Surveil is exactly that. A worse Explore, BUT, it works great in conjunction with the Explore mechanic. I allready have the sultai shell for it so i can't wait to see the cards and feel how they fit together.
Surveil has the advantage of being able to look at more than one card at once, The terrible person that I am wants to see "Surveil 2 then Draw a card" instant for U to see how quickly it gets banned/restricted
We better get the obvious Opt version but man... your version would be amazing, reminds me of Buried Alive being the great Threshold enabler.
Surveil certainly operates on the same spectrum as Explore but certainly has more potential to be much more powerful. I highly doubt we'll see a triple explore card due to clunkiness and being tied to creatures is limiting. It is definitely not a strictly worse version by any means
Well my card is just a 1 mana cantrip, those are super good in eternal formats.
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Well my card is just a 1 mana cantrip, those are super good in eternal formats.
Your card is strictly better than Preordain in a couple of ways, so... yeah.
That is mostly the point, I was just showing off that the Mechanic could be absolutely broken depending on what they put it on. I am calling that if they have any sort of instant can trip at 1U or lower cost it will probably see banning eventually even if it is just
The Surveil part is funny because you seem to be forgetting that if you don't build around it it's still almost the same as Scry.
It's a strictly worse version of Scry, unless you build around it. And Scry is generally pretty much free, tacked onto other effects. I doubt Surveil will be treated the same way.
Your card is strictly better than Preordain in a couple of ways, so... yeah.
Scry would almost always be better than Surveil unless you're running a "graveyard matters" deck. Scry works in pretty much any deck since there are almost no situations where it's not useful.
Scry would almost always be better than Surveil unless you're running a "graveyard matters" deck. Scry works in pretty much any deck since there are almost no situations where it's not useful.
these really are some of the most boring mechanics ive ever seen. convoke is the only interesting one, and its 20 years old or something..
mentor has something going for it but is kinda just another +1/+1 varient thing.
the rest are.. jesus christ what the hell wizards.. a scry/graveyard dump varient? we've seen this on a million cards before but now its supposed to pass as a key word mechanic? no thanks.
izzet gets.. a WORSE, more restrictive less versatile flashback. infact, it couldve just been flashback!. EG: 3U mana cost. flashback 3U,discard a card:
and golgari? again, appeared on a million cards before and now uniformly key worded.
Scry would almost always be better than Surveil unless you're running a "graveyard matters" deck. Scry works in pretty much any deck since there are almost no situations where it's not useful.
Or if you have Delve cards.
Which fits squarely into "graveyard matters." Self-milling is essential in decks that rely on Delve cards.
these really are some of the most boring mechanics ive ever seen. convoke is the only interesting one, and its 20 years old or something..
mentor has something going for it but is kinda just another +1/+1 varient thing.
the rest are.. jesus christ what the hell wizards.. a scry/graveyard dump varient? we've seen this on a million cards before but now its supposed to pass as a key word mechanic? no thanks.
izzet gets.. a WORSE, more restrictive less versatile flashback. infact, it couldve just been flashback!. EG: 3U mana cost. flashback 3U,discard a card:
and golgari? again, appeared on a million cards before and now uniformly key worded.
these are not "new" mechanics. 100% derivative.
Well at this point MOST mechanics they could come up with that are not busted are derivative.... kind of what happens when you have been going on for over 20 years..
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It's a strictly worse version of Scry, unless you build around it. And Scry is generally pretty much free, tacked onto other effects. I doubt Surveil will be treated the same way.
from the surveil cards spoiled so far they are treating it exactly that way. see:
with scry and surveil sharing so much of the same space i do wonder what they are going to do with scry cards.
unless you are shuffling your library, scry and surveil functionally do the same thing. you dont need to care about the graveyard for it to still work as card selection. neither is 'strictly' better, because neither is better in most, if not all, cases.
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Well at this point MOST mechanics they could come up with that are not busted are derivative.... kind of what happens when you have been going on for over 20 years..
I agree with this, but at the same time making new mechanics that are weaker iterations of past mechanics, like Mentor, is just lazy. They didn't bother to balance these mechanics with each other, so Boros will be at a severe disadvantage in limited, sealed and Standard formats.
1. Scry isn't effectively better or worse than Surveil in a vacuum. It isn't even the difference between Loot and Rummage.
In most standard decks, unless Mill is somehow a strategy, you don't care.
2. This isn't a vacuum, if you're in three colors you can go into Red for Jump-Start (cares about binning instant/sorcery), or into Green for Undergrowth (binning dudes). Similarly any mono-black tacked on Surveil on good effective control cards is just... gravy, if you're in Golgari. Same thing for being in straight Izzet running some mono-blue Surveil to help you Jump-Start nonsense.
3. Surveil, of the five mechanics, flows the easiest into its shared color brethren compared to Mentor (which works nicely with Selesnya things... but is a bit trickier to sell buffing Izzet dudes), Convoke (which honestly doesn't need the help, Convoke is just objectively great), Jump Start (doesn't play at all with Mentor, looks fantastic next to Surveil), or Undergrowth (Like... Convoke makes you play creatures? And binning dudes with Surveil as stated).
Boros will be at a severe disadvantage in limited, sealed and Standard formats.
What a non sequitur. When was a (sub-par) keyword mechanic ever indicative of how much a larger subset of cards would get played in Standard? It's OK if you don't like the mechanic, but the mechanic isn't all that's to the guild. There could still be strong Boros cards that happen to have or not have the mechanic, regardless of how disappointing it is to you. For Limited, if the mechanic had turned out to be debilitating in testing, giving Boros an overall disadvantage, they could have just fixed things by giving Boros a few more cards that are stronger across the board. Making claims about how a mechanic will play in Limited is literally not possible at this point.
Boros will be at a severe disadvantage in limited, sealed and Standard formats.
What a non sequitur. When was a (sub-par) keyword mechanic ever indicative of how much a larger subset of cards would get played in Standard? It's OK if you don't like the mechanic, but the mechanic isn't all that's to the guild. There could still be strong Boros cards that happen to have or not have the mechanic, regardless of how disappointing it is to you. For Limited, if the mechanic had turned out to be debilitating in testing, giving Boros an overall disadvantage, they could have just fixed things by giving Boros a few more cards that are stronger across the board. Making claims about how a mechanic will play in Limited is literally not possible at this point.
Also Mentor is neutral to Boros tactics and designs, compared to say Radiance which was awful. It might change how much you rely on super red deck wins aggro creatures, but... if it's not good you just stick to the red deck wins play, but with white creatures.
Mentor makes you play dudes, it makes your smaller dudes beefier dudes. This is, overall, what Boros likes anyway so they don't really care. It's not as synergistic to Boros as Battalion was. But most things aren't that on the ball.
ChampionSilvos. I challenge you to set a reminder to come back to this thread in three months time and try not to cringe at how far off the mark you are whilst jump start and surveil see tier 1 play in multiple formats.
Scry would almost always be better than Surveil unless you're running a "graveyard matters" deck. Scry works in pretty much any deck since there are almost no situations where it's not useful.
I have to disagree. Surveil is strictly better even if you are not running graveyard matters. The stuff scry puts on the bottom are things you pretty much never want to see come up again. If your library gets shuffled for any reason those cards are still there clogging you up. Surveil takes them out of your deck completely (barring an effect that shuffles your yard into your library)
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What did you expect? Boros is the aggro guild. We won't get something different in Ravnica from Boros. Maybe in another plain. (I doubt it. Most of the legends cares about attacking)
Gruul and Rakdos are the aggro guilds. The original Boros tends to the midrange side of aggro with life gain and other tricks. IT's original guild mechanic was Radiance - which had nothing to do with aggro and mostly existed to play up the multi-coloured matters theme in the original Ravnica: City of Guilds. Radiance was also a nod to their angel-focused lore theme - which has been lost a little in Battlefront and Mentor which focus on their military nature and not their faithful nature. I was kind of hoping to see something more radiance-like interesting this time around.
Overall - I'm disappointed with these new mechanics. I liked the RTR mechanics better generally than the RAV mechanics. Convoke coming back again is bleh - I was hoping to see something more enchantment focused somehow. I think of these mechanics Surveil is the only one I moderately like - and even that I'm not super excited about.
Neat flavourful mechanics is one of the reasons I like Ravnica.. that and hybrid cards (which we haven't confirmed yet) So far the set is disappointing - but I'm still hopeful.
Boros midrange? That may be true for the first Ravnica set but both returns sets settle Boros as aggro guild.
Hence why I said "the original Boros" And yes, Radiance was pretty bad - but I was just hoping for something different in the design space for a guild that has more depth than just more aggro.
Then again - Simic's evolve wound up being used in creative ways - like Fathom Mage which uses counters in a way that's not strictly aggro. Maybe Boros will too.
Honestly though - Mentor seems like a weak mechanic that can't go very far. We might see something like "When CARDNAME mentors a creature - it gains lifelink (or first strike or... whatever) until end of turn." it still feels very uninspired. All of these feel very uninspired. I mean I know they can't hit it out of the park every time - but all the other guild mechanics were super interesting and flavourful (even when they were executed poorly)
What a non sequitur. When was a (sub-par) keyword mechanic ever indicative of how much a larger subset of cards would get played in Standard? It's OK if you don't like the mechanic, but the mechanic isn't all that's to the guild. There could still be strong Boros cards that happen to have or not have the mechanic, regardless of how disappointing it is to you. For Limited, if the mechanic had turned out to be debilitating in testing, giving Boros an overall disadvantage, they could have just fixed things by giving Boros a few more cards that are stronger across the board. Making claims about how a mechanic will play in Limited is literally not possible at this point.
Boros will be designed around a mechanic that's worse than Support and Outlast. That puts Boros as a disadvantage from jump.
ChampionSilvos. I challenge you to set a reminder to come back to this thread in three months time and try not to cringe at how far off the mark you are whilst jump start and surveil see tier 1 play in multiple formats.
Tier 1 play in MULTIPLE formats? Really? I have no doubt that 2 or maybe 3 cards with GNR keywords will be some constructed play outside Standard, but tier 1? You should be cringing at your post right now.
I have to disagree. Surveil is strictly better even if you are not running graveyard matters. The stuff scry puts on the bottom are things you pretty much never want to see come up again. If your library gets shuffled for any reason those cards are still there clogging you up. Surveil takes them out of your deck completely (barring an effect that shuffles your yard into your library)
Not wanting a specific card on a specific turn means you will never want that card? Why is it in your deck if you never want to play it?
I have to disagree. Surveil is strictly better even if you are not running graveyard matters. The stuff scry puts on the bottom are things you pretty much never want to see come up again. If your library gets shuffled for any reason those cards are still there clogging you up. Surveil takes them out of your deck completely (barring an effect that shuffles your yard into your library)
Not wanting a specific card on a specific turn means you will never want that card? Why is it in your deck if you never want to play it?
There are cards that are stronger and weaker depending on the matchup, especially game 1. Also, in every format there are plenary of cards that use the graveyard. A blue control deck may use Snapcaster Mage and not be a graveyard matters deck. A green deck may use eternal witness and not be a graveyard matters deck.
Tier 1 play in MULTIPLE formats? Really? I have no doubt that 2 or maybe 3 cards with GNR keywords will be some constructed play outside Standard, but tier 1? You should be cringing at your post right now.
Tier one 1 in eternal formats is hinged entirely on the individual cards, as I said several times.
If we get a remotely decent instant speed cantrip with this effect, it -will- see eternal play, heck I think an Opt with Surviel instead of scry could replace pre-ordain in Vintage mentor because in Vintage it would fuel Treasure Cruise/Dig
Well my card is just a 1 mana cantrip, those are super good in eternal formats.
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Your card is strictly better than Preordain in a couple of ways, so... yeah.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
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Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
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Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
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WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
That is mostly the point, I was just showing off that the Mechanic could be absolutely broken depending on what they put it on. I am calling that if they have any sort of instant can trip at 1U or lower cost it will probably see banning eventually even if it is just
1U
Instant
Surveil 1
Draw a Card
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I'm not talking about cards, I'm talking about mechanics. You can read, right?
It's a strictly worse version of Scry, unless you build around it. And Scry is generally pretty much free, tacked onto other effects. I doubt Surveil will be treated the same way.
Scry would almost always be better than Surveil unless you're running a "graveyard matters" deck. Scry works in pretty much any deck since there are almost no situations where it's not useful.
Or if you have Delve cards.
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mentor has something going for it but is kinda just another +1/+1 varient thing.
the rest are.. jesus christ what the hell wizards.. a scry/graveyard dump varient? we've seen this on a million cards before but now its supposed to pass as a key word mechanic? no thanks.
izzet gets.. a WORSE, more restrictive less versatile flashback. infact, it couldve just been flashback!. EG: 3U mana cost. flashback 3U,discard a card:
and golgari? again, appeared on a million cards before and now uniformly key worded.
these are not "new" mechanics. 100% derivative.
Closer to Thought Scour than preordain and that's the nuts in Death's Shadow so yes, I think bankable...
Which fits squarely into "graveyard matters." Self-milling is essential in decks that rely on Delve cards.
Well at this point MOST mechanics they could come up with that are not busted are derivative.... kind of what happens when you have been going on for over 20 years..
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
from the surveil cards spoiled so far they are treating it exactly that way. see:
Dissolve
Sinister Sabotage
with scry and surveil sharing so much of the same space i do wonder what they are going to do with scry cards.
unless you are shuffling your library, scry and surveil functionally do the same thing. you dont need to care about the graveyard for it to still work as card selection. neither is 'strictly' better, because neither is better in most, if not all, cases.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
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WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I agree with this, but at the same time making new mechanics that are weaker iterations of past mechanics, like Mentor, is just lazy. They didn't bother to balance these mechanics with each other, so Boros will be at a severe disadvantage in limited, sealed and Standard formats.
In most standard decks, unless Mill is somehow a strategy, you don't care.
2. This isn't a vacuum, if you're in three colors you can go into Red for Jump-Start (cares about binning instant/sorcery), or into Green for Undergrowth (binning dudes). Similarly any mono-black tacked on Surveil on good effective control cards is just... gravy, if you're in Golgari. Same thing for being in straight Izzet running some mono-blue Surveil to help you Jump-Start nonsense.
3. Surveil, of the five mechanics, flows the easiest into its shared color brethren compared to Mentor (which works nicely with Selesnya things... but is a bit trickier to sell buffing Izzet dudes), Convoke (which honestly doesn't need the help, Convoke is just objectively great), Jump Start (doesn't play at all with Mentor, looks fantastic next to Surveil), or Undergrowth (Like... Convoke makes you play creatures? And binning dudes with Surveil as stated).
What a non sequitur. When was a (sub-par) keyword mechanic ever indicative of how much a larger subset of cards would get played in Standard? It's OK if you don't like the mechanic, but the mechanic isn't all that's to the guild. There could still be strong Boros cards that happen to have or not have the mechanic, regardless of how disappointing it is to you. For Limited, if the mechanic had turned out to be debilitating in testing, giving Boros an overall disadvantage, they could have just fixed things by giving Boros a few more cards that are stronger across the board. Making claims about how a mechanic will play in Limited is literally not possible at this point.
Mentor makes you play dudes, it makes your smaller dudes beefier dudes. This is, overall, what Boros likes anyway so they don't really care. It's not as synergistic to Boros as Battalion was. But most things aren't that on the ball.
I have to disagree. Surveil is strictly better even if you are not running graveyard matters. The stuff scry puts on the bottom are things you pretty much never want to see come up again. If your library gets shuffled for any reason those cards are still there clogging you up. Surveil takes them out of your deck completely (barring an effect that shuffles your yard into your library)
Gruul and Rakdos are the aggro guilds. The original Boros tends to the midrange side of aggro with life gain and other tricks. IT's original guild mechanic was Radiance - which had nothing to do with aggro and mostly existed to play up the multi-coloured matters theme in the original Ravnica: City of Guilds. Radiance was also a nod to their angel-focused lore theme - which has been lost a little in Battlefront and Mentor which focus on their military nature and not their faithful nature. I was kind of hoping to see something more radiance-like interesting this time around.
Overall - I'm disappointed with these new mechanics. I liked the RTR mechanics better generally than the RAV mechanics. Convoke coming back again is bleh - I was hoping to see something more enchantment focused somehow. I think of these mechanics Surveil is the only one I moderately like - and even that I'm not super excited about.
Neat flavourful mechanics is one of the reasons I like Ravnica.. that and hybrid cards (which we haven't confirmed yet) So far the set is disappointing - but I'm still hopeful.
Hence why I said "the original Boros" And yes, Radiance was pretty bad - but I was just hoping for something different in the design space for a guild that has more depth than just more aggro.
Then again - Simic's evolve wound up being used in creative ways - like Fathom Mage which uses counters in a way that's not strictly aggro. Maybe Boros will too.
Honestly though - Mentor seems like a weak mechanic that can't go very far. We might see something like "When CARDNAME mentors a creature - it gains lifelink (or first strike or... whatever) until end of turn." it still feels very uninspired. All of these feel very uninspired. I mean I know they can't hit it out of the park every time - but all the other guild mechanics were super interesting and flavourful (even when they were executed poorly)
Boros will be designed around a mechanic that's worse than Support and Outlast. That puts Boros as a disadvantage from jump.
Tier 1 play in MULTIPLE formats? Really? I have no doubt that 2 or maybe 3 cards with GNR keywords will be some constructed play outside Standard, but tier 1? You should be cringing at your post right now.
Anything can be good in Limited.
Not wanting a specific card on a specific turn means you will never want that card? Why is it in your deck if you never want to play it?
There are cards that are stronger and weaker depending on the matchup, especially game 1. Also, in every format there are plenary of cards that use the graveyard. A blue control deck may use Snapcaster Mage and not be a graveyard matters deck. A green deck may use eternal witness and not be a graveyard matters deck.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Tier one 1 in eternal formats is hinged entirely on the individual cards, as I said several times.
If we get a remotely decent instant speed cantrip with this effect, it -will- see eternal play, heck I think an Opt with Surviel instead of scry could replace pre-ordain in Vintage mentor because in Vintage it would fuel Treasure Cruise/Dig
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