even recoup the losses through sealed product, because that is cheap with no margins.
Literally, the reckless reprinting people want nearly killed the game 20 years ago, and would be just as bad, if not worse, today. The argument to crash singles prices makes no economic sense to Wizards or to the health of the game and ignores history. A middle ground of controlled reprints is the only long term solution that works.
To get the levels of Chronicles reprinting problems would literally require reprinting the same cards over and over in rapid succession, and that's not going to happen any time soon. Goyfs being $20 will not mean we have a Chronicles situation.
What a majority want to see is MORE AGGRESSIVE printings, stretching the envelope with reprints, not the usual chaff and give a person a reasonable chance to make back their money on a single pack of Masters.
Methinks a lot of Wizard employees have the day off and are posting up in this thread judging by join dates and post numbers.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
you do realize a standard set is putting out more copies of cards than Chronicles right, you put a card in a standard set its price will tank, no if ands or buts with few exceptions. look at Scapeshift, or cruciable of worlds bother went from 60 dollars to 7 or less.
Actually i didn't have twitch and couldn't remember my other log in
the closer reprint equity is to wholesale price, the less likely the consumer is to see the actually product. the more good ***** they put in the box the more it will get popped for singles by LGS and single sellers. This product is honestly very close to that point and even the E bay guys know it cause they are making 50 bucks instead of their normal 6 a box. they can't be any more aggressive or they would cause huge issues with either the secondary market ( read as real and only market) or you just would not see sealed boxes for msrp and it would be like MM13 .
These types of comments serve zero purpose and only undermine any reasonable nature of a conversation
They're the "YOU'RE FAKE NEWS" of MTGS and hurt us all when they are posted
So you seek to delegitamize my comments by calling it fake news. Let the forum-ship decide for themselves. Free thought and all. It hurts NO ONE!!!
One sided arguments are pointless. I let mine stand on their own merit. I'll reiterate, Ulitmate Masters is no where near ultimate. An improvement for sure, but when the bar is set so low with Iconic Trashters and MassTurds 25, anything looks better.
Hold WotC accountable. That is what will be good for all.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I love love love the new art on Ulamog's Crusher (I still think there’s two replacement titans of ulamog and kozilek on the way (not them In particular just new ones.).)
Oh slight flaw with the flavor text I believe the minors disapeared/died nearly insataniously when ulamog and kozilek get killed in the story
Card for card, value for value, Ultimate Masters is holds the highest value and the highest number of value cards compared to any other Masters set.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
And you're trying to delegitimise the comments of anyone who isn't joining in on your WOTC witch hunt (whether it's warranted or not) by calling everyone who disagrees with you "Wizard employees [with] the day off." And jshrwd wasn't calling what you said 'fake news'*, but saying that that's what you're doing by calling everyone a Wizards employee.
Emphasis mine. You say you let your arguments stand on their own, but in the very same comment, try to shut down anyone who disagrees with you?
*The statement 'fake news' is, without a doubt, the stupidest statement to have come to the fore in recent years. (Please note, this is not a dig on those who use it, but only the statement itself.)
Where have I said that? I never did. Say whatever you want, I'll say what I want. Things are peachy.
It also has the absolute highest point of entry ever as well. At this point in time. Give it a few weeks and see what happens. MM1 probably has a higher EV to pack cost ratio than this set. Let me go check it out.
UPDATE:
MM1 993.38 set value as of now on MTGGoldfish. $6.99 MSRP comes in at a ratio of 142.1 to 1
UMA 1772.05 set valus as of now on MTGGoldfish. $13.99 MSRP comes in at a ratio of 126.7 to 1
MM1 beats it in "bang for the buck" ratio at this time.
Again, this set COULD and SHOULD have been better. I set the bar high, its obvious others don't. That's their prerogative, I have mine.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Where can I buy MM1 for $6.99? Could I ever buy MM1 for $6.99? How many people are buying UMA for $13.99?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This. People take the MSRP at face value a bit too much, especially regarding this product where the market behavior almost immediately proved the valid target demographic doesn't buy the idea this is actually "ultimate", since pretty much everyone is going under MSRP right off the bat.
If we take the packs for their actual sale value as opposed to MSRP, I'd say UMA actually comes out ahead of MM1. At the same time though I'd say it's unfair to compare them considering we're using the same real-time data on two products at vastly different phases of their lifetime (UMA hasn't even started crunching down and MM1 has gone way past price-recovery time), but even if we based them at the only time we could (basically comparing UMA to MM1 during their pre-crunch-down timings based on the actual sale prices instead of MSRP), I'd roughly say they're about even in terms of value... and in Masters terms that means "still significantly better than everything else".
UMA to me is "inverse MM1", with the end result being roughly the same, but the situation leading it being the exact opposite. Instead of pricing something "too low" (words of blasphemy to some people here) and resulting in people complaining that everyone else is jacking prices up instead, they priced it "too high", making themselves look like the bad guys instead of every existing middleman but functionally the market doesn't run too differently, just in the opposite direction for what I'm predicting would be the same result.
This is the truth. Like it or not
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
And you realize that most standard sets have next to no noticeable reprints, right? Sorry, I don't care if Crucible is now $10, just like I didn't care when my Onslaught allied fetchlands went from $70+ to $10. More people being able to afford the game and play is not a bad thing.
Oh no my piece of cardboard is now closer to the price of cardboard! The horror!
Actually it had 6 until the new supply of Chromatic Lantern pulled it down below pack value.
This is the truth. Like it or not.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Correct. It's basically harder to get a specific Mythic, so it actually makes them "rarer" than the typical Mythic.
A crummy move still, but the reason why there weren't as much vocal complaints because even the 4 worst of the lot (Balefire, Lord of Extinction, Emperion and Sigarda) are by no means Comet Storm terrible... and people are more willing to overlook 20 Mythics with 4 "sub-par but still decent choices" over 15 Mythics with 1 outright trash.
I mean to be fair by now anybody who buys packs can tell you it's basically stupid to buy packs to look for a specific Mythic regardless of the number of Mythics... so the overall quality becomes more important than the quantity. 20 "Good" Mythics is better than 14/15 Good Mythics even if the rate to pull a specific one is lower.