Its not as aggressive as rabblemaster. If you're swinging in every turn, this is capped out at creating 1/5/7/9 power on the board on T3/4/5/6 respectively, maybe a bit more if there's a pushed 1/1 double strike applicable but this would be hard pressed to scale past ever adding a +1/+1 to anything but a 1/1 base- even if you give it a lord effect, your 1/1s will get that too and become 2/2s, so it can't mentor them past 3/3. So count this as 1/5/7/9 power. Rabblemaster makes 1/6+x/8+x/10+x power where X is the number of other gobbos you drop. Which is usually going to be 2+, maybe 4+. So rabblemaster piledrives it in whereas this just poops mogg-sized gobbos. And that's also an advantage against spot removal, because after swinging once this can leave you with larger 2/2 tokens leftover
Now that's in terms of pure goldfish aggressiveness. This is better equipped for attacking into some 2/2 or larger blockers and less all-in aggressive since it can sit back and generate tokens without attacking, and won't force the rest of your field to suicide. But its also a pretty sad token generator if you don't swing in- it won't mentor- and its a contrived board state you'd have to be in where you want 1/1 tokens that charge in but your horde doesn't.
/e wow I got that off in the original, brainfarted those numbers hard, fixed
Effectively, he creates a 2/2 Goblin token with haste every combat. He slots into both Boros Mentor decks and Goblin tribal decks quite nicely. And as Goblins go, he looks pretty badass.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Question is, whether there are 2 drops that are better to mentor than a boring goblin (as mentioned, double strikers, evasive creatures, etc.) and 4 drops that could mentor this into a better blocker either (preferably with Haste.)
Kari Zev is an example of a good 2 drop target to mentor, something like a 3/2 menace/haste/mentor creature for 4 that grants menace to creatures you mentor of the latter.
Nice a rabblemaster that isn't forced to attack and only the littlins are forced. However he does not get the massive boost in power like Rabblemaster does.
Its not as aggressive as rabblemaster. If you're swinging in every turn, this is capped out at creating 1/5/7/9 power on the board on T3/4/5/6 respectively, maybe a bit more if there's a pushed 1/1 double strike applicable but this would be hard pressed to scale past ever adding a +1/+1 to anything but a 1/1 base- even if you give it a lord effect, your 1/1s will get that too and become 2/2s, so it can't mentor them past 3/3. So count this as 1/5/7/9 power. Rabblemaster makes 1/6+x/8+x/10+x power where X is the number of other gobbos you drop. Which is usually going to be 2+, maybe 4+. So rabblemaster piledrives it in whereas this just poops mogg-sized gobbos. And that's also an advantage against spot removal, because after swinging once this can leave you with larger 2/2 tokens leftover
Now that's in terms of pure goldfish aggressiveness. This is better equipped for attacking into some 2/2 or larger blockers and less all-in aggressive since it can sit back and generate tokens without attacking, and won't force the rest of your field to suicide. But its also a pretty sad token generator if you don't swing in- it won't mentor- and its a contrived board state you'd have to be in where you want 1/1 tokens that charge in but your horde doesn't.
/e wow I got that off in the original, brainfarted those numbers hard, fixed
I mean, your opponent having a X/1 and not much else doesn't seem that contrived of a board state, especially on early turns. You probably wouldn't want to trade your Warboss for their dude, but you're happy if they trade your token for their dude.
Can you stack Mentor? If a 3/3 with Mentor and this guy attacks do you get to make himself 3/3 with the ability to mentor a 2/2?
Basically, you could choose to get a 3/3 token, or a 2/2 token and a 3/3 Warboss:
- Create the 1/1 goblin.
- Two mentors attack, two triggers
o The 3/3 can target the token or the Warboss
o The Warboss can only target the token.
Assuming the mentors survive, you'd end up making 3/3 tokens that have haste and must attack on the following turns (the Warboss would be a 3/3 and so the other 3/3 mentor has to target the token now).
It's a bit strange that he creates a goblin on the turn he comes into play but he himself can't attack to use mentor. You'd think he'd also have haste in that case.
Third time's a charm! After 13 years, we finally get a Boros mechanic that I don't hate.
Although this card doesn't particularly inspire me to get cooking with mentor (it's rather too self-contained). But, I'm optimistic that some other card will.
Mentor reminds me a bit of unleash, which I loved, and a bit of evolve, which I did not love. But, I think it steers clear of evolve's major problem, namely that mentor doesn't appear to require perfect, on-curve play to achieve optimal results.
Can you stack Mentor? If a 3/3 with Mentor and this guy attacks do you get to make himself 3/3 with the ability to mentor a 2/2?
Basically, you could choose to get a 3/3 token, or a 2/2 token and a 3/3 Warboss:
- Create the 1/1 goblin.
- Two mentors attack, two triggers
o The 3/3 can target the token or the Warboss
o The Warboss can only target the token.
Assuming the mentors survive, you'd end up making 3/3 tokens that have haste and must attack on the following turns (the Warboss would be a 3/3 and so the other 3/3 mentor has to target the token now).
Can you stack Mentor? If a 3/3 with Mentor and this guy attacks do you get to make himself 3/3 with the ability to mentor a 2/2?
Basically, you could choose to get a 3/3 token, or a 2/2 token and a 3/3 Warboss:
- Create the 1/1 goblin.
- Two mentors attack, two triggers
o The 3/3 can target the token or the Warboss
o The Warboss can only target the token.
Assuming the mentors survive, you'd end up making 3/3 tokens that have haste and must attack on the following turns (the Warboss would be a 3/3 and so the other 3/3 mentor has to target the token now).
Makes sense, thanks.
How will this work with the other guy. Boros Challenger BC (2/3) and the +1/+1 effect till end of turn?
You attack with a Goblin Token (1/1), BC (2/3) and LW (2/2):
1. You use BC pump (BC 3/4 end of turn)
2. Mentor trigger, attacked with BC: But a counter on LW 3/3
3. Mentor trigger, attacked with LW: But a counter on Token 2/2
This should be right but could you do following in the next turn (BC 2/3, LW 3/3, Token 2/2):
1. Mentor trigger, attacked with LW: But a counter on BC 3/4
2. Mentor trigger, attacked with BC: Use the pump on the trigger BC (4/5) => but a counter on LW (4/4)
3. Token stay 2/2 and new Token 1/1
Edit: I know I attacked with all at once but i have to choose the order of the trigger. So Step two should be valid?
Pretty sure you can't have the two of them point at each other, but you could alternate over a couple of turns by using the pump ability selectively.
Can you stack Mentor? If a 3/3 with Mentor and this guy attacks do you get to make himself 3/3 with the ability to mentor a 2/2?
Basically, you could choose to get a 3/3 token, or a 2/2 token and a 3/3 Warboss:
- Create the 1/1 goblin.
- Two mentors attack, two triggers
o The 3/3 can target the token or the Warboss
o The Warboss can only target the token.
Assuming the mentors survive, you'd end up making 3/3 tokens that have haste and must attack on the following turns (the Warboss would be a 3/3 and so the other 3/3 mentor has to target the token now).
Makes sense, thanks.
How will this work with the other guy. Boros Challenger BC (2/3) and the +1/+1 effect till end of turn?
You attack with a Goblin Token (1/1), BC (2/3) and LW (2/2):
1. You use BC pump (BC 3/4 end of turn)
2. Mentor trigger, attacked with BC: But a counter on LW 3/3
3. Mentor trigger, attacked with LW: But a counter on Token 2/2
The LW won't get to put a counter on a 2/2 on this turn. You have to put the triggers on the stack before they resolve and the LW can't target a 2/2. They also check when they resolve so if you did something weird where the target was legal but then had too much power on resoloution then Mentor is countered.
In other words the mentor triggers at 2 and 3 happen at the same time - and LW only has 2 power, not yet 3.
You can do shinanigans with this over multiple turns, though. You can even BC the LW on turn 4 and then LW the BC the turn after.
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With RB Aggro and Mono Red Flame of Keld losing a lot of toys rotating out of Standard, Mono Red Goblins/Boros Goblins may stand a chance as being the next best aggro deck. Suit this guy up with, oh, I don't know, See Red, Frenzied Rage, and/or Sure Strike and we got ourselves a party.
Can you stack Mentor? If a 3/3 with Mentor and this guy attacks do you get to make himself 3/3 with the ability to mentor a 2/2?
Not in that way.
Let's say we have a creature with 3 power, a creature with 2 power, and a creature with 1 power, and the first two have mentor. The 3 can mentor the 2 and the 2 can mentor the 1; or they both can mentor the 1, so long as you stack it so the 2's mentor resolves last (because, you know, intervening if clause). But if you have a creature with 3 power and mentor, a creature with 2 power and mentor, and a creature with 2 power without mentor, the 3 power can mentor either of the other two, and that's it.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It's a bit strange that he creates a goblin on the turn he comes into play but he himself can't attack to use mentor. You'd think he'd also have haste in that case.
