I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
To add on to what was already said about them not all needing a Spark to rival OG planeswalkers, the lore has it that there was an inter-planar war called the Elder Dragon War, of which we don't know much about except that it involved the Elder Dragons. This could now mean a war between Bolas and Ugin, like the Antiquities War between Urza and Mishra, but Vorthos's traditionally assumed that they knew how to make planar portals/bridges like the ones Phyrexia used to invade Dominaria. In fact, IIRC Chromium later allied himself with a human Planeswalker in order to leave Dominaria because he was sick and tired of the Ice Age.
Interplanar travel was simply easier once upon a time, and its understandable that this can cause confusion for those new to the older lore.
More garbage, this set is going to be tough to sell.
Sell to whom? It's geared towards newer players.
well, you know, customers, people who buy packs and singles from us, the stores who crack packs.
Interesting. I guess that explains why you were so hard on Dominaria.
Yes, quite so, I'm in huge conflict with this set. In general, I'm just not fond of cracking boxes for 2 or 3 chase mythics because all the other cards are trash compared to them. They might be interesting, I won't argue with that, but they are still trash compared to karn, teferi and history. Even worse is the aftermath and the bad feeling of knowing that those who bought their 50€ karns and 25€ mox ambers just lost a ton of money in the long run due to unjustified hype and emotional blindness. It's like battle for Zendikar, except karn and teferi are counted as expeditions.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
Unfortunately for zirilan, lathliss comes in 3rd at the dragon token making Olympics behind utvara hellkite and arguably skyline despot.
Lathliss's dragon-creation ability is a triggered ability whenever any dragon you control enters the battlefield. I think that far more abusable in EDH than Utavara Hellkite (requires an attack) and Skyline Despot (controller's upkeep trigger plus monarch dependency). I would put her token creation ability at #1 or #2 of the three.
Hey now, utavra hellkite is a stronger effect. It triggers every Dragon attack even the turn You cast it. It can also be cloned so its its own army in a can, is potentially useable immediately, and doesn't even demand you go all dragons because even one other Dragon plus it gets insane fast. This is a sweet 6/6 flier for 6 and is a nice Dragon tribal commander, but it's no utvara hellkite. That think costs 8 for a reason.
How is Utvara Hellkite usable immediately short of haste effects like Dragon Tempest? In the absence of haste effects, Utvara cannot do anything until you get to attack. In multiplayer EDH, that player is going to be a target. At least with Lathliss, you could use an instant effect to try to get another dragon in if Lathliss gets eliminated. Utvara Hellkite would go well in an Lathliss EDH deck though.
Can't you use her with dragonstorm and scourge of Valkas to deal some massive damage?
Yes, and that makes her abusable. Of course, in multiplayer EDH, that puts a bullseye on her and her controller, but if you can fire off an instant effect to cast Dragonstorm or Valkas, you can get the triggered ability to occur.
More garbage, this set is going to be tough to sell.
Core sets traditionally serve three purposes:
1) Expansions were meant for "experts", while Core Sets cards were meant for intermediate players.
2) Hose cards, allowing WotC to assess and add cards that could counter colors or specific tournament deck types without damaging the design of an expansion.
3) All the "left over" cards of other planes/expansion could go in here, such as Herald of the Pantheon.
More garbage, this set is going to be tough to sell.
Core sets traditionally serve three purposes:
1) Expansions were meant for "experts", while Core Sets cards were meant for intermediate players.
WotC also explicitly said when they announced the return of Core sets that they are bringing them back because they recognize the need for a newbie friendly set (like the old Portal expansions). If nothing else, Core sets tend to have a more general fantasy aesthetic that new players find familiar and relatable in a way that Kaladesh, for instance, is not. Or for a more extreme example, Mirrodin/New Phyrexia, which is borderline sci-fi. Dragons might not appeal to enfranchised players because we understand the mana curve better, but new players love nothing more than to beat you down with a good old Shivan Dragon. You just can't (reliably) please established players with things meant to draw in new players, and it isn't the point of this kind of set.
You just can't (reliably) please established players with things meant to draw in new players, and it isn't the point of this kind of set.
I agree for the most part. But at a point when the number of products designed for the new player far outweighs what comes out for the established player, things seem far out of whack.
I'm going to veer slightly off topic here:
Products for the new player:
Core Set
Battlebond/Conspiracy (Draft Set)
Planeswalker Decks
Deck Builder's Toolkit
Challenger Decks
Gift Box
Theme Booster Pack
Global Series Deck
Welcome Deck
Booster Battle Pack
For the established player:
Expansion Sets
Masters Set
Commander decks
Signature Spellbook
It just seems a little unbalanced if you ask me. I understand WotC has a fine line to stride but it seems they are erring on the side of caution and throwing a lot of stuff out there for the newbs. I personally would like to see a more "sophisticated" Core Set. Maybe that is what Serafiend is trying to get across. Maybe not, I'd ask him/her.
To swing it back more on topic:
Is there anyone besides me disappointed in the Asmadi artwork on this card? I was just thinking it should be more fear inspiring.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Vaevictis is almost a Jund hugs card. He makes your opponents sacrifice stuff, but can also replace it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
If you want monetary value with dragons just horde a bunch of Draconic Domination precons and never open them
(Seriously how did that become the chase precon)
Also huge tip for building Lathliss: Throw in all the discounts you can. Imagine bringing dragon spells down to 2 mana with cards like Semblance Anvil and Urza's Incubator and then just Dragonstorming off of casting her and a couple other dragons in hand. Now that is a dream play, hehehe.
I'll give you that these are all absolutely positioned as products for new players, though Core Sets admittedly serve a dual purpose of being the place where they can always safely put reprints.
Admittedly these qualify as a "new player" thing, but not so much as a "product." They filled the void left by core sets after those disappeared, and are technically given away to new players for free. They're now also ostensibly part of the new core sets.
These, on the other hand, I'd argue aren't strictly meant for new players. Draft sets are a casual product. They aren't meant for enfranchised competitive players, but are just as much for enfranchised casual players as they are for new players, in much the same way Commander decks are. As for Challenger Decks, they aren't so much for brand new players, but more for established casual players that want an onramp to competitive Standard.
Global Series products aren't really anything more than region-locked Planeswalker decks, so I wouldn't count them as a separate product. Gift Boxes are less for new players than for new buyers. They aren't positioned as anything that's actually helpful for a new player, and they don't even offer any real value to a new player like they used to. They're just a quick cash-grab for uneducated buyers looking for an easy "gift" product to give to a Magic player they know.
My point being that it's less imbalanced than you think. And aside from Planeswalker decks (and I guess Booster Battle Packs if they keep making them), basically all of the "new player" products are released once a year, where enfranchised players get three non-Core expansions a year, and what's looking like at least one Masters set a year, on top of whatever casual format products (Commander, Battlebond) are released each year.
Sell to whom? It's geared towards newer players.
well, you know, customers, people who buy packs and singles from us, the stores who crack packs.
Interesting. I guess that explains why you were so hard on Dominaria.
To add on to what was already said about them not all needing a Spark to rival OG planeswalkers, the lore has it that there was an inter-planar war called the Elder Dragon War, of which we don't know much about except that it involved the Elder Dragons. This could now mean a war between Bolas and Ugin, like the Antiquities War between Urza and Mishra, but Vorthos's traditionally assumed that they knew how to make planar portals/bridges like the ones Phyrexia used to invade Dominaria. In fact, IIRC Chromium later allied himself with a human Planeswalker in order to leave Dominaria because he was sick and tired of the Ice Age.
Interplanar travel was simply easier once upon a time, and its understandable that this can cause confusion for those new to the older lore.
Yes, quite so, I'm in huge conflict with this set. In general, I'm just not fond of cracking boxes for 2 or 3 chase mythics because all the other cards are trash compared to them. They might be interesting, I won't argue with that, but they are still trash compared to karn, teferi and history. Even worse is the aftermath and the bad feeling of knowing that those who bought their 50€ karns and 25€ mox ambers just lost a ton of money in the long run due to unjustified hype and emotional blindness. It's like battle for Zendikar, except karn and teferi are counted as expeditions.
well thats an interesting twitst from triple breathing he was in the original.
The Dragon Queen sadly can't really be abused.
Yeah, dragons are always hard to sell and no one ever buys them.
yeah people buy them alright, we're happy to get 50 cent in the eu for mythic ones if we're lucky.
Can't you use her with dragonstorm and scourge of Valkas to deal some massive damage?
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
But which do you find first?
Lathliss's dragon-creation ability is a triggered ability whenever any dragon you control enters the battlefield. I think that far more abusable in EDH than Utavara Hellkite (requires an attack) and Skyline Despot (controller's upkeep trigger plus monarch dependency). I would put her token creation ability at #1 or #2 of the three.
How is Utvara Hellkite usable immediately short of haste effects like Dragon Tempest? In the absence of haste effects, Utvara cannot do anything until you get to attack. In multiplayer EDH, that player is going to be a target. At least with Lathliss, you could use an instant effect to try to get another dragon in if Lathliss gets eliminated. Utvara Hellkite would go well in an Lathliss EDH deck though.
Yes, and that makes her abusable. Of course, in multiplayer EDH, that puts a bullseye on her and her controller, but if you can fire off an instant effect to cast Dragonstorm or Valkas, you can get the triggered ability to occur.
Core sets traditionally serve three purposes:
1) Expansions were meant for "experts", while Core Sets cards were meant for intermediate players.
2) Hose cards, allowing WotC to assess and add cards that could counter colors or specific tournament deck types without damaging the design of an expansion.
3) All the "left over" cards of other planes/expansion could go in here, such as Herald of the Pantheon.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
WotC also explicitly said when they announced the return of Core sets that they are bringing them back because they recognize the need for a newbie friendly set (like the old Portal expansions). If nothing else, Core sets tend to have a more general fantasy aesthetic that new players find familiar and relatable in a way that Kaladesh, for instance, is not. Or for a more extreme example, Mirrodin/New Phyrexia, which is borderline sci-fi. Dragons might not appeal to enfranchised players because we understand the mana curve better, but new players love nothing more than to beat you down with a good old Shivan Dragon. You just can't (reliably) please established players with things meant to draw in new players, and it isn't the point of this kind of set.
I agree for the most part. But at a point when the number of products designed for the new player far outweighs what comes out for the established player, things seem far out of whack.
I'm going to veer slightly off topic here:
Products for the new player:
Core Set
Battlebond/Conspiracy (Draft Set)
Planeswalker Decks
Deck Builder's Toolkit
Challenger Decks
Gift Box
Theme Booster Pack
Global Series Deck
Welcome Deck
Booster Battle Pack
For the established player:
Expansion Sets
Masters Set
Commander decks
Signature Spellbook
It just seems a little unbalanced if you ask me. I understand WotC has a fine line to stride but it seems they are erring on the side of caution and throwing a lot of stuff out there for the newbs. I personally would like to see a more "sophisticated" Core Set. Maybe that is what Serafiend is trying to get across. Maybe not, I'd ask him/her.
To swing it back more on topic:
Is there anyone besides me disappointed in the Asmadi artwork on this card? I was just thinking it should be more fear inspiring.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
You guys know what core sets typically look like, right? Some of the rares and mythics are surprisingly good for a core set.
Vaevictis is almost a Jund hugs card. He makes your opponents sacrifice stuff, but can also replace it.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I like your elder dragons better.
If all you are looking for is monetary value from your cards then I don't know what to tell you.
(Seriously how did that become the chase precon)
Also huge tip for building Lathliss: Throw in all the discounts you can. Imagine bringing dragon spells down to 2 mana with cards like Semblance Anvil and Urza's Incubator and then just Dragonstorming off of casting her and a couple other dragons in hand. Now that is a dream play, hehehe.
Lathliss might get a spot too, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Admittedly these qualify as a "new player" thing, but not so much as a "product." They filled the void left by core sets after those disappeared, and are technically given away to new players for free. They're now also ostensibly part of the new core sets.
These, on the other hand, I'd argue aren't strictly meant for new players. Draft sets are a casual product. They aren't meant for enfranchised competitive players, but are just as much for enfranchised casual players as they are for new players, in much the same way Commander decks are. As for Challenger Decks, they aren't so much for brand new players, but more for established casual players that want an onramp to competitive Standard.
Global Series products aren't really anything more than region-locked Planeswalker decks, so I wouldn't count them as a separate product. Gift Boxes are less for new players than for new buyers. They aren't positioned as anything that's actually helpful for a new player, and they don't even offer any real value to a new player like they used to. They're just a quick cash-grab for uneducated buyers looking for an easy "gift" product to give to a Magic player they know.
My point being that it's less imbalanced than you think. And aside from Planeswalker decks (and I guess Booster Battle Packs if they keep making them), basically all of the "new player" products are released once a year, where enfranchised players get three non-Core expansions a year, and what's looking like at least one Masters set a year, on top of whatever casual format products (Commander, Battlebond) are released each year.
The impression I got was that he either owns a store or works for one, hence this weird outlook he has with sets.
We should see the other 3 later on
And a new goodie for either of the ur-dragons for edh
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries