I guess. Sphinx's Revelation on a stick with a big flyer. I wish that they couldn't cast any spells.
That's way too abusable with blinks though.
Finally an Azorius legend I would make an EDH with. It certainly stops Zurgo Helmsmasher decks from casting their infamous board wipe sorceries. A detain/blink deck I might make...
On a second look, I like the Dino for formats with eternal cardpools(Commander/Casual), as it’s a 2 card combo with Aether Flash. But, does that create an infinite loop that results in a draw?
Yup. I was just thinking about that after mentioning Aether Flash earlier in this thread. There's no decisionmaking, no stopping mechanism. If this guy lands on a battlefield that has an Aether Flash, the game will end in a draw.
yes, if you dont have a way to prevent the damage, counter some ability, get rid of a copy of the dinossaur or the enchantment itself, then yes, the game ends in a draw.
if you can do anything like that, you end up with an arbitrary large number of dinosaurs.
On a second look, I like the Dino for formats with eternal cardpools(Commander/Casual), as it’s a 2 card combo with Aether Flash. But, does that create an infinite loop that results in a draw?
Yup. I was just thinking about that after mentioning Aether Flash earlier in this thread. There's no decisionmaking, no stopping mechanism. If this guy lands on a battlefield that has an Aether Flash, the game will end in a draw.
yes, if you dont have a way to prevent the damage, counter some ability, get rid of a copy of the dinossaur or the enchantment itself, then yes, the game ends in a draw.
if you can do anything like that, you end up with an arbitrary large number of dinosaurs.
Not 8 in total? You should double your number of raptors for each point of toughness the Forerunner has.
You should actually end up with 16 dinosaurs.
Original enters, triggers Forerunner, Original is enraged makes a token.
Token enters, triggers Forerunner. Original and Copy 1 both enrage, to make 2 copies.
Both copies trigger Forerunner. First Forerunner ability resolves, Forerunner dies, Original and 3 copies and enraged, so make four tokens.
Second Forerunner ability resolves, Original and 7 copies and enraged, so makes 8 more tokens.
There we go. One original Polyraptor and 15 copies, unless I'm missing anything.
Edit - My maths is off. I mistakenly had the two tokens entering at the same time, which of course they don't.
I got 8 Polyraptors. Does the third iteration of the loop, causing 2 Forerunner triggers, allow both triggers to resolve and deal damage or does the last trigger fail because the Forerunner is already dead from having done lethal damage to itself? If the last trigger fails the first raptor remains alive with only 4 damage marked on it but it if succeeds the first raptor dies from the delayed damage.
Either way, 7 or 8 5/5 creatures should be more than enough.
Let us not consider what would happen if we had played Anointed Procession in between the Forerunner and the Polyraptor.
The ETB effect isn't as good as you think it is. He still can be killed by instants on your current turn, and in EDH, he can be killed by instants during other player's turns. What you want to see is "When ~ enters the battlefield, each opponent can't cast instants or sorcery spells until your next turn", which is what Sphinx's Decree also should've been, but perhaps that would've been overkill. As it stands, in EDH at least, he can still be killed by instants the turn he comes down and during other players' turns. At least that's how I read the ability.
This needed a keyword. It’s a Mythic, and yet it screams bulk rare. Think of Rampaging Baloths, a 6/6 for 6, with trample, that spat out landfall 4/4 beast tokens.
Now, this is more along the lines of Mirror-Sigil Seargant, as it floods the board even more with each copy made, but it’s very easy for your opponent to work around. It should have costed 6, though.
Original Zendikar block was power creeped like hell, it's not a good comparison, besides Azor serves a different color and a different purpose.
Not 8 in total? You should double your number of raptors for each point of toughness the Forerunner has.
Forerunner on field, cast Polly1.
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1 and Forerunner take 1 damage.
Polly1's enrage triggers, create Polly2.
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, Polly2, and Forerunner take 1 damage. Polly1 has now taken 2, as has Forerunner.
Polly1's and Polly2's enrage triggers, putting create Polly3 and create Polly4 on stack.
Polly4 gets created (Polly3 still hasn't! It's still on stack).
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, 2, and 4 enrage triggers (and Forerunner dies), stacking triggers to create Polly5, Polly6, and Polly7.
Polly7 is created
Polly6 is created
Polly5 is created
Then, finally, Polly3 is created.
