I really like it on paper. Being only 60 cards and allowing the use of a Planeswalker as your commander really makes it a lot more attractive.
The article also makes a good point about starting into Commander being somewhat daunting if your local playgroups are competitive, and it makes sense to have a bit of a ramp up into it with something like Brawl.
This SOUNDS good until they add "standard rotation" and poof just like that the format becomes worse. Not just becuase of the expiry date but ALSO the lack of good cards to play.
Big negative on the 30 life starting total. This looks like a format that should be 1 v 1, in which case the life total should be at 20.
In a 4-player pod just make it a 40 life starting point. I don't see myself playing this though, unless the "Standard" I get to choose has shocklands and fetchlands and other OP stuff.
This really feels like it should have been an announcement that Frontier was becoming a sanctioned format, it already has a core base and can move from there.
Its adorable that you think Shocks and fetchlands are OP..... Come over to the Vintage/Legacy side some time we will show you REAL power.
I think maybe, MAYBE it will have an audience with very new players, like the ones who want to move from Sealed to Constructed but can't afford or don't want to buy into Standard, until they build a collection for EDH, but unless Wizards makes it a tournament format and shoves it down our throats, I don't see any other way that EDH is not completely superior. people who are fine with rotation and a stupid small card pool for more than one rotation will just play Standard. This is the WotC version of Tiny Leaders/Frontier, and I predict that it will flop as hard as either.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
The Raptors that enter the battlefield after HI resolves aren't indestructible, only the ones that were on the battlefield when it resolved get Indestructible. You can make wave after wave of Raptor if you like (hence all the triggers), but eventually some of the new ones die to damage and eventually a steady state maximum is reached.
Don't think so.
Every polyraptor will make 5 polyraptors before it dies. And every one of those make 5.
It's definitely infinite.
Bah, you're likely right. I put in that disclaimer in hope that I wouldn't get mathed down by people who did the math to prove the combo had a finite state, and as a result of putting in a seeemingly-erroneous disclaimer that's exactly what I got!
One of the main draws for me with Commander is that it is a non-rotating format.
So what about every story about a standard player moving their collection to Commander and/or Modern? Do you not see that?
I'm curious, over the last 3-4 years much of your collection have you been able to move into Modern/EDH? We ain't playing OG Zendikar anymore. Today there are few, if any, good cheap cards like Expedition Map, Journey to Nowhere, and Searing Blaze that are worth holding onto long term. With the exception of a few pushed cards per set, the rest of your Standard cards are, or will be, worthless.
This SOUNDS good until they add "standard rotation" and poof just like that the format becomes worse. Not just becuase of the expiry date but ALSO the lack of good cards to play.
I never understand this type of comment.
The best cards available ARE the good cards. Maybe you could argue there aren't as many interesting interactions to make the format deep for experienced players, but the raw power level is completely irrelevant when everyone is playing the same stuff.
expiry date is a double-edged sword. It's a feel-bad when your deck rotates, but it keeps things fresh, eliminates old broken stuff, problematic synergies, and makes it easier to jump into for new players.
unless Wizards makes it a tournament format and shoves it down our throats, I don't see any other way that EDH is not completely superior.
You know what format is growing fastest right now? Paper pauper. Wizards *hasn't* made it a tournament format - they've been stubbornly resistant to codifying a ruleset for non-MTGO pauper for some reason - but the community is running with it anyway, despite the perspective that other format players might have that their format is superior because of deeper cardpool.
The recent emergence of pauper is a sign that the community is happy to embrace a lower-power lower-cost lower-cardpool alternative, even in the absence of WotC format-pushing.
I'm curious, over the last 3-4 years much of your collection have you been able to move into Modern/EDH? We ain't playing OG Zendikar anymore. Today there are few, if any, good cheap cards like Expedition Map, Journey to Nowhere, and Searing Blaze that are worth holding onto long term. With the exception of a few pushed cards per set, the rest of your Standard cards are, or will be, worthless.
Probably irrelevant, but only one of those cards is EDH viable imo. And it's also a 3.50 common o_O
My store is full of casual commander players and no one was interested in this. Everyone had the same similar opinion that if they are going to play 'commander' they might as well do it with access to all cards.
Maybe if I was a standard player/drafter and had all these cards lying around I could see it but as I exclusively play modern/pauper/commander I own very few cards from current standard so I see no point in buying a load of others to build a deck that will rotate at which point 90% of the cards become worthless in all formats.
One of the main draws for me with Commander is that it is a non-rotating format.
So what about every story about a standard player moving their collection to Commander and/or Modern? Do you not see that?
I'm curious, over the last 3-4 years much of your collection have you been able to move into Modern/EDH? We ain't playing OG Zendikar anymore. Today there are few, if any, good cheap cards like Expedition Map, Journey to Nowhere, and Searing Blaze that are worth holding onto long term. With the exception of a few pushed cards per set, the rest of your Standard cards are, or will be, worthless.
Depends on how you build it and who you play with. I make draft chaft commander decks from standard cards and have just as much fun as I do with more competitive decks, playing with friends who also do the same.
This SOUNDS good until they add "standard rotation" and poof just like that the format becomes worse. Not just becuase of the expiry date but ALSO the lack of good cards to play.
I never understand this type of comment.
The best cards available ARE the good cards. Maybe you could argue there aren't as many interesting interactions to make the format deep for experienced players, but the raw power level is completely irrelevant when everyone is playing the same stuff.
expiry date is a double-edged sword. It's a feel-bad when your deck rotates, but it keeps things fresh, eliminates old broken stuff, problematic synergies, and makes it easier to jump into for new players.
I disagree as long as people have tasted GOOD cards from other formats they will draw the comparison. A card may be good in the pool but NOT feel good to play. Shock is a bad card, No one wants to play shock unless they are forced too. If offered literally ANY other better alternative they will switch in an instant. People draw the same compairsons to almost all cards. A lighting bolt is fun and powerful, and a shock (or shock varrent) is not. What you call "problematic synergies" I call desired features that make the game more fun. Its kept in check by "putting gate keeper cards in the format to keep it fair" like wasteland and force of will. You say "keeps things fresh" I say "Keeps things expensive" You say eliminates broke cards, I say we haven't had any broken cards since the days of Urza's (although I admit skullclamp and sfm skirted that line pretty hard). Making it easier to jump in too, well you can also oh I don't known print good sealed product with lots of tournament competitive stables in them (and in mass). A far more cost effective way to make it easy to get in too.
We see it all the time, Cards that are great in standard simply suck as cards when outside of it. a GOOD card is played in standard and other formats can stand on its own merits. It does not have to be powerful but does have to be fun. Example Silver queen is not a powerful card by any measure but it IS a fun card.
This SOUNDS good until they add "standard rotation" and poof just like that the format becomes worse. Not just becuase of the expiry date but ALSO the lack of good cards to play.
I never understand this type of comment.
The best cards available ARE the good cards. Maybe you could argue there aren't as many interesting interactions to make the format deep for experienced players, but the raw power level is completely irrelevant when everyone is playing the same stuff.
expiry date is a double-edged sword. It's a feel-bad when your deck rotates, but it keeps things fresh, eliminates old broken stuff, problematic synergies, and makes it easier to jump into for new players.
I disagree as long as people have tasted GOOD cards from other formats they will draw the comparison. A card may be good in the pool but NOT feel good to play. Shock is a bad card, No one wants to play shock unless they are forced too. If offered literally ANY other better alternative they will switch in an instant. People draw the same compairsons to almost all cards. A lighting bolt is fun and powerful, and a shock (or shock varrent) is not. What you call "problematic synergies" I call desired features that make the game more fun. Its kept in check by "putting gate keeper cards in the format to keep it fair" like wasteland and force of will. You say "keeps things fresh" I say "Keeps things expensive" You say eliminates broke cards, I say we haven't had any broken cards since the days of Urza's (although I admit skullclamp and sfm skirted that line pretty hard). Making it easier to jump in too, well you can also oh I don't known print good sealed product with lots of tournament competitive stables in them (and in mass). A far more cost effective way to make it easy to get in too.
We see it all the time, Cards that are great in standard simply suck as cards when outside of it. a GOOD card is played in standard and other formats can stand on its own merits. It does not have to be powerful but does have to be fun. Example Silver queen is not a powerful card by any measure but it IS a fun card.
Then why are there Commander players who play Modern or Pauper if the card pool is not as big?
I'm curious, over the last 3-4 years much of your collection have you been able to move into Modern/EDH? We ain't playing OG Zendikar anymore. Today there are few, if any, good cheap cards like Expedition Map, Journey to Nowhere, and Searing Blaze that are worth holding onto long term. With the exception of a few pushed cards per set, the rest of your Standard cards are, or will be, worthless.
Probably irrelevant, but only one of those cards is EDH viable imo. And it's also a 3.50 common o_O
Just trying to point out that valuable commons are a thing of the past. All of them are still great cards for the kitchen table and all have retained value even after reprints. I quick glanced at mtgstocks.com and learned that my random stack of Spreading Seas are worth $4 a piece. That's an awesome feeling. Also, it's a feeling nobody collecting draft commons from Amonkhet/Ixalan will ever feel.
[quote from="draftguy2 »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/790875-brawl-the-format?comment=116"][quote from="DirkGently »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/790875-brawl-the-format?comment=111"][/b] Then why are there Commander players who play Modern or Pauper if the card pool is not as big?
The cards play different in that their is more consistency being allowed to play 4x of the same card adds alittle somthing to the deck and play style and they still have some good cards in said formats. To give you an example the only standard card I feel might fit the bill as "good" currently is fatal push. Thats one lonely good card. Where as in modern/commander/pauper you have options. You should not have to pick the least bad choice you should have choices that are genuine good and hard to choose between. Players want their cup to runnuth over with good choices. IE lots of the cards need to be good both on their own and in very good in their neesh.
I disagree as long as people have tasted GOOD cards from other formats they will draw the comparison. A card may be good in the pool but NOT feel good to play. Shock is a bad card, No one wants to play shock unless they are forced too. If offered literally ANY other better alternative they will switch in an instant. People draw the same compairsons to almost all cards. A lighting bolt is fun and powerful, and a shock (or shock varrent) is not. What you call "problematic synergies" I call desired features that make the game more fun. Its kept in check by "putting gate keeper cards in the format to keep it fair" like wasteland and force of will. You say "keeps things fresh" I say "Keeps things expensive" You say eliminates broke cards, I say we haven't had any broken cards since the days of Urza's (although I admit skullclamp and sfm skirted that line pretty hard). Making it easier to jump in too, well you can also oh I don't known print good sealed product with lots of tournament competitive stables in them (and in mass). A far more cost effective way to make it easy to get in too.
We see it all the time, Cards that are great in standard simply suck as cards when outside of it. a GOOD card is played in standard and other formats can stand on its own merits. It does not have to be powerful but does have to be fun. Example Silver queen is not a powerful card by any measure but it IS a fun card.
I guess it may have to just have to be a difference of opinion, but I see no reason why lightning bolt is inherently more fun than shock. What if wotc had printed "mega-lightning" back in alpha, that did 10 damage for 1 mana? Would that card's existence make lightning bolt "un-fun"? I mean, I get that having a card that actually sucks is not fun to play with, but shock is a good card in an environment without a deep card pool (such as draft, where I have been very happy to play shock, as has anyone else who's any good at the format). The effect is useful and the rate is reasonable. It's not break open where the effect is useless or wood elemental where the rate is ridiculous. Of course people will play better cards if they're available because they want to win and better cards means better chance to win, but it's not because lightning bolt is inherently more fun.
time vault + voltaic key is not fun for most people. Nor is doomday, adnaus, storm, zur, arcum, narset, the plethora of extra turn effects, etc. Some people enjoy that sort of thing, sure, and legacy and vintage (and "competitive" commander, ideally sequestered in some dark corner of the internet) were made for them. For those of us who want a game of magic that involves greater nuance than "threat vs answer", commander exists.
"Rotation keeps things expensive" is ridiculous. As someone with a $20K commander collection (with the cheapest editions of every card, too) I can assure you that no brawl deck is going to put even the tiniest of dents in the cost required to optimize a commander deck.
Making it easier to jump into isn't merely a matter of cost. Playing commander with newer magic players suuuuuuuuucks. They have to read every damn card and they never know what's going on, and they made idiot mistakes. Restricting the card pool to standard goes a LONG way towards cutting down on that knowledge-based barrier to entry.
The problem I have with it is that, after Dominaria, how many Legendary Creatures are going to be in Standard? We need a lot to make a diverse set of decks possible. I cannot imagine Legendary-matters will be a theme in other sets.
right now, before dominarla even releases, there are 73 possible commanders in standard between creatures and pw.
It's not going to be an issue.
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
We see it all the time, Cards that are great in standard simply suck as cards when outside of it. a GOOD card is played in standard and other formats can stand on its own merits. It does not have to be powerful but does have to be fun. Example Silver queen is not a powerful card by any measure but it IS a fun card.
I guess it may have to just have to be a difference of opinion, but I see no reason why lightning bolt is inherently more fun than shock. What if wotc had printed "mega-lightning" back in alpha, that did 10 damage for 1 mana? Would that card's existence make lightning bolt "un-fun"? I mean, I get that having a card that actually sucks is not fun to play with, but shock is a good card in an environment without a deep card pool (such as draft, where I have been very happy to play shock, as has anyone else who's any good at the format). The effect is useful and the rate is reasonable. It's not break open where the effect is useless or wood elemental where the rate is ridiculous. Of course people will play better cards if they're available because they want to win and better cards means better chance to win, but it's not because lightning bolt is inherently more fun.
time vault + voltaic key is not fun for most people. Nor is doomday, adnaus, storm, zur, arcum, narset, the plethora of extra turn effects, etc. Some people enjoy that sort of thing, sure, and legacy and vintage (and "competitive" commander, ideally sequestered in some dark corner of the internet) were made for them. For those of us who want a game of magic that involves greater nuance than "threat vs answer", commander exists.
"Rotation keeps things expensive" is ridiculous. As someone with a $20K commander collection (with the cheapest editions of every card, too) I can assure you that no brawl deck is going to put even the tiniest of dents in the cost required to optimize a commander deck.
Making it easier to jump into isn't merely a matter of cost. Playing commander with newer magic players suuuuuuuuucks. They have to read every damn card and they never know what's going on, and they made idiot mistakes. Restricting the card pool to standard goes a LONG way towards cutting down on that knowledge-based barrier to entry.
I can amortize my commander deck over 5 to 10 years, same as my vintage or legacy deck, I can't do that to a standard deck just a mear 2 years (or 18 months or whatever they have for the new rotation) Once you realize you can play and learn the in and out of your deck over that time period it makes more sense to get the one time higher cost. You get a higher degree of master and better play experience when people are forced to "invest" in their cards. I am not going to spend $1000 on my deck and NOT now how to play it the best I possibly can against each match up. As for your "its not fun" comment, that depends on what crowd you are in, people I play with would disagree with you and I am guessing the people you play with would disagee with me. I would argue that the market agrees with my point of view however, If we assume that most people play magic because they enjoy playing magic, That demand is one of the major indicators of value (for anything not reserve list or very early printing) its simple the cards I would list as "good cards" more often then not will hold value, which means they are played, which means they are fun. People would not play "unfun" cards in a game they play for fun. (granted their may be a small % who only play for prizes or money but I would guess they are the minority)
As someone who has taught new people to play commander. I don't really have a problem with that its just a learning curve and most people who are interested in playing mtg are smart enough to pick it up pretty fast. I disagree, take out say all the reserve list cards and foils from that list and tell me how that value looks. Reserve list is a problem for every format it infects and foils just add value for sake of adding value. I would also bet that is not all in one deck but a collection that incorporates several.
I can amortize my commander deck over 5 to 10 years, same as my vintage or legacy deck, I can't do that to a standard deck just a mear 2 years (or 18 months or whatever they have for the new rotation) Once you realize you can play and learn the in and out of your deck over that time period it makes more sense to get the one time higher cost. You get a higher degree of master and better play experience when people are forced to "invest" in their cards. I am not going to spend $1000 on my deck and NOT now how to play it the best I possibly can against each match up. As for your "its not fun" comment, that depends on what crowd you are in, people I play with would disagree with you and I am guessing the people you play with would disagee with me. I would argue that the market agrees with my point of view however, If we assume that most people play magic because they enjoy playing magic, That demand is one of the major indicators of value (for anything not reserve list or very early printing) its simple the cards I would list as "good cards" more often then not will hold value, which means they are played, which means they are fun. People would not play "unfun" cards in a game they play for fun. (granted their may be a small % who only play for prizes or money but I would guess they are the minority)
As someone who has taught new people to play commander. I don't really have a problem with that its just a learning curve and most people who are interested in playing mtg are smart enough to pick it up pretty fast. I disagree, take out say all the reserve list cards and foils from that list and tell me how that value looks. Reserve list is a problem for every format it infects and foils just add value for sake of adding value. I would also bet that is not all in one deck but a collection that incorporates several.
How long HAVE you been playing the same deck exactly? Outside of a few outliers I usually get bored of any given deck within a month or two. 2 years sounds like an eternity.
If you want to master every matchup and know all the specific in and outs, why don't you play a different format where that's the actual goal? Commander is intended to be social, played well but not to the point of memorizing every deck, which shouldn't be possible given the available variety that's core to the format.
Of course more powerful cards are more valuable. People like good cards because they like to WIN. Certainly in competitive formats which drive up most of the prices, but in commander too. If someone played a modern burn deck with bolts, and a standard deck with shocks, and they won more with the standard deck - I bet they'd like shock more. People just like what wins them games. If the power level of the format is lower, they'll like whatever low-powered stuff helped them win.
Of course, it is cool to do cool things, and running grizzly bears into each other all day isn't very cool. So having a greater variety of effects that can occasionally create cool synergies is worth having, and I can sympathize with someone who wants to stick to commander only because they want to be able to doubling-season their planeswalkers or use mana doublers with geth to put their opponents entire library into play or whatever. But bolt vs shock is such a bad example.
I already said I have the cheapest version of every card (or at least close - I've splurged on a few black borders if it's only a few bucks, and I've got some foils of newer cards that I opened as prerelease promos and never replaced with nonfoil, etc). And yes, it's my collection from which I build my decks, not just a single deck (although it is a singleton collection, so only one of each card). But just looking at an optimal 5C manabase, that's going to set you back over 2K easily, probably closer to 3. By comparison I bet I could build a pretty bang-up gishath deck for like 50 bucks.
Can you see why it's a little ridiculous to claim that BRAWL is the expensive format here? You'd have to keep playing the same deck until the heat death of the universe to get better bang for your buck out of commander.
I'm going to restrain my cynical side and say that this format is not my cup of tea, but if people end up enjoying it, that's awesome. I don't do FNM anywhere near as often as I used to, but if I did, I'd probably construct a Brawl deck in an effort to be more welcoming to new players who may have one.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
I remember looking at the spoiler and thinking "who would play a card like Kazarov, Sengir Pureblood? However, he's a great Commander for something like this. A slower format with singletons to me sounds way better than normal standard.
There are so many ways this could be better.
-Standard card pool but 20lp
-All cards printed with the M15 border legal
-Standard card pool but not singleton, instead using Duels card quantity limits by rarirty
As it is I don't think I'll play it. It's not a new competitive setting ripe for brewing and it's not a new casual setting that offers anything different from Standard or Commander, letting us use walkers as commanders is not enough to entice me. I doubt anyone at my LGS will care and there's no sign it'll be supported online so I don't think I'll even be able to play this ever.
I'm personally under the impression that rotating formats are a waste of money. So this format seems like a waste of money.
Playing magic = wasting time
time = money
--------
playing magic = wasting money
Sounds like it's time to quit magic.
Seriously, though, brawl decks are probably not going to be that expensive. If you can't suck up dropping $50 or $100 on a deck you can play for several years, then I can't imagine how crappy your commander decks must be.
I really like it on paper. Being only 60 cards and allowing the use of a Planeswalker as your commander really makes it a lot more attractive.
The article also makes a good point about starting into Commander being somewhat daunting if your local playgroups are competitive, and it makes sense to have a bit of a ramp up into it with something like Brawl.
It's a starting point, but one big problem with Commander and Standard is that you're really limited by color identity: While gold sets will have cycles of legends, two-color in both Ravnica blocks, arcs in Alara, wedges (and allied colors) in Tarkir, when multicolor is rare, like say, ZEN/SOM, it means locking you into one color: You would have Wrexial, the Risen Deep, Sarkhan the Mad, Venser, the Sojourner, Glissa, the Traitor, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer, and no other multicolor options. (Though, to be fair, the only cards with more than one color of mana symbol on them were dual lands, which isn't that much of an issue. Except Raging Ravine and Stirring Wildwood...well, Raging Ravine. Stirring Wildwood isn't that exciting.) And of course, colorless commanders would require always having Wastes available.
Most "Commander for beginners" variants usually merge with Modern or Frontier to avoid the issue.
Reducing the life total to 30 does take care of the "Boros problem", though.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It's a starting point, but one big problem with Commander and Standard is that you're really limited by color identity: While gold sets will have cycles of legends, two-color in both Ravnica blocks, arcs in Alara, wedges (and allied colors) in Tarkir, when multicolor is rare, like say, ZEN/SOM, it means locking you into one color: You would have Wrexial, the Risen Deep, Sarkhan the Mad, Venser, the Sojourner, Glissa, the Traitor, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer, and no other multicolor options. (Though, to be fair, the only cards with more than one color of mana symbol on them were dual lands, which isn't that much of an issue. Except Raging Ravine and Stirring Wildwood...well, Raging Ravine. Stirring Wildwood isn't that exciting.) And of course, colorless commanders would require always having Wastes available.
Most "Commander for beginners" variants usually merge with Modern or Frontier to avoid the issue.
Reducing the life total to 30 does take care of the "Boros problem", though.
I'd expect that, if this format takes off, they'll make sure to cater to it by printing multicolor legends frequently (which is already pretty frequent tbh).
I think boros will look a lot better in general when it doesn't have to compete against the years and years of busted BUG cards. Aggro will still be tough, but that's kind of the point of a social multiplayer format like this. Aggro is just not very fun to play against.
It's a neat twist on Commander, but they shouldn't have limited it to just standard. From a standard perspective it is nice because it means you won't be needing 4 copies of every expensive staple, only a single copy, which makes building a deck technically easier.
My friends and I are testing this though but keeping a bigger card pool.
This SOUNDS good until they add "standard rotation" and poof just like that the format becomes worse. Not just becuase of the expiry date but ALSO the lack of good cards to play.
Its adorable that you think Shocks and fetchlands are OP..... Come over to the Vintage/Legacy side some time we will show you REAL power.
Bah, you're likely right. I put in that disclaimer in hope that I wouldn't get mathed down by people who did the math to prove the combo had a finite state, and as a result of putting in a seeemingly-erroneous disclaimer that's exactly what I got!
The best cards available ARE the good cards. Maybe you could argue there aren't as many interesting interactions to make the format deep for experienced players, but the raw power level is completely irrelevant when everyone is playing the same stuff.
expiry date is a double-edged sword. It's a feel-bad when your deck rotates, but it keeps things fresh, eliminates old broken stuff, problematic synergies, and makes it easier to jump into for new players.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You know what format is growing fastest right now? Paper pauper. Wizards *hasn't* made it a tournament format - they've been stubbornly resistant to codifying a ruleset for non-MTGO pauper for some reason - but the community is running with it anyway, despite the perspective that other format players might have that their format is superior because of deeper cardpool.
The recent emergence of pauper is a sign that the community is happy to embrace a lower-power lower-cost lower-cardpool alternative, even in the absence of WotC format-pushing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Maybe if I was a standard player/drafter and had all these cards lying around I could see it but as I exclusively play modern/pauper/commander I own very few cards from current standard so I see no point in buying a load of others to build a deck that will rotate at which point 90% of the cards become worthless in all formats.
I disagree as long as people have tasted GOOD cards from other formats they will draw the comparison. A card may be good in the pool but NOT feel good to play. Shock is a bad card, No one wants to play shock unless they are forced too. If offered literally ANY other better alternative they will switch in an instant. People draw the same compairsons to almost all cards. A lighting bolt is fun and powerful, and a shock (or shock varrent) is not. What you call "problematic synergies" I call desired features that make the game more fun. Its kept in check by "putting gate keeper cards in the format to keep it fair" like wasteland and force of will. You say "keeps things fresh" I say "Keeps things expensive" You say eliminates broke cards, I say we haven't had any broken cards since the days of Urza's (although I admit skullclamp and sfm skirted that line pretty hard). Making it easier to jump in too, well you can also oh I don't known print good sealed product with lots of tournament competitive stables in them (and in mass). A far more cost effective way to make it easy to get in too.
We see it all the time, Cards that are great in standard simply suck as cards when outside of it. a GOOD card is played in standard and other formats can stand on its own merits. It does not have to be powerful but does have to be fun. Example Silver queen is not a powerful card by any measure but it IS a fun card.
The cards play different in that their is more consistency being allowed to play 4x of the same card adds alittle somthing to the deck and play style and they still have some good cards in said formats. To give you an example the only standard card I feel might fit the bill as "good" currently is fatal push. Thats one lonely good card. Where as in modern/commander/pauper you have options. You should not have to pick the least bad choice you should have choices that are genuine good and hard to choose between. Players want their cup to runnuth over with good choices. IE lots of the cards need to be good both on their own and in very good in their neesh.
time vault + voltaic key is not fun for most people. Nor is doomday, adnaus, storm, zur, arcum, narset, the plethora of extra turn effects, etc. Some people enjoy that sort of thing, sure, and legacy and vintage (and "competitive" commander, ideally sequestered in some dark corner of the internet) were made for them. For those of us who want a game of magic that involves greater nuance than "threat vs answer", commander exists.
"Rotation keeps things expensive" is ridiculous. As someone with a $20K commander collection (with the cheapest editions of every card, too) I can assure you that no brawl deck is going to put even the tiniest of dents in the cost required to optimize a commander deck.
Making it easier to jump into isn't merely a matter of cost. Playing commander with newer magic players suuuuuuuuucks. They have to read every damn card and they never know what's going on, and they made idiot mistakes. Restricting the card pool to standard goes a LONG way towards cutting down on that knowledge-based barrier to entry.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's not going to be an issue.
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I can amortize my commander deck over 5 to 10 years, same as my vintage or legacy deck, I can't do that to a standard deck just a mear 2 years (or 18 months or whatever they have for the new rotation) Once you realize you can play and learn the in and out of your deck over that time period it makes more sense to get the one time higher cost. You get a higher degree of master and better play experience when people are forced to "invest" in their cards. I am not going to spend $1000 on my deck and NOT now how to play it the best I possibly can against each match up. As for your "its not fun" comment, that depends on what crowd you are in, people I play with would disagree with you and I am guessing the people you play with would disagee with me. I would argue that the market agrees with my point of view however, If we assume that most people play magic because they enjoy playing magic, That demand is one of the major indicators of value (for anything not reserve list or very early printing) its simple the cards I would list as "good cards" more often then not will hold value, which means they are played, which means they are fun. People would not play "unfun" cards in a game they play for fun. (granted their may be a small % who only play for prizes or money but I would guess they are the minority)
As someone who has taught new people to play commander. I don't really have a problem with that its just a learning curve and most people who are interested in playing mtg are smart enough to pick it up pretty fast. I disagree, take out say all the reserve list cards and foils from that list and tell me how that value looks. Reserve list is a problem for every format it infects and foils just add value for sake of adding value. I would also bet that is not all in one deck but a collection that incorporates several.
If you want to master every matchup and know all the specific in and outs, why don't you play a different format where that's the actual goal? Commander is intended to be social, played well but not to the point of memorizing every deck, which shouldn't be possible given the available variety that's core to the format.
Of course more powerful cards are more valuable. People like good cards because they like to WIN. Certainly in competitive formats which drive up most of the prices, but in commander too. If someone played a modern burn deck with bolts, and a standard deck with shocks, and they won more with the standard deck - I bet they'd like shock more. People just like what wins them games. If the power level of the format is lower, they'll like whatever low-powered stuff helped them win.
Of course, it is cool to do cool things, and running grizzly bears into each other all day isn't very cool. So having a greater variety of effects that can occasionally create cool synergies is worth having, and I can sympathize with someone who wants to stick to commander only because they want to be able to doubling-season their planeswalkers or use mana doublers with geth to put their opponents entire library into play or whatever. But bolt vs shock is such a bad example.
I already said I have the cheapest version of every card (or at least close - I've splurged on a few black borders if it's only a few bucks, and I've got some foils of newer cards that I opened as prerelease promos and never replaced with nonfoil, etc). And yes, it's my collection from which I build my decks, not just a single deck (although it is a singleton collection, so only one of each card). But just looking at an optimal 5C manabase, that's going to set you back over 2K easily, probably closer to 3. By comparison I bet I could build a pretty bang-up gishath deck for like 50 bucks.
Can you see why it's a little ridiculous to claim that BRAWL is the expensive format here? You'd have to keep playing the same deck until the heat death of the universe to get better bang for your buck out of commander.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My 720 Peasant Cube
-Standard card pool but 20lp
-All cards printed with the M15 border legal
-Standard card pool but not singleton, instead using Duels card quantity limits by rarirty
As it is I don't think I'll play it. It's not a new competitive setting ripe for brewing and it's not a new casual setting that offers anything different from Standard or Commander, letting us use walkers as commanders is not enough to entice me. I doubt anyone at my LGS will care and there's no sign it'll be supported online so I don't think I'll even be able to play this ever.
time = money
--------
playing magic = wasting money
Sounds like it's time to quit magic.
Seriously, though, brawl decks are probably not going to be that expensive. If you can't suck up dropping $50 or $100 on a deck you can play for several years, then I can't imagine how crappy your commander decks must be.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's a starting point, but one big problem with Commander and Standard is that you're really limited by color identity: While gold sets will have cycles of legends, two-color in both Ravnica blocks, arcs in Alara, wedges (and allied colors) in Tarkir, when multicolor is rare, like say, ZEN/SOM, it means locking you into one color: You would have Wrexial, the Risen Deep, Sarkhan the Mad, Venser, the Sojourner, Glissa, the Traitor, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer, and no other multicolor options. (Though, to be fair, the only cards with more than one color of mana symbol on them were dual lands, which isn't that much of an issue. Except Raging Ravine and Stirring Wildwood...well, Raging Ravine. Stirring Wildwood isn't that exciting.) And of course, colorless commanders would require always having Wastes available.
Most "Commander for beginners" variants usually merge with Modern or Frontier to avoid the issue.
Reducing the life total to 30 does take care of the "Boros problem", though.
On phasing:
I think boros will look a lot better in general when it doesn't have to compete against the years and years of busted BUG cards. Aggro will still be tough, but that's kind of the point of a social multiplayer format like this. Aggro is just not very fun to play against.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's a neat twist on Commander, but they shouldn't have limited it to just standard. From a standard perspective it is nice because it means you won't be needing 4 copies of every expensive staple, only a single copy, which makes building a deck technically easier.
My friends and I are testing this though but keeping a bigger card pool.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries