Like others have said I was expecting a far different from, but unlike others expecting planeswalker esque frames I expect Level Up frames. Of course that doesn't mean I hate what I'm seeing and it does look rather nice. The one thing that irks me is that it just says "enters" rather than "enters the battlefield", but that's a minor point I suppose.
This being a mythic does seem a bit much, but I won't complain too much as it does do some nice things and the whole lore aspect of it.
I understand the layout decision. The design of sagas is VERY similar, virtually identical to a design I saw here on the forums in Custom Card Creation. I've tried tinkering with the idea and the biggest issue that I kept bumping into was the lack of vertical room in the text box. You can simplify the abilities to get them onto one line, but ultimately the card needs four clearly delineated spaces for the three effects and the rules reminder. If you want any sort of complexity in the effects, there's just not enough room unless you make the text insanely tiny or get creative with the frame.
The layout is great and so correct. It really flows. I think it might've been too similar to Planeswalkers if it was with a regular frame layout. Or look like a token if they did some kind of large art and see through text box.
I don't mind the aesthetic, and I think the way it's laid out makes it work in a fairly straightforward way. I do feel like the third stage could have done more than flushing the graveyard, but the card has great flavor, cool art, and a fun and interesting line of play.
The delayed nature of the effect makes it closer to Planar Collapse than Damnation in some ways. As a wrath, delay is a lousy property: you need it when you need it, not the next turn. Still, it's a pretty cool card.
I like these. Not a slam dunk like the Enchantment-creature frames (which were brilliant in their subtlety) or the devoid frames, but definitely better than the Aftermath frames and the Invocations.
As far as the card goes, I could see it at mythic or rare, but mythic seems rare. Dripping with flavor, potential one sided wrath... I would place it at rare but mythic certainly isn't egregious.
I'm a little bummed out about them slowing down previews, but I think it's actually smart. When ONLY the text leaks, spoilers are still very exciting. Throwing us one spoiler every 1-2 days (like they did today) would be a nice compromise imo. Hoping they do that.
I'm also pretty surprised by that wording, is this a new thing that they type such abrupt explanations? 'Add a lore counter' shouldn't it be 'Add a lore counter on it or CARDNAME'? Sacrifice After III. III what, effect, trigger, counter? I get how the card works, but this seems pretty drastic compared to previous wordings. In all fairness, though, this layout is clean, unique and readable, so they got that part right.
Can't be any worse than Blessing was. That printing was the fist time I saw that card. You can imagine the confusion around it.
The Unstable cards actually make sense now. I'm not sure how I really feel about Sagas but I'll take a wait and see attitude for now.
to boil it down for my review I'd say
card frame 9/10
saga mechanic 10/10
grok factor 3/10
they clearly tried to come up with the most concise wording to clue people in on how the saga mechanic worked, and I think they failed in that regard, there simply wasn't any good way to express that much of an oddball mechanic in such a small budget of card space for reminder text. It took me about 5 readings of the release notes to figure out exactly how the mechanic worked, and there was no good way to put that into just a few words of text. I gave them an extra few points for the attempt or that would be a 1/10. Its just not clear that the ability triggers as it enters, that its 1-based instead of 0-based, and its going to be even more confusing with "I&II" mechanics that were spoiled, when the card is sacrificed, etc. I mean, if I wanted to list the basic overview of the mechanic to make sure someone actually understood how it worked I'd have to say something like:
"When it enters the battlefield, you put a lore counter on it and it triggers its "I" effect. Then each following draw step you put another lore counter on it and do its corresponding II and III effect, sacrificing it after III. Its possible to take off counters or put counters on it through other effects, and its corresponding # effect triggers whenever a lore counter is put onto it by any means. It only triggers the effect with the same # of counters after placing it, not the ones above or below it. Cards can have any arbitrary I, II, III effects which could be I & II, or II & III with a I&II effect trigger on both the I and II, but not III, and it always sacrifices after the last one triggers- it could go up to IV or whatever"
I'm also pretty surprised by that wording, is this a new thing that they type such abrupt explanations? 'Add a lore counter' shouldn't it be 'Add a lore counter on it or CARDNAME'? Sacrifice After III. III what, effect, trigger, counter? I get how the card works, but this seems pretty drastic compared to previous wordings. In all fairness, though, this layout is clean, unique and readable, so they got that part right.