EDIT:
BUT! Forerunner's trigger is OPTIONAL. Whups. So the player could choose not to have Forerunner trigger on Polly3 landing and wait til Polly4 lands. Then you would get 8. If forerunner's trigger was mandatory it would be 7.
I got 8 Polyraptors. Does the third iteration of the loop, causing 2 Forerunner triggers, allow both triggers to resolve and deal damage or does the last trigger fail because the Forerunner is already dead from having done lethal damage to itself? If the last trigger fails the first raptor remains alive with only 4 damage marked on it but it if succeeds the first raptor dies from the delayed damage.
Either way, 7 or 8 5/5 creatures should be more than enough.
Let us not consider what would happen if we had played Anointed Procession in between the Forerunner and the Polyraptor.
The last trigger from the Forerunner will resolve no problem.
But how do you get the original dying? It is a 5/5 that should end up with four damage marked on it? 1 damage from Original entering, 1 damage from first token entering, 2 damage from the next two tokens entering. But by this point the Forerunner, who is just a 1/3 is dead, so won't be triggering anymore.
The last trigger from the Forerunner will resolve no problem.
But how do you get the original dying? It is a 5/5 that should end up with four damage marked on it? 1 damage from Original entering, 1 damage from first token entering, 2 damage from the next two tokens entering. But by this point the Forerunner, who is just a 1/3 is dead, so won't be triggering anymore.
I probably miscounted, which should teach me not to try and do such things while I am at work...on the phone...resolving someone's computer-based problem.
I'm thinking there's no more Dinos besides that one and the title is just a play on Polyraptor's ability.
This wasn't the playable dinosaur I was looking for in standard. It is an absolute bomb in limited though. With that red forerunner and this afterward, you'd make 6 Polyraptor which is Christmasland but whatever.
You'd make six. I'd make eight with the same investment.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
On a second look, I like the Dino for formats with eternal cardpools(Commander/Casual), as it’s a 2 card combo with Aether Flash. But, does that create an infinite loop that results in a draw?
Yup. I was just thinking about that after mentioning Aether Flash earlier in this thread. There's no decisionmaking, no stopping mechanism. If this guy lands on a battlefield that has an Aether Flash, the game will end in a draw.
yes, if you dont have a way to prevent the damage, counter some ability, get rid of a copy of the dinossaur or the enchantment itself, then yes, the game ends in a draw.
if you can do anything like that, you end up with an arbitrary large number of dinosaurs.
sure, lol, you can just add something else to the combo so you win on the spot instead of keeping 2 billion dinosaurs.
I mean literally all it takes to stop the infinite triggers drawing the game is High Market or another simple sac outlet, the point is while the combo technically draws the game its so easy to turn into a win or at least turn into infinite creatures it could very easily be useful
Yes, please post your work (and the question) I'm not sure what "combo" this is
The combo was simply playing Polyraptor while you have a Forerunner of the Empire out (which is easy to asssemble because Forerunner tutors the Polyraptor to the top of your deck for you!). The Forerunner can deal 1 damage to all creatures when a Dinosaur enters the battlefield, and Polyraptors make copies of themselves when they get damaged; the copies entering the battlefield would in turn trigger the Forerunner again...
I posted it above (#61) though I suspect the poster you replied to made the same initial mistake I did... thinking Forerunner's "When a dinosaur enters the battlefield under your control, deal 1 damage to each creature" trigger was mandatory. If it was mandatory, playing a Polyraptor with a Forerunner out would result in 7 Polyraptors. Because Forerunner is a 'may' trigger, choosing not to have it fire the third time it could (allowing it to survive and fire on the fourth trigger instead, when there's one more Polyraptor in play) results in getting 8.
If trigger was mandatory:
Forerunner on field, cast Polly1.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1 and Forerunner take 1 damage.
Polly1's enrage triggers, create Polly2.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, Polly2, and Forerunner take 1 damage. Polly1 has now taken 2, as has Forerunner.
Polly1's and Polly2's enrage triggers, putting create Polly3 and create Polly4 on stack.
Polly4 gets created (Polly3 still hasn't! It's still on stack).
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, 2, and 4 enrage triggers (and Forerunner dies), stacking triggers to create Polly5, Polly6, and Polly7.
Polly7 is created
Polly6 is created
Polly5 is created
Then, finally, Polly3 is created.
Since trigger is optional, a preferable sequence goes:
Forerunner on field, cast Polly1.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1 and Forerunner take 1 damage.
Polly1's enrage triggers, create Polly2.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, Polly2, and Forerunner take 1 damage. Polly1 has now taken 2, as has Forerunner.
Polly1's and Polly2's enrage triggers, putting create Polly3 and create Polly4 on stack.
Polly4 gets created (Polly3 still hasn't! It's still on stack).
Forerunner triggers, you DECLINE to have Forerunner deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly3 gets created.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, 2, 3 and 4 enrage triggers (and Forerunner dies), stacking triggers to create Polly5, Polly6, Polly7, Polly8.
Polly8 is created
Polly7 is created
Polly6 is created
Polly5 is created
Again, Forerunner's trigger is optional. Even if Forerunner for some reason can't die (Rite of Passage, Protection from Red, Indestructible...), all you need to do to prevent the draw is choose to have the trigger *not* deal damage. You don't need any other cards to stop things. (Aether Flash is mandatory, though, so you best have a stopper ready if that's your play).
Goblin Bombardment also works, literally any sac outlet or non-damage removal spell and haste. Its really not hard to turn infinite creatures into an instant win and this seems like a pretty easy way to get infinite creatures
Goblin Bombardment also works, literally any sac outlet or non-damage removal spell and haste. Its really not hard to turn infinite creatures into an instant win and this seems like a pretty easy way to get infinite creatures
"Easy" is pretty relative. I mean, this creature costs *8 mana*. There exist 2-card infinite-creature combos that cost far less that should, theoretically, be easier.
Goblin Bombardment also works, literally any sac outlet or non-damage removal spell and haste. Its really not hard to turn infinite creatures into an instant win and this seems like a pretty easy way to get infinite creatures
"Easy" is pretty relative. I mean, this creature costs *8 mana*. There exist 2-card infinite-creature combos that cost far less that should, theoretically, be easier.
I mean sure this is probably worse than any Kiki-Jiki combo but Kiki-Jiki is a completely busted card, If Wizards is actually doing their job right we will likely never see a card that stupid ever again
Azor is awesome to see on a card. Unfortunately, the card is less awesome. It's expensive, vulnerable to removal (though it is somewhat disruptive) and this rev is nowhere near as good as the original (or is rev better than the og flavorwise hmmmm).
The eight mana thing just seems bad. There could be some fun combos/gimmicks, but it seems like a lot of work to make a card that is already 8 mana wok (did I mention it is 8 mana).
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
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That's way too abusable with blinks though.
Finally an Azorius legend I would make an EDH with. It certainly stops Zurgo Helmsmasher decks from casting their infamous board wipe sorceries. A detain/blink deck I might make...
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Good thing there are plenty of Impact Tremors, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Pandemonioum like effects. Pretty cool.
You should actually end up with 16 dinosaurs.
Original enters, triggers Forerunner, Original is enraged makes a token.
Token enters, triggers Forerunner. Original and Copy 1 both enrage, to make 2 copies.
Both copies trigger Forerunner. First Forerunner ability resolves, Forerunner dies, Original and 3 copies and enraged, so make four tokens.
Second Forerunner ability resolves, Original and 7 copies and enraged, so makes 8 more tokens.
There we go. One original Polyraptor and 15 copies, unless I'm missing anything.
Edit - My maths is off. I mistakenly had the two tokens entering at the same time, which of course they don't.
Either way, 7 or 8 5/5 creatures should be more than enough.
Let us not consider what would happen if we had played Anointed Procession in between the Forerunner and the Polyraptor.
Azor did said "each" in his text box.
Original Zendikar block was power creeped like hell, it's not a good comparison, besides Azor serves a different color and a different purpose.
You're playing W/U, contempt is counter-fodder. There's also Grand Abolisher.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Forerunner on field, cast Polly1.
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1 and Forerunner take 1 damage.
Polly1's enrage triggers, create Polly2.
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, Polly2, and Forerunner take 1 damage. Polly1 has now taken 2, as has Forerunner.
Polly1's and Polly2's enrage triggers, putting create Polly3 and create Polly4 on stack.
Polly4 gets created (Polly3 still hasn't! It's still on stack).
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, 2, and 4 enrage triggers (and Forerunner dies), stacking triggers to create Polly5, Polly6, and Polly7.
Polly7 is created
Polly6 is created
Polly5 is created
Then, finally, Polly3 is created.
