They have to get rid of "feels bad cards" in the set. Sure we cant expect to get value in every pack but at least let it be cards where one could say "yeah i can use that". Pulling a Jugan from a IMA Pack feels aweful since the card is basicall unplayable. Kokusho on the other hand is a card you can use. I mean they can use pricelists to check the value of cards and only put Rares/Mythics with a pricetag around 4-5$ in the set + some chase rares. You still open lots of packs with no value but as long as it not a total fluke card i can live with that. Also not every pack should have a foil, because then those would actually have some value.
There are no "feels bad" cards outside of the bulk draft chaff in the common and uncommon slots. The main problem is the price per pack is being balanced on the price of the most expensive and wanted cards in the set instead of being set based on what people want to pay for the packs. If the packs were 3.50 or 4.25 a pack, suddenly those cards don't feel that bad because even if someone lost money on opening the pack, the amount lost is no where near as much as if the pack costed 10 dollars. The trouble wizards has is that they keep over-pricing products and then over printing them. One of two things happen:
1) if they set the price right so people buy packs and do too big of a run, eventually the value of the cards will drop to the point no one will want to open the packs, mainly because of the "feel bad" cards being worth a few cents.
2) If they over-price the product and release a limited run few people buy it because the price is already too high to make it worth it, mostly because of the "feel bad" cards in the set.
Both result in stale product on the shelf. Both are bad for businesses and players. Why? Because once that threshold gets reached where people don't want to open the packs, the cards that start up-ticking in value are the ones that are actually worth something to players. Hypersonic Dragon will be worthless for a long time, but Horizon Canopy will start up-ticking along with the entire front page of TCGPlayer.
But then you might ask: If the prices climb high enough on the cards and product is still there, wouldn't singles sellers open the boxes? Well, yes. The issue is that when they do this they are hunting specifically for those cards of value and will open even more of the cards that hold little interest, which further drops the prices on the feel bad cards while the prices on the higher end stabilize. That and the prices on the boxes may uptick on the secondary market, thus discouraging box openings anyway.
This is why they can't just do a flashback summer and have an original innistrad limited reprinting. The top and bottom have already been set and the variance would be too high compared to the price per pack. The only thing Wizards of the Coast can do is take older cards that are the top end of an older set and mash them together in a new one. This inevitably would result in a whole new set of feels bad cards that are composed of the bottom end of that set. It's like the cycle of life.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Err, Iconic Masters was a mess and honestly I'm still trying to piece together what exactly happened that resulted in the packs getting repackaged at walmart. From the way things sounded it wasn't as strait forward as WoTC deciding they wanted the product there as much as something else happened that caused packs to end up in the stores.
Unless you are suggesting Hasbro strong-armed and overruled Wizards into shipping 3 booster SKU product after objections, I don't buy this at all. Even before IMA released, the Magic facebook page had a post advertising Target's 3/$10 pack sale and nearly every comment were players asking why is Wizards posting such a huge middle finger to LGS. It's mind boggling how they were lamenting about lack luster sales and attendance at shops and then say "why pay our MSRP at local businesses when you could also get 5% back on your Target Red Card?"
Err, Iconic Masters was a mess and honestly I'm still trying to piece together what exactly happened that resulted in the packs getting repackaged at walmart. From the way things sounded it wasn't as strait forward as WoTC deciding they wanted the product there as much as something else happened that caused packs to end up in the stores.
Unless you are suggesting Hasbro strong-armed and overruled Wizards into shipping 3 booster SKU product after objections, I don't buy this at all. Even before IMA released, the Magic facebook page had a post advertising Target's 3/$10 pack sale and nearly every comment were players asking why is Wizards posting such a huge middle finger to LGS. It's mind boggling how they were lamenting about lack luster sales and attendance at shops and then say "why pay our MSRP at local businesses when you could also get 5% back on your Target Red Card?"
No one strong armed anyone. There was a mishap in order numbers and supposedly someone backed out of their order. Somehow this ended up with the excess going into big box stores, but I got no idea of the details on how this all happened. From the way it sounds WoTC is just rolling with the story people believe in that they are the ones responsible for it and are now releasing the new set via big box as well. So yeah, end results the same either way, I guess?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No one strong armed anyone. There was a mishap in order numbers and supposedly someone backed out of their order. Somehow this ended up with the excess going into big box stores, but I got no idea of the details on how this all happened. From the way it sounds WoTC is just rolling with the story people believe in that they are the ones responsible for it and are now releasing the new set via big box as well. So yeah, end results the same either way, I guess?
The 3-pack Unstable and IMA products are WotC-marketed products. Any loose single-pack Unstable or IMA items at the big box stores are done by the third-party card vendor that stocks those places. That part is not WotC's doing.
Unfortunately, the current economics says that MTG is just another card game, so "let us maximize the distribution," which means selling boosters at big box retailers.
What WotC ought to be doing to support LGSes is providing good FNM cards and possibly restoring the Player Rewards program for LGS tournament participation. You cannot get those items at the big box retailer.
I'm not sure the frequency of giving out FNM promos/Player Reward Programs is sufficient to encourage the kind of turnover and feet an average LGS needs to keep its doors open.
On the other hand, if better FNM Promos and other LGS-only incentives started being implemented it would encourage better attendance. They've got the data on the most played/in demand cards across formats, start incorporating that into incentive programs. I'm surprised WotC hasn't come up with something more innovative in terms of incentives considering the amount of cards in need of reprints when it comes to themed giveaways or prizes.
What, you mean a shiny Brass' Bounty isn't enough to get you to buy a box at the LGS instead of at Walmart or online?
The packs they did for Ixalan were fantastic. Really happy with what I got from my one.
I'm really surprised they didn't continue with them.
Would've been nice to be notified of that in a much clearer manner. Both my local LGSes were outright confused on what those packs were supposed to be for. On day 0, when some people realized what it was intended for, there was this mass scramble to get more than one pack so a lot of preorders went without. Yes... I was one of the pre-orders. I was not happy about it.
Sam bull**** WotC does when they offer up something extra a month or two down the road after pre-orders go through to get people to buy more boxes. Ugh...
It was funny when they kept upping the ante on what you'd get from buying a box at a WPN LGS.
Release: Burning Sun's Avatar
Two weeks after: Showdown style packs with Burning Sun's Avatar
Black Friday: Showdown style packs with double the amount of cards and alternate art Ixalan flip land
Really, at this sort of escalation, Dominaria's buy a box promo pack should be a full set of ABU duals and an alternate art piece of Power.
There are no "feels bad" cards outside of the bulk draft chaff in the common and uncommon slots.
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. There are a metric crapton of feel-bad rares in Masters Sets, its littered with them. 35 cent rares have NO place in a 10 dollar pack of cards, they don't even in a 7 dollar pack of cards.
Also not every pack should have a foil, because then those would actually have some value.
I firmly disagree here as well. If you are paying 10 bucks for a pack, there better damn well be some value in the pack, not a bunch of useless 35 cent and less cards. Foils need to be offered at the uncommon and up level in EVERY pack. Foil commons are worthless because they are worthless to play, not because they are in oversupply.
Not trying to ignite a controversy. Just saying my 2 cents. Regards to both of you.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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There are no "feels bad" cards outside of the bulk draft chaff in the common and uncommon slots.
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. There are a metric crapton of feel-bad rares in Masters Sets, its littered with them. 35 cent rares have NO place in a 10 dollar pack of cards, they don't even in a 7 dollar pack of cards.
Agreeing with Warmachine here. Having cards in Masters sets that were recently reprinted in precons is a kick in the teeth. Opening a mythic Past in Flames in a MM17 booster when you got one in your C16 deck put me off Masters sets. That could have been one of theythics I wanted, but no. And Call of the Herd at rare as well? Then have it in the next Duel Deck?
As someone who was priced out of magic by time/money, these sets don't even hit my radar until they go on mtgo at which point I will do MANY phantom drafts. I don't care about card collecting anymore, but I love draft formats.
That said, if these packs were normal price then I would probably make time for an in-person draft or two as I did with Unstable. I can't justify the cost though for cards I will never use or care about.
Making them a limited run, at a higher MSRP seems like it would make LESS sense from a sales/marketing standpoint. The only reason I could see for them doing this is so that you quickly turn your head back to standard, as they still have a lot of Rivals of Ixalon boxes to sell at a cheaper price.
There are no "feels bad" cards outside of the bulk draft chaff in the common and uncommon slots.
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. There are a metric crapton of feel-bad rares in Masters Sets, its littered with them. 35 cent rares have NO place in a 10 dollar pack of cards, they don't even in a 7 dollar pack of cards.
Yep this has often be said was the problem if they made these like ANY other set they have sold at nomral pack MSRP they would be the most beloved sets every printed. At $10 a pop make sure that the cut off is not horrable.
Also not every pack should have a foil, because then those would actually have some value.
I firmly disagree here as well. If you are paying 10 bucks for a pack, there better damn well be some value in the pack, not a bunch of useless 35 cent and less cards. Foils need to be offered at the uncommon and up level in EVERY pack. Foil commons are worthless because they are worthless to play, not because they are in oversupply.
Not trying to ignite a controversy. Just saying my 2 cents. Regards to both of you.
If your willing to include basic land in that breakdown for foils I can be on board with that. (never really unhappy with a foil basic in the foil slot wish unstable had more )
If your willing to include basic land in that breakdown for foils I can be on board with that. (never really unhappy with a foil basic in the foil slot wish unstable had more )
More foil basic lands I can get behind, unless they are part of FNM in which case they're definitely not worth it.
I've noticed that this year especially, WoTC has been pitching the 56 original cards released in the 4 new Commander 2017 decks as being legal in Vintage and Legacy. It's gotten people especially excited this time 'round I feel, due to the recently announced return of legacy to the Pro Tour. There are some factors going on here that make me think that WoTC is trying to do too much - with so little.
56 Cards may not be enough dedication of design space for even the Commander product, let alone Vintage and Legacy. Too much canvas is trying to be covered with the amount of paint you've got to work with here, WoTC.
After having seen the rather lackluster list of reprints this year for C17, it became aware to me (I think) that this product's hit-and-miss quality over the years is a direct result of the top-down design that this product suffers as a result of this seemingly arbitrary 'rule of 56' as I'll call it. The 56 new cards.
After having seen the 56 originals first and the reprints second, I got the impression that the teams of people who were working on this product would have had their effort better served by not being "put into a box" - a 56 card box - and could have put together a better end result for us if they had more room for freedom of design.
Select the theme for the year's commander product. Next, select the reprints you need to target. Now that you have a framework of reprints, fill in the gaps with new cards that we as players will need to complete the theme. Then give us the commander staples, new and old. This is also your space for finishing land cycles as well - something that is rarely touched on. A few 56 cards is not enough design space to accomplish this task. It is also not enough design space to try to balance said card's power levels for the sake of Vintage and Legacy.
The design teams for Commander products should also be able to use one of the slots for a "new card" to be a functional reprint of an old card if the equivalent reprint isn't practical. This allows for more flexibility. This is ok in the world of EDH players because we work with singletons, we appreciate having functional reprints if it's done the right way. A good example for C17 would have been to select the tribe, pick the reprints of all of the necessary tribal related effects, wherever those tribal aspects end that need to be filled in to flush out the tribe's synergy/power is where you drop a new card - to fill that unoccupied space. Currently this didn't happen because that "new" card slot is trying to serve too many purposes and the end result is this batch of tribe decks with holes in their synergy, like a lack of lord-effects
Currently a customer looks at the Commander product and they can expect to see it as a place for: commander staples, commander-specific-reprints, reprints for the specific theme(s) of the year and (among other things) also a place of design space where we see absolutely crucial lands come from.
Now we're approaching the perilous path of expecting much more from this Commander product it would seem, we're coming to expect the reprints and originals to be the kinds of cards that are otherwise too powerful to be printed into Standard or even into modern and by virtue of the product these cards are in, Commander, we'd expect some of the reprints and new cards to be on that level of power.
I think WoTC can deliver us a much better Commander product if they allow for a broader design space by dropping the 56-card-albatross from around their neck. We can get better products for Vintage and Legacy players too if they didn't have any new cards being printed put through the filter of EDH. Use the Eternal, Iconic and M25 Masters series to introduce new cards dedicated for Vintage and Legacy, shape that into something independent for those formats because they certainly need it.
Please share your thoughts on any of the subjects I touched on or how you think WoTC could improve the Commander product. Even if you disagree with me please let's have this conversation because if it's a big enough conversation it can become noticed! Thanks.
EDIT:
TLDR; WoTC shouldn't sell Commander as the place for new Vintage and Legacy cards if they're only going to have 56 slots for new cards per year, doing so is a disservice to 3 formats; increase the ceiling on this number so you can print more supplemental products that are additional sources for new cards that do not have to pass through the conceptual filters created by the draft environment or the Standard format. Additionally, all Masters sets should have new card printings, similar to the 56 card concept seen in Commander sets, whose set legality bypasses other sets.
It's high time to improve the current model and give the Modern, Eternal, Iconic and frankly ALL Masters series some "gravitas" like what Commander has and give all of these formats places for increased card design IN THE FORM OF NEW CARD PRINTINGS THAT CAN SKIP FORMATS.
If your willing to include basic land in that breakdown for foils I can be on board with that. (never really unhappy with a foil basic in the foil slot wish unstable had more )
More foil basic lands I can get behind, unless they are part of FNM in which case they're definitely not worth it.
Tell you what, I'd be for no foil commons and the occasional foil common land IF it was an alternate art land, not found in the basic set. This way it would be a more desirable (and more valuable) addition. A premium card should be included in a premium pack. Basic art lands, albeit foiled still say regular old $3.99 Standard booster inclusions and don't really say premium. Decent compromise?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Well, I think pauper will add a lot more value to master sets than legacy in general, but that's because the big issue with masters sets is that they keep picking cards that are high priced on the market, but then don't analyze why they are high priced on the market. I'd argue that Iconic masters would still have been below the 240 msrp even without selling in big box stores because only a few of the cards in the top end actually hold a price tag from play.
The mistake wizards has made with masters sets is that they are not identifying what makes a masters set worth 240 msrp that well. To make a set worth that much per box, it has to have literally zero dead cards for constructed and those cards have to be heavily played across potentially multiple formats. How many cards really fall into that category? Also, the fact that the Reserved List exists means they can't just take really good or hot item cards like Lotus Veil and reprint them as a response to Blood Sun.
The truth is WoTC just prices way too many people out of their products due to their over zealous nature with setting product prices. They haven't really released any awful products as much as just made products awful by charging too much, and the market tends to agree with this. I know I'd have picked up Explorers of Ixalan if the price was 25 usd, but I think it was 60 msrp for some reason.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The truth is WoTC just prices way too many people out of their products due to their over zealous nature with setting product prices. They haven't really released any awful products as much as just made products awful by charging too much, and the market tends to agree with this. I know I'd have picked up Explorers of Ixalan if the price was 25 usd, but I think it was 60 msrp for some reason.
Explorers of Ixalan is $64.99 ($65) on Wizards' product page. They probably justified the pricing, because it's 4 decks plus game pieces for the map. An intro or Planeswalker deck were priced somewhere around $14.99, so 4 of them is about $60. The 4-pack Holiday boxes were $19.99, but booster packs were $3.99 each. So, Wizards is pricing these items consistently.
The truth is WoTC just prices way too many people out of their products due to their over zealous nature with setting product prices. They haven't really released any awful products as much as just made products awful by charging too much, and the market tends to agree with this. I know I'd have picked up Explorers of Ixalan if the price was 25 usd, but I think it was 60 msrp for some reason.
Explorers of Ixalan is $64.99 ($65) on Wizards' product page. They probably justified the pricing, because it's 4 decks plus game pieces for the map. An intro or Planeswalker deck were priced somewhere around $14.99, so 4 of them is about $60. The 4-pack Holiday boxes were $19.99, but booster packs were $3.99 each. So, Wizards is pricing these items consistently.
Priced consistently doesn't necessarily mean priced correctly. Things like Explorers of Ixalan should feel like a good deal to a player. When they price them to be exactly the same price as 4 decks would be seperately and they aren't even above average decks, that makes the entire set feel bad. Not to mention the board game is not very substantial. They are competing with things like Monopoly gamer, which can be had for 25 usd and has way more substance to it than Explorers does. So they made a product where it's a hard sell to people who play magic and is not substantial enough to compete on the casual gamer side as well. Not to mention the game fails to tell people who buy it how to play magic to begin with. I honestly don't know what the deal was with that product. My friends and I thought the game would have been fine if it was a bonus in the Rivals of Ixalan Bundle or even the old Ixalan bundles. They'd probably have sold a lot more of them and the cost to make the pieces for the actual game are pretty cheap so I doubt they'd have to have raised the price on bundle boxes by much.
Wow, just thought about how nice it would be if they gave out promotional games like Explorers of Ixalan for buying at least two booster boxes at the LGS. Actually, given they aren't going anywhere maybe they will end up in repacks?
Back on subject, I think there already are a bunch of cards on the line up for reprint for commander. Nirkana Revenant comes to mind as being a high dollar card that will show up.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Then give us the commander staples, new and old. This is also your space for finishing land cycles as well - something that is rarely touched on.
[...]
It's high time to improve the current model and give the Modern, Eternal, Iconic and frankly ALL Masters series some "gravitas" like what Commander has and give all of these formats places for increased card design IN THE FORM OF NEW CARD PRINTINGS THAT CAN SKIP FORMATS.
Isn't the stated purpose of Masters sets to increase the available printings of certain cards to lower the threshold rather than creating more exclusive "must-have" cards? Finishing land cycles in a relatively low-volume supplemental product would mean that those cycles would be in incredibly high demand and soon after the release lead to new levels of rising prices, right?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Just for clarity since I have not much experience with MTGO; are those cards you keep, or phantom draft?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Read up on Red Flags & NWO
There are no "feels bad" cards outside of the bulk draft chaff in the common and uncommon slots. The main problem is the price per pack is being balanced on the price of the most expensive and wanted cards in the set instead of being set based on what people want to pay for the packs. If the packs were 3.50 or 4.25 a pack, suddenly those cards don't feel that bad because even if someone lost money on opening the pack, the amount lost is no where near as much as if the pack costed 10 dollars. The trouble wizards has is that they keep over-pricing products and then over printing them. One of two things happen:
1) if they set the price right so people buy packs and do too big of a run, eventually the value of the cards will drop to the point no one will want to open the packs, mainly because of the "feel bad" cards being worth a few cents.
2) If they over-price the product and release a limited run few people buy it because the price is already too high to make it worth it, mostly because of the "feel bad" cards in the set.
Both result in stale product on the shelf. Both are bad for businesses and players. Why? Because once that threshold gets reached where people don't want to open the packs, the cards that start up-ticking in value are the ones that are actually worth something to players. Hypersonic Dragon will be worthless for a long time, but Horizon Canopy will start up-ticking along with the entire front page of TCGPlayer.
But then you might ask: If the prices climb high enough on the cards and product is still there, wouldn't singles sellers open the boxes? Well, yes. The issue is that when they do this they are hunting specifically for those cards of value and will open even more of the cards that hold little interest, which further drops the prices on the feel bad cards while the prices on the higher end stabilize. That and the prices on the boxes may uptick on the secondary market, thus discouraging box openings anyway.
This is why they can't just do a flashback summer and have an original innistrad limited reprinting. The top and bottom have already been set and the variance would be too high compared to the price per pack. The only thing Wizards of the Coast can do is take older cards that are the top end of an older set and mash them together in a new one. This inevitably would result in a whole new set of feels bad cards that are composed of the bottom end of that set. It's like the cycle of life.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Unless you are suggesting Hasbro strong-armed and overruled Wizards into shipping 3 booster SKU product after objections, I don't buy this at all. Even before IMA released, the Magic facebook page had a post advertising Target's 3/$10 pack sale and nearly every comment were players asking why is Wizards posting such a huge middle finger to LGS. It's mind boggling how they were lamenting about lack luster sales and attendance at shops and then say "why pay our MSRP at local businesses when you could also get 5% back on your Target Red Card?"
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
No one strong armed anyone. There was a mishap in order numbers and supposedly someone backed out of their order. Somehow this ended up with the excess going into big box stores, but I got no idea of the details on how this all happened. From the way it sounds WoTC is just rolling with the story people believe in that they are the ones responsible for it and are now releasing the new set via big box as well. So yeah, end results the same either way, I guess?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The 3-pack Unstable and IMA products are WotC-marketed products. Any loose single-pack Unstable or IMA items at the big box stores are done by the third-party card vendor that stocks those places. That part is not WotC's doing.
Unfortunately, the current economics says that MTG is just another card game, so "let us maximize the distribution," which means selling boosters at big box retailers.
What WotC ought to be doing to support LGSes is providing good FNM cards and possibly restoring the Player Rewards program for LGS tournament participation. You cannot get those items at the big box retailer.
On the other hand, if better FNM Promos and other LGS-only incentives started being implemented it would encourage better attendance. They've got the data on the most played/in demand cards across formats, start incorporating that into incentive programs. I'm surprised WotC hasn't come up with something more innovative in terms of incentives considering the amount of cards in need of reprints when it comes to themed giveaways or prizes.
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
The packs they did for Ixalan were fantastic. Really happy with what I got from my one.
I'm really surprised they didn't continue with them.
Would've been nice to be notified of that in a much clearer manner. Both my local LGSes were outright confused on what those packs were supposed to be for. On day 0, when some people realized what it was intended for, there was this mass scramble to get more than one pack so a lot of preorders went without. Yes... I was one of the pre-orders. I was not happy about it.
Sam bull**** WotC does when they offer up something extra a month or two down the road after pre-orders go through to get people to buy more boxes. Ugh...
Release: Burning Sun's Avatar
Two weeks after: Showdown style packs with Burning Sun's Avatar
Black Friday: Showdown style packs with double the amount of cards and alternate art Ixalan flip land
Really, at this sort of escalation, Dominaria's buy a box promo pack should be a full set of ABU duals and an alternate art piece of Power.
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. There are a metric crapton of feel-bad rares in Masters Sets, its littered with them. 35 cent rares have NO place in a 10 dollar pack of cards, they don't even in a 7 dollar pack of cards.
I firmly disagree here as well. If you are paying 10 bucks for a pack, there better damn well be some value in the pack, not a bunch of useless 35 cent and less cards. Foils need to be offered at the uncommon and up level in EVERY pack. Foil commons are worthless because they are worthless to play, not because they are in oversupply.
Not trying to ignite a controversy. Just saying my 2 cents. Regards to both of you.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Agreeing with Warmachine here. Having cards in Masters sets that were recently reprinted in precons is a kick in the teeth. Opening a mythic Past in Flames in a MM17 booster when you got one in your C16 deck put me off Masters sets. That could have been one of theythics I wanted, but no. And Call of the Herd at rare as well? Then have it in the next Duel Deck?
That said, if these packs were normal price then I would probably make time for an in-person draft or two as I did with Unstable. I can't justify the cost though for cards I will never use or care about.
Making them a limited run, at a higher MSRP seems like it would make LESS sense from a sales/marketing standpoint. The only reason I could see for them doing this is so that you quickly turn your head back to standard, as they still have a lot of Rivals of Ixalon boxes to sell at a cheaper price.
If your willing to include basic land in that breakdown for foils I can be on board with that. (never really unhappy with a foil basic in the foil slot wish unstable had more )
More foil basic lands I can get behind, unless they are part of FNM in which case they're definitely not worth it.
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EDIT: please also see my most recent post (below) as a supplement to the ideas brought up in this original post. Ty!
Hello all,
I've noticed that this year especially, WoTC has been pitching the 56 original cards released in the 4 new Commander 2017 decks as being legal in Vintage and Legacy. It's gotten people especially excited this time 'round I feel, due to the recently announced return of legacy to the Pro Tour. There are some factors going on here that make me think that WoTC is trying to do too much - with so little.
56 Cards may not be enough dedication of design space for even the Commander product, let alone Vintage and Legacy. Too much canvas is trying to be covered with the amount of paint you've got to work with here, WoTC.
After having seen the rather lackluster list of reprints this year for C17, it became aware to me (I think) that this product's hit-and-miss quality over the years is a direct result of the top-down design that this product suffers as a result of this seemingly arbitrary 'rule of 56' as I'll call it. The 56 new cards.
After having seen the 56 originals first and the reprints second, I got the impression that the teams of people who were working on this product would have had their effort better served by not being "put into a box" - a 56 card box - and could have put together a better end result for us if they had more room for freedom of design.
Select the theme for the year's commander product. Next, select the reprints you need to target. Now that you have a framework of reprints, fill in the gaps with new cards that we as players will need to complete the theme. Then give us the commander staples, new and old. This is also your space for finishing land cycles as well - something that is rarely touched on. A few 56 cards is not enough design space to accomplish this task. It is also not enough design space to try to balance said card's power levels for the sake of Vintage and Legacy.
The design teams for Commander products should also be able to use one of the slots for a "new card" to be a functional reprint of an old card if the equivalent reprint isn't practical. This allows for more flexibility. This is ok in the world of EDH players because we work with singletons, we appreciate having functional reprints if it's done the right way. A good example for C17 would have been to select the tribe, pick the reprints of all of the necessary tribal related effects, wherever those tribal aspects end that need to be filled in to flush out the tribe's synergy/power is where you drop a new card - to fill that unoccupied space. Currently this didn't happen because that "new" card slot is trying to serve too many purposes and the end result is this batch of tribe decks with holes in their synergy, like a lack of lord-effects
Currently a customer looks at the Commander product and they can expect to see it as a place for: commander staples, commander-specific-reprints, reprints for the specific theme(s) of the year and (among other things) also a place of design space where we see absolutely crucial lands come from.
Now we're approaching the perilous path of expecting much more from this Commander product it would seem, we're coming to expect the reprints and originals to be the kinds of cards that are otherwise too powerful to be printed into Standard or even into modern and by virtue of the product these cards are in, Commander, we'd expect some of the reprints and new cards to be on that level of power.
I think WoTC can deliver us a much better Commander product if they allow for a broader design space by dropping the 56-card-albatross from around their neck. We can get better products for Vintage and Legacy players too if they didn't have any new cards being printed put through the filter of EDH. Use the Eternal, Iconic and M25 Masters series to introduce new cards dedicated for Vintage and Legacy, shape that into something independent for those formats because they certainly need it.
Please share your thoughts on any of the subjects I touched on or how you think WoTC could improve the Commander product. Even if you disagree with me please let's have this conversation because if it's a big enough conversation it can become noticed! Thanks.
EDIT:
TLDR; WoTC shouldn't sell Commander as the place for new Vintage and Legacy cards if they're only going to have 56 slots for new cards per year, doing so is a disservice to 3 formats; increase the ceiling on this number so you can print more supplemental products that are additional sources for new cards that do not have to pass through the conceptual filters created by the draft environment or the Standard format. Additionally, all Masters sets should have new card printings, similar to the 56 card concept seen in Commander sets, whose set legality bypasses other sets.
It's high time to improve the current model and give the Modern, Eternal, Iconic and frankly ALL Masters series some "gravitas" like what Commander has and give all of these formats places for increased card design IN THE FORM OF NEW CARD PRINTINGS THAT CAN SKIP FORMATS.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
But thats so obvisious to pretty much anyone, WotC will sell it as a "genius idea" in like 5 years ... (thats how fast they are with clever ideas)
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Tell you what, I'd be for no foil commons and the occasional foil common land IF it was an alternate art land, not found in the basic set. This way it would be a more desirable (and more valuable) addition. A premium card should be included in a premium pack. Basic art lands, albeit foiled still say regular old $3.99 Standard booster inclusions and don't really say premium. Decent compromise?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The mistake wizards has made with masters sets is that they are not identifying what makes a masters set worth 240 msrp that well. To make a set worth that much per box, it has to have literally zero dead cards for constructed and those cards have to be heavily played across potentially multiple formats. How many cards really fall into that category? Also, the fact that the Reserved List exists means they can't just take really good or hot item cards like Lotus Veil and reprint them as a response to Blood Sun.
The truth is WoTC just prices way too many people out of their products due to their over zealous nature with setting product prices. They haven't really released any awful products as much as just made products awful by charging too much, and the market tends to agree with this. I know I'd have picked up Explorers of Ixalan if the price was 25 usd, but I think it was 60 msrp for some reason.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Explorers of Ixalan is $64.99 ($65) on Wizards' product page. They probably justified the pricing, because it's 4 decks plus game pieces for the map. An intro or Planeswalker deck were priced somewhere around $14.99, so 4 of them is about $60. The 4-pack Holiday boxes were $19.99, but booster packs were $3.99 each. So, Wizards is pricing these items consistently.
Priced consistently doesn't necessarily mean priced correctly. Things like Explorers of Ixalan should feel like a good deal to a player. When they price them to be exactly the same price as 4 decks would be seperately and they aren't even above average decks, that makes the entire set feel bad. Not to mention the board game is not very substantial. They are competing with things like Monopoly gamer, which can be had for 25 usd and has way more substance to it than Explorers does. So they made a product where it's a hard sell to people who play magic and is not substantial enough to compete on the casual gamer side as well. Not to mention the game fails to tell people who buy it how to play magic to begin with. I honestly don't know what the deal was with that product. My friends and I thought the game would have been fine if it was a bonus in the Rivals of Ixalan Bundle or even the old Ixalan bundles. They'd probably have sold a lot more of them and the cost to make the pieces for the actual game are pretty cheap so I doubt they'd have to have raised the price on bundle boxes by much.
Wow, just thought about how nice it would be if they gave out promotional games like Explorers of Ixalan for buying at least two booster boxes at the LGS. Actually, given they aren't going anywhere maybe they will end up in repacks?
Back on subject, I think there already are a bunch of cards on the line up for reprint for commander. Nirkana Revenant comes to mind as being a high dollar card that will show up.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Isn't the stated purpose of Masters sets to increase the available printings of certain cards to lower the threshold rather than creating more exclusive "must-have" cards? Finishing land cycles in a relatively low-volume supplemental product would mean that those cycles would be in incredibly high demand and soon after the release lead to new levels of rising prices, right?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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They can't. They've aptly proven they can't, multiple times.
And please, for the love of everything, do not wish for such an evil to happen to Commander as what has happened in Modern, Legacy, etc.