Can't be any worse than Blessing was. That printing was the fist time I saw that card. You can imagine the confusion around it.
The Unstable cards actually make sense now. I'm not sure how I really feel about Sagas but I'll take a wait and see attitude for now.
The wording is perfect. As a professional writer, I love it.
There is zero ambiguity, and it is easy to read with no wasted space. Finally they got an editor with a brain, or at least one who doesn't act like they get paid by the word.
Do sagas only trigger when the counter is put on, or do they also trigger when counters get removed, like by Power Conduit? Knowing this now will help to know when to use such effects.
Do sagas only trigger when the counter is put on, or do they also trigger when counters get removed, like by Power Conduit? Knowing this now will help to know when to use such effects.
The effect only triggers during the post-draw step, it's not the placement or removal of the counters that trigger the effect. Manipulating the counters would just let you keep it on a certain desired effect and prevent it from hitting the last effect and sacrificing.
Do sagas only trigger when the counter is put on, or do they also trigger when counters get removed, like by Power Conduit? Knowing this now will help to know when to use such effects.
The effect only triggers during the post-draw step, it's not the placement or removal of the counters that trigger the effect. Manipulating the counters would just let you keep it on a certain desired effect and prevent it from hitting the last effect and sacrificing.
Actually, you can do exactly that. But it is true that only placing counters, not removing, triggers the effect.
Having saga's effects after draw is a nice change, missing upkeep triggers because you drew is always a pain. Some things like echo costs I am happy with having to be paid before you draw because there is a strategic component to deciding to pay it or not, but there is a lot of cards that could easily be moved to after the draw. I doesn't seem like drawing before/after the saga's effects matters too much but going forward I would be happy having more effects happen after my draw rather than upkeep. Having effects happen after the draw makes it much easier to roll back if someone missed a trigger since there has been no hidden information revealed.
Curious to see what the Phyrexian text says once someone translates it, I only recently found out Phyrexian is a full constructed language.
Each symbol on the left of a Saga's text box represents a chapter ability. A chapter ability is a triggered ability that triggers when a lore counter that is put on the Saga causes the number of lore counters on the Saga to become equal to or greater than the ability's chapter number. Chapter abilities are put onto the stack and may be responded to.
A chapter ability doesn't trigger if a lore counter is put on a Saga that already had a number of lore counters greater than or equal to that chapter's number. For example, the third lore counter put on a Saga causes the III chapter ability to trigger, but I and II won't trigger again.
If counters are removed from a Saga, the appropriate chapter abilities will trigger again when the Saga receives lore counters. Removing lore counters won't cause a previous chapter ability to trigger.
The ability is triggered by lore counters being put onto it from any source, its just that you put a lore counter on each saga at the draw step, triggering this. So proliferating a Saga will trigger its ability.
The wording is somewhat obtuse with its "greater or equals" wording, because it needed to deal with corner cases. The reason for that wording is the case of putting more than one counter on it at a time, for example doubling season: If you cast phyrexian scriptures with doubling season on the battlefield, it enters with 2 lore counters on it, triggering both its I and II abilities, in whichever order you want. Then on your next draw step, you put 2 more counters on it, triggering just its III ability, but not its I or II, and then you sacrifice it
Its a real noodly mess in terms of trying to make the ability easy to grok. The wording was necessary, but its so complicated to understand it should have been spelled out with a dumbed down example form that elaborated in the release notes. The only numbers the game really cares about are how many counters were on the object before and after any lore counters are placed on it. It triggers the set of effects which are less or equal to 'after' number of counters, minus the set of effects which are less or equal to the 'before' number of counters.
If memory serves, isn't this how they originally designed planeswalkers? Certainly offputting to look at but so were aftermath cards and I got used to that so whatever.
I do question the power level of all of these though. Like thw investment on this isn't stellar. For the same mana cost as Damnation you get one that doesnt hit artifacts, a Tormod's Crypt and a +1/+1 counter. If it were just the mana cost it's be fine but it also take 3 turns. I wish they had built these so that they didn't sac amd their 3rd chapter was more permanent.
Each symbol on the left of a Saga's text box represents a chapter ability. A chapter ability is a triggered ability that triggers when a lore counter that is put on the Saga causes the number of lore counters on the Saga to become equal to or greater than the ability's chapter number. Chapter abilities are put onto the stack and may be responded to.
A chapter ability doesn't trigger if a lore counter is put on a Saga that already had a number of lore counters greater than or equal to that chapter's number. For example, the third lore counter put on a Saga causes the III chapter ability to trigger, but I and II won't trigger again.
If counters are removed from a Saga, the appropriate chapter abilities will trigger again when the Saga receives lore counters. Removing lore counters won't cause a previous chapter ability to trigger.
The ability is triggered by lore counters being put onto it from any source, its just that you put a lore counter on each saga at the draw step, triggering this. So proliferating a Saga will trigger its ability.
The wording is somewhat obtuse with its "greater or equals" wording, because it needed to deal with corner cases. The reason for that wording is the case of putting more than one counter on it at a time, for example doubling season: If you cast phyrexian scriptures with doubling season on the battlefield, it enters with 2 lore counters on it, triggering both its I and II abilities, in whichever order you want. Then on your next draw step, you put 2 more counters on it, triggering just its III ability, but not its I or II, and then you sacrifice it
Its a real noodly mess in terms of trying to make the ability easy to grok. The wording was necessary, but its so complicated to understand it should have been spelled out with a dumbed down example form that elaborated in the release notes. The only numbers the game really cares about are how many counters were on the object before and after any lore counters are placed on it. It triggers the set of effects which are less or equal to 'after' number of counters, minus the set of effects which are less or equal to the 'before' number of counters.
You're right, I didn't parse the rules wording correctly. The language is pretty obtuse. Definitely can see why they would make these rare enough to not be ran into during Limited often.
All this counter play and multiple lore counter business... I find is simply too complicating for its own good.
98+% of the time it’ll behave no differently from:
When it enters the battlefield, do I.
At the start of your precombat main phase, if this has 0 lore counters in it, do II then put a lore counter on it.
At the start of your precombat main phase, if this has one or more lore counters on it, do III then sacrifice this.
The other 2% of the time will be more confusing than clever. Counter doublers causing multiple chapters to go onto the stack at the same time and resolve out of ordinary order... isn’t reward enough to have accommodated that complication.
As a huge enchantments guy, I really kind of love the Saga concept, and the layout. If I had one tiny nitpick with this card in particular it would that I'd love III ability to generate mana. Seems kind of a wasted reference.
I like it, looks really cool. I got a laugh out of them being called innovative, or the most innovative thing in the set. They're cool, but innovative..no. They're like cumulative upkeep, level up, etc. Not exactly breaking new ground here.
Also really disappointed they caved to the whiners wanting to avoid spoilers. They could have gone as they had previously said they would and those wanting to wait could...wait and then check them later on.
I like it, looks really cool. I got a laugh out of them being called innovative, or the most innovative thing in the set. They're cool, but innovative..no. They're like cumulative upkeep, level up, etc. Not exactly breaking new ground here.
Also really disappointed they caved to the whiners wanting to avoid spoilers. They could have gone as they had previously said they would and those wanting to wait could...wait and then check them later on.
Early spoilers mostly pose a problem for singles sellers who basically live off of presales. They get stuck having to jump the gun early to get their money in or get caught behind everyone else as the hype wave rolls by.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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This being a mythic does seem a bit much, but I won't complain too much as it does do some nice things and the whole lore aspect of it.
The delayed nature of the effect makes it closer to Planar Collapse than Damnation in some ways. As a wrath, delay is a lousy property: you need it when you need it, not the next turn. Still, it's a pretty cool card.
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As far as the card goes, I could see it at mythic or rare, but mythic seems rare. Dripping with flavor, potential one sided wrath... I would place it at rare but mythic certainly isn't egregious.
I'm a little bummed out about them slowing down previews, but I think it's actually smart. When ONLY the text leaks, spoilers are still very exciting. Throwing us one spoiler every 1-2 days (like they did today) would be a nice compromise imo. Hoping they do that.
Can't be any worse than Blessing was. That printing was the fist time I saw that card. You can imagine the confusion around it.