Well, someone has to bait traps and ambushes.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Can you stack Mentor? If a 3/3 with Mentor and this guy attacks do you get to make himself 3/3 with the ability to mentor a 2/2?
Not in that way.
Let's say we have a creature with 3 power, a creature with 2 power, and a creature with 1 power, and the first two have mentor. The 3 can mentor the 2 and the 2 can mentor the 1; or they both can mentor the 1, so long as you stack it so the 2's mentor resolves last (because, you know, intervening if clause). But if you have a creature with 3 power and mentor, a creature with 2 power and mentor, and a creature with 2 power without mentor, the 3 power can mentor either of the other two, and that's it.
The 2 power creature would have to mentor first, not last. The way you described the 3/3 would mentor the 1/1 and the 2/2's ability would fizzle (be countered due to invalid target)
It would go on the stack last - which might be what you meant to say.
I think this mechanic is going to trip up a lot of people with stack ordering declarations.
I think this mechanic is going to trip up a lot of people with stack ordering declarations.
yeah in the mechanics preview article on the mothership they even explicitly state that trigger stacking order is going to come up.
i think magic players can handle complex interactions, but it did make me question how well the mentor mechanic is designed on a fundamental level. like its so non-intuitive that you have to warn people off the bat? /shrug
luckily these sort of mechanics are somewhat insulated to limited. outside of a few pushed cards like the warboss i doubt we will see much of it in constructed.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
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via Pax West event.
Now that's in terms of pure goldfish aggressiveness. This is better equipped for attacking into some 2/2 or larger blockers and less all-in aggressive since it can sit back and generate tokens without attacking, and won't force the rest of your field to suicide. But its also a pretty sad token generator if you don't swing in- it won't mentor- and its a contrived board state you'd have to be in where you want 1/1 tokens that charge in but your horde doesn't.
/e wow I got that off in the original, brainfarted those numbers hard, fixed
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Kari Zev is an example of a good 2 drop target to mentor, something like a 3/2 menace/haste/mentor creature for 4 that grants menace to creatures you mentor of the latter.
Past Ruminations
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- Kaladesh
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- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Although this card doesn't particularly inspire me to get cooking with mentor (it's rather too self-contained). But, I'm optimistic that some other card will.
Mentor reminds me a bit of unleash, which I loved, and a bit of evolve, which I did not love. But, I think it steers clear of evolve's major problem, namely that mentor doesn't appear to require perfect, on-curve play to achieve optimal results.
Makes sense, thanks.
Pretty sure you can't have the two of them point at each other, but you could alternate over a couple of turns by using the pump ability selectively.
The LW won't get to put a counter on a 2/2 on this turn. You have to put the triggers on the stack before they resolve and the LW can't target a 2/2. They also check when they resolve so if you did something weird where the target was legal but then had too much power on resoloution then Mentor is countered.
In other words the mentor triggers at 2 and 3 happen at the same time - and LW only has 2 power, not yet 3.
You can do shinanigans with this over multiple turns, though. You can even BC the LW on turn 4 and then LW the BC the turn after.
And yes, there are quite the shenanigans to be had with the Boros Challenger... though I doubt that you will have the mana to use it much
More accurately - the combat it is created. If you get two attack phases for some reason it's not even required to attack in the 2nd one.
Not in that way.
Let's say we have a creature with 3 power, a creature with 2 power, and a creature with 1 power, and the first two have mentor. The 3 can mentor the 2 and the 2 can mentor the 1; or they both can mentor the 1, so long as you stack it so the 2's mentor resolves last (because, you know, intervening if clause). But if you have a creature with 3 power and mentor, a creature with 2 power and mentor, and a creature with 2 power without mentor, the 3 power can mentor either of the other two, and that's it.
On phasing:
Well, someone has to bait traps and ambushes.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
The 2 power creature would have to mentor first, not last. The way you described the 3/3 would mentor the 1/1 and the 2/2's ability would fizzle (be countered due to invalid target)
It would go on the stack last - which might be what you meant to say.
I think this mechanic is going to trip up a lot of people with stack ordering declarations.
yeah in the mechanics preview article on the mothership they even explicitly state that trigger stacking order is going to come up.
i think magic players can handle complex interactions, but it did make me question how well the mentor mechanic is designed on a fundamental level. like its so non-intuitive that you have to warn people off the bat? /shrug
luckily these sort of mechanics are somewhat insulated to limited. outside of a few pushed cards like the warboss i doubt we will see much of it in constructed.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)