Calm down. Wizards isn't going to shutter their operations any time soon.
Certainly not because of Nexus of Fate or buy-a-box promos.
Big box toy stores went down because of online retailing.
Maybe paper Magic runs into issues with digital gaming, but Wizards - and Magic - are pretty well entrenched in some form or another.
TRUs and KayBee went down because Romney's firm used leverage buyout shenanigans and stripped the companies of cash. Look it up if you want. The only reference was that the company failed, not how it went down.
No one's saying they're shuttering tomorrow, but they're not on a path to riches right now either. New CEO was hired to make online $$, we will see how that goes.
allreasonstolive asked: Why the BAB Promo can't be a Masterpiece-alike of any card(even a powerful one) that can be normally obtained in packs?
The goal of the Buy-a-Box is to sell boxes at the local game stores. It just being in the product doesn’t accomplish that goal.
Also, I want to stress something that Blake said on the Magic stream today - there are more copies of Nexus of Fate than there are printed versions of any Core 2019 mythic rare card. Nexus of Fate is rarer than a Core 2019 rare but less rare than a Core 2019 mythic rare.
We don’t normally talk about how many we print of a card, but Blake publicly clarified this because there’s a misconception that Nexus of Fate is far rarer than it actually is.
Nexus of Fate is much more rare than WotC will let you believe. Think about it, if you could make a cool $140 selling the promo, rather than issuing these out to people who buy a box, would you do it? I know some stores and people wouldn't, but some do. I seen playsets on ebay before the set was released for $110-120, ready to ship a week before the actual release day. You can't tell me that those were from people who preordered boxes and wanted to get rid of said BAB promo?
We had a similar incident with Fatal Push FNM promos as well, being sold 2-3 days before they were available as promos. One of the LGS in my area was caught doing this and I believe their WPN status was flagged.
As I said before, this is a symptom of a bigger problem. Local game stores have a hard time bringing in revenue and selling product when their online competitors outprice them in every way. In a way, I sorta don't blame stores selling promos to keep afloat, especially if the set is mythic heavy in value, if they're trying to keep afloat. By selling promos like that to keep afloat, it's having an opposite intended effect of having players get these promos to sell boxes. IF they don't have the promos on hand, then it becomes a problem of selling boxes without promos. I believe that LGSs can't sell promos until a certain time frame has passed.
Maybe a solution (if WotC continues to print BaB promos that are not part of the set) is to include the promo INSIDE the box itself. Mass box openers will have copies. Players who want to buy a box will get the copy. Supply is based on sales of boxes, so there's guaranteed value in the box and it would keep the prices of the cards in check due to the influx of cards entering the stores and hands of players. It would keep stores fair and honest by not having the promos on their person to sell. This would have the intended effect for boosting booster box sales for WPN stores, and if LGS owners want to sell the promo, they can because it's part of the set, while not being part of the set at the same time.
But if this is a concern and "the powers that be" can't do this, maybe reverting back to the original BaB promos might be better. There were some GREAT BaB promos of the past: Birds of Paradise, Surgical Extraction, Goblin Rabblemaster, Supreme Verdict, just to name a few. You can't tell me that they don't know what cards are and aren't going to be played. That's what the Future Future League can look for, right?
Or make BaB promos in each set be a chase card from a previous set. This would incentivize players to buy older booster packs as well.
What's the saying that I've heard before: Magic is one of the best games out there, ran by one of the worst companies.
Also, I want to stress something that Blake said on the Magic stream today - there are more copies of Nexus of Fate than there are printed versions of any Core 2019 mythic rare card. Nexus of Fate is rarer than a Core 2019 rare but less rare than a Core 2019 mythic rare.
I can't help but notice MaRo keeps qualifying his statements on this matter. Almost like he's intentionally obfuscating the primary issues...
Seriously though, just stating the relative print numbers for Nexus of Fate in compared to other current print numbers is almost meaningless in any practical sense. I have to say WotC's handling of this matter has soured me quite considerably. Guess it's about time for another hiatus.
Yup currently in print is the key, set printings aren't done all at once. Nexus WILL have fewer numbers than any core 19 mythic by the time they stop printing them. The BS is getting way too thick from these guys. Not only is Nexus insult to injury for standard players but playing against it feels worse.
Time to take a break is right.
I'm with koreandog on this too, go back to the way it way and make it a cool value card that is in the set.
Stores can just mark a preorder and take those boxes for themselves and pure profit off the BaB. BS.
TRUs and KayBee went down because Romney's firm used leverage buyout shenanigans and stripped the companies of cash. Look it up if you want. The only reference was that the company failed, not how it went down.
No one's saying they're shuttering tomorrow, but they're not on a path to riches right now either. New CEO was hired to make online $$, we will see how that goes.
Just like how people with chronic illnesses are rarely killed by their illness itself (pneumonia, for example, being the final blow), the buyouts of KB Toys and Toys R Us were not stories of good companies being destroyed by an evil corporation. They were stories of weak and susceptible companies, beset with poor financials caused by competitive undercuts, who were desperate to stay alive. In the case of Toys R Us, they chose to go private after their business model soured, and they chose Bain during a bidding war that saw their price increase for the first time in years. And this happened because of Amazon's fatal blow.
But the real harbinger of doom arrived in the form of e-commerce, led by retail industry boogie-man Amazon.com, Inc AMZN 0.1% . Shopping for toys became even easier, even less costly. Toys R Us, for its part, simply failed to do enough to vigorously pursue either a robust digital strategy or a vibrant loyalty program. These difficulties were only compounded when the company was taken private in 2005 by a consortium of private equity firms that included a familiar figure.
Yes, Bain didn't do those companies any good service, but those companies were screwed long before Bain showed up.
But in the end, let's focus on the real difference here: You're comparing retailers to a game maker. Big, big difference. The game makers are still around because they first sold at KB Toys, then at Toys R Us, then on Amazon. The retailers are gone because their business models weren't able to keep up with the changing of the digital era. Game makers can easily do that by simply taking their game online. I think Hasbro will be just fine, in one shape or another.
All I did was mention a big company that is no longer that people would be familiar with. Joining them in history type comment.
I did not compare anything else. I even specified in my last sentence, 'WotC is the victim of share holder pressure...'
WotC is under pressure to make more money. The changes they've implemented, if participation is any indicator, have done the opposite. So they're trying new things. That's all.
i really miss the days when sets were good enough to sell a box on their own merit.
how about we go back to that approach rather than forcing an incentive?
its kind of the same thing with the fnm promos. if your environment is fun, and worth playing, you don't need an incentive to play other than playing. i feel both of these things are very closely correlated, and that they hide much bigger issues by skewing data.
i really miss the days when sets were good enough to sell a box on their own merit.
how about we go back to that approach rather than forcing an incentive?
its kind of the same thing with the fnm promos. if your environment is fun, and worth playing, you don't need an incentive to play other than playing. i feel both of these things are very closely correlated, and that they hide much bigger issues by skewing data.
demand better sets, not worse buy a box promos.
This man knows what's up. Why is it so hard for Wizards to realise this?
Luckily, Dominaria, Battlebond and even m19 show signs that wizards is improving.
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Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
So the best batch of sets in like 3 years isn't "good enough to sell a box on their own merit"? The fact that anything, no matter how good, can be made better by putting bacon on it doesn't mean putting bacon on your bacon covered bacon wrapped bacon-fried chicken sandwich isn't going to make it better (in this case, the 'better' is more sales for WOTC because they get to eat the sandwich we pay for ... I'm bad at metaphor). Also, remember that the feedback from the first BAB promo hadn't been received before Nexus of Fate, and will have been [probably but maybe not] received for Guilds of Ravnica (and even if they chose to stop BAB promos like this now, expect them for at least the rest of the Boss-Fight-Vs-Bolas-Arc-that-totally-isn't-a-Ravnica-block-because-set-3-is-"on Ravnica"-not-"about Ravnica" (whatever that means)).
To support Wizards: They didn't playtest the BAB promos on the premise that they were intentionally non-standard cards (read: they targetted Commander players and forgot some effects are good in constructed formats).
To hate Wizards: There was no reason whatsoforkingever not to test these in ALL environments they would be legal. Just because it wasn't designed in the same pool as the Set doesn't mean it wasn't released alongside the set, so they totally should (and stated they are moving forward, even before this fiasco) be testing these cards as if they were in the set.
To support W: The BAB promo, even before it caused waves in a tournament, has been successful (taking their word on this).
To hate W: There are like 500 other reasons LGS are dieing... don't put a bandage on a gangrenous wound and assume that the condition will get better. The healthy LGS that weren't going to die, will not die even more successfully. The others are going to do anything they can to survive, even buy their own BAB promo boxes so they can resell these promos for an actual profit (even if the risk is stupid and why do people believe this will ever happen, other than to fill a base supply since they can't have 0 of a card for singles sales?).
Overall, this conversation is moot. The forces will push Wizards to continue this practice. They will learn from this perception and will, I would put money on this bet if I had any idea the timeframe that was reasonable to start testing it, they 100% WILL put in measures or expectations for reprints so we never feel so scared as we do today. MaRo may be the hardest person in the world to convince of a fact he doesn't believe in (forget his echo chamber, he knows better about the fact the feedback he gets is stupidly biased: MaRo will not change his mind about anything he has made a decision about, even if all of Wizards tells him that Poison is a bad mechanic and shouldn't ever return), but, he does know that even if he 'knows' that Nexus of Fate is plentiful enough for the market to adjust, he also knows that our perception is important. We are upset. That is what matters. If we are rational or not, is not the point for -him- (Wizards may or may not care about us as long as profits go up, that's separate). MaRo will push for an avenue to rescue us. Especially if enough people let him know that it is our -perception- that needs fixing (and feel free to be self-righteous about your perception being backed up by data). That is, unless he has already made a decision about what to do ... there is no word better than Stubborn to describe the energetic gnome of Magic.
It's good to know how the numberr ratios actually work out for BAB promos. I know other limited supply BAB promotional items that definitely wouldn't be available to such an extend - expected to run out long before all box-orders are made. More like "pre-order rewards".
Oh, I thought it was implicit that demanding BAB promos to be non-exclusive was kinda requiring the pool to draw the promo from to be worthwhile. I always thought the generally strong dual lands would make for good BAB rewards - getting a bonus staple means you never end up with a dud.
We all know lands are actually inflated in rarity to serve as box-sellers. Would this cut too much into their reprint equity? They managed to balance a third-set reprint of rare lands in DGM, so it seems this should be a fair option.
---
Thinking back over the last years I also realize that much of what is happening right now is the result of player's getting their wish with regards to Standard rotation. Standard cannot uphold interst over the number of sets it currently is comprised of with the number of playables spread quite thin across the format and outliers having too much of an impact.
No wonder WotC is going hard for solutions that favor Limited and use gimmicks to sell boxes with extra Standard-grade cards. The straightforward solution has been rejected.
Private Mod Note
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Honestly, all they had to do was offer a non-jank Mythic rather than Rare from within set as a foil alternate-art BAB promo and I think it would have been enough. If foil alternate-art flippy Nicol Bolas was the BAB promo, people would have still gone relatively ape-***** to get one, it would have at least commanded the same price as Nexus Of Fate, and it would have had zero negative impact to Standard.
if WotC didnt hear it clearly and loudly already, they cannot be helped at all ...
Still, survey is somewhat fine, but if you did it once or twice it gets old super quick, as the questions just repeat over and over and its annoying, especially as their is absolutely no incentive to do them (imagine you would get something for filling it out, especially as they want to connect your DCI number to the survey, to give people an incentive to do the survey).
It's good to know how the numberr ratios actually work out for BAB promos. I know other limited supply BAB promotional items that definitely wouldn't be available to such an extend - expected to run out long before all box-orders are made. More like "pre-order rewards".
Oh, I thought it was implicit that demanding BAB promos to be non-exclusive was kinda requiring the pool to draw the promo from to be worthwhile. I always thought the generally strong dual lands would make for good BAB rewards - getting a bonus staple means you never end up with a dud.
We all know lands are actually inflated in rarity to serve as box-sellers. Would this cut too much into their reprint equity? They managed to balance a third-set reprint of rare lands in DGM, so it seems this should be a fair option.
---
Thinking back over the last years I also realize that much of what is happening right now is the result of player's getting their wish with regards to Standard rotation. Standard cannot uphold interst over the number of sets it currently is comprised of with the number of playables spread quite thin across the format and outliers having too much of an impact.
No wonder WotC is going hard for solutions that favor Limited and use gimmicks to sell boxes with extra Standard-grade cards. The straightforward solution has been rejected.
I would be happy with chase lands as BAB. Admitedly, not the garbage CIPT cards from Core 2019 but there are other cards I would think would be nice to see as a BAB promo.
Not ever going to happen due to licensing and royalties, but foiled throwback art that never saw a foil printing would get me to buy a box. I pine for a day to see the original Winter Orb foiled. That's making me curious now... how many cards have art under the new royalty-free scheme was printed without foil counterparts?
Certainly not because of Nexus of Fate or buy-a-box promos.
Big box toy stores went down because of online retailing.
Maybe paper Magic runs into issues with digital gaming, but Wizards - and Magic - are pretty well entrenched in some form or another.
No one's saying they're shuttering tomorrow, but they're not on a path to riches right now either. New CEO was hired to make online $$, we will see how that goes.
We had a similar incident with Fatal Push FNM promos as well, being sold 2-3 days before they were available as promos. One of the LGS in my area was caught doing this and I believe their WPN status was flagged.
As I said before, this is a symptom of a bigger problem. Local game stores have a hard time bringing in revenue and selling product when their online competitors outprice them in every way. In a way, I sorta don't blame stores selling promos to keep afloat, especially if the set is mythic heavy in value, if they're trying to keep afloat. By selling promos like that to keep afloat, it's having an opposite intended effect of having players get these promos to sell boxes. IF they don't have the promos on hand, then it becomes a problem of selling boxes without promos. I believe that LGSs can't sell promos until a certain time frame has passed.
Maybe a solution (if WotC continues to print BaB promos that are not part of the set) is to include the promo INSIDE the box itself. Mass box openers will have copies. Players who want to buy a box will get the copy. Supply is based on sales of boxes, so there's guaranteed value in the box and it would keep the prices of the cards in check due to the influx of cards entering the stores and hands of players. It would keep stores fair and honest by not having the promos on their person to sell. This would have the intended effect for boosting booster box sales for WPN stores, and if LGS owners want to sell the promo, they can because it's part of the set, while not being part of the set at the same time.
But if this is a concern and "the powers that be" can't do this, maybe reverting back to the original BaB promos might be better. There were some GREAT BaB promos of the past: Birds of Paradise, Surgical Extraction, Goblin Rabblemaster, Supreme Verdict, just to name a few. You can't tell me that they don't know what cards are and aren't going to be played. That's what the Future Future League can look for, right?
Or make BaB promos in each set be a chase card from a previous set. This would incentivize players to buy older booster packs as well.
What's the saying that I've heard before: Magic is one of the best games out there, ran by one of the worst companies.
Standard: Risky Burn, Aggro/Burn, Tempo
Modern: Goblins, Budget 8 Rack, Soul Sisters, 42 Land Swan Hunt, Stompy, Burn
Pauper: Miracles, Madness
Seriously though, just stating the relative print numbers for Nexus of Fate in compared to other current print numbers is almost meaningless in any practical sense. I have to say WotC's handling of this matter has soured me quite considerably. Guess it's about time for another hiatus.
Time to take a break is right.
I'm with koreandog on this too, go back to the way it way and make it a cool value card that is in the set.
Stores can just mark a preorder and take those boxes for themselves and pure profit off the BaB. BS.
Just like how people with chronic illnesses are rarely killed by their illness itself (pneumonia, for example, being the final blow), the buyouts of KB Toys and Toys R Us were not stories of good companies being destroyed by an evil corporation. They were stories of weak and susceptible companies, beset with poor financials caused by competitive undercuts, who were desperate to stay alive. In the case of Toys R Us, they chose to go private after their business model soured, and they chose Bain during a bidding war that saw their price increase for the first time in years. And this happened because of Amazon's fatal blow.
Yes, Bain didn't do those companies any good service, but those companies were screwed long before Bain showed up.
But in the end, let's focus on the real difference here: You're comparing retailers to a game maker. Big, big difference. The game makers are still around because they first sold at KB Toys, then at Toys R Us, then on Amazon. The retailers are gone because their business models weren't able to keep up with the changing of the digital era. Game makers can easily do that by simply taking their game online. I think Hasbro will be just fine, in one shape or another.
All I did was mention a big company that is no longer that people would be familiar with. Joining them in history type comment.
I did not compare anything else. I even specified in my last sentence, 'WotC is the victim of share holder pressure...'
WotC is under pressure to make more money. The changes they've implemented, if participation is any indicator, have done the opposite. So they're trying new things. That's all.
how about we go back to that approach rather than forcing an incentive?
its kind of the same thing with the fnm promos. if your environment is fun, and worth playing, you don't need an incentive to play other than playing. i feel both of these things are very closely correlated, and that they hide much bigger issues by skewing data.
demand better sets, not worse buy a box promos.
This man knows what's up. Why is it so hard for Wizards to realise this?
Luckily, Dominaria, Battlebond and even m19 show signs that wizards is improving.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
To support Wizards: They didn't playtest the BAB promos on the premise that they were intentionally non-standard cards (read: they targetted Commander players and forgot some effects are good in constructed formats).
To hate Wizards: There was no reason whatsoforkingever not to test these in ALL environments they would be legal. Just because it wasn't designed in the same pool as the Set doesn't mean it wasn't released alongside the set, so they totally should (and stated they are moving forward, even before this fiasco) be testing these cards as if they were in the set.
To support W: The BAB promo, even before it caused waves in a tournament, has been successful (taking their word on this).
To hate W: There are like 500 other reasons LGS are dieing... don't put a bandage on a gangrenous wound and assume that the condition will get better. The healthy LGS that weren't going to die, will not die even more successfully. The others are going to do anything they can to survive, even buy their own BAB promo boxes so they can resell these promos for an actual profit (even if the risk is stupid and why do people believe this will ever happen, other than to fill a base supply since they can't have 0 of a card for singles sales?).
Overall, this conversation is moot. The forces will push Wizards to continue this practice. They will learn from this perception and will, I would put money on this bet if I had any idea the timeframe that was reasonable to start testing it, they 100% WILL put in measures or expectations for reprints so we never feel so scared as we do today. MaRo may be the hardest person in the world to convince of a fact he doesn't believe in (forget his echo chamber, he knows better about the fact the feedback he gets is stupidly biased: MaRo will not change his mind about anything he has made a decision about, even if all of Wizards tells him that Poison is a bad mechanic and shouldn't ever return), but, he does know that even if he 'knows' that Nexus of Fate is plentiful enough for the market to adjust, he also knows that our perception is important. We are upset. That is what matters. If we are rational or not, is not the point for -him- (Wizards may or may not care about us as long as profits go up, that's separate). MaRo will push for an avenue to rescue us. Especially if enough people let him know that it is our -perception- that needs fixing (and feel free to be self-righteous about your perception being backed up by data). That is, unless he has already made a decision about what to do ... there is no word better than Stubborn to describe the energetic gnome of Magic.
Oh, I thought it was implicit that demanding BAB promos to be non-exclusive was kinda requiring the pool to draw the promo from to be worthwhile. I always thought the generally strong dual lands would make for good BAB rewards - getting a bonus staple means you never end up with a dud.
We all know lands are actually inflated in rarity to serve as box-sellers. Would this cut too much into their reprint equity? They managed to balance a third-set reprint of rare lands in DGM, so it seems this should be a fair option.
---
Thinking back over the last years I also realize that much of what is happening right now is the result of player's getting their wish with regards to Standard rotation. Standard cannot uphold interst over the number of sets it currently is comprised of with the number of playables spread quite thin across the format and outliers having too much of an impact.
No wonder WotC is going hard for solutions that favor Limited and use gimmicks to sell boxes with extra Standard-grade cards. The straightforward solution has been rejected.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles
It should be there somewhere. We can complain all we want on here, but if we don't tell them then we are doing nothing about it.
Standard: Risky Burn, Aggro/Burn, Tempo
Modern: Goblins, Budget 8 Rack, Soul Sisters, 42 Land Swan Hunt, Stompy, Burn
Pauper: Miracles, Madness
Still, survey is somewhat fine, but if you did it once or twice it gets old super quick, as the questions just repeat over and over and its annoying, especially as their is absolutely no incentive to do them (imagine you would get something for filling it out, especially as they want to connect your DCI number to the survey, to give people an incentive to do the survey).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I would be happy with chase lands as BAB. Admitedly, not the garbage CIPT cards from Core 2019 but there are other cards I would think would be nice to see as a BAB promo.
Not ever going to happen due to licensing and royalties, but foiled throwback art that never saw a foil printing would get me to buy a box. I pine for a day to see the original Winter Orb foiled. That's making me curious now... how many cards have art under the new royalty-free scheme was printed without foil counterparts?
Well this kinda is true we just have to wait a bit more. But still sucks being only foil