The Unstable cards actually make sense now. I'm not sure how I really feel about Sagas but I'll take a wait and see attitude for now.
card frame 9/10
saga mechanic 10/10
grok factor 3/10
they clearly tried to come up with the most concise wording to clue people in on how the saga mechanic worked, and I think they failed in that regard, there simply wasn't any good way to express that much of an oddball mechanic in such a small budget of card space for reminder text. It took me about 5 readings of the release notes to figure out exactly how the mechanic worked, and there was no good way to put that into just a few words of text. I gave them an extra few points for the attempt or that would be a 1/10. Its just not clear that the ability triggers as it enters, that its 1-based instead of 0-based, and its going to be even more confusing with "I&II" mechanics that were spoiled, when the card is sacrificed, etc. I mean, if I wanted to list the basic overview of the mechanic to make sure someone actually understood how it worked I'd have to say something like:
"When it enters the battlefield, you put a lore counter on it and it triggers its "I" effect. Then each following draw step you put another lore counter on it and do its corresponding II and III effect, sacrificing it after III. Its possible to take off counters or put counters on it through other effects, and its corresponding # effect triggers whenever a lore counter is put onto it by any means. It only triggers the effect with the same # of counters after placing it, not the ones above or below it. Cards can have any arbitrary I, II, III effects which could be I & II, or II & III with a I&II effect trigger on both the I and II, but not III, and it always sacrifices after the last one triggers- it could go up to IV or whatever"
It's also on art station.
The wording is perfect. As a professional writer, I love it.
There is zero ambiguity, and it is easy to read with no wasted space. Finally they got an editor with a brain, or at least one who doesn't act like they get paid by the word.
The effect only triggers during the post-draw step, it's not the placement or removal of the counters that trigger the effect. Manipulating the counters would just let you keep it on a certain desired effect and prevent it from hitting the last effect and sacrificing.
Actually, you can do exactly that. But it is true that only placing counters, not removing, triggers the effect.
Curious to see what the Phyrexian text says once someone translates it, I only recently found out Phyrexian is a full constructed language.
The saga cards are amazing but then shown like this you guys suddenly hate the idea you guys never fail to confuse me.
I disagree completely it looks great.
One question about sagas though do I have to sacrifice it immediately after number 3 activates? Or is the next turn?
The ability is triggered by lore counters being put onto it from any source, its just that you put a lore counter on each saga at the draw step, triggering this. So proliferating a Saga will trigger its ability.
The wording is somewhat obtuse with its "greater or equals" wording, because it needed to deal with corner cases. The reason for that wording is the case of putting more than one counter on it at a time, for example doubling season: If you cast phyrexian scriptures with doubling season on the battlefield, it enters with 2 lore counters on it, triggering both its I and II abilities, in whichever order you want. Then on your next draw step, you put 2 more counters on it, triggering just its III ability, but not its I or II, and then you sacrifice it
Its a real noodly mess in terms of trying to make the ability easy to grok. The wording was necessary, but its so complicated to understand it should have been spelled out with a dumbed down example form that elaborated in the release notes. The only numbers the game really cares about are how many counters were on the object before and after any lore counters are placed on it. It triggers the set of effects which are less or equal to 'after' number of counters, minus the set of effects which are less or equal to the 'before' number of counters.
To me "sacrifice after III" means once the third ability resolves.
I agree, the new frame looks great. It work well aesthetically and mechanically.
I do question the power level of all of these though. Like thw investment on this isn't stellar. For the same mana cost as Damnation you get one that doesnt hit artifacts, a Tormod's Crypt and a +1/+1 counter. If it were just the mana cost it's be fine but it also take 3 turns. I wish they had built these so that they didn't sac amd their 3rd chapter was more permanent.
You're right, I didn't parse the rules wording correctly. The language is pretty obtuse. Definitely can see why they would make these rare enough to not be ran into during Limited often.
98+% of the time it’ll behave no differently from:
When it enters the battlefield, do I.
At the start of your precombat main phase, if this has 0 lore counters in it, do II then put a lore counter on it.
At the start of your precombat main phase, if this has one or more lore counters on it, do III then sacrifice this.
The other 2% of the time will be more confusing than clever. Counter doublers causing multiple chapters to go onto the stack at the same time and resolve out of ordinary order... isn’t reward enough to have accommodated that complication.
Also really disappointed they caved to the whiners wanting to avoid spoilers. They could have gone as they had previously said they would and those wanting to wait could...wait and then check them later on.
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Early spoilers mostly pose a problem for singles sellers who basically live off of presales. They get stuck having to jump the gun early to get their money in or get caught behind everyone else as the hype wave rolls by.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!