I suspect another reason Iconic Masters failed is just plain fatigue with these overpriced reprint sets. I think a lot of people have had enough of spending $10 per booster just to get mostly filler cards because Wizards is too afraid of reprinting needed cards in reasonable quantities. 2 Masters sets along with Unhinged and all of the normal Standard product and Commander in a year is a bit much.
If they do more lands, I hope they don't just do a cycle of duals. The Urza's lands desperately need reprints, and I wouldn't say no to the Locuses, Glimmervoid, Nykthos, Reflecting Pool, or Vesuva either. Also, no more blech uncommon dual lands like the Ravnica bouncelands.
2-3 expensive cards isn't enough to sell the set. Unless Wizards wants another dud to collect dust on store shelves like Iconic Masters, they'd better stuff this one full of format staples (i.e. LANDS!! LANDS!! LANDS!!).
It’s kinda expected now that there’ll be a cycle of 5 rare lands, right? They did a cycle of 5 in MM17, they did a cycle of 5 in IMA - I expect a cycle of 5 here.
what cycles are available though? allied manlands or allied fast lands? not sure what else
I have a deep hatred of the Masters sets because they're so clearly a cash grab and yet they're still insanely popular and I don't know why. It's not like it costs WotC more to print a Masters set, and in fact it is almost certainly cheaper to make than the average set because of the reduced need for R&D; Masters sets are 100% reprints so they don't need to design any new cards, and they don't change a card's format legality so they don't even have to test for that. It's downright absurd to me that people are actively happy to pay a 150% premium on a product we should by all rights be getting at $4 MSRP like normal. There's simply no reason for it to be this way other than WotC wants more money.
Conspiracy has already proven that WotC can do reprint-heavy draft-focused supplemental sets and not price-gouge us, so I don't know why we accept this $10 a pack nonsense.
I have a deep hatred of the Masters sets because they're so clearly a cash grab and yet they're still insanely popular and I don't know why. It's not like it costs WotC more to print a Masters set, and in fact it is almost certainly cheaper to make than the average set because of the reduced need for R&D; Masters sets are 100% reprints so they don't need to design any new cards, and they don't change a card's format legality so they don't even have to test for that. It's downright absurd to me that people are actively happy to pay a 150% premium on a product we should by all rights be getting at $4 MSRP like normal. There's simply no reason for it to be this way other than WotC wants more money.
Conspiracy has already proven that WotC can do reprint-heavy draft-focused supplemental sets and not price-gouge us, so I don't know why we accept this $10 a pack nonsense.
The simple answer is we're not the ones buying it. The people primarily purchasing tons of pallets and consuming the boxes are the singles sellers. People do buy a few boxes here and there, but at this point singles sellers get the sets, crack them, and sell the contents. They also buy fairly substantial amounts of product compared to any individual consumer. SCG, CFB, and Card Kingdom all buy loads of product and break them down so people can buy the cards they need.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think it's to preserve the secondary market value on cards, to an extent. WOTC just happens to capitalize on the secondary market being what it is, in the process.
I think it's to preserve the secondary market value on cards, to an extent. WOTC just happens to capitalize on the secondary market being what it is, in the process.
Err, not exactly true. The reason the sets are so high in cost is because WoTC wants the money themselves. When they found out about how vibrant and lucrative the singles industry really was and how quickly collectors and investors would scoop up anything with high value, they changed how they did sets so as to make sure the ones profiting from their ventures was themselves. I actually said this in another thread already, but basically the way they are doing reprints slowly crumbles the prices on the secondary market with time while keeping them too high for a broader audience to pick up. I'm sure the results are great to present to the stock holders, but it does nothing to help get people into playing the game. We've finally come to the point that the next most popular format is paper pauper because of how expensive the game has become.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As said by others. If they want this to sell well it would be best if they included Fetch Lands, since they are the best lands ever printed next to original duals. I doubt this will occur given they reprinted them already in the last Masters set. If not these, then the shock lands, the 3rd best set of lands and valuable still.
It would be ideal if they included cards that have had an impact on the game in certain formats but are high in value as well - Rishadan Port, Food Chain, Mycosynth Lattice, Glimpse of Nature, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Force of Will, Omniscience, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.
The simple answer is we're not the ones buying it. The people primarily purchasing tons of pallets and consuming the boxes are the singles sellers. People do buy a few boxes here and there, but at this point singles sellers get the sets, crack them, and sell the contents. They also buy fairly substantial amounts of product compared to any individual consumer. SCG, CFB, and Card Kingdom all buy loads of product and break them down so people can buy the cards they need.
Major stores do that for literally every set. Masters sets are no different in that regard. The only difference is that Masters sets are artificially scarce to help inflate their prices, which also happens to be completely antithetical to the notion that Masters sets are made primarily for Limited (specifically Draft). WotC needs to just commit to making supplemental draft sets that are affordable. Literally all I want is Conspiracy without the multiplayer focus. Instead we've gotten what... 6 Masters sets now?
Unless Masters 25 has literal Power9 as Expeditions I'm staying far, far away from it. It's hard enough to justify spending $15 a week to do normal drafts.
Honestly, not to belittle anyone's opinions here, which are quite valid...
But after 12 miserable and lost years in Yu-Gi-Oh, I will gladly accept a Reserve List and Masters sets/secondary market as MTG's worst. As much as I'd love them to change. Trust me, you guys have seen nothing.
I think it's to preserve the secondary market value on cards, to an extent. WOTC just happens to capitalize on the secondary market being what it is, in the process.
We've finally come to the point that the next most popular format is paper pauper because of how expensive the game has become.
And yet they’re scared to reprint good commons too! That was part of what turned me off in IMA - the rares and mythics being disappointing would be easier to stomach if they actually printed the desirable commons and uncommons - if you could open a pack and even if the rare is a dud, at least take some consolation in seeing a few commons that would have been 1-5 dollar commons before the set was announced. Stuff like Ancient Stirrings, Manamorphose, Simian Spirit Guide, Street Wraith, Ponder, Preordain, Gush, Daze, Nettle Sentinel. But even the commons in IMA were almost uniformly trash.
Honestly, not to belittle anyone's opinions here, which are quite valid...
But after 12 miserable and lost years in Yu-Gi-Oh, I will gladly accept a Reserve List and Masters sets/secondary market as MTG's worst. As much as I'd love them to change. Trust me, you guys have seen nothing.
Oh yeah, you mean the game that literally changed the rules and rendered a huge number of cards basically useless over night. Then proceeded to constantly have bans to kill the most popular decks so they can showcase the newest sets over say, having something from a year ago still keep taking first place. Then they claim the big joy of playing the game is that there is no rotation so your cards are always good.
The Reserved List is far from MtGs worst, it's just a lot of people like complaining about it because the RL is the reason that just about all formats not named modern or standard are being overlooked. The secondary market problem is also not completely the fault of Wizards. The main complication in magic is deck building and preparation due to the lands and spell cards all being placed in the same deck as well as dealing with concepts like the mana curve and understanding what strategy one is aiming for. MaRo attempted to simplify the game by forcing a lot of the power into the mid-range 3 to 4 CMC slots and created all in one big game finishers, but that resulted in several overly powerful cards and basically the birth of tron and a few other decks in modern. So basically, Wizards part in this was making battleship creatures and the players fault in this is not having the time to build or strategize, thus being forced onto forums, quick build tools, and online deck listings that shift depending on the meta. WoTC could fix the price issue if they were releasing the masters sets as a form of out of rotation core set, priced at 120 msrp, but they got greedy.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
From what I read I heard masters 25 is going to get a print run similar to iconic masters and that master set got big enough for Walmart and target
The run for iconic masters was about the same size as MM2017, it's just that they didn't have the lands, failed to meet peoples expectations, and just blew themselves up in general through a combination of horrid marketing and product oversaturation with Explorers, a new duel deck, and Unstable. We're really never going to see a perfect storm like that for a long, long time. Not to mention the set was spoiled all the way back at hascon so by the time it arrived it was already old news. The box prices basically tanked into the floor and they aren't going to recover for a while. It will be a year before Iconic Masters goes for 180 a box again.
MM 25 isn't going to go down like Iconic did. They aren't spoiling it far ahead of time, the cards selection will hopefully be better, and we aren't flooded with a ton of secondary products outside of one lone duel deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
between IMA and M25 about 5 monthes, I don't think wizards realize their fails and fix them such soon. I think they do same s**t again, few expensive cards, few never reprinted, few with new art...
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I wish that they would drop the MSRP, these Master sets at 24 packs should be $100 dollars to stores, then sold for $150, netting a nice profit of $50 a box for the stores, and getting packs to players at just over $6 a pack. More affordable to draft, easier to justify buying, and every makes out very well. If the demand is higher or the damn speculators try to ruin it, just send out a second run. I believe in burning the people who try to hoard these boxes, burn them at every opportunity.
This is not me talking out my ass, this was a system that came up while a few of us were playing EDH with our LGS owner, everyone wins.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
That system assumes WotC (or more likely, Hasbro) cares about LGSs and its player base more than they care about making significant profits - they don’t, sadly.
Players should just let stores buy up the Masters products and singles pick what they need. The price tag is so WotC can make profit off mass sales. They do not care about fostering LGSs or card prices.
It's all cash grab and people need to simply not shell out the cash for inferior overpriced product.
So, yeah, I'm not saying it's a good set, but Prophecy is far worse, and looks even worse as a "lands matter" set in contrast to Zendikar.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So, yeah, I'm not saying it's a good set, but Prophecy is far worse, and looks even worse as a "lands matter" set in contrast to Zendikar.
I'll admit Prophecy is far worse than I actually realised when I have a closer look. I was on hiatus at that time, so I don't have the first-hand experience with it that I have with Homelands.
Interesting that Maro said in his article today that he actually chose Prophecy over Homelands for his example of "worst set ever", and I guess you could argue for both sets. Prophecy at least tried something interesting, even if it failed, with the whole Rhystic and "new ways to look at lands". Homelands was just an incoherent collection of cards mostly (seriously, are there any themes to the set beyond anaemic Dwarf and Minotaur tribal support?). And then the power level: They famously had to introduce a rule at the pro tour that each deck had to have at least 5 cards from each legal set, as that was the only way they could get anyone to play with homelands cards. I don't think things were that dire for Prophecy. (That rule also hilariously led to someone register a red sligh/weenie deck with both Goblins of the Flarg and Dwarven Trader.)
There is also the factor that Homelands could get the benefit of the doubt for being an early set, whereas by the time of Prophecy they really should know better what they were doing. So I guess I could agree to rate Homelands as worst overall, but Prophecy being worst for its time. Other than that, agree to disagree I suppose, as well as agree that bad sets are fun in their own right (once you get over the trauma from actually having played with the things).
All this talk on Prophecy has me thinking that of all the cards from that set, Rhystic Study might actually make a comeback here in Masters 25. I'll eat my own words if it doesn't.
what cycles are available though? allied manlands or allied fast lands? not sure what else
Conspiracy has already proven that WotC can do reprint-heavy draft-focused supplemental sets and not price-gouge us, so I don't know why we accept this $10 a pack nonsense.
The simple answer is we're not the ones buying it. The people primarily purchasing tons of pallets and consuming the boxes are the singles sellers. People do buy a few boxes here and there, but at this point singles sellers get the sets, crack them, and sell the contents. They also buy fairly substantial amounts of product compared to any individual consumer. SCG, CFB, and Card Kingdom all buy loads of product and break them down so people can buy the cards they need.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Err, not exactly true. The reason the sets are so high in cost is because WoTC wants the money themselves. When they found out about how vibrant and lucrative the singles industry really was and how quickly collectors and investors would scoop up anything with high value, they changed how they did sets so as to make sure the ones profiting from their ventures was themselves. I actually said this in another thread already, but basically the way they are doing reprints slowly crumbles the prices on the secondary market with time while keeping them too high for a broader audience to pick up. I'm sure the results are great to present to the stock holders, but it does nothing to help get people into playing the game. We've finally come to the point that the next most popular format is paper pauper because of how expensive the game has become.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It would be ideal if they included cards that have had an impact on the game in certain formats but are high in value as well - Rishadan Port, Food Chain, Mycosynth Lattice, Glimpse of Nature, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Force of Will, Omniscience, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.
Unless Masters 25 has literal Power9 as Expeditions I'm staying far, far away from it. It's hard enough to justify spending $15 a week to do normal drafts.
But after 12 miserable and lost years in Yu-Gi-Oh, I will gladly accept a Reserve List and Masters sets/secondary market as MTG's worst. As much as I'd love them to change. Trust me, you guys have seen nothing.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
And yet they’re scared to reprint good commons too! That was part of what turned me off in IMA - the rares and mythics being disappointing would be easier to stomach if they actually printed the desirable commons and uncommons - if you could open a pack and even if the rare is a dud, at least take some consolation in seeing a few commons that would have been 1-5 dollar commons before the set was announced. Stuff like Ancient Stirrings, Manamorphose, Simian Spirit Guide, Street Wraith, Ponder, Preordain, Gush, Daze, Nettle Sentinel. But even the commons in IMA were almost uniformly trash.
Oh yeah, you mean the game that literally changed the rules and rendered a huge number of cards basically useless over night. Then proceeded to constantly have bans to kill the most popular decks so they can showcase the newest sets over say, having something from a year ago still keep taking first place. Then they claim the big joy of playing the game is that there is no rotation so your cards are always good.
The Reserved List is far from MtGs worst, it's just a lot of people like complaining about it because the RL is the reason that just about all formats not named modern or standard are being overlooked. The secondary market problem is also not completely the fault of Wizards. The main complication in magic is deck building and preparation due to the lands and spell cards all being placed in the same deck as well as dealing with concepts like the mana curve and understanding what strategy one is aiming for. MaRo attempted to simplify the game by forcing a lot of the power into the mid-range 3 to 4 CMC slots and created all in one big game finishers, but that resulted in several overly powerful cards and basically the birth of tron and a few other decks in modern. So basically, Wizards part in this was making battleship creatures and the players fault in this is not having the time to build or strategize, thus being forced onto forums, quick build tools, and online deck listings that shift depending on the meta. WoTC could fix the price issue if they were releasing the masters sets as a form of out of rotation core set, priced at 120 msrp, but they got greedy.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
From what I read I heard masters 25 is going to get a print run similar to iconic masters and that master set got big enough for Walmart and target
The run for iconic masters was about the same size as MM2017, it's just that they didn't have the lands, failed to meet peoples expectations, and just blew themselves up in general through a combination of horrid marketing and product oversaturation with Explorers, a new duel deck, and Unstable. We're really never going to see a perfect storm like that for a long, long time. Not to mention the set was spoiled all the way back at hascon so by the time it arrived it was already old news. The box prices basically tanked into the floor and they aren't going to recover for a while. It will be a year before Iconic Masters goes for 180 a box again.
MM 25 isn't going to go down like Iconic did. They aren't spoiling it far ahead of time, the cards selection will hopefully be better, and we aren't flooded with a ton of secondary products outside of one lone duel deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The Baron's minion can be offended if he wants, but Prophecy has the following:
The "sacrifice a land for minimal benefit" crew: Agent of Shauku, Bog Elemental, Coastal Hornclaw, Coffin Puppets, Trenching Steed, Troubled Healer, Wintermoon Mesa
The "Does this ever do what it's supposed to?" band: Branded Brawlers, Flay, Psychic Theft, Search for Survivors, Rhystic Cave, Veteran Brawlers, Vintara Snapper, Wall of Vipers
The "overly specific hoser" duo: Root Cage, Brutal Suppression
The "too much mana" family: Shrouded Serpent, arguably the entire wind cycle but definitely Blessed Wind and Denying Wind.
The "so close to good" solo act: Thrive
The "seriously, this was worse than what we expected back then even" group: Rhystic Scrying, Hazy Homunculus, Panic Attack, Excise
On phasing:
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Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
This is not me talking out my ass, this was a system that came up while a few of us were playing EDH with our LGS owner, everyone wins.
It's all cash grab and people need to simply not shell out the cash for inferior overpriced product.
Merchant Scroll and Memory Lapse were first printed in Homelands, no? Aether Storm and Feroz's Ban see some play in Stax. And there is some niche use for Primal Order and Koskun Falls in Commander; I've even used Forget in Nekusar. Even An-Zerrin Ruins can be a hoser; it's much better than Root Cage. And I'm sure Mystic Decree has some use with something.
So, yeah, I'm not saying it's a good set, but Prophecy is far worse, and looks even worse as a "lands matter" set in contrast to Zendikar.
On phasing:
I'll admit Prophecy is far worse than I actually realised when I have a closer look. I was on hiatus at that time, so I don't have the first-hand experience with it that I have with Homelands.
Interesting that Maro said in his article today that he actually chose Prophecy over Homelands for his example of "worst set ever", and I guess you could argue for both sets. Prophecy at least tried something interesting, even if it failed, with the whole Rhystic and "new ways to look at lands". Homelands was just an incoherent collection of cards mostly (seriously, are there any themes to the set beyond anaemic Dwarf and Minotaur tribal support?). And then the power level: They famously had to introduce a rule at the pro tour that each deck had to have at least 5 cards from each legal set, as that was the only way they could get anyone to play with homelands cards. I don't think things were that dire for Prophecy. (That rule also hilariously led to someone register a red sligh/weenie deck with both Goblins of the Flarg and Dwarven Trader.)
There is also the factor that Homelands could get the benefit of the doubt for being an early set, whereas by the time of Prophecy they really should know better what they were doing. So I guess I could agree to rate Homelands as worst overall, but Prophecy being worst for its time. Other than that, agree to disagree I suppose, as well as agree that bad sets are fun in their own right (once you get over the trauma from actually having played with the things).
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Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
EDH DECKS
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MAGECRAFT STORM
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