EDIT:
BUT! Forerunner's trigger is OPTIONAL. Whups. So the player could choose not to have Forerunner trigger on Polly3 landing and wait til Polly4 lands. Then you would get 8. If forerunner's trigger was mandatory it would be 7.
The last trigger from the Forerunner will resolve no problem.
But how do you get the original dying? It is a 5/5 that should end up with four damage marked on it? 1 damage from Original entering, 1 damage from first token entering, 2 damage from the next two tokens entering. But by this point the Forerunner, who is just a 1/3 is dead, so won't be triggering anymore.
I probably miscounted, which should teach me not to try and do such things while I am at work...on the phone...resolving someone's computer-based problem.
You'd make six. I'd make eight with the same investment.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Yes, please post your work (and the question) I'm not sure what "combo" this is
I mean literally all it takes to stop the infinite triggers drawing the game is High Market or another simple sac outlet, the point is while the combo technically draws the game its so easy to turn into a win or at least turn into infinite creatures it could very easily be useful
The combo was simply playing Polyraptor while you have a Forerunner of the Empire out (which is easy to asssemble because Forerunner tutors the Polyraptor to the top of your deck for you!). The Forerunner can deal 1 damage to all creatures when a Dinosaur enters the battlefield, and Polyraptors make copies of themselves when they get damaged; the copies entering the battlefield would in turn trigger the Forerunner again...
I posted it above (#61) though I suspect the poster you replied to made the same initial mistake I did... thinking Forerunner's "When a dinosaur enters the battlefield under your control, deal 1 damage to each creature" trigger was mandatory. If it was mandatory, playing a Polyraptor with a Forerunner out would result in 7 Polyraptors. Because Forerunner is a 'may' trigger, choosing not to have it fire the third time it could (allowing it to survive and fire on the fourth trigger instead, when there's one more Polyraptor in play) results in getting 8.
If trigger was mandatory:
Forerunner on field, cast Polly1.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1 and Forerunner take 1 damage.
Polly1's enrage triggers, create Polly2.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, Polly2, and Forerunner take 1 damage. Polly1 has now taken 2, as has Forerunner.
Polly1's and Polly2's enrage triggers, putting create Polly3 and create Polly4 on stack.
Polly4 gets created (Polly3 still hasn't! It's still on stack).
Forerunner triggers, you deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, 2, and 4 enrage triggers (and Forerunner dies), stacking triggers to create Polly5, Polly6, and Polly7.
Polly7 is created
Polly6 is created
Polly5 is created
Then, finally, Polly3 is created.
Since trigger is optional, a preferable sequence goes:
Forerunner on field, cast Polly1.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1 and Forerunner take 1 damage.
Polly1's enrage triggers, create Polly2.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, Polly2, and Forerunner take 1 damage. Polly1 has now taken 2, as has Forerunner.
Polly1's and Polly2's enrage triggers, putting create Polly3 and create Polly4 on stack.
Polly4 gets created (Polly3 still hasn't! It's still on stack).
Forerunner triggers, you DECLINE to have Forerunner deal 1 damage to each creature.
Polly3 gets created.
Forerunner triggers, deals 1 damage to each creature.
Polly1, 2, 3 and 4 enrage triggers (and Forerunner dies), stacking triggers to create Polly5, Polly6, Polly7, Polly8.
Polly8 is created
Polly7 is created
Polly6 is created
Polly5 is created
But then sees Polyraptor ability
Why you little, I get furious when people Troll
But anyway
Infinite = rite of passage and Forerunner of the Empire or just Aether Flash
Then all you need is one of these to not cause a draw
Goblin Bombardment also works, literally any sac outlet or non-damage removal spell and haste. Its really not hard to turn infinite creatures into an instant win and this seems like a pretty easy way to get infinite creatures
"Easy" is pretty relative. I mean, this creature costs *8 mana*. There exist 2-card infinite-creature combos that cost far less that should, theoretically, be easier.
I mean sure this is probably worse than any Kiki-Jiki combo but Kiki-Jiki is a completely busted card, If Wizards is actually doing their job right we will likely never see a card that stupid ever again
Wizards doing their job right and preventing infinite creature combo? See Felidar Guardian.
The eight mana thing just seems bad. There could be some fun combos/gimmicks, but it seems like a lot of work to make a card that is already 8 mana wok (did I mention it is 8 mana).
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender