Now it's all coming together. Damping Sphere's first ability doesn't do nothing in limited!!!( I would have been really pissed if that would have been the case)
If you need 3 lands to activate, and needs to tap this land, then you need more than 4 lands in play before this can actually help you ramp. Maybe you can make Josu unplayable as early as this land could help pay his kicker cost ( 6 swamps + this = 9 mana, 7 Swamps + this = 10 black mana + 1 untaped land ). Sure, it is playable for its hate on mana hability
Humm not that bad, but could be better without being outright broken. I would like it way better if its hability custed 2
this way on turn 4 you could tap for it while you have 3 swamps to add BBBBBB (6). It wouldn't be outright broken, but maybe it could make Death cloud decks really broken in modern.
or if it readed 5, T: Add BB for each basic swamp you control.
This way you could tap for 10 black mana on turn 6, something that would be busted on Standard, but would not be as good as turn 3 karn, turn 4 Ugin...
I think people are being a little rough on this card. Sure it's not Cable coffers. But it ads mana on its own unlike coffers, and comes into play untapped unlike Crypt of Agadem. I think for mono black, especially commander or brawl, this is a completely respectable inclusion. And, except for weird corner cases, you weren't ever going to play it outside of mono-black anyway.
I think people are being a little rough on this card. Sure it's not Cable coffers. But it ads mana on its own unlike coffers, and comes into play untapped unlike Crypt of Agadem. I think for mono black, especially commander or brawl, this is a completely respectable inclusion. And, except for weird corner cases, you weren't ever going to play it outside of mono-black anyway.
This give you +1 mana on turn 6 if you managed to hit your land drops.
I think it's incredibly important to remember that this also taps for colorless on it's own. I remember playing MBC in top 8 of a large tournament when Odyssey block was in Type 2, and I had 25 Swamps and 4 Cabal Coffers. I mulliganed a hand with 1 Swamp to get a 6 card hand with 2 Swamps, 2 Cabal Coffers, Corrupt and Mutilate. I drew a 3rd copy of Cabal Coffers as my next land drop and died a few turns later, unable to cast really anything other than a Nantuko Shade I had drawn. I had no mana to pump the shade with, however, so it just chumped. With 2 swamps in play and 3 Coffers, I could only generate 2 mana...from 5 lands. If they tapped for colorless I would have been at least able to slow the low-to-the-ground creatures and stall until I could Corrupt the large one. At least with this I would have been able to cast Mutilate and kill anything x/2. So it's not completely worse.
In fact, if you have to sometimes keep a hand with these in them, these are far better than Cabal Coffers. With 3 Swamps and a coffers, this gets you four mana for four lands. With 2 Swamps and 1 coffers, this nets you no extra mana, so it's completely useless early game.
Number of Swamps | Total Mana with 1 Cabal Coffer | Total Mana with 1 Cabal Stronghold |
0 | 0 | 1
1 | 1 | 2
2|2|3|
3|4|4|
4|6|5|
5|8|7|
6|10|9|
7|12|11|
8|14|13|
9|16|15|
10|18|17|
Sorry, I don't know how to make a table on here, but the point is for turns 1 - 3, the mana advantage goes to Cabal Stronghold, on turn 4 its even, and after that you lose 1 mana. Of course this only applies to decks playing Swamps, but having lost a number of games with Cabal Coffers never really coming online, I just want to point it out.
Weird that it isn't legendary. Perhaps the artifact lands burned Wizards so hard that they avoid printing a historic land here?
They don't make legendary lands that often anymore. Maro explained why once.
Costs 1 extra and doesn't have as much synergy with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (tl;dr: If you play Urborg, your basic lands count, but something like Bojuka Bog or cycling lands or any duals, or, hell, Urborg itself, won't, as they're not basic swamps.), but still, quite playable. Strictly worse than Coffers is still pretty good, it turns out.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Strictly worse than Coffers is still pretty good, it turns out.
Strictly doesnt work like that. the post above you explains why this card can be better in certain circumstances. so coffers might be better, but not strictly better.
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From a competitive standpoint, it may find a niche somewhere, as it can tap for colorless on its own, and is a win more, if a mono black deck does arise.
For EDH, not a lot of decks will run this over Cabal Coffers. They'll run it with it. But this does takes 6 turns to yield 1 extra mana (assuming you have all basic swamps, or turn 7 to have 5 basics of any color, this, and an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), I wouldn't be surprised if it gets looked over for most deck considerations. What really hurts this card is not the basic swamps, but the activation cost: it's just 1 mana too high.
... That being said Boundless Realms with this and Urborg is fun to think about.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The only way this is bad is in direct comparison to Cabal Coffers, and even then it's okay. ETB untapped for colorless is a fabulous starting place. They gave a (worse) Coffers ability the same inherent cost as scry 1. Rejoice, for there is nothing to complain about.
However, this one is worse than Coffers in all circumstances, but still pretty good.
But it's not. When you get stuck at 2 Swamps and 2 Cabal Coffers and I get stuck at 2 Swamps and 2 Cabal Stronghold, I'll win. That's instance where Stronghold is better.
A second instance is suppose you're sitting at 3 Swamps and a Cabal Coffers. I Rain of Tears a Swamp. I effectively just blew up two of your lands. Now suppose you had a Cabal Stronghold instead, I'll still have at least 3 mana after that Rain of Tears. There are many, many instances where tapping for a mana no matter what can be better than Coffers.
Coffers is not better than Stronghold in ALL circumstances. It is definitely not strictly better. It has a lower floor for usability, but Coffers has a much higher power ceiling.
I don't think this is even very good in mono-black EDH. They have repinted/newly printed enough utility lands, that I would recommend playing those over the number of basic swamps you would have to pack to make this useful. This is no Cabal Coffers, not even close to a good "fixed" version. I dub it Crappy Coffers and may it rot in the bargain bin.
This may be less powerful than Cabal Coffers and I wish it didn't have the "basic" part, but design-wise, I like it better than coffers. I just really dislike lands that have the potential to just sit on the battlefield doing nothing at all if you get unlucky.
I hope everyone thinks this is junk so I can pick up copies on the cheap.
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This also doesn't work with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth since it looks for basic swamps. Still, it at least taps for mana as well, has cool art, and will have some Standard and Commander applications.
What about other basics affected by Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? They retain the basic land type, but gain the swamp sub-type.
That works fine, but why you'd even be running a card like this in a non-monoblack deck is perplexing.
I already know I am going to run this in my Grimgrin, Corpse-Born deck. It is a mostly black deck but does run a number of blue sources. And the majority of those are basics. I will almost definitely swap out Crypt of Agadeem for this.
You should honestly keep both. Crypt of Agadeem pulls a lot of weight in the decks I use it in.
This also doesn't work with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth since it looks for basic swamps. Still, it at least taps for mana as well, has cool art, and will have some Standard and Commander applications.
What about other basics affected by Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? They retain the basic land type, but gain the swamp sub-type.
That works fine, but why you'd even be running a card like this in a non-monoblack deck is perplexing.
I already know I am going to run this in my Grimgrin, Corpse-Born deck. It is a mostly black deck but does run a number of blue sources. And the majority of those are basics. I will almost definitely swap out Crypt of Agadeem for this.
You should honestly keep both. Crypt of Agadeem pulls a lot of weight in the decks I use it in.
Eh. I don't think I can. As has been discussed, Stronghold requires basics which means I can't really justify cutting a basic for it. And I feel that in most games, it will be much better than Crypt in most cases based on my current experience with Crypt.
I am freely open to the idea that I am wrong but, if I am, I just go back to Crypt. To give Stronghold a fair shot, I need to keep as many basics as possible.
Unfortunately, the card is a bit too nerfed for my tastes.
I can understand not wanting to reprint Coffers (probably mostly for Modern's sake),
but this really should have cost 2 to activate.
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I think crappy coffers is a good name. Cabal coffers only really got busted when it comboed with Urborg. Played fairly, even cabal only produced bonus mana on turn 5+ in exchange for losing mana turns 1-3. And coming in multiples just ruined it. But add in urborg and suddenly its a mean lean mana producing machine. You could have an overgrown tomb, blood crypt, 2x coffers and urborg on the field and make 9 and still cast red or green splash. That basic clause should keep this mostly forgotten. What decks would really want bonus mana on turns 6+ when real competitive threads have already topped out anyway? With only a basic mana base you can't even build a proper BG land ramp deck and the only payoff in standard right now is utility land base like deserts anyway so you really have competing interests. That limits this to some huge big mono black control or something
I'm not convinced this will find even the rather modest homes that Nykthos and Agadeem did
The question is why is this rare? When Coffers was uncommon? Its not like this is better then coffers most of the time but the opposite (most of the time coffers is the better choice), This should be uncommon or should have been made as a better coffers to warrent its boost to rare.
The question is why is this rare? When Coffers was uncommon? Its not like this is better then coffers most of the time but the opposite (most of the time coffers is the better choice), This should be uncommon or should have been made as a better coffers to warrent its boost to rare.
Coffers should never have been an uncommon, though.
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If you need 3 lands to activate, and needs to tap this land, then you need more than 4 lands in play before this can actually help you ramp. Maybe you can make Josu unplayable as early as this land could help pay his kicker cost ( 6 swamps + this = 9 mana, 7 Swamps + this = 10 black mana + 1 untaped land ). Sure, it is playable for its hate on mana hability
this way on turn 4 you could tap for it while you have 3 swamps to add BBBBBB (6). It wouldn't be outright broken, but maybe it could make Death cloud decks really broken in modern.
or if it readed 5, T: Add BB for each basic swamp you control.
This way you could tap for 10 black mana on turn 6, something that would be busted on Standard, but would not be as good as turn 3 karn, turn 4 Ugin...
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This give you +1 mana on turn 6 if you managed to hit your land drops.
Gilded lotus gives you +3 mana on the same turn.
In fact, if you have to sometimes keep a hand with these in them, these are far better than Cabal Coffers. With 3 Swamps and a coffers, this gets you four mana for four lands. With 2 Swamps and 1 coffers, this nets you no extra mana, so it's completely useless early game.
Number of Swamps | Total Mana with 1 Cabal Coffer | Total Mana with 1 Cabal Stronghold |
0 | 0 | 1
1 | 1 | 2
2|2|3|
3|4|4|
4|6|5|
5|8|7|
6|10|9|
7|12|11|
8|14|13|
9|16|15|
10|18|17|
Sorry, I don't know how to make a table on here, but the point is for turns 1 - 3, the mana advantage goes to Cabal Stronghold, on turn 4 its even, and after that you lose 1 mana. Of course this only applies to decks playing Swamps, but having lost a number of games with Cabal Coffers never really coming online, I just want to point it out.
They don't make legendary lands that often anymore. Maro explained why once.
Costs 1 extra and doesn't have as much synergy with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (tl;dr: If you play Urborg, your basic lands count, but something like Bojuka Bog or cycling lands or any duals, or, hell, Urborg itself, won't, as they're not basic swamps.), but still, quite playable. Strictly worse than Coffers is still pretty good, it turns out.
On phasing:
Strictly doesnt work like that. the post above you explains why this card can be better in certain circumstances. so coffers might be better, but not strictly better.
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For EDH, not a lot of decks will run this over Cabal Coffers. They'll run it with it. But this does takes 6 turns to yield 1 extra mana (assuming you have all basic swamps, or turn 7 to have 5 basics of any color, this, and an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), I wouldn't be surprised if it gets looked over for most deck considerations. What really hurts this card is not the basic swamps, but the activation cost: it's just 1 mana too high.
... That being said Boundless Realms with this and Urborg is fun to think about.
Coffers adds B for every swamp (with Urborg, every land) you control.
This adds B for every basic swamp (with Urborg, every basic land) you control.
Also, strictly doesn't work for some cases, but only some. For instance, tribal, Magnivore, and a few other oddball cases (e.g., Boros Recruit getting hit with Magnetic Mountain while Tundra Wolves isn't, Squire versus Glory Seeker with Wave of Reckoning) generally don't count as far as "strictly" is concerned. However, Glory Seeker is strictly better than Pearled Unicorn because the latter costs 1 more. Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock because it hits more. (And yes, Eye for an Eye exists. That doesn't count.)
Because card interactions are such that a card can be better under certain circumstances.
However, this one is worse than Coffers in all circumstances, but still pretty good.
On phasing:
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But it's not. When you get stuck at 2 Swamps and 2 Cabal Coffers and I get stuck at 2 Swamps and 2 Cabal Stronghold, I'll win. That's instance where Stronghold is better.
A second instance is suppose you're sitting at 3 Swamps and a Cabal Coffers. I Rain of Tears a Swamp. I effectively just blew up two of your lands. Now suppose you had a Cabal Stronghold instead, I'll still have at least 3 mana after that Rain of Tears. There are many, many instances where tapping for a mana no matter what can be better than Coffers.
Coffers is not better than Stronghold in ALL circumstances. It is definitely not strictly better. It has a lower floor for usability, but Coffers has a much higher power ceiling.
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Gilded Lotus also isn't a land.
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You should honestly keep both. Crypt of Agadeem pulls a lot of weight in the decks I use it in.
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I am freely open to the idea that I am wrong but, if I am, I just go back to Crypt. To give Stronghold a fair shot, I need to keep as many basics as possible.
Unfortunately, the card is a bit too nerfed for my tastes.
I can understand not wanting to reprint Coffers (probably mostly for Modern's sake),
but this really should have cost 2 to activate.
Reprint Stasis!
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I'm not convinced this will find even the rather modest homes that Nykthos and Agadeem did
Coffers should never have been an uncommon, though.
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