Ok someone please tell me I am wrong here. If I have Brudiclad and Precursor Golem on the field, and enough mana to play Cackling Counterpart twice (once before and once after Brudiclad turns all my tokens into copies of the copied Precursor Golem), I can attack with 108 golems. If I calculated this correctly, I will need to start building this deck immediately.
I don't think this is correct: You start with 1 precurser and two tokens. You use Cackling Counterpart and get two additional tokens and one precurser wich makes two more -> you have two cursers and 6 tokens. Brudiclad turns all into precursers so you'll have 8. You cast Counterpart again to make 8 more precursers wich create 16 tokens -> you end with 16 cursers and 16 tokens
My math was indeed wrong. However I think it will be something like 216 tokens in the end. Here is how I think it works (I might be wrong though):
1) I cast Cackling Counterpart and have 8 tokens (two Precursors and 6 tokens).
2) Enter combat, Brudiclad triggers, creating a myr and turning the myr plus all the tokens into Precursors. I now have 9 Precursor Golem.
3) I recast Cackling Counterpart (or Fated Infatuation), targeting a Precursor. Each Precursor Golem triggers, putting a copy of the spell on the stack for each other Golem. That is: the original spell, plus 8 copies, plus 8*8 copies.
4) Finally, I get two Golems per copied Precursor. I end up with 9*8*3 Golems, which are 216 3/3 haste dudes.
5) Attack for the win.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Yes, you need to be able to cast one clone spell in your combat phase. You could, however, copy the Golems in your first main with Rite of Replication instead of Cackling Counterpart, and then Cackling Counterpart them after Brudiclads trigger resolves. But that would probably violate the Geneva Convention.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Ok someone please tell me I am wrong here. If I have Brudiclad and Precursor Golem on the field, and enough mana to play Cackling Counterpart twice (once before and once after Brudiclad turns all my tokens into copies of the copied Precursor Golem), I can attack with 108 golems. If I calculated this correctly, I will need to start building this deck immediately.
I don't think this is correct: You start with 1 precurser and two tokens. You use Cackling Counterpart and get two additional tokens and one precurser wich makes two more -> you have two cursers and 6 tokens. Brudiclad turns all into precursers so you'll have 8. You cast Counterpart again to make 8 more precursers wich create 16 tokens -> you end with 16 cursers and 16 tokens
My math was indeed wrong. However I think it will be something like 216 tokens in the end. Here is how I think it works (I might be wrong though):
1) I cast Cackling Counterpart and have 8 tokens (two Precursors and 6 tokens).
2) Enter combat, Brudiclad triggers, creating a myr and turning the myr plus all the tokens into Precursors. I now have 9 Precursor Golem.
3) I recast Cackling Counterpart (or Fated Infatuation), targeting a Precursor. Each Precursor Golem triggers, putting a copy of the spell on the stack for each other Golem. That is: the original spell, plus 8 copies, plus 8*8 copies.
4) Finally, I get two Golems per copied Precursor. I end up with 9*8*3 Golems, which are 216 3/3 haste dudes.
5) Attack for the win.
Pretty sure each golem would have 9 Counterparts targeting it. Don't know where you're getting the 8*8. Precursor only triggers on a spell being cast, not on being targeted by a spell copy. So the first golem is targeted, and each of the 9 golems triggers to copy the spell for each of the other 8 golems. You get a total of 9 spells per each of the 9 golems, 81 token copies entering, each triggering and creating 2 more golems a piece, or 162. So in total, you have 252 3/3s, assuming you started this with just a single Precursor (and it's two 3/3s) getting copied precombat.
Ok someone please tell me I am wrong here. If I have Brudiclad and Precursor Golem on the field, and enough mana to play Cackling Counterpart twice (once before and once after Brudiclad turns all my tokens into copies of the copied Precursor Golem), I can attack with 108 golems. If I calculated this correctly, I will need to start building this deck immediately.
I don't think this is correct: You start with 1 precurser and two tokens. You use Cackling Counterpart and get two additional tokens and one precurser wich makes two more -> you have two cursers and 6 tokens. Brudiclad turns all into precursers so you'll have 8. You cast Counterpart again to make 8 more precursers wich create 16 tokens -> you end with 16 cursers and 16 tokens
My math was indeed wrong. However I think it will be something like 216 tokens in the end. Here is how I think it works (I might be wrong though):
1) I cast Cackling Counterpart and have 8 tokens (two Precursors and 6 tokens).
2) Enter combat, Brudiclad triggers, creating a myr and turning the myr plus all the tokens into Precursors. I now have 9 Precursor Golem.
3) I recast Cackling Counterpart (or Fated Infatuation), targeting a Precursor. Each Precursor Golem triggers, putting a copy of the spell on the stack for each other Golem. That is: the original spell, plus 8 copies, plus 8*8 copies.
4) Finally, I get two Golems per copied Precursor. I end up with 9*8*3 Golems, which are 216 3/3 haste dudes.
5) Attack for the win.
Pretty sure each golem would have 9 Counterparts targeting it. Don't know where you're getting the 8*8. Precursor only triggers on a spell being cast, not on being targeted by a spell copy. So the first golem is targeted, and each of the 9 golems triggers to copy the spell for each of the other 8 golems. You get a total of 9 spells per each of the 9 golems, 81 token copies entering, each triggering and creating 2 more golems a piece, or 162. So in total, you have 252 3/3s, assuming you started this with just a single Precursor (and it's two 3/3s) getting copied precombat.
I thought each Golem only copies the spell for each other Golem, just as you said. So if you have 9 Golems you get 8 copies of the spell (plus the original spell). Hence, you have a total of 9 triggers times 8 copies each. I might be wrong though. (In any case my calculation from two posts ago was wrong again, because I forgot the original spell. It should be 219 Golems in the end. Or you are right and we get 252. In any case, we get an obscene amount of Golems that should end most games on the spot if they get to attack succesfully).
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Oh, my bad, my mistake was assuming the initial target gets extra spells targeting it. So if you have 9 golems and target one with a copy spell, all 9 trigger for the other 8 golems, but not the initial one. So you have 8 golems with 9 spells each, and one golem with 1 spell. So it should be 73 total spells resolving, not 81. So after the resolution of those spells, you have 73 more Precursors, each of which make 2 golems for a total of 146, plus the original 9, which is 228. Pretty sure that's my final answer. But yes, probably enough to take out 3 players at once.
Oh, my bad, my mistake was assuming the initial target gets extra spells targeting it. So if you have 9 golems and target one with a copy spell, all 9 trigger for the other 8 golems, but not the initial one. So you have 8 golems with 9 spells each, and one golem with 1 spell. So it should be 73 total spells resolving, not 81. So after the resolution of those spells, you have 73 more Precursors, each of which make 2 golems for a total of 146, plus the original 9, which is 228. Pretty sure that's my final answer. But yes, probably enough to take out 3 players at once.
I think that's it. Hilarious. Excuse me while I build this deck.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Oh, my bad, my mistake was assuming the initial target gets extra spells targeting it. So if you have 9 golems and target one with a copy spell, all 9 trigger for the other 8 golems, but not the initial one. So you have 8 golems with 9 spells each, and one golem with 1 spell. So it should be 73 total spells resolving, not 81. So after the resolution of those spells, you have 73 more Precursors, each of which make 2 golems for a total of 146, plus the original 9, which is 228. Pretty sure that's my final answer. But yes, probably enough to take out 3 players at once.
I think that's it. Hilarious. Excuse me while I build this deck.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Unless this was a typo, this guy can turn any token into a creature token. That means gold, clue, and treasure tokens can turn into creature tokens and vice versa.
I hate to burst everybody's bubble, but the gatherer rules under Precursor Golem state "The copies that Precursor Golem’s second ability creates are created on the stack, so they’re not 'cast.' Abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell (like Precursor Golem’s second ability itself) won’t trigger."
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I hate to burst everybody's bubble, but the gatherer rules under Precursor Golem state "The copies that Precursor Golem’s second ability creates are created on the stack, so they’re not 'cast.' Abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell (like Precursor Golem’s second ability itself) won’t trigger."
It's still a stupid amount of copies. Trust us. Whenever I've been miscounting, it's because I'm undershooting how many copies are made.
I hate to burst everybody's bubble, but the gatherer rules under Precursor Golem state "The copies that Precursor Golem’s second ability creates are created on the stack, so they’re not 'cast.' Abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell (like Precursor Golem’s second ability itself) won’t trigger."
That was definitely factored in to the math. (Otherwise, multiple Precursor Golems would create an infinite loop.) But even just a small handful of Precursor Golems makes things spiral out of control wildly. The thing you've got to remember about Precursor Golem is that its trigger doesn't set the number of copies it makes until it starts resolving. That's when it checks how many golems there are. If the number has changed between the ability being triggered and it resolving, it copies the spell to reflect the new number of golems. So in the scenario of having multiple Precursor Golems, targeting them with a spell that makes a copy of them will cause an exponential amount of copies to be made, since the number of golems keeps going up as each Precursor Golem trigger resolves.
Even if you only have two Precursor Golems, and no other golems, casting Cackling Counterpart on one leaves you with sixteen golems.
When you cast Cackling Counterpart, both Precursor Golems trigger. When the first trigger resolves, there's only one other golem to target, so you only get one copy of Cackling Counterpart, which makes one Precursor Golem, who comes with two generic golem tokens. You now have 3 Precursor Golems and 2 generic golems, for a total of 5, one of which is still being targeted by a yet-to-resolve Cackling Counterpart. Then the second Precursor Golem trigger resolves, and it sees 4 golems to radiate the spell to. When those Cackling Counterpart copies resolve, you get 2 additional generic golems, and 2 Precursor Golems, which together make 4 of their own generic golems. You now have 5 Precursor Golems and 8 generic golems, for a total of 13. Now, finally, the original, actual Cackling Counterpart resolves, making 1 more Precursor Golem, who makes 2 more generic golems. You now have 6 Precursor Golems and 10 generic golems, for a total of 16.
And that's just with two Precursor Golems to start with. The number grows exponentially as you add more Precursor Golems. If you start with nine as the others are suggesting (or, heaven forbid, double digits), then you'll end up with enough golems to form your own sovereign golem nation.
This question might have been answered somewhere, but couldn't find the answer then.
My opponent has Brudiclad equipped with Helm of the Host. On entering the beginning of combat step he makes a copy of Brudiclad with the Helm. My question then is: does the Brudiclad copy then trigger its own "create a token" and "copy" ability? And making these copies, during the same beginning of combat step, do these abilities just trigger indefinately? I highly doubt this is the case, but basically I guess I don't fully understand how the beginning of combat step works?
Nope. All beginning-of-combat triggers occur at the same moment and only once per combat step, so by the time Helm of the Host's trigger resolves, the copy has missed the chance to trigger its abilities.
If you choose to make all your tokens copies of token-Jace, those new Jaces go to the graveyard because they are Planeswalkers without any loyalty counters.
This is incorrect. This states that the copies of Jace come into play exactly as Jace is printed, i.e. with 3 loyalty counters placed on them.
If you choose to make all your tokens copies of token-Jace, those new Jaces go to the graveyard because they are Planeswalkers without any loyalty counters.
This is incorrect. This states that the copies of Jace come into play exactly as Jace is printed, i.e. with 3 loyalty counters placed on them.
Actually the first quote is correct. The key difference is what is happening. The tokens are not entering the battlefield, so they do not enter with 3 loyalty counters. The tokens are already on the field and would become Jace, meaning they don't lose or gain any counters. This would leave all tokens with 0 loyalty and thus go to the graveyard.
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1) I cast Cackling Counterpart and have 8 tokens (two Precursors and 6 tokens).
2) Enter combat, Brudiclad triggers, creating a myr and turning the myr plus all the tokens into Precursors. I now have 9 Precursor Golem.
3) I recast Cackling Counterpart (or Fated Infatuation), targeting a Precursor. Each Precursor Golem triggers, putting a copy of the spell on the stack for each other Golem. That is: the original spell, plus 8 copies, plus 8*8 copies.
4) Finally, I get two Golems per copied Precursor. I end up with 9*8*3 Golems, which are 216 3/3 haste dudes.
5) Attack for the win.
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
why not use Clone Legion instead of Cackling Counterpart?
edit: it needs to be Instant, sorry.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
Pick any dude in your graveyard, make all your tokens into that dude.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Pretty sure each golem would have 9 Counterparts targeting it. Don't know where you're getting the 8*8. Precursor only triggers on a spell being cast, not on being targeted by a spell copy. So the first golem is targeted, and each of the 9 golems triggers to copy the spell for each of the other 8 golems. You get a total of 9 spells per each of the 9 golems, 81 token copies entering, each triggering and creating 2 more golems a piece, or 162. So in total, you have 252 3/3s, assuming you started this with just a single Precursor (and it's two 3/3s) getting copied precombat.
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Apparently it's more than that. Way, way more. As in, about 4000 more: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/796449-precursor-golems-and-copy-creature-spells
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
Commander: *Five Color Fun-Stuff *Grixis Artifacts *Beast Tribal
Brawl: To Be Decided At Eldraine Release!
WUStandard God-Pharoah's GiftWU
GModern Tooth and NailG
UGModern TurboFogUG
WUBRGCommander The Ur-DragonWUBRG
It's still a stupid amount of copies. Trust us. Whenever I've been miscounting, it's because I'm undershooting how many copies are made.
Even if you only have two Precursor Golems, and no other golems, casting Cackling Counterpart on one leaves you with sixteen golems.
When you cast Cackling Counterpart, both Precursor Golems trigger. When the first trigger resolves, there's only one other golem to target, so you only get one copy of Cackling Counterpart, which makes one Precursor Golem, who comes with two generic golem tokens. You now have 3 Precursor Golems and 2 generic golems, for a total of 5, one of which is still being targeted by a yet-to-resolve Cackling Counterpart. Then the second Precursor Golem trigger resolves, and it sees 4 golems to radiate the spell to. When those Cackling Counterpart copies resolve, you get 2 additional generic golems, and 2 Precursor Golems, which together make 4 of their own generic golems. You now have 5 Precursor Golems and 8 generic golems, for a total of 13. Now, finally, the original, actual Cackling Counterpart resolves, making 1 more Precursor Golem, who makes 2 more generic golems. You now have 6 Precursor Golems and 10 generic golems, for a total of 16.
And that's just with two Precursor Golems to start with. The number grows exponentially as you add more Precursor Golems. If you start with nine as the others are suggesting (or, heaven forbid, double digits), then you'll end up with enough golems to form your own sovereign golem nation.
May I introduce you to Vile Aggregate?
Other great creatures that finish the game if you can a couple copies include:
Stalking Vengeance
Tidespout Tyrant
Utvara Hellkite
Angrath's Marauders
Borderland Behemoth
Actually the first quote is correct. The key difference is what is happening. The tokens are not entering the battlefield, so they do not enter with 3 loyalty counters. The tokens are already on the field and would become Jace, meaning they don't lose or gain any counters. This would leave all tokens with 0 loyalty and thus go to the graveyard